Talk:Gamergate (harassment campaign)/Archive 59

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Gjoni, Depression Quest and BLP, again

I suppose I must again commence the Sisyphean task of the matter of Gjoni, Depression Quest, Kotaku etc. The text on this keeps changing so many times that it's impossible to keep track. Let me first lay out some facts:

Gjoni wrote "The Zoe Post". The post never mentions Depression Quest, never mentions a review; and it sure as hell doesn't mention a review of Depression Quest. In the post, there was a typo up for a while, which said "March" instead of "May". Some people on 4chan (and elsewhere) read the initial post, noticed the name "Kotaku" and made the (incorrect) inference about the favourable reviews for sex. This inference was debunked very early, and very definitively. Gjoni later corrected this typo, and explicitly disavowed this inference.

Absolutely zero sources disagree with these facts, because they're all true.

Now, we come to the nub of the matter: how to describe what happened? Some sources say that Gjoni himself "implied" (or the even more weasel-wordy "seemed to imply") the allegation of favourable reviews for sex. I am sure you can find plenty of sources stating this (some of them are linked in the WP article). There are also plenty of sources which state that the inference was drawn by people who read the post -- without assigning any intent to Gjoni (example, example), example).

IMO: here's what we should do. We should keep BLP in mind. To ascribe intent to Gjoni (implied or otherwise) is neither a good idea, nor is it even required. Shit happened, whether or not Gjoni intended it. The important thing is to note that shit happened, not to vilify Gjoni. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 04:51, 28 July 2018 (UTC)

It's simply not accurate to say it that this was done 'incorrectly', which is a nonbinary proposition. It is flatly and completely wrong, so 'false' is the better wording. PeterTheFourth (talk) 07:29, 28 July 2018 (UTC)

Let me clarify: this section is not about one word. I am objecting to this whole paragraph:

The event that would come to be known as Gamergate began in 2014 as a personal attack on Quinn and her sex life, incited by a blog post by Quinn's former boyfriend Eron Gjoni. Called the "Zoe Post", it was a lengthy, detailed account of their relationship and breakup that included copies of personal chat logs, emails, and text messages. The blog falsely implied that Quinn had gotten a favorable review of Depression Quest because of her sexual relationship with Nathan Grayson, a video-game reviewer for the website Kotaku. Grayson never actually reviewed Quinn's games, and Grayson's only article mentioning her was published before their relationship began. Gjoni later updated his blog post to acknowledge this, saying that a typographical error was to blame for the insinuation. Nonetheless, a link to the blog posted on 4chan, where many participants had previously been highly critical of Depression Quest, led to renewed attacks on Quinn.

It strongly ascribes malicious intent to Gjoni. I would prefer the text which was there earlier, which was changed for reasons unknown to me:

In August 2014, Eron Gjoni, Quinn's former boyfriend, published the "Zoe Post", a 9,425-word blog post that quoted from personal chat logs, emails, and text messages to describe their relationship. The post, described as "a rambling online essay" in The New York Times, complained, among other things, that Quinn entered a romantic relationship with Nathan Grayson, a journalist for the Gawker Media video game website Kotaku. The post was linked on 4chan, where some erroneously claimed the relationship had induced Grayson to publish a favorable review of Depression Quest. Grayson had never reviewed Quinn's games and Grayson's only article for Kotaku mentioning her was published before their relationship began. Gjoni later updated his blog post to acknowledge this.

. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 08:13, 28 July 2018 (UTC)

Gjoni claimed that Grayson wrote a favorable review. It's pretty clear that the only thing it could reasonably be was _Depression Quest_; this fact comes up over and over in the articles that debunk the favorable review nonsense. "Incorrect" implies merely factually wrong. "False" implies bias. And the entire Zoe Post was an exhibition of Gjoni's animus and bias. -- ForbiddenRocky (talk) 17:41, 28 July 2018 (UTC)

No, you're flat out wrong. Have you even read the post? Read what I wrote above: the post never mentions a review, and sure as hell never mentions a review of Depression Quest, let alone one written by Grayson. Absolutely zero sources say that Gjoni "claimed that Grayson wrote a favorable review". (since there's a ton written on this topic, probably you can find some source which actually repeats this mistaken view, but the vast majority of the sources do not say this). Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 01:09, 29 July 2018 (UTC)

I'm certain you'll be able to provide us with reliable sources that support your point of view.--Jorm (talk) 01:19, 29 July 2018 (UTC)

Oblique references, learn how they are used. I suggest you read up about "5 guys burgers and fries". -- 01:23, 29 July 2018 (UTC — Preceding unsigned comment added by ForbiddenRocky (talk • contribs)

Do people even read what I write, or am I totally wasting my time? Gjoni never made any claim about reviews or whatever. There exist sources saying that he "implied" (what you call "oblique references"). There are also plenty of sources who do not say that Gjoni "implied".

What is important is what Gjoni's readers inferred, not what he may or may not have implied. If 4chan didn't exist, it would have made no difference whether or not Gjoni "implied" anything. Gjoni's intent is irrelevant to the issue. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 03:33, 29 July 2018 (UTC)

Actually, somebody implying something is an active act. Some sources not mentioning this does not mean it didn't happen. PeterTheFourth (talk) 03:42, 29 July 2018 (UTC)

Yes, when you say someone is acting with malice, you better have damn good reasons for saying so. Plenty of sources did not make this leap, but the passage in the WP article does.

Why are people even ascribing malicious intent to Gjoni? Why does every tragedy need a villain? Would it not be a tragedy otherwise? Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 04:01, 29 July 2018 (UTC)

It blows my mind that people are still trying to trot out the "no malicious intent/it's about ethics in journalism/criticism is not harassment" arguments even today.--Jorm (talk) 04:05, 29 July 2018 (UTC)

I have yet to read a single comment of yours which adds anything except ignorant snark. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 04:26, 29 July 2018 (UTC)

@Kingsindian: Yikes. PeterTheFourth (talk) 04:15, 29 July 2018 (UTC)

The RS supports the text. That some editors refuse to acknowledge that which is obvious, and well supported, is not grounds for weasel wording what Gjoni did. -- ForbiddenRocky (talk) 06:38, 29 July 2018 (UTC)