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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Dappl (talk | contribs) at 06:01, 25 September 2018 (→Requested move 24 September 2018). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Rename Article to 2018 Gobal Trade War?

The Canadian tariffs on American goods have gone into effect, making the trade war go beyond the US and China. I don't know if or when the EU's tariffs on US goods will come into effect, but it's obvious this trade war is now a global one. Elishop (talk) 22:43, 2 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I think that the trade wars involving US and Canada/EU are different from the China-US trade war. We cannot rename 2018 China–United States trade war to cover all these trade wars until enough reliable sources call theses as a global trade war. --Neo-Jay (talk) 05:43, 6 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This is confusing and contradictory as heck

A 25% tariff on soybeans is mentioned twice, the second time as "additional". Does this mean a 50% total tariff? Or has one tariff gotten mentioned twice?

Also, the lead talks about "intention to impose tariffs of US$50 billion", but later it talks about imposing a 25% tariff on $34b + $16b = $50 billion of goods. That would be a $12.5b tariff. Which is it?

And is that $50b for all time, i.e. the tariff expires after $50b? Or is that (pre-tariff) annual trade in the covered items, which would thus be an annual recurring thing? (But an overestimate as people change to alternate suppliers.)

This really needs untangling. I don't feel like researching it right now, but I definitely appreciate anyone who does. 209.209.238.189 (talk) 17:55, 7 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Page move

Moved from User talk:Muboshgu § 2018 China–United States trade dispute
 – --- Coffeeandcrumbs 21:57, 7 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Someone renamed this page to a trade dispute without discussion when all RS refer to it by the COMMONNAME of trade war. Please revert it back and add page protection until discussion reaches a different consensus. I cannot do it because a redirect is blocking me. Also the talk page still has a capitalized "Dispute"--- Coffeeandcrumbs 21:39, 7 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Also this was done by an SPA [4] who came in just to do this.--- Coffeeandcrumbs 21:41, 7 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Coffeeandcrumbs: I just fixed the location of the talk page. Given the nature of this issue, I am not going to engage in a move war. It was at "dispute" when I posted it. I suggest a discussion on the talk page to decide between "dispute" vs. "war". – Muboshgu (talk) 21:47, 7 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I understand your predicament. Can you suggest a solution in the mean? How can we allow an SPA to POV move like this without discussion and block a revert page move like this?--- Coffeeandcrumbs 21:52, 7 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I'm debating this. I see it was at "war" from June 15 until today. Perhaps I should move it back. – Muboshgu (talk) 22:06, 7 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Coffeeandcrumbs: After more consideration, the page name was stable for long enough that the move made today should be undone, so I have undone it. A move discussion could be beneficial to codify consensus. – Muboshgu (talk) 22:16, 7 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Muboshgu and Coffeeandcrumbs: IMHO, either is fine. But I worry that "disputes" is a bit milquetoast, especially given the abrupt and unilateral beginning; it falsely implies that there was some meaningful discussion preceding the recourse to tariffs. (As an example of a dispute, softwood lumber has been a longstanding contentious issue between the U.S. and Canada.) Also, it's Trump's own word: "Trade wars are good, and easy to win." 209.209.238.189 (talk) 01:40, 8 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Muboshgu: Please move this talk page as well. Thank you!--- Coffeeandcrumbs 01:46, 8 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Seems MrX did so already. Odd it didn't move with the main page. I guess a side effect of the earlier page moves. – Muboshgu (talk) 01:52, 8 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed removal of {{fact}} in the leading sentence

Unknowingly someone has inserted two {{fact}}s into the leading sentence of the article without giving any rationale. Per MOS:LEADCITE, Complex, current, or controversial subjects may require many citations; others, few or none.. --123.161.170.212 (talk) 02:33, 8 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Date format

Per the MOS, the correct date format should be m-d-y. And nearly all of the sources are from the U.S. --Light show (talk) 04:53, 9 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Missing rationales for the tariffs

