Talk:Barry O'Sullivan

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Ben McLeay (14 November 2018). "Wikipedia Editors Are Waging A Small War Over Barry O'Sullivan's Pronouns". Pedestrian. Retrieved 14 November 2018.

Gender/pronouns

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Semi-protected edit request on 14 November 2018

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Barry O'Sullivan has come out as transgender. It is respectful to use her preferred feminine pronouns throughout the article. 116.240.48.207 (talk) 09:20, 14 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

No. O'Sullivan is not being serious. Onetwothreeip (talk) 10:03, 14 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I have protected the article. Whilst it is reasonable to make comment about his statements to parliament the reporting of them, and public reaction, it is not reasonable to change the gender and names through the article based on his statements to the Senate. — billinghurst sDrewth 10:10, 14 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

We don’t get to determine his intent - we have to respect his stated wishes. It’s disrespectful not to acknowledge his statement and honour his gender-identification. I’m quite surprised that these changes were considered vandalism. They’re clearly not. They’re in keeping with his stated views. Col tom (talk) 10:36, 14 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Dammit. - her. Apologies, Barry. Col tom (talk) 10:37, 14 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

If he doesn't like it, that's not our problem. He is not a transgender person. Onetwothreeip (talk) 10:38, 14 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

In that case, Wikipedia needs to be more clear about exactly how they intend to recognize transgender and non-binary people within the scope of biographical articles. Under self-identification policies (such as the proposed national policy in the UK), O'Sullivan is to be regarded as a woman the moment they begin identifying themself as such, and edits reverting the senator's gender to male constitute transphobia and trans erasure, regardless of Wikipedia's views on the matter or the senator's actual intent. We already have Donald Trump trying to erase us, don't you dare start doing it too. It is not your place to decide who is or is not a transgender person. Clairebeargoesrawr (talk) 10:58, 14 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

An obvious and disruptive attempt at trolling. Onetwothreeip (talk) 11:00, 14 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Yep. Yawn. Close, block, move on. The Drover's Wife (talk) 11:12, 14 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Like hell it is. I just raised a perfectly valid issue: how does Wikipedia determine who is and isn't trans? Calling me a troll and ignoring the issue says a lot more about you than it does about me, and doesn't look good for Wikipedia. You can either pull your head in and find what what that policy is and resolve this dispute accordingly, or you can wear everything I just said about you and this site. Getting all huffy and authoritarian about it doesn't solve anything; this problem isn't going to go away just because you pressed a few buttons. Clairebeargoesrawr (talk) 11:15, 14 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Hi all, Senator O'Sullivan did personally state her gender as female in the Senate. Whether it is an anti-abortion protest or not, for the time being she clearly wants to identify with female pronouns. This page should be changed to she/her pronouns unless Senator O'Sullivan wishes for them to be changed back to male pronouns. Cheers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 103.44.24.22 (talk) 12:48, 14 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

MOS:GENDERID is very clear. "Give precedence to self-designation as reported in the most up-to-date reliable sources, even when it doesn't match what is most common in reliable sources. [...] Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to by the pronouns, possessive adjectives, and gendered nouns (for example "man/woman", "waiter/waitress", "chairman/chairwoman") that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification." Wikipedia:Gender_identity#Self-identification goes on to say "We accept the person's latest identification of their gender, as documented in reliable sources, at face value. To do otherwise — to refer to transgender or genderqueer people by names or pronouns which disregard their gender identities, i.e. to misgender them — is deeply offensive and causes harm."

There is literally nothing in the policy that says we must judge whether the declaration is "serious" or whether the person really means it or not. Whether she is serious or not, we cannot let ourselves be the judge. To do so sets a dangerous prescedent where we get to judge the validity of a trans person's gender identity. The policy is very clear - use the person's latest expressed gender self-identification in the most up-to-date reliable sources. The latest declaration, available in numerous sources, is clear - "I am going to declare my gender today... to be a woman". The pronouns in the article must be updated to reflect this. 2A02:C7D:72A9:9600:5CF8:3A:66FD:B065 (talk) 16:06, 14 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 14 November 2018

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Please use Barry’s preferred pronouns, this is disgusting behaviour. IhateTaxes (talk) 13:45, 14 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Not done: Read the source at https://www.buzzfeed.com/aliceworkman/nationals-senator-barry-osullivan-gender-female-abortion and the comments in the section above with which I concur: nothing indicates that his statement should be understood literally as in "I now identify as a transgender person". Sam Sailor 13:54, 14 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Irrelevant. This issue has now gone beyond one politician's gender identity; it's starting to raise questions about how Wikipedia treats transgender people who self-identify, and what admin intends to do to ensure this policy is not based on bigoted sentiment. Questions that certain users have very pointedly ignored, or tried to fob off with accusations of trolling. Wikipedia has some explaining to do. Clairebeargoesrawr (talk) 15:49, 14 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The talk page of an article about an Australian politician is not the place to debate Wikipedia policy about transgender biographies. Onetwothreeip (talk) 20:18, 14 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Nobody is debating policy, people are asking you to enforce it as written. --2607:FEA8:7AA0:61A:0:0:0:2 (talk) 17:50, 17 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This is seriously distressing

I am extremely shocked that we are living in 2018 and people are still refusing to acknowledge trans people's existence. She CLEARLY stated that she identifies as female, and we are to treat her as such. She is a transgender woman. Cosanostrapizzaman (talk) 15:54, 14 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 14 November 2018

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Barry O'Sullivan has told parliament he is declaring his gender "to be a woman”

https://www.buzzfeed.com/aliceworkman/nationals-senator-barry-osullivan-gender-female-abortion Bubbles4000 (talk) 20:21, 14 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Not done: the buzzfeed article implies that this was done as a joke. See the other edit requests above DannyS712 (talk) 20:46, 14 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

So... we are taking Buzzfeed's opinion over the text of Hansard? ok then...Leeborkman (talk) 00:44, 15 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding the statement in parliament coming out as transgender.

