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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Martinevans123 (talk | contribs) at 18:35, 27 November 2018 (→Genre change: re). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Trimming the sexual assault allegations

Now Cliff has been formally declared as innocent, I think the allegation section needs a trim to keep it balanced with the rest of the article. I've cut it down to a bit more of a manageable length, and I see it's gone from the lead too. It really isn't that significant part of his career, all said and done. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 15:34, 16 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Not that Inspector Knacker of the Yard, would ever use the phrase "formally declared as innocent", of course. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:48, 16 June 2016 (UTC) [reply]
It was always likely that this would turn out to be Paul Gambaccini Mark Two, but the allegations and the controversy surrounding them remain notable. Ever since someone from South Yorkshire Police tipped off BBC News about the raid on Sir Cliff's home, leading to live TV coverage like the Iranian Embassy siege, there has been criticism of how this was handled.[1]--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 17:03, 16 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It's reported today that Cliff Richard will be taking legal action over this, but there is still an element of WP:FUTURE.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 10:02, 10 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Certainly not WP:FUTURE any more, and article certainly needs another update. e.g. [2] Martinevans123 (talk) 13:05, 3 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
WP:NOTNEWS still applies. Let's wait until something lasting has resulted. Walter Görlitz (talk) 14:24, 3 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I agree we don't need a daily update. But I think we should at least have the date the High Court proceedings started and finished? The UK public hasn't seen so much TV and press coverage of Sir Cliff for quite a few years (in fact, for about 2 years and 9 months). Martinevans123 (talk) 14:30, 3 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Commercial success in Ireland

"In Ireland, he holds the record for the most hits — 70 of them — trumping the likes of Michael Jackson and Madonna." I think this should go in somewhere, but am uncertain as to the best place. Also, there might be other useful new info in that citation. Can I leave it with the experts who watch this page to follow up? Narky Blert (talk) 12:05, 2 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Ancestry ambiguity

'Richard is primarily of English heritage, but he has one great-grandmother who was of half Welsh and half Spanish descent, born of a Spanish great-great-grandmother named Emiline Joseph Rebeiro.[14]'

The below article states his 'great-great grandmother, Emeline Josephine Rebeiro, [was] the daughter of an Indian man from Goa, Vitriaus Rebeiro'. I've had a look at the source for the current sentence, and although from a published biography, the fact that the book says that they were both Spanish and Portuguese people in India seems odd (There were few Portuguese people in Portuguese India let alone Spanish people). It is more likely that he is indeed of Indian descent.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2055932/Bigamy-Raj-scandal-buried-Cliffs-past.html

I think there needs to be an amendment sourcing the more recent article above. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Londoner90 (talk • contribs) 19:27, 10 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

We should be careful with WP:BLPPRIMARY issues here. If Cliff's (authorised?) biography makes one statement and we have a primary tabloid source of a cousin making a contradictory claim, we should at least quote the second in context, rather than have it flatly overwrite the first. The "daughter of an Indian man from Goa, Vitriaus Rebeiro" is the voice of the Daily Mail rather than the interviewed cousin, here? --McGeddon (talk) 19:26, 21 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I would have thought that a primary tabloid source quoting the hearsay of a cousin was more likely to be completely unreliable and useless by comparison. Just a guess. Steve Turner is hardly an unknown, is he? Martinevans123 (talk) 19:35, 21 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Although the Daily Mail article is an interesting read, we cannot rely on it as reliable and we should stick to the official (conventional) story about Cliff Richard's origin. The original should be reinstated immediately. If we want to keep the new so-called "revelations", it can be done in an elaborate explanatory footnote. werldwayd (talk) 23:03, 21 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Given the history of British India and the fact that so many generations of his family were born there, it would surprise me if Cliff Richard didn't have Indian ancestry somewhere along the line. As one of the comments in that Daily Mail article mentions, Indians who converted to Christianity often took European names, which would explain how one of his ancestors ended up with the surname 'Rebeiro'. Alistair McGowan - who participated in the genealogy series 'Who Do You Think You Are' - came across a similar situation with one of his forebears, and it was explained to him that she was almost certainly Indian. In fact, relationships between British settlers and the indigenous Indian population were actually encouraged at one time. Not least because European women who tried to settle in India usually didn't live very long. It was only later that a racial backlash started and many people of mixed white/Indian heritage tried to hide their roots. The actress, Merle Oberon, actually used to pretend that her Indian mother was a servant. Boris Karloff's great aunt (the real Anna Leonowens from 'The King and I') not only falsely claimed that she had been born in Wales, but disowned her sister for marrying an Anglo-Indian. Even Freddie Mercury used to side-step the issue of his ethnicity. I'm not saying that this is also the case for Cliff Richard, but he does admit in his first autobiography ('Which One's Cliff?') to having been on the receiving end of racist abuse when he first moved to England following India's independence. This may explain why he seems somewhat reluctant to acknowledge that he has Indian ancestry - and instead, says that his skin was simply swarthy from constant exposure to the sun. Andromer (talk) 23:22, 30 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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First sentence, first footnote

I'm not disputing the record sales but suely there should be a better more direct more authoritative cited source than a newspaper article about sex assault allegations with one single unsourced sentence about it included down at the bottom. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:C7D:86B:4A00:518D:8BA5:3B76:4BF3 (talk) 06:53, 20 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed and changed. ♫ RichardWeiss talk contribs 07:07, 20 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Genre change

There was a recent change to the genre here. We should have a section discussing the editor's style and support the genres over time. Walter Görlitz (talk) 15:57, 27 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I'm really not sure what you mean by "section discussing the editor's style." Regarding skiffle, the article says only this: "Harry Webb became interested in skiffle. His father bought him a guitar at 16 and he formed the Quintones vocal group in 1957, before singing in the Dick Teague Skiffle Group". His next band, the Drifters, were rock and roll. So in my view skiffle doesn't really belong in the lead section, and therefore probably not in the infobox either. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:11, 27 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I am not speaking for or against the recent genre edits. I am simply stating that one section that gather's the Richard's genres over time, with sources, would be appropriate. Walter Görlitz (talk) 17:57, 27 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Sounds like we should include skiffle, sounds important. Being historical is no reason not to. ♫ RichardWeiss talk contribs 17:58, 27 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Agree. Was an early contributor to the genre. The infobox should be a summary of the whole career, not just recent works. Walter Görlitz (talk) 18:01, 27 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I really don't think skiffle was a defining characteristic of his career. In fact, Stafford Hildred and Tim Ewbank, in Cliff: An Intimate Portrait of a Living Legend (2010) say "Cliff's flirtation with skiffle lasted for no more than a few months.... Martinevans123 (talk) 18:35, 27 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
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