Outside of a few sentences in the lead about why the tariffs were imposed, the body really has almost nothing about the rationales behind them. What's given now in the main text are the tariff announcements followed by some market reactions. I suggest we try to fill that gap by citing, with reliable sources, some of the reasons either Trump, the administration, or others, have used to explain them. Thoughts? --Light show (talk) 01:47, 11 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Propose using "dispute" instead of "trade war"

Whether the article title should use a more neutral term like "dispute" instead of "trade war" should be considered. An article in today's South China Morning Post says that officials have instructed China's media to avoid using "trade war" in its headlines. Apparently, since the Chinese media is not as reliant on advertising, which uses sensationalism to attract readers, they can be instructed to tone down the words.

And reviewing statements by many business leaders and government officials, they, if anything, claim there is no trade war, and that it's a "dispute." That includes Trump and Peter Nafarro, who both claim the trade war was lost many years ago, and that there is no trade war. Same for Lighthizer, Mnuchin, Ross, and others mentioned in the article, who have not labeled it a trade war. Recent stories in the BBC, NBC, ABC, Reuters, SCMP, Nasdaq, UPI, CNBC, WSJ, CFR, NPR, and Bloomberg all use "trade dispute" in their headlines. So ---

Should the article title use the term "dispute" instead of "trade war"? Support --Light show (talk) 22:07, 14 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not strongly in favor of one term over the other, since the MSM obviously uses "trade war" in most headlines. But I'm aware that the MSM, as profit-making enterprises, will sensationalize stories when possible. And since "dispute" is neutral, and was used by all the sources I listed in their recent headlines, I thought the question was worth considering. I also thought that China's instructions to their own media to tone down the "war" aspect was relevant.
A bit off-topic, but I likewise took notice early last year after North Korea started testing missiles, that a number of UK papers (not U.S. papers) immediately began publishing multiple news stories with "World War 3" in their headlines (i.e., Express, The Sun, Daily Star, Mirror, Independent, etc.) So here's the U.S. dealing with NK, and our UK ally is turning it via headlines into a hot war. I mention this because for something as dangerous as international disputes, I really didn't appreciate seeing the media use sensational headlines to sell papers. I therefore think a neutral title is preferred for an encyclopedia. --Light show (talk) 02:59, 17 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
First of all, generally speaking, I don't think that the word "dispute" is more neutral than "war". The two words can be neutrally used in different cases. It is not neutral to use "dispute" when "war" should be used (for example, it's not neutral to call "World War II" as "World Dispute II"). Secondly, IMHO, the scale of this trade conflict (or whatever we call it) makes it correct and appropriate to call it as a "trade war". Exclusively calling it just a "trade dispute" is not neutral and is just deferring to some political concerns. And I strongly disagree that the Chinese government's choice of words is more neutral or advisable than mainstream media's. But I don't want to spend my time on arguing which word is more neutral in this case and whether calling it a "trade war" is "sensationalizing stories" or just describing the fact as I think that the answers to these questions are just POV. What we should follow here is Wikipedia:Common name. "Trade dispute" was just used in all the sources you listed in their recent headlines, and what you listed were just a small part of those media's reports. It is "trade war" that is the common name, and should be used as the title of this article. --Neo-Jay (talk) 03:36, 17 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Again, I'm not strongly leaning toward either term. But when you wrote, "I don't think that the word 'dispute' is more neutral than 'war,' I have to disagree. For instance, the CFR article gave a good summary for a non-MSM publication in their article titled "U.S.-China Trade Dispute." From the first paragraph: "The two largest economies in the world are exchanging threats of retaliatory tariffs, arousing concerns of a trade war and its repercussions... Speakers discuss the recent developments of additional tariffs, the implications of a possible trade war, and the impact on the future of U.S.-China relations." (emphasis added)
The point is that "trade war" is very often used looking ahead, as a future possibility. I see that in about half the articles using "trade war." The BBC's recent article is typical, "How a US-China trade war could hurt us all." Or CNBC: "While there is a concern that the trade dispute between the United States and China could escalate." Many headlines and stories using "trade war" often see it as a risk, not an absolute event, as today's headline in The Hill did: "EU presses China to open up economy, avoid trade war".
I think everyone agrees there is a trade "dispute," but they don't all consider it a "trade war." Even the Smoot–Hawley Tariffs, which imposed tariffs on 20,000 products, lasted for many years and was retaliated against, is not described as having been a "trade war." --Light show (talk) 04:33, 17 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The CFR article you mentioned was published on June 26, while the tariffs actually started on July 6. So it's understandable that it called the trade war as "possible". The BBC's article that you described as "typical" was published on July 5, also one day before the tariffs began, but it already described the trade war as something that was happening ("US and China are at the beginning of a trade war"), not just a "future possibility". The future possibility that the article talks about is the effect of the trade war, not the trade war itself. And we don't need everyone to agree that this is a trade war. Wikipedia:Common name does not require that the article title should be accepted by everyone. What we need to see is which name is the common name, i.e., used by a significant majority of sources. And we should not presume that those sources using "trade war" agree that the phrase "trade war" they use can be appropriately replaced by "trade dispute". The two phrases are different concepts and, as I put above, can be neutrally used in different cases. It is not neutral to use "trade dispute" when "trade war" should be used. As for Smoot–Hawley Tariffs, the current version of article Smoot–Hawley Tariff Act even does not mention "trade dispute", but "trade war" is at least used by one of its references (McDonald, Judith; O'Brien, Anthony Patrick; Callahan, Colleen (1997), "Trade Wars: Canada's Reaction to the Smoot–Hawley Tariff", Journal of Economic History, 57 (4): 802–26, doi:10.1017/S0022050700019549, JSTOR 2951161). And by the way, the Smoot-Hawley tariffs are also described as having "inspired a trade war" by the BBC's article that you described as "typical" above. In short, it's quite another issue how article Smoot–Hawley Tariff Act should be edited. That article may not be the perfect model that this article should follow.--Neo-Jay (talk) 05:29, 17 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

