Talk:Mahmoud Ahmadinejad

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Requested comment

So, quickly looking over the page, it seems to me like:

Meeting with Jews Against Zion is largely irrelevant to the debate over whether MA is anti-semetic. Few people are so extreme in their prejudices that they wouldn't even meet with the people they are prejudiced against-- merely meeting with someone isn't relevant to the debate, it doesn't sound.

That MA denies being anti-semetic, however, is _critical_ to the debate, and very relevant. That alone makes me think we should generally refer to his anti-semetics as merely "alleged". I haven't yet run into a case where I've felt it appropriate to unambiguously declare someone to have a prejudice when that person actively denies it. Of course-- nothing stops us from citing all the ample evidence suggesting MA is anti-semetic.

It _seems_ like his holocaust denial is not alleged. CNN certainly treats it that way, and there's a lot of evidence to back that up. So based on what I've seen for now, I'd say just call his holocaust denial a fact-- but I leave the door open that there might be cause to list it as 'alleged'-- I haven't read through the whole page. Again, in any case, the vast majority of the evidence adn the reliable sources characterize him as denying the holocaust, and we can mention all that.

Are there other issues I'm missing that are in dispute? --Alecmconroy 13:17, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

If you look at the heading title, it states Holocaust denial and allegations of anti-Semitism. I think that any printed denials by MA about anti-semitism also need to be in the article, but that fringe groups are out-of-scope per WP:NPOV#Undue weight. Also, this is why Category:Anti-Semitic people was removed and replaced with Category:Anti-Semitism. There is definitely debate and applicability of Anti-Semitism, but I think we've decided that "Anti-Semitic people" is a bit too much now. I may believe that to be true, and Jay did bring 18 sources to back that up, but enough ambiguity remains in others’ minds to make it not 100% clear, as is his Holocaust denial. -- Avi 13:22, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Right-- I should have been clear-- the anti-semetic IS currently stated as alleged, and I think the current way of doing it is a good thing. :) --Alecmconroy 22:12, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Thank you; a lot of editors are hashing out many difficult issues with the intent that pertinent issues are portrayed in a way that neither marginalizes nor overly-emphasizes the contraversial statements and actions of a contraversial man. If your skin (or head in my case) is thick enough, jump on in . -- Avi 22:26, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Removing journalism from the top of the article

Suppose that someone start Ariel Sharon's article with saying "he's the one that most of the middle eastern media call him the killer of Sabra& Shatila". Wouldn't it be funny? But this has happened for Ahmadinjed's article. It's absolutely wrong journalism, and you can see in Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons (Writing style section) that this kind of journalism is prohibited. User:Avraham is repeatedly threatening me, and calling this vandalism, so please provide your comments about this, so I can get rid of these personal attacks. The last important thing is that User:Avraham is removing Ahmadinejad's own words from the "Holocaust" section. It seems that everyone's comment about his talks is more important than his own! --Hossein.ir 16:53, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Please read Advocacy journalism, I believe you are mistaken as to what it means. Thirdly, placing proper warnings on user talk pages is never a threat or an attack. Secondly, please see your talk page. Lastly, please remember to be civil here; that policy is as important as any other in wikipedia. Thank you. -- Avi 17:06, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Hossein, you might check out the actual Ariel Sharon article. In the lead, it says: "Some of his critics have sought to prosecute him as a war criminal for alleged crimes related to the Sabra and Shatila massacre during the 1982 Lebanon War, for which the Kahan Commission held him both 'indirectly' and 'personally' responsible. While no Israelis participated in the massacre, the investigation found that Sharon was personally responsible due to negligence and complacency. Sharon was dismissed as Defense Minister as a result." Detailed criticism of Sharon. IronDuke 20:30, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Avi, you're not implying that Advocacy journalism is all right for wikipedia, are you? --LifeEnemy 03:16, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Of course not. But the section Hossein is referring to does not suffer from that particluar malady. -- Avi 12:17, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

I was pretty sure you weren't saying that. Just making sure!

Although the lead could use some fixing up (but that is being discussed right now, I believe) it doesn't need to be blanked, certainly. --LifeEnemy 01:49, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

I honestly don't think there's a problem with the summary of the article. In the mainstream media, Ahmadinejad is most well-known for his rhetoric regarding Israel and the Jews. And I haven't seen any "alternate translations," that changed the essence of what he said about Israel being wiped off the face of the map. Saying Israel should be "removed from the pages of history," or "removed from the pages of time," is essentially no different. What I'm concerned about is the section on him being anti-semitic. The section highlights anti-semitism while the article on controversies surrounding Mahmoud Ahmadinejad have his anti-semitism as only a small section. And while I agree that one can be anti-semitic and still be friends with Neturei Karta, one can also be a Holocaust denier and oppose Israel without being anti-semitic. In both cases, though, it's rather unlikely, which is what makes Mahmoud's views on Jews so puzzling and subject to differing views. Robocracy 12:49, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

But see, he isn't even referring to Israel as an entity. He said "The illegal occupiers of Jerusalem". I don't think that every Israeli is illegally occupying Jerusalem, but rather the government of Israel. --Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 02:16, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

And every Jew living there as well, no? -- Avi 03:17, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Nice try, putting words his his or her mouth. When someone says that they want to destroy the "state of x", they usually mean the government, no the people. Had he meant that he wanted to kill everyone in the "state of x", I don't think he would have remained their president.

Not Neturei Karta, apparently. Remember, according to him, Zionists aren't Jews.

Case in point: I googled to see what David Duke's relations are with Neturei Karta. He avoids them.

David Duke's comments from Stormfront.org:

“ I don't have any objection to hearing anti-Zionist Jews and even promoting their writings. In some way they are more convincing about the evils and dangers of Jewish supremacism than our own pronouncements because they are from Jews themselves.

But there is a difference between Jews exposing Jewish supremacists such as the late Israel Shahak and having Jewish rabbis lecture us on the dangers of immigration or how Jews are really on our side on the major issues and we shouldn't be concerned about them.

This actually occured at one conference I attended. I also sat dumbfounded at a Jewish speaker telling us how WASPs are responsible for egalitarianism and immigration problems and that there is some flaw in our people rather than we being a victim of direct deceit and subversion by the Jewish supremacists.

So that was my main point. I hope I have cleared up my position for you.

”

An anti-semite hates Jews, so of course, they can't make any distinction between "good Jews," and "bad Jews." And they can't pretend to be okay around "some" Jews. Robocracy 06:53, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

The J in Nejad

What is the correct pronunciation of the "nejad" part of his name? Is it like the "J" in "Jack" or like the "s" in "pleasure"? Thanks! --Amir E. Aharoni 09:27, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Azerbaijani?

A Russian news article (link) claims that Ahmadinejad is an ethnic Azerbaijani. The article doesn't say it. Is it true? Thanks! --Amir E. Aharoni 09:28, 6 November 2006 (UTC)