It is extremely clear under MOS:GENDERID that O'Sullivan should be referred to as the gender she wishes.

"Give precedence to self-designation as reported in the most up-to-date reliable sources, even when it doesn't match what is most common in reliable sources"

She is Australia's first openly trans politician and that is extremely notable. L32007 (talk) 08:26, 15 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Not done We would if they did come out as transgender, but they have not. O'Sullivan is not a woman, or transgender. Onetwothreeip (talk) 09:18, 15 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Coordinated effort to misgender this woman

There is a coordinated effort to misgender this woman, which is against MOS:GENDERID, it's bizarre and transphobic. L32007 (talk) 09:26, 15 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. Barry has made it very clear that she identifies as female. It’s not up to others to question that.

Col tom (talk) 09:42, 15 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Is it reasonable to have a RfC or something to try and reach consensus on this? It's clear that people feel strongly both ways about how to correctly apply MOS:GENDERID in this unique case and I don't think the current pattern of editing back and forth is helpful. That said I'm not a very experienced editor, so if more experienced people believe that RfC or something of the sort isn't called for, I'd believe them. KenyonP (talk) 09:45, 15 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

They're pretty obviously trolls, mocking Wikipedia's policies on identifying transgender people. Onetwothreeip (talk) 09:48, 15 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 17 November 2018

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She has declared herself a female, you do not have the right to decide her pronouns by reverting the female pronouns back to male. You may think it is a political stunt as many including myself do, However if someone says they are a gender nobody has the right to tell them otherwise. Claybryse4 (talk) 02:05, 17 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Not done See above. Onetwothreeip (talk) 02:37, 17 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

When did Wikipedia become the arbiter of who is transgender?

I'm genuinely curious as to how this is decided? Is it that anyone who leans to the right (wing) cannot be transgender according to Wikipedia? If this is the case then explain Zuzanna Mroz, a transwoman with outspoken right-wing views and is an author for Breitbart. In western society it is expected to respect a trans persons preferred pronouns and it's not expected to disregard them just because "we don't like or disagree with this person."

The idea of a single arbiter who judges a persons own identity is absurd, especially when that arbiter isn't going to be immune from bias. Someone raised a similar issue in the "gender/pronouns" discussion but it was literally called "trolling" and dismissed in a pathetic attempt to avoid it because it was a difficult question as to why Wikipedia should determine people's identities for them. Shameful. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jezza2K01 (talk • contribs) 02:22, 17 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Not done Wikipedia designates Caitlyn Jenner and Blaire White as transgender women, and they are right wing. O'Sullivan isn't transgender or female. Onetwothreeip (talk) 02:40, 17 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

why are we refusing changes?

When Caitlyn Jenner came out as a transwoman, nobody blinked an eye. So, why do we blink now? Why are we choosing NOT to use HER pronouns? please, enlighten me. Because all I am seeing at this current moment are bigots refusing to identify her as she chooses to identify. Starius (talk) 09:11, 17 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 15 November 2018

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Change "she" to "he" in "O'Sullivan's grandson, Patrick, made headlines across the nation after she was flung from an amusement park ride", as the grandson and not O'Sullivan was flung. KenyonP (talk) 09:14, 15 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Done Onetwothreeip (talk) 09:16, 15 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Minor edit needed

Change "On the 14 November 2018, O'Sullivan told Parliament the he" to "On the 14 November 2018, O'Sullivan told Parliament that he" to make sense of sentence. Djbcjk (talk) 20:51, 15 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Done. Thanks for the catch. The Drover's Wife (talk) 21:35, 15 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Fake Vandalism Warnings

Add facts to an article, and a biased and disruptive admin will issue a fake warning against disruptive editing and a fake warning against vandalism in order to punish you. That is abuse of admin position.Jason Harvestdancer | Talk to me 02:56, 18 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

You added the article to LGBT and transgender categories. That is disruptive. Onetwothreeip (talk) 03:19, 18 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It is your 'opinion' that it is disruptive. It is my opinion that you are violating WP:AGF and WP:ADHOMINEM with what you wrote.Jason Harvestdancer | Talk to me 04:02, 18 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This diff appears to be a possible example of a template misuse. Please see WP:CIVIL vandalism warning messages not intended to be used in a manner that can be regarded as bullying editors in a content dispute; disputes should be discussed with civility or resolved on the article's talk page. Regarding Sullivan's LGBT status: based on the video of recent senate proceedings, remarks by Barry O'Sullivan show she apparently self-identifies as trans. If she has further clarified or withdrawn this declaration, then please show the source. --Mysidia (talk) 13:52, 18 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Inaccurate gender pronouns

I see that this article still references to Barry as "he". What is the reason previous edits were reverted? Since the above section was marked "closed" I created this one. Barry has publicly come out as a woman, wikipedia needs to honor her preferred gender and associated pronouns. 68.183.234.134 (talk) 13:45, 18 November 2018 (UTC)Anonymous[reply]

This seems to be the subject of an unresolved edit warring/content dispute, and the discussion was archived by one of the involved editors after only a couple of days. --Mysidia (talk) 15:29, 18 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]