"Theft" of intellectual property

The use of the term "theft" of intellectual property is misleading when it is being used by sources that don't show how it is being "stolen" in the first place. If a company signs a deal with China to give up their intellectual property in exchange for market access, how is that "theft" when the company is consensually doing it? No one is forcing them to give it away, they are willingly agreeing to it because they believe they will benefit overall from the deal. I propose that the word “theft” be at least enclosed in quotation marks when there are accusations of situations where no stealing is actually taking place. Hypertall (talk) 03:22, 20 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This article addresses your point: "For instance, the Chinese government likes to claim that it doesn’t “force” technology transfers to local firms; foreign companies do so voluntarily. That’s disingenuous: In certain sectors, such as automobiles, regulation has been designed to leave foreign companies little choice." In my opinion, putting "theft" in quotation marks goes too far in the direction of skepticism. How about "A number of experts have focused on China's alleged theft of intellectual property"? Λυδαcιτγ 06:25, 21 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
How about "acquisition of intellectual property" or "transfer of intellectual property"? Jack N. Stock (talk) 15:59, 21 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I mean, there is some actual theft. For example, "One of the most recent high profile examples of theft of US intellectual property happened earlier this year. In January, a Beijing-based wind turbine company was found guilty in the US of stealing trade secrets, using secretly downloaded source code stolen from a Massachusetts company." The article goes on, "Total theft of US trade secrets accounts for anywhere from $180 billion to $540 billion per year, according to the Commission on the Theft of American Intellectual Property -- as "the world's principal IP infringer," China accounts for the most of that theft." [5] CNBC just reports it as "China's alleged theft of intellectual property", which I think we should follow. Λυδαcιτγ 02:44, 22 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 24 September 2018

2018 China–United States trade war → 2018 China–United States trade dispute – The term "trade war" is possibly inaccurate. This nomination is procedural as there have been several discussions and moves but no WP:RM discussion; I am neutral. power~enwiki (π, ν) 04:17, 24 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

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