Talk:Douma chemical attack

Should title be "Alleged Douma chemical attack"?

It is customary in societies that respect the rule of law to use the word "alleged" in reports of possible criminality, until the case has been properly investigated and a conclusion reached by the appropriate body. Can we agree that, at least until the OPCW has completed its investigation, the article should be titled "Alleged Douma Attack"? Kiwicherryblossom (talk) 14:09, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

No, the vast majority of sources do not refer to the event as the alleged Douma chemical attack. The current title best satisfies WP:CRITERIA.- MrX 🖋 15:11, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

No, the suggestion that no attack occured at all is a WP:FRINGE theory by a party with a long standing history of lying, denial, and obfuscation about exactly this sort of thing in this conflict. The viewpoint is notable so it deserves some sort of mention, but is need not affect the title of the article or cause us to pepper the article with "alleged." VQuakr (talk) 15:28, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

@MrX - The BBC puts "chemical attack" in inverted commas, as does Channel 4, while ITV and Sky TV use the word "alleged". These are the main TV news outlets in the UK. Perhaps in countries where there is less respect for the rule of law this is not the case, but Wikipedia should aspire to the highest standards. It should be about the quality of sources rather than the quantity suggested by a supposed "vast majority" of sources.

For your argument to be persuasive, you would need to convince us that UK-based media is more reliable than media based in other countries. I'm not sure what you mean by "countries where there is less respect for the rule of law". Are you referring to Syria or Russia?- MrX 🖋 18:08, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

The BBC is the world's oldest national broadcaster by number of employees, the largest international broadcaster and probably the most respected broadcasting institution in the world; it sets the standard for the UK. Moreover, all journalists have to be wary of UK libel laws and careful not to be in contempt of court by prejudicing the outcome of a trial. As a result, it is standard practice to use the word 'alleged' or to put alleged crimes in inverted commas, no matter how certain we may be that a crime has been committed or that a person is guilty. The presumption of innocence and a fair trial are considered to be the foundation of all liberty, and respect for the rule of law is so deeply ingrained in the UK media that it is extended to the deliberations of the OPCW. So it should for Wikipedia. I was not referring to any specific countries, but I certainly do believe that there is less respect for the rule of law in Syria and Russia, as is the case with very many other countries. Kiwicherryblossom (talk) 23:00, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

@VQakr - The suggestion is not that no attack took place at all, it is that it was not a chemical attack. This is not a 'fringe theory' or the BBC, ITV, Channel 4 News and Sky news would not use quotation marks or the word 'alleged' when they refer to the 'chemical attack'. Nor is it a theory held by only one party. It is a view that has been reported by western journalists and expressed by many residents of Douma, including medical personnel; although we should be sceptical, we are, as yet, in no position to dismiss this evidence. Please can you tell us which party you are referring to and can you provide specific examples of its 'long-standing history of lying, denial, and obfuscation'? This sounds like the kind of rhetorical flourish we might hear from the UK's eccentric Foreign Secretary, Boris Johnson who is definitely not the sort of chap to rely on for an NPOV.

Instead of writing 'alleged', I suggest we use quotation marks. Kiwicherryblossom (talk) 17:42, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

That's definitely not going to happen. Please consult WP:TITLEFORMAT.- MrX 🖋 18:10, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

I take your point that quotation marks should not generally be used in titles, however "Exceptions can be made when they are part of the proper title (e.g. "A" Is for Alibi) or required by orthography ("Weird Al" Yankovic)" Since the title used in media reports(at least in the UK) is often Douma 'chemical' attack or Douma 'chemical attack' it could be argued that it is justified by orthography as well as legality. WP:TITLEFORMAT also says that the word 'alleged' ... should be avoided in a descriptive title, but that there is an "Exception: articles where the topic is an actual accusation of illegality under law, discussed as such by reliable sources even if not yet proven in a court of law. These are appropriately described as “allegations". This is very much the case here as chemical weapons use is a crime under international law. Thus it is appropriate to describe the allegation that this was a chemical attack as an allegation in the title, and it might be orthographically appropriate to use quotation marks for 'chemical' or 'chemical attack', which would also be legally appropriate. One way or another, WP:TITLEFORMAT tells us that we have to make it clear that so far this is an allegation. We are also expected to use common sense, so quotation marks might be the most sensible way of doing what is legally appropriate. I strongly believe it should be changed so as not to prejudge the outcome of the OPCW investigation. Not doing this seems just plain wrong and contrary to the most elemental principles of justice. It is frankly disturbing that this is not being done. What do you suggest? Kiwicherryblossom (talk) 23:57, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

• That is probably premature. I think we should wait for the results of the OPCW investigation to be published, Huldra (talk) 20:04, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

Indeed. Until the OPCW has published the results of its investigation, Wikipedia guidelines make it clear that it is appropriate to include in the title the fact that this is currently an allegation that is being investigated by a legal body. The question is - do we use quotation marks for 'chemical' or for 'chemical attack' or do we say - Alleged Douma chemical attack or Douma chemical attack allegations - or something else that carries the same meaning? Kiwicherryblossom (talk) 23:57, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

Given that we don't use "alleged" or WP:SCAREQUOTES in the title of Bowling Green Massacre, it seems unlikely that you are going to find consensus to included either here. VQuakr (talk) 02:01, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

The Bowling Green Massacre was a ridiculous and totally fictitious misstatement by Kellyanne Conway that swiftly became a matter of ridicule. No serious allegations were being investigated or tried by a legal body, whereas the allegation in the case of Douma is an actual accusation of illegality under international law, discussed as such by reliable sources, and not yet proven by the legal body examining the evidence. See WP:TITLEFORMAT (Neutrality in article titles: Non-judgmental descriptive titles) which says, "articles where the topic is an actual accusation of illegality under law, discussed as such by reliable sources even if not yet proven in a court of law. These are appropriately described as “allegations". WP's rule on this is very clear. Why should we not respect it? Kiwicherryblossom (talk) 04:28, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

The UN and the OPCW plus major broadcasters, such as the BBC, ITV, Channel 4, Sky, CBS, MSNBC, Fox, ABC and CNN, preface references to the Douma 'chemical attack' with words like 'alleged' or 'suspected' or use quotation marks. Wikipedia guidelines are clear: "alleged and accused are appropriate when wrongdoing is asserted but undetermined, such as with people awaiting or undergoing a criminal trial;" Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Words to watch. This also applies to titles. Expressions of doubt should generally be avoided but there is an exception for "articles where the topic is an actual accusation of illegality under law, discussed as such by reliable sources even if not yet proven in a court of law. These are appropriately described as “allegations"." Wikipedia:Article titles As far as I am aware, there is no consensus for editors to ignore Wikipedia guidelines, to dismiss the position of the UN and the OPCW as WP:FRINGE in a matter under their jurisdiction or to fall below the ethical standards of reliable sources.Kiwicherryblossom (talk) 21:11, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

Suggesting that BBC/etc use "suspected" or whatever requires some major cherry-picking. If we had specific claims about a living person related to this then yes, we would follow WP:BLP. We are not ignoring policy, we are ignoring your incorrect interpretation of it. VQuakr (talk) 04:10, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

It requires no cherry picking at all. It's near universal. Google BBC Douma. You will have to cherry pick to find exceptions. Same goes for the other broadcasters. It's standard practice. To make your point stick, you need to prove that 'a vast majority' (MrX's phrase) of BBC/etc reports on the Douma chemical attack lack 'expressions of doubt'.

The guideline refers to "articles where the topic is an actual accusation of illegality under the law'. It neither says or implies that the 'topic' has to be a person, so your reference to WP:BLP is irrelevant. To refer to the Douma chemical attack without expressions of doubt is to state that a chemical attack took place and that is unambiguously and undeniably 'an actual accusation of illegality under the law', so the guideline must apply. My interpretation is absolutely correct and I'm afraid you are acting in direct contravention of policy. Kiwicherryblossom (talk) 07:44, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

There are many, many sources that now call this an alleged attack after the OPCW report, certainly WP should simply reflect the consensus of reliable sources even if it requires making embarrassing changes to an article. 2600:1700:1111:5940:D9F6:63D1:857A:104 (talk) 00:07, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

Let's see these alleged "many sources".Volunteer Marek (talk) 23:58, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

Yes. @Huldra That the title is "premature" is precisely the point. If, as you say, a responsible approach is to wait for the results of the OPCW investigation, then the attack should be acknowledged as "alleged" until those results are available. I think something must done to acknowledge that this chemical attack remains controversial and has not yet been confirmed by an authoritative third party. The astonishing Fisk controversy above highlights this (which I contributed to by adding the Fisk paragraph, yet then did not realize it was being debated here, being still shamefully untutored in proper Wiki editing, for which I sincerely apologize). I support @Kiwicherryblossom on this. Hope my contribution here is more appropriate. Tafkira2 (talk) 16:20, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

Agree, (a little late...) So, we have exactly zero proof that this was even a chemical attack. (Chlorinated chemicals are exceedingly common...I have them in my bathroom and under my kitchen sink....and I am not making bombs... ;P ) OPCW found NO PROOF of any chemical bombs. I suggest we move this article to Douma 2018 attack. (I really don't like article with "alleged" in the title; that sounds totally unencyclopaedic to my ears) Comments? Can I move it, or do I need to start another RfC? Huldra (talk) 22:38, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

You mean a move request? Please first list the reliable sources that are now calling this "the Douma attack".- MrX 🖋 23:29, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

Suspected

Having tried unsuccessfully to make a few edits to the text, including referring to the Douma chemical attack as "suspected," (because that is how the referenced BBC article described it), and having had a brief chat on VQakr's talk page, VQakr has suggested I return to this talk section to discuss the matter. VQakr said: "The BBC article was from the day after the attack; there have been multiple confirmations since then. This really should be being discussed on the article talk page, but briefly - whether or not a nerve agent was used, some sort of chemical caused the scores of fatalities. Therefore, "suspected" is an unneeded qualifier that violates WP:NPOV. VQuakr (talk) 16:45, 5 December 2018 (UTC)" This seems an extraordinary thing to say. I understand the BBC article was from the day of the attack, but if it is no longer appropriate, why continue to use it? If it is a valid reference then so is the word 'suspected'. The most authoritative view is provided by the OPCW interim report, which does not refer to "multiple confirmations" or conclude that a chemical attack took place; instead it refers to "alleged sites" and "alleged incidents", and says "This document contains an update on the work of the OPCW Fact-Finding Mission in Syria (FFM) regarding the alleged use of toxic chemicals as a weapon in Douma". The report found no evidence of sarin (as had been claimed by the rebels, various NGOs, the USA and others) and the chlorinated organic chemicals referred to have many domestic uses (as Huldra has pointed out), so their presence is not proof of a chemical attack. For VQakr to say, “whether or not a nerve agent was used, some sort of chemical caused the scores of fatalities” Therefore, "suspected" is an unneeded qualifier that violates WP:NPOV.” is to beg the question and describing “suspected” as an "an unneeded qualifier that violates WP:NPOV” seems to turn the truth on its head. Where is the evidence for this? How does VQakr know, for example, that the casualties seen in the hospital were victims of a chemical attack rather than, say smoke or dust inhalation from conventional bombing or that they were not simply being sprayed with water by people desperate to elicit military support from the West? How does VQakr know that the people lying dead in the basement were victims of a chemical attack? How can we be sure that they did not die from smoke or dust inhalation or were not murdered by the rebels and then manipulated to look like chemical attack victims - some bodies had definitely been moved. Has anyone seen the autopsies? VQakr seems to know more than the OPCW or perhaps s/he has seen the final report? If not, it seems to me that since the OPCW has disproved the sarin claims and continues to refer to the “alleged use of toxic chemicals” as a weapon in Douma”, so should we. I move that we follow the lead of the OPCW and the BBC and refer to the Douma chemical attack as "alleged" or "suspected" or some similar term in order to make it clear that it is as yet unproven that a chemical attack took place in Douma. Kiwicherryblossom (talk) 04:10, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

@Kiwicherryblossom: other editors are not going to be familiar with, or care about, discussions on my user talk page. How about you concisely rework your opening statement to be content-focused instead of editor-focused? VQuakr (talk) 04:40, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

No, they won't be familiar with the discussion which is why I repeated it. Whether they care or not is up to them. How about you address serious questions, rather than avoid them in order to be concise or vice versa?Kiwicherryblossom (talk) 14:53, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

The current wording is preferable. We need to look at more than one source, and preferably ones that are more recent such as this BBC article: [1] or this Reuters article: [2]. Also these: [3][4]- MrX 🖋 12:22, 6 December 2018 (UTC

We do need to look at more than one source. However, other than DW, none of the other references make your case. Even the rather poor BBC article refers to "reported chemical attacks" re Douma. Reuters says: "It was also seeking to verify the identity of a substance used in an attack in Douma, Syria." It does not say it was a chemical attack. The other says "Sorry, this content is not available in your region."It may have its flaws but why is the OPCW regarded as less authoritative than DW? Do you really believe the current wording is preferable to that used by the OPCW or the BBC?Kiwicherryblossom (talk) 14:53, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

I agree that the current wording is preferable. We already cite and quote the commission in the lede, which concludes it was a chlorine attack (a conclusion not incompatible with the interim OPCW report). The BBC article from the day after the attack is outdated for a conclusion of who was responsible, but it still fine as a source for things that have not been updated over time. The OPCW didn't get the authority to assign blame for attacks until June of this year, so they are always going to be indirect about this attack or others that occurred prior to then. VQuakr (talk) 16:20, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

I agree with MrX and VQuakr. There are two relevant policies. One is WP:BNS, which says: " Plan to replace all breaking news sources in the future with solid secondary sources." It is better to go with later sources that distill more information than with breaking news sources. Second, where there are numerous reliable sources, we should go with the weight of what reliable sources say. As MrX points out, Reuters and DW don't use "suspected"; nor do AP, NYT, or other reliable sources. BobFromBrockley (talk) 15:06, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

Apologies for the lack of brevity, but I am responding to MrX, VQakr and Bobfrombrockley. At least my intervention has caused the glaring inconsistency of the BBC report to be recognised. However, the replacement from the Telegraph, like the BBC, also refers to a "suspected chemical attack" as do the Guardian, NYT etc, while the OPCW interim report uses "alleged". MrX's Reuters link is about cyber attacks and doesn't refer to the Douma attack at all, although a Reuters report that does concern Douma refers to "an attack in Douma, Syria," without using the word "chemical". Fox13, is a local US channel, unavailable in my area, and is not reliable compared to, say, the BBC or the OPCW.

VQakr's argument rests heavily on the commission However, the Commission's enquiry is being carried out under the auspices of the UNHRC, which is a body, often accused of bias, not least by the USA. It was boycotted by the George W Bush administration and the USA quit again in June 2018 with Nikki Haley calling it a "cesspool of political bias". https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/44537372 . In 2015, the UN was criticised "for appointing a representative from the Saudi Arabian government as the head of an influential human rights panel". https://news.yahoo.com/u-n-watchdog-slams-scandalous-160650242.html?guccounter=2 I would suggest that the UNHRC Inquiry is not a reliable source and is certainly a less authoritative body that the OPCW, particularly in respect of Douma, since it is specifically the OPCW that is carrying out the investigation. VQakr's point that "the OPCW didn't get the authority to assign blame for attacks until June of this year, so they are always going to be indirect about this attack or others that occurred prior to then" is irrelevant, since we are discussing whether or not to describe the incident as a "chemical attack", not whether or not we can attribute blame for it. The OPCW has not yet described the incident as a chemical attack, which is why it still uses the word "alleged".

The AP reports in Bobfrombrockley's Google link used 'Syria attack' in the title and 'suspected chemical weapons attack' in the text. Even DW generally uses "suspected" or "alleged" in its reports so we should not cherry-pick an atypical article. I agree with Bobfrombrockley who says "we should go with the weight of what reliable sources say" which is without question, "suspected" or "alleged" in the text, and perhaps the omission of the word "chemical" in the title. Kiwicherryblossom (talk) 20:53, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

Maybe I've misread the Reuter's source, but is says:

"At the time, the OPCW was working to verify the identity of the substance used in the Salisbury attack. It was also seeking to verify the identity of a substance used in an attack in Douma, Syria."

I believe it's referring to the attack documented in this article, not a cyberattack. (I've taken the liberty of inserting line feed into your comment where it seems you were trying to create paragraphs. If you press enter an addition time when you create a new paragraph, it will make you lengthy comments more readable.) - MrX 🖋 22:46, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

Thank you for the paragraphing and apologies. It does say that, however it is not an article about Douma, and it does not refer directly to a "chemical attack". It refers to "an attack". I'm not sure how an aside referring to "an attack in Douma" makes the case for using the phrase "Douma chemical attack," especially as we now know that Sarin was not identified as a substance used during the undoubted military attack and the chemicals that were identified have not been linked to that attack by the OPCW, If anything, the Reuters article supports my case for omitting the word "chemical" in the title. Do you agree with me on this and that the weight of reliable sources say, "suspected" or "alleged"? Kiwicherryblossom (talk) 01:37, 8 December 2018 (UTC)

The Reuters article unambiguously notes the Douma attack was a chemical attack, and presents it as fact while noting the specific chemical ("substance") used is still under investigation. I also contested a proposed injection of POV here. Kiwi, I agree that mention of sarin in the 3rd sentence is undue at this point, but I think this is a case where the lead can be improved by removal rather than insertion. I propose that instead we shorten "Medics on the ground reported smelling a chlorine-like substance, but said the patients' symptoms and the large death toll pointed to a more noxious substance such as nerve agent sarin." to "Medics on the ground reported smelling a chlorine-like substance.", as this better summarizes the overall sourcing available regarding the attack. VQuakr (talk) 21:16, 8 December 2018 (UTC)

Hi VQ. I can’t agree that “the Reuters article unambiguously notes the Douma attack was a chemical attack and presents it as fact”. The full quote is: “At the time, the OPCW was working to verify the identity of the substance used in the Salisbury attack. It was also seeking to verify the identity of a substance used in an attack in Douma, Syria.” There was certainly a military attack in Douma, but it was not necessarily a chemical attack, and the substance need not have been a banned substance - it could have been explosive residue - whereas In Salisbury, any attack could only have been a chemical attack. Also, of course, the Salisbury attack has been identified by the OPCW as a chemical attack, while the “attack in Douma” has not. An article that is not about Douma and that does not use the phrase “chemical attack” cannot be used to justify our using it, especially as the overwhelming majority of credible sources (I have seen), including the OPCW, appropriately use WP:Expressions of doubt See also CNBC report ref below, which uses "suspected".

I don’t think the sarin mention is undue in the lede, because sarin was referred to several times in the USA intelligence report and widely reported in reliable sources, as well as being cited by “medics on the ground” as the cause of the reported symptoms. It is also a banned chemical whereas chlorine is not, so it is more significant than chlorine and has to be mentioned if the overall sourcing is to be accurately and fairly summarised. However, since no traces of sarin were found by the OPCW, this must also be mentioned in the lede. I accept your criticism of the wording, so I shall change it to “However, according to the OPCW interim report, no sarin or other nerve agents were detected”. I hope this is ok.Kiwicherryblossom (talk) 04:33, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

References

That seems too repetitive with the third paragraph of the lede (which, obviously, would qualify to most as an existing "mention" of the OPCW report in the lede). VQuakr (talk) 04:48, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

Yes, sorry, I should have said 'opening paragraph' not 'lede'. Obviously the first reference to the OPCW's should not be left to the third paragraph, but I take your point.

I note you didn't disagree with my comments about about the Reuters article and the need to use expressions of doubt such as 'suspected' or 'alleged' when referring to the Douma attack.Kiwicherryblossom (talk) 17:01, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

Um, I've disagreed with it repeatedly, as have a number of other editors over a period of months. We don't need to repeat that disagreement every time we post to this talk page for the consensus to remain clear. (talk) 18:14, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

Without comment on the other sources, the Reuters article in question does not "unambiguously note the Douma attack was a chemical attack," as the words "chemical," or "sarin," don't appear anywhere within it. If we're looking for something that's unambiguous surely there's a source that actually says what you are looking for. -Darouet (talk) 20:44, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

@VQuakr: I agree with Darouet that the Reuters article in question does not "unambiguously note the Douma attack was a chemical attack," as the words "chemical," or "sarin," don't appear anywhere within it.” Please can you explain why you think it does “unambiguously" note that the Douma attack was a chemical attack? Kiwicherryblossom (talk) 11:31, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

I disagree. " It was also seeking to verify the identity of a substance used in an attack in Douma, Syria.". Unless you believe a substance is not a chemical.- MrX 🖋 12:48, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for adding the talk reflist.

First of all, a passing and ambiguous reference in an article about Salisbury, ""...seeking to verify the identity of a substance used in an attack in Douma...", isn't sufficient to demonstrate that yes, major news sources agree that a chemical attack occurred in Douma, especially if many of them still refer to it as "suspected" or "alleged."

Regarding "substance," did investigators take soil and other samples and check for the presence of compounds, like sarin or chlorine, or did they find some liquid or residue that they knew was poisonous, and were trying to figure out what it was? None of this is going to be clear from a single clause found in a Reuters article about a different subject.

Lastly, is it true that this OPCW investigation didn't find any poisonous substance? If so, that certainly doesn't mean mean a poisonous chemical wasn't used, as I think I recall investigators were blocked from accessing the site for some time. Nevertheless if they couldn't find such a chemical that does need to be clearly stated somewhere. -Darouet (talk) 16:48, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

@Darouet: the OPCW found "no organophosphorous nerve agents or their degradation products" in the samples collected. We do clearly state this, in both the lede and the body. The Reuters source is clearly talking about a chemical attack. Alone I agree it is a relatively passing mention, but it does not exist in a vacuum. As discussed above it is one of many sources, including the UN commission, that identify this as a chemical attack. VQuakr (talk) 17:15, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

Hey VQuakr, thanks for that. I'll be honest, I haven't done a search to check and see how recent articles have treated Douma, so please accept that major caveat and the correspondingly limited scope of this comment. Just reviewing the four articles that MrX listed in their earlier comment,

• The BBC article [5] always uses "reported" or "alleged:" "...alleged chemical attacks were Kafr Zita, in Hama province, and Douma... Douma, the biggest town in the Eastern Ghouta, was the target of four reported chemical attacks over four months... the incident in Douma... the site of the reported attack in Douma..."
• The Fox13 article [6] does the same: "...several Syrian activist groups reported that a brutal gas attack on the remnants of the rebel-held city of Douma... [the groups] said toxic gas inside barrel bombs dropped by helicopters over Douma caused people to suffocate..."
• The DW article [7] clearly calls the attack a chemical attack: "...following the Douma chemical attack in April, also blamed on the Syrian government...". However in that reference, which is a single sentence, the DW links to a longer article actually dedicated to the topic [8] which also calls the attack alleged: "...the Syrian government's alleged use of chemical weapons on civilians...".

Unless I have time to do a survey of recent references to Douma, I'll just leave my comments at that for now. -Darouet (talk) 17:33, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

I agree with Darouet.

Since the OPCW report, even the pro-interventionist Guardian has used expressions of doubt to describe the Douma attack. Here,Douma is referred to as "the site of an alleged chemical attack".

It is much easier to find reliable sources that use "alleged", "suspected" or other expressions of doubt than those that don't, and it is appropriate to do so (especially following the OPCW report)

Wikipedia is unambiguous about what we should do. WP:Manual of Style/Words to watch says, "alleged and accused are appropriate when wrongdoing is asserted but undetermined". I move that the case has been made for expressions of doubt to be used to describe the alleged/suspected chemical attack at Douma in April 2018.Kiwicherryblossom (talk) 09:16, 12 December 2018 (UTC)

References

Wikipedia uses "suspected" regarding the Aleppo attack in the article here. Please can VQakr explain the inconsistency? Kiwicherryblossom (talk) 15:24, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

Unfortunately, there have been many "Aleppo" chemical attacks. If you are talking about the 24 November 2018 entry on the table, because the word "suspected" occurs within a direct quote. But even if it weren't a quote, what's the relevance? It is a different, more recent attack in a summary article. VQuakr (talk) 16:31, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

Yes, @VQuakr:, the 24 November 2018 Aleppo attