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August 22

are educational institutions required to file suspicious activity reports under the Bank Secrecy Act?

If a university bursar accepts tuition payments in cash, would they file an SAR for payment of tuition in cash under 10,000 but above 5,000 in the US? 63.159.208.9 (talk) 07:31, 22 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Is a university a financial institution? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:06, 22 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

the diver who died in the thai cave rescue

In the recent Thai cave rescue, one diver died [1]. How did this happen? Is scuba diving particularly dangerous? It sounds like, by rights, he must have run out of air in his tank, except that this is surely impossible, with basic precautions. Is it most likely the water pressure that causes this? Or a pre-existing illness? IBE (talk) 10:33, 22 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Lack of air [2]. It looks like he was above ground, not in the water. It's unclear why he wasn't wearing some form of oxygen supply. --Viennese Waltz 10:39, 22 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

That says, "Kunan became unconscious while making the return journey to 'chamber three', around 1.5km inside the cave. A diving buddy tried to revive him but was unsuccessful." In other words, he was underwater at the time, between chambers. --76.69.47.228 (talk) 17:19, 22 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

We have an article on Cave diving. It is very dangerous; see [3] and [4] for example. --Xuxl (talk) 13:19, 22 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Reports were that he overexerted himself in an earlier part of the dive, so he used up his oxygen supply too fast. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 20:36, 22 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Is scuba diving particularly dangerous? A big yes on that. That's why you need training before attempting it. And diving in confined spaces is more dangerous still. It's easy to forget about your oxygen supply when you're under a lot of stress, as in a difficult dive. And as noted, getting stressed means you use up your oxygen more quickly! It's an environment we aren't designed for. This is why many experts were worried about the rescue plan. Fortunately it succeeded, apart from the aforementioned tragic death, which must be attributed to the divers' extreme skill and courage. --47.146.63.87 (talk) 06:42, 23 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

On the first caving course I went on, the instructor solemnly told us that all cave divers have long hair so that you can't see where they've had their brains removed. Caving is dangerous, if pushed to extremes. Scuba diving is dangerous. Scuba diving in a cave is very dangerous. Alansplodge (talk) 08:11, 23 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the interesting replies, to all. @76.69.47.228:: why do you say he was underwater? The diagram in Viennese Waltz's article showed that there was air in the chamber. This also sounds more plausible than simply running out of air in someone's tank, which (one would think) merely requires checking the air levels, plus general competence as a scuba diver. IBE (talk) 15:05, 23 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

IBE, see Thai PBS - Retired SEAL member dies in Tham Luang rescue operation: "He left the third chamber at 8.37pm. After delivering the air tanks to the T-junction and while returning to the third chamber, he became unconscious while under water. His diving mates performed a cardiopulmonary resuscitation (CPR) on him but he remained unconscious. Saman was brought to the third chamber where he underwent another round of first-aid treatment but the attempt to save his life was not successful. He was pronounced dead at about 1 am on Friday". This is the reference used in our Tham Luang cave rescue article. Alansplodge (talk) 18:09, 23 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, same as the original article I linked, but somehow I just missed that ;(. So he was underwater, was he wearing scuba gear? Sounds like a dumb question, but VW says "It's unclear why he wasn't wearing some form of oxygen supply". So I'm not totally clear on that, for he could have been swimming unaided through a small underwater section of the cave (perhaps through machismo). I'll call that unlikely just for the moment. So then it sounds like he simply ran out of air in his tanks. Is this not rather strange? IBE (talk) 19:57, 23 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, as I understand it, he just had too little in his own tank [5].Yes, perhaps a bit strange, as he was so experienced. But in emergency situations like that volunteers will tend to push themselves more and take greater risks. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:21, 23 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

However, bear in mind that all of these reports were published directly after the event. Presumably there will be an inquest - there is more than one cause of unconsciousness. Alansplodge (talk) 22:30, 23 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know what the procedure is in Thailand, but I imagine most of the evidence at an inquest would come from the fellow diver who was with Kunan and who tried to revive him. I suspect he will have known what to look for and may well have checked Kunan's cylinder. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:18, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

That and the autopsy. Alansplodge (talk) 17:11, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

If there was or is one? Martinevans123 (talk) 17:28, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Sovereign bolivar

I noticed that the obverses of the Sovereign Bolivar banknotes are oriented (flipped) vertically rather than horizontally. Is this the only modern currency with such flipping? Thanks. 212.180.235.46 (talk) 13:02, 22 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

See Banknote#Vertical orientation for more examples. --Jayron 32 13:20, 22 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

If only the Venezuelan economy could be flipped so easily. One million percent inflation doesn't sound like much fun. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:26, 22 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

There's an interesting way that Brazil handled a similar financial crisis 25 years ago by using a virtual currency to curb runaway inflation; it would be interesting to see it applied in Venezuela and Zimbabwe and other places with similar problems. See Plano Real and Unidade real de valor. --Jayron 32 13:31, 22 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

That's interesting. Perhaps the majority of Venezuelans will just flee across the border to Brazil instead? Not sure how close Venezuela is getting to Hyperinflation in the Weimar Republic, but I'm surprised it's not been given an WP:ITN nomination yet. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:37, 22 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It has. HiLo48 (talk) 10:04, 23 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Oh well, it lasted three days. Will the currency last much longer? Martinevans123 (talk) 10:25, 23 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The Venezuelan crisis has been ongoing for quite some time. ITN would require something new about it going on, not just "the crisis still continues". Something like Maduro resigning. Cambalachero (talk) 21:14, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Descriptor?

I'm finding the collective term for color, shape, size, and genre. I was thinking of 'descriptor'. What do you think and is there's more precise term to describe the all four? Planet Star 22:44, 22 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I'd go with "property". › Mortee _talk 22:46, 22 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Or possibly "classification". It might help if you explained the context - where are you going to be using whatever word you find? › Mortee _talk 01:11, 23 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

PlanetStar, can you specify what you mean by genre in this context? It seems to me to sit oddly with the other three parameters.

If 'movement' were to be substituted for 'genre', a possible answer would be 'jizz', a term used by birdwatchers to describe the impression given by the overall combination of these factors, which may enable an experienced birdwatcher to identify the species of a glimpsed bird when no single defining characteristic has been clearly seen. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.212.99.189 (talk) 23:06, 22 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I'm talking film genre, music genre --Planet Star 23:57, 22 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

What shapes do films and music have? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:41, 23 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I notice that you write "I'm finding the collective term for color, shape, size, and genre." Do you mean you are "looking for" the collective term for color, shape, size, and genre? Why do you say that you are "finding" it? Or is this a use of "finding" that I am not aware of? Does "finding" mean "seeking"? I don't think there is a term covering "color, shape, size, and genre". Loosely, you could refer to all of these aspects of an entity as "values", (or "properties", as suggested above by User:Mortee). But you would have to make clear that your usage of "values" refers to "color, shape, size, and genre." Bus stop (talk) 12:38, 23 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Attribute. Gandalf61 (talk) 14:46, 23 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I'll go with that. Planet Star 02:56, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

August 23

Hitler 's abilities as a strategic military commander

Do we have an article about this? Any ideas about reliable articles on the subject I can read online? --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 12:12, 23 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Hitler as Military Commander by John Strawson, is available cheaply on Amazon (hardback used from £0.01 apparently). Hitler: Military Commander by Rupert Matthews has a lengthy preview on Google Books. I also found this thesis: A MILITARY LEADERSHIP ANALYSIS OF ADOLF HITLER . Alansplodge (talk) 12:45, 23 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The famous military historian John Keegan wrote an interesting book "The Mask of Command", comparing Alexander the Great, the Duke of Wellington, Ulysses S. Grant, and Adolf Hitler. Hitler was looking pretty good early in the war (down to mid-1940), when most of his invasions encountered relatively little resistance. When his military forces encountered fiercer opposition, Hitler didn't do as well... AnonMoos (talk) 13:25, 23 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Really interesting thanks. Our article on Battle of Kursk, which is what led me to the question, is quite damning about Hitler's interference, comparing it unfavourably with Stalin leaving things to his generals. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 15:13, 23 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This paper (p. 30) quotes General Hans Speidel: "[Hitler] had a certain instinct for operational problems, but lacked the thorough training [which] enables a [commander] to accept considerable risk in an operation, because he knows he can master [it]". Alansplodge (talk) 15:15, 23 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Surely Hitler's First Big Mistake (of a series) was mid-1940, precisely when there was little resistance: the Fuhrer Halt which made Dunkirk possible. Andy Dingley (talk) 15:32, 23 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Although that was atypical of Hitler, since he seems to have been following the advice of his commanders (albeit not the ones who were actually on the battlefield). The exact decision process is still debated, but it seems to have been initiated by Gerd von Rundstedt, who was concerned that Army Group A's armour would become depleted due to lake of maintenance and that their over-extended lines-of-communication were vulnerable to Allied counterattack. Cassel and Hazebrouck 1940: France and Flanders Campaign (pp. 26-27) by Jerry Murland calls the decision "realistic". Alansplodge (talk) 17:46, 23 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

"[Hitler] had a certain instinct for operational problems, but lacked the thorough training" Not much of a surprise. He was a mere Gefreiter in World War I and had no experience in leading operations. But he was placed in charge of the field marshals and generals in World War II. Not a recipe for success. Dimadick (talk) 18:12, 23 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

"Hitler is a jumped-up Bohemian corporal" according to Paul von Hindenburg. The success in the Battle of France led Hitler to believe that he was a military genius, when his actual role had only been to back the right horse, Heinz Guderian against the wishes of his more traditionally-minded high command. The outcome of the Fuhrer Halt Order may have convinced him that listening to sound professional advice was a bad idea and that he should trust his own intuition. Alansplodge (talk) 09:30, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The second para of Adolf Hitler#Leadership style provides a summary of recent views on the topic, along with references. Recent works in this field are much better than older ones given that the historiography has changed considerably over the last 20 years (with modern historians now dismissing the post-war claims of German generals that Hitler was to blame for all Germany's defeats while they were blameless and powerless). As I understand it, the general view of modern historians is that while Hitler was doomed to defeat because he could never achieve his war aims (the conquest of Europe and genocidal extermination of much of its population), his performance as a military commander was uneven across the war. The generals now get lashings of criticism for their part in Germany's defeat as well. Nick-D (talk) 07:06, 25 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

What if Turnbull refused to hold a spill?

Dear All,

I, a Brit, have been getting news reports lately of the Australian Liberal Party's latest leadership battles. As I understand it the PM, Malcolm Turnbull, is under pressure from internal rivals. According to Wikipedia pages on previous leadership elections (or 'spills', which is definitely a cooler name for them) the rules are as follows:

1. Any Liberal MP/Senator can propose a spill, any other member can second it*;

2. The PM/Party Leader must then hold a meeting to discuss the spill;

3. If they feel there is sufficient support for the spill at the meeting then they hold a vote;

4. If they win the vote they stay, if not there is a leadership election to replace them (which they can run in).

(I'm not clear exactly when the seconding happens, it may be at the meeting).

My question is this: Have I misunderstood the rules? And if not, does this not allow a leader to simply refuse to allow a leadership vote (by exercising their judgement at point #3)? If this is possible, has it ever been tried and what mechanism exists to overcome it?

Sorry if I've missed something obvious, as mentioned above I'm not familiar with Aussie politics. 165.225.88.86 (talk) 12:52, 23 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I suspect this would be more a matter of internal party rules rather than anything constitutional. Australia's Labor Party went through similar leadership dramas a decade ago, finally realised the political damage they had caused, and subsequently changed its rules to make leadership challenges more difficult. Sorry, don't know the details. It's a good question though. HiLo48 (talk) 00:50, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

See 1975 Australian constitutional crisis when Prime Minister Gough Whitlam refused to hold an election. While that is not the same set of circumstances as the current case, it does show the power that the Governor General wields in being able to remove a Prime Minister, and is probably the most notable example of the checks and balances built into the Westminster style of government. Akld guy (talk) 02:49, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It doesn't seem to me anything like that is necessary. First let's remember in the 1975 case, the government had not lost an explicit motion of no confidence in the house of representatives. They were just unable to get their budget passed in the Senate. Whitlam felt calling a half senate election to try and break the deadlock was an acceptable course of action, Kerr felt it was not. The situation likely to arise in this case would seem to be different. If the leader refuses to resign and their MPs want them out, they always have the option of supporting an explicit Motion of no confidence#Australia which is after all the classic way to get rid of a PM in most Westminster style governments. Assuming the party have a more than one seat majority and all their MPs want this, it's not really something the PM has any real ability to block. Well okay I'm not an expert on how motions come up in the Australian house but I assume it's the speaker not the PM which control them. In this case, since the party doesn't have a majority theoretically the PM could hang around despite everyone else in their party not wanting them but realistically if it did happen Labor at a minimum would support it like they did with the one a few days ago. Of course what happens after may get a little complicated and where the Governor General's reserve power could come in to play. The PM could try and dissolve the house and call for an early election (actually whether before or after they lose the no confidence motion). The Governor General, if they are aware that the only reason it came to this is because the PM was refusing to resign even though their whole party wanted them gone, may refuse to do so and instead invite whoever will be able to command the confidence of the house to form a new government. If the Liberals really have nothing in their party to force out a leader who refuses to resign, the MPs (and Senators) have the option of resigning from the party. Australia has no legislation preventing party switching#Australia AFAIK. Now these MPs would need to secure the support of the Nationals and the others willing to support the Coalition government so it's complicated although there's always a risk that the later could decide 'screw this, let's just have an election' or 'Labor would be better than this shit' anyway even if it happens entirely within the normal Liberal process. Nil Einne (talk) 05:06, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

P.S. I missed that you were only using the 1975 case as an example of the checks and balances so the initial part of my response doesn't address what you said so well. But my wider point is similar to HiLo48's namely that this internal party stuff is in many ways an aside to the Westminster system especially in countries without MMP or something that makes a clearer link between a party and the voter. While it's developed as a key part in the modern era, people are still voting for specific MPs and the stuff in parliament (and that the government does) is what matters. The internal party stuff is generally largely constitutionally irrelevant. If the MPs aren't happy with how their party rules handle the selection of leaders, they can simply resign and in many ways this isn't so much a 'check and balance' but more that having parties isn't an explicit requirement. Forcing out an unwanted PM is a 'check and balance' although on of the most basic one. And practically, ignoring party requests are one thing; ignoring that you're going to lose (or have lost) a motion of no confidence is another. Nil Einne (talk) 05:35, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

One part of the OPs question was, "...does this not allow a leader to simply refuse to allow a leadership vote (by exercising their judgement at point #3)? If this is possible, has it ever been tried and what mechanism exists to overcome it?"

My answer was intended to convey, that, yes it has been tried, and the mechanism to overcome it was the power of the governor general to remove the prime minister. I'm not suggesting for one moment that the current situation will degenerate to that level of intervention, but the power to remove still exists if it's ever necessary. Akld guy (talk) 05:59, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

But as I understand it, Whitlam was refusing to hold a general election rather than an internal party vote, the latter being beyond the purview of the Governor General. Alansplodge (talk) 12:42, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The end result of such an unresolved breach in the party room would be the loss of a no-confidence vote. If the prime minister let things go to such an extreme, I suspect the Governor-General is going to let an election decide things, and if the Liberals do not have their leadership in order, it would be their own responsibility.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:05, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

But the OP asked what would happen if the prime minister refused to allow an election. Scroll up to where he/she said "My question is this:" and read what they then said. We should stick to answering question(s) as posed. Akld guy (talk) 21:50, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I don't read it the same way you do. I read it as relating to spills.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:20, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

And if the PM refused to allow a spill? What happens, as asked by the OP? Wouldn't the government become paralysed by internal conflict, with the only option being dismissal by the governor general? Akld guy (talk) 01:19, 25 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, it would seem likely the government would become paralysed by internal conflict. There could be many paths from there. The party could split. That's been suggested as a possibility in the Australian situation, and things are not over yet. A party split could lead to a motion of no-confidence in the Prime Minister in the House. This might pass or fail. Many possibilities..... HiLo48 (talk) 01:45, 25 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

For-profit hospitals and abortion: Are the big hospital companies abortion providers?

Companies like Hospital Corporation of America and Community Health Systems own many hospitals of various sizes, and I was wondering, how would one know if these companies own facilities that perform abortions without spending hours researching the issue? What percentage of these companies profit likely comes from such procedures? 66.192.139.114 (talk) 14:04, 23 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The OP's IP address 66.192.139.114 is registered to Hospital Corporation of America, an American for-profit manager of 177 hospitals and 119 free-standing surgery centers in the United States and United Kingdom. In the USA, Planned Parenthood (PPFA) is the largest single provider of reproductive health services, including abortion. In their 2014 Annual Report, PPFA reported seeing over 2.5 million patients in over 4 million clinical visits and performing a total of nearly 9.5 million discrete services including 324,000 abortions. Its combined annual revenue is US$1.3 billion (including approximately US$530 million in government funding such as Medicaid reimbursements). One can seek further information at the PPFA website that provides downloadable financial reports. DroneB (talk) 19:17, 23 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The first hit of an obvious google search[6] was a worldnetdaily article saying HCA did abortions in 2002 and there was a controversy about Bill Frist's financial involvement at that time.[7] I leave RS evaluation and further google searches to you, but this doesn't seem hard. 173.228.123.166 (talk) 06:14, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

August 24

Pre-decimal British currency denominations abbrev.

They were named after old roman currency at least in the abbreviations. How come? Was there a continuity there or did some fan of Ancient Rome start the practice? Temerarius (talk) 01:31, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Continuity, see £sd.--Wehwalt (talk) 01:39, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

thank you, somehow I’ve never found that page. Although it doesn’t exactly speak for continuity. And it contradicts itself on a matter of pronunciation. Surely it’s happeny rather than hay-penny? Temerarius (talk) 03:36, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I've only ever heard hay-penny, but of course that's only anecdotal. › Mortee _talk 04:23, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

[Edit Conflict] As an actual coin they seem to have been (re-?)introduced around 1100, but before then pennies (whatever they were called) were literally cut in half or quarters to provide smaller change, and those halves were, surely, referred to by the same name.

According to the actual History of the halfpenny article it was pronounced "/ˈheɪpəni/ HAY-pə-nee" (I'm not seeing "hay-penny" anywhere). Without resorting to IPA, which I'm not fluent with and you may not be either, the best representation this elderly Brit (who of course used them from around 1960) can suggest is "HAIYP-knee" (with the "H" being dropped in many registers).

The name "penny" (from Old English "peni") is of course Germanic and has close cognates in other Germanic languages. It seems likely that the continuity of the abbreviation (and possibly the actual name) "d" for "denarius", plus of course "L" and "s", would have been preserved by those literate/numerate in Latin, who continued to be a presence in Great Britain after the supposed "departure of the Romans in 410", which was a great deal more complicated and less complete that popularised history suggests. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.121.162.183 (talk) 04:49, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The northern pronunciation was often shortened to two syllables /ˈheɪpnɪ/, like HAIYP-knee but with a shorter vowel at the end. Dbfirs 06:04, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

That's the pronunciation I know too (southern England here) – either two or three syllables, just as you say, but if it's three it's definitely a schwa for the e (hay-puh-nee, not hay-penn-ee). (My earlier comment was only about the first syllable, which is "hay" not "hap") › Mortee _talk 11:50, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Very old joke - a gorilla walks into a shop to buy a newspaper - he puts a pile of change on the counter - the shopkeeper says "that's not enough - you still owe me a penny" - the gorilla says "I haven't got a penny - but I have got two ape knees" (geddit ?) Gandalf61 (talk) 08:38, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The usual spelling of the abbreviated form of halfpenny was ha'penny, as in "If you haven't got a penny, a ha'penny will do". The other contraction used was for a a quantity equal in value to a halfpenny, a halfpenny worth or ha'p'orth. By my day, again from the early 1960's, you couldn't by much for a ha'penny, and it was only used as a jocular insult; "you daft ha'p'orth". I do remember my mother ordering "six penn'orth of chips" in the chip shop, i,e, 6d worth of chips. Alansplodge (talk) 09:08, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I'd forgotten that songs. Thanks for the reminder! › Mortee _talk 11:50, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks to inflation, things are different these days. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:51, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Denarius inflation: 33 AD: ~43,450 seconds of hard labor. 2018: 1.9 seconds of sedentary minimum wage. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 03:31, 25 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Pinning down the early use of the "d" abbreviation has proved tricky. Mind the Pennies …: Money and its Use in Early Medieval Europe says: "Monasteries and aristocratic households provided anchors of wealth and demand which stimulated a more broadly based core of monetary exchanges". Both these institutions would have kept their financial records in Latin - "Rentals and accounts from landed estates are rare in English before the beginning of the sixteenth century" according to Languages used in medieval documents. Alansplodge (talk) 12:25, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Manafort pardon

There is much talk in the air about a possible pardon by President Trump for Paul Manafort, who was convicted on Tuesday on eight felony counts. A second trial is scheduled for next month on several additional charges. Suppose Mr. Trump pardoned him, say, tomorrow, for his current crimes. Would he still have to go to trial again and, if convicted, be pardoned again? --Halcatalyst (talk) 14:07, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

That would depend on how it's worded. He could try to use the Ford "pre-emptive" pardon of Nixon, who had not been charged with a crime. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:44, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

One important caveat about a pardon: Accepting a pardon is tantamount to a guilty plea. In order to accept a pardon, you have to admit you are guilty of the crime you are being pardoned for. Also, a presidential pardon only applies to criminal penalties for a crime, it does not prevent (and can even exacerbate) civil suits related to the crimes, for example a person who suffered financial damages from Manafort could still sue him for damages, and the pardon itself is evidence that he committed the act which caused the damages. For those reasons, it may not be wise necessarily to accept a pardon before a conviction. In civil cases, the federal government itself can be the plaintiff, so he could still be sued by them. See here, to wit "the president cannot pardon a person for violations of any federal civil laws" --Jayron 32 14:59, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Per Federal pardons in the United States, a pardon will not erase or expunge the record of that conviction. Therefore, even if a person is granted a pardon, they must still disclose their conviction on any form where such information is required, although they may also disclose the fact that they received a pardon. So based on that, even with a pre-emptive pardon Manafort can be tried, he just wouldn't have to serve his sentence. Nothing really in the article about "pre-emptive" pardons though which seems like an oversight. Regards So Why 15:01, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It is a bit less clear if one does not take "pardon" strictly. Per the same article, the powers of commutation or amnesty do not necessarily require acceptance or impute guilt. In that article, amnesties, the Ford-Nixon pardon and the turkey are pre-emptive.John Z (talk) 19:05, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

In the Nixon matter, he issued as vague a statement of regret on being pardoned for all federal crimes he might have committed while president, as could be negotiated between his lawyers and Ford's. I am sure that Manafort's lawyers could easily draft a statement that would accept a pardon while admitting nothing useful. And I'm dubious any federal court would sustain an indictment against a presidential pardon that is clearly intended to pardon the conduct in question, whether or not imprisonment is at stake.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:17, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The issue in Burdick v. United States was whether Burdick could maintain his privilege against self-incrimination, and therefore refuse to testify, by refusing a pardon. The court said he could. The bit about acceptance of guilt was a bit of a side issue; our article says Legal scholars have questioned whether that portion of Burdick is meaningful or merely dicta.

Since many pardons, at least at the state level, are based on factual innocence (or at least the executive's opinion that factual guilt was not adequately proved), I think it's a bit hard to maintain a consistent view that acceptance of a pardon implies admission of guilt in all cases, even if it suited Ford's conscience to think so. --Trovatore (talk) 19:35, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Rejecting an ambassador

Is there a precedent in history, or any provision in diplomatic law/conventions, of a country rejecting a particular ambassador from a country with which it has otherwise normal diplomatic relations? What happens if the government of Country A says; "We're sorry Country B, we regretfully cannot accept Mr X as your ambassador to us because he (Mr X) is known for having a negative attitude towards our country, please send someone else"? Does such a situation create a huge crisis or is there a mechanism for dealing with the matter without too much fuss? Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 20:55, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

See Persona non grata.--William Thweatt ^Talk^Contribs 21:11, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It has happened from time to time. This is why the whole nomination process of ambassadors is kept confidential. Whether to make a fuss or not, depends on the mood of the 2 governments involved. "The appointment of an ambassador is subject to the receiving country accepting the nominated individual, conveyed through an agrément. Under a customary procedure, codified in the Vienna Convention of 1961, the sending state forwards the name and biodata of the ambassador-designate to the receiving state. Usually within several weeks, the latter conveys approval or agrément, after an internal processing that usually includes the formal assent by the head of state. Rejection of a nomination is rare; it may occur if for instance the individual is perceived to have a background that renders him or her exceptionally unfit, from the perspective of the receiving state. This might happen if he is on record with views hostile to that country. Rejections are seldom made public. One US study notes that between 1910 and the late 1970s there have been three cases of failure by US envoys to obtain agrément." ( https://books.google.com/books?id=AEVu5vNbD_4C&pg=PA40 ) Here are some later examples: https://books.google.com/books?id=CiolDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA346 --Soman (talk) 21:16, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Horace Phillips (diplomat) was famously rejected for being Jewish, at a time when the Saudis basically weren't admitting Jews to their country (nor were they admitting blacks, except as hajj pilgrims)... AnonMoos (talk) 02:35, 25 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Other reasons for refusing agrément include the existence of a criminal record, allegations of participation in human rights violations, or simply holding dual nationality. It can also be done just to indicate that there is a serious disagreement between the two countries (i.e. we will not agree to your appointing anyone as ambassador until matter x is resolved). These types of disputes can last for years. --Xuxl (talk) 17:36, 25 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statistics on European immigration to Algeria

Does anyone know where I can find detailed statistics of European immigration to Algeria? Basically, I am thinking of statistics which show the number of European immigrants into Algeria by either year or decade.

I know that the pied-noir population in Algeria peaked at something like 15% in the early 20th century, but I want to see just how many Europeans immigrated to Algeria at various points in time between 1830 and 1962. Futurist110 (talk) 22:44, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

James McDougall's recent History of Algeria is good on the colonial period; it certainly doesn't have the detailed statistics itself, but if they're available I expect they'd be referenced in his notes. Unfortunately I don't have a copy hand. Henry ^Flower 07:51, 25 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

"As of the last census in Algeria, taken on 1 June 1960, there were 1,050,000 non-Muslim civilians (mostly Catholic, but including 130,000 Algerian Jews) in Algeria, 10 percent of the total population". From our Pied-noir article. Alansplodge (talk) 15:43, 25 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

"During the French colonial period (1830–1962), Algeria contained a large European population of 1.6 million who constituted 15.2% of the total population in 1962". From our Europeans in Algeria article.

Alansplodge (talk) 15:45, 25 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

A little more detail at The Making of Contemporary Algeria, 1830-1987 (p. 53) by Mahfoud Bennoune, which says: "The number of European settlers increased from 7,812 in 1833 to 984,031 in 1954". Alansplodge (talk) 15:53, 25 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The Cambridge Survey of World Migration (p. 35) gives:- 1841: 38,000, 1847: 110,000, 1856: 170,000, 1872: 260,000, 1882: 412,000, 1900: 630,000, 1936: 950,000. Alansplodge (talk) 16:06, 25 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for all of this information, you guys--especially Alansplodge! Futurist110 (talk) 19:26, 25 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Futurist110, don't ignore immigration of Europeans to the Carthaginian Empire and the Roman client states that followed it. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 13:45, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Pictish king

Who was the first Kings of the Picts to convert to Christianity?107.193.163.81 (talk) 22:47, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe Óengus II before 834, see Andrew_the_Apostle#Scotland.
Sleigh (talk) 23:42, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Probably much earlier than that since the indications are that the upper levels of Pictish society were converted from the 5th through to the 7th centuries, but I'm afraid the name of the first Christian Pictish king will never be known with certainty because of the sparseness of historical sources. See Christianisation of Scotland#Picts. See also our article on Bridei I, king of the Picts in the late 6th century, for some suggestion that he may have been a Christian. --Antiquary (talk) 08:17, 25 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

See also Christianity in Medieval Scotland#Early_Christianisation. More detail in The Picts: A History by Tim Clarkson. Alansplodge (talk) 15:03, 25 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Be careful to use only late modern sources; Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2009 June 22#Supposed early Scottish kings has a discussion about several Scottish histories of Scotland (most of them early modern period) that rest on highly problematic writings by George Buchanan and Hector Boece. Nyttend (talk) 02:19, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

August 25

Orders from the CofE on the subject of poor M

In Roy Jenkins' Asquith we read a letter from Lord Rosebery to H. H. Asquith in which Roseberry (then the Prime Minister) tells Asquith (Home Secretary) that he "received orders from the C of E on the subject of poor M on Friday afternoon". Why was Arnold Morley (then the Postmaster General) "poor M", and why was the Church of England writing to the PM about him? DuncanHill (talk) 17:15, 25 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps: "This was Arnold Morley [standing for election in Nottingham in 1895], Liberal, whose involvement in a scandal concerning bribery at the previous election had lost him much support". From Economic and Social Change in a MIdland Town: Victorian Nottingham 1815-1900 (p. 222). The Church of England feel it their duty to advise when misbehaving ministers ought to resign, Cecil Parkinson being the last that I can think of. Alansplodge (talk) 17:30, 25 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe this 1887 article is the "corruption" referred to above. It seems rather small beer. Alansplodge (talk) 11:56, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

August 26

Publication date of An Essay on the Nature and Immutability of Truth

When was An Essay on the Nature and Immutability of Truth published? Our article says 1771, and this is cited to the article on James Beattie by Patricia Kitcher in the second edition of The Cambridge Dictionary of Philosophy. However, Frederick Copleston states in the fifth volume of his A History of Philosophy that Beattie's work was published in 1770. Which of these dates is correct? FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 09:07, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

On the title page of the first edition here, you can see the date given as 1770. There were many later editions of course, so maybe Kitcher is referring to one of those (the second was in 1771). Henry ^Flower 10:10, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The edition years don't overlap - the third was 1772, the fifth 1774 and the sixth 1778. 86.131.234.217 (talk) 10:35, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Eleve Consul

What is a "eleve consul" [8]? I know what a Consul (representative) is.KAVEBEAR (talk) 19:00, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Élève is French for student, so élève-consuls could literally be students, like an intern in modern terms. But they might have more definite powers, more like a vice-consul or a deputy consul. Adam Bishop (talk) 19:16, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

That's correct, Dictionnaire manuel de diplomatie et de droit international public et privé , original edition: 1885. They acted as assistant to a consul under a statute equivalent to internship. --Askedonty (talk) 21:07, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Worth to be noted the author of the source above last is not a frenchman neither the edition is French - French was the lingua franca for diplomacy, and even though the style is a very pure of language the tone of the dictionary gives markedly heavier on protocols than would a comparable French source - of the era. --Askedonty (talk) 15:31, 28 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

August 27

Weimar republic post-inflationary wages, in currency

Does anyone have a source for the wages in the Weimar Republic after the inflationary crisis? I'm interested in 1929-1933. I've found sources giving them in percentage of adjusted 1918 wages and so on, but I just wanted an idea of what people earned in marks (currency), for context on how expensive quoted prices were. I realize that people earned widely varying amounts; I'm mostly interested in the less-well-off and the unemployed. Apologies is this is obvious and I've somehow missed it. HLHJ (talk) 02:44, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I found this about a general development of actual wages from 1929 onwards, although without any numbers in currency given. The german Wikipedia also has an article on average yearly wages and gives a number of 2.110 Reichsmark in 1929 for example. 85.16.162.137 (talk) 06:03, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you very much! That context improved the article no end. HLHJ (talk) 05:33, 28 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

young aristocrat carrying a cane?

In HPMOR (a Harry Potter fanfic novel), Lucius Malfoy is a powerful political figure who carries a cane with a silver snake (as in Slytherin) handle. That detail didn't seem too odd for a middle-aged British aristocrat-type despite his having no pronounced physical infirmities. Much is also made of his son Draco being the future Lord Malfoy. Later in the novel (spoiler), Lucius gets killed. In the sequel "Significant Digits",[9] Draco Malfoy is now Lord Malfoy and is in his twenties, and carries Lucius's old cane.

Question: is that detail realistic at all, someone in their 20s and in good shape, carrying a fancy cane without looking like a complete git? I mean by comparison to other aristocrats in such a milieu. Presumably to regular people they all look like gits whatever they do. Thanks.

173.228.123.166 (talk) 20:25, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

They were considered a "fashion accessory", rather than a walking stick -- sort of a vestigial sceptre.[10] In fiction, they often signify power and prestige; in those days, they didn't consider somebody with a cane a "cripple" or a "git". Didn't John Steed typically have a cane? 107.15.157.44 (talk) 22:27, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! That's about what I was asking. That link is excellent. I don't remember John Steed having a cane but ok, at least he was old enough that maybe he'd have wanted to lean on it once in a while even if he could walk without it. It just seemed incongruous for a 20-something athlete (Quiddich) to carry one. But in a formal setting I guess it can work. 173.228.123.166 (talk) 22:57, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

In addition to Steed, some of us older folk on the left side of the pond recall TV's Bat Masterson. Deor (talk) 14:57, 28 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Also look at swagger stick, for the military equivalent. Baritsu / Bartitsu wouldn't hurt either. Andy Dingley (talk) 23:01, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

P.s.: Steed's cane concealed a sword, ("saber" as he called it) -- as with his "brolly".[11] —107.15.157.44 (talk) 23:13, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

P.P.S. In 1961 (the debut of The Avengers) Patrick McNee was 39 years old, and presumably was playing John Steed as close to that age. The cane was hardly a necessity. - Nunh-huh 14:27, 28 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Google-Image "astaire puttin on the ritz" for a number of visuals. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:08, 28 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

File:Cedric VIllani.jpg

Cédric Villani can do as he likes.

I remember reading two news articles about Benjamin Disraeli giving a speech in parliament. One praised his statesmanlike speech on the Corn laws. The other was utterly outraged by him carrying the wrong sort of cane. And yellow gloves. And his waistcoat was loud or something and I forget what else. The speech hardly got a look-in. Aristocrats of the time lived in a society which had long had a reliable 10% return on investment, so associating yourself with the right people and not offending their tastes became very important. Those less dependent on the goodwill of others are freer to do as they please, which may mean dressing like Cédric Villani, or acting like a git. HLHJ (talk) 05:33, 28 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

There are numerous photographs of a young Winston Churchill pre WWI (probably aged in his late 20s or 30s) on his way to (or from) Parliament... he is dressed appropriately for the era (cut-a-way coat, top hat... and jauntily carrying a cane as a fashion accessory. It was a common accessory with upper class formal wear in the late Victorian and Edwardian era. Blueboar (talk) 15:12, 28 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I just looked up "git"; I always thought it meant "an obnoxious and overtly rude person", but Wiktionary disagrees and gives an unfortunate etymology, so apologies.

173.228.123.166, I do not believe that there exists a modern social milieu where one can carry such a cane in everyday life without being regarded as a bit old-fashioned and eccentric, even in the UK. There are also strict legal limits on carrying weapons. After Terry Pratchett was knighted, he was still not allowed to wear a sword, to his amusement and disappointment. HLHJ (talk) 00:59, 29 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

That usage of "git" comes up in the Monty Python "argument sketch". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:06, 29 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

HLHJ, I would certainly think that popular hiking trails in rugged mountainous terrain worldwide qualify as a "social milieu". The use of Walking sticks is common on such trails, and countless people use them frequently. I have owned and used several for decades. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 06:07, 29 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I can't believe no-one has mentioned Chris Eubank yet. He commonly carries a cane. Unlike the Malfoys, Eubank is subject to WP:BLP including on project pages, so careful what you say disparagingly about this quote from RS "The former world boxing champion is fine, and as ever dandy, in camel hair frock coat, sharply pointed designer boots and jeans that bear a striking resemblance to the jodhpurs that once accompanied his trademark monocle, cane and lisp." ([12]) --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 10:14, 29 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

August 28

An unidentifiable place described as Lensham

While campaigning for the United Kingdom general election, 1906, H. H. Asquith is described by Roy Jenkins as having spoken in the fortnight beginning on December 29th 1905 "at Sheffield, Huddersfield, Stockton-on-Tees, Oakham, Henley-on-Thames, Perth and an unidentifiable place described as Lensham". Can anyone identify Lensham? Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 14:07, 28 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Might it be Lenham? --Jayron 32 14:19, 28 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Lenham seems somewhat of a backwater compared to those other locations, too small to have been worth Asquith's delivering a campaign speech there. I wonder if it could be a misprint (in Jenkins' source) for Lewisham? {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.208.127.181 (talk) 15:59, 28 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Lenham does seem to be a backwater, and Lewisham seems too far south compared to the other places. It also seems an unlikely typo. The source would be Life of Herbert Henry Asquith, Lord Oxford and Asquith by J. A. Spender and Cyril Asquith. DuncanHill (talk) 16:38, 28 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Lewisham is not much further South than Henley on Thames --ColinFine (talk) 17:27, 28 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I cannot imagine that a Westminster MP, or any Londoner writing about one, would not be able to identify and spell "Lewisham". Do we know who his source is? There was a Lensham House, here, in Kentish Town, London, but I have no idea where it's named after. The Camden History Society might well know.

Henley-on-Thames is also a bit of a geographic outlier, especially if that was the order of the speeches! Lenham seems to have been in Maidstone parliamentary borough, which was a tight contest, so maybe he spoke there to reach the outlying voters: Maidstone (UK Parliament constituency)#Elections in the 1900s, see also description in article. Sheffield and Huddersfield also had tight races. Stockton-on-Tees didn't. Of course, which races were perceived as tight at this unidentified but presumably late point in the election might not correlate well with the end vote. HLHJ (talk) 02:14, 29 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I've just had a look through The Times Digital Archive and found accounts of his speaking at Sheffield (4 Jan), Huddersfield (8 Jan), Stockton (9 Jan), Perth (11 Jan), Oakham (15 Jan) and Henley (18 Jan), but nowhere else. I won't swear I haven't missed something, but might this Lensham be a "ghost", introduced into the list God knows how? You'll see that the dates of the known speeches don't really fit the description of them as being delivered in the fortnight beginning on December 29th, so I'm not sure the source is altogether reliable. --Antiquary (talk) 08:48, 29 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

If Jenkins, who researched meticulously, called it "unidentifiable", I'd be surprised if we could do any more than wildly speculate. For all we know, it might have been a surname (a speech in someone's home), a typo, a ghost inclusion or, I dunno, a joke. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 10:09, 29 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

With regard to my earlier suggestion of a misprint for Lewisham, consider the case of Brian Duppa, sometime Bishop of Winchester. Our article gives a reference (No 4) for stating his his birthplace to be Lewisham, but this work found on Google books prints it as "Lensham."

A few other mentions of "Lensham, Kent" can be found online, often in genealogical materials, where it's impossible to say if they reference an obscure place or are misprints for Lenham (or indeed Lewisham, which was within Kent until 1889).

This work listing parishes in Kent clearly prints "Lensham" in reference to Lenham (which is geographically adjacent to Leeds in Kent as well as following it in the list).

Conversely this work refers to Lewʃham (with the archaic 'long s'), clearly referring to Lewisham, but Google's OCR has read it as "Lensham." {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.208.127.181 (talk) 11:45, 29 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

On p. 1 of 90.208's first link there is a lower case italic "w" in "what" and a lower case italic "n" in "England". The "n" has a hook at top left, the "w" has a hook at top left and top right. Consequently, the word on p. 405 is "Lewsham". There's no link to Google's OCR transcription of this word. In which of Roy Jenkins' many biographies of Asquith does his remark appear? 86.133.58.87 (talk) 13:43, 29 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

August 29

Looking for any info on Asian coin found in Queensland, Australia.

Imgur link to coin

A coin my Uncle and Dad found medal detecting in Australia, a bit north of Brisbane by the beach. They found a bunch of WWII stuff there and suspect that there was dirt dumped there from somewhere else by the council, as the soil was not the natural colour. Would love to know what it says, if it has any significance or history. I appreciate any help.

58.179.70.15 (talk) 05:58, 29 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know how helpful this is, but the overtly obvious obverse depicts the area encompassing Borneo, Java, Sumatra, Indonesia, Malaysia, etc. Interestingly, there appears to be a Japanese flag at Jakarta. 107.15.157.44 (talk) 08:00, 29 August 2018 (UTC) ... hmmm, this might be relevant: Japanese occupation of the Dutch East Indies. My guess is that it is more of a medallion rather than a coin. (Coincidental misspelling above: "medal detecting"?) -- P.p.s: you might want to check over at WP:Reference desk/Language for a translation of the reverse; 東 = "east" is the best I can do.[reply]

Haha, yes that's a coincidental error with medal. Thank you for the input, I really appreciate your insights. I'll do as you suggested and post this over on the language reference desk.

Thank you

58.179.70.15 (talk) 09:49, 29 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Someone with a better view than I have might identify the characters as "Greater East Asia" and what appears to be "participate." That suggests Japan's WWII "Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere," but I can't see it clearly enough to be sure. DOR (HK) (talk) 12:39, 29 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The top, to me, looks like "zhan yadong da." It looks like a university medal to me, but I've never heard of a university named zhan yadong. Zhang Yadong - that is something completely different. 216.59.42.36 (talk) 18:51, 29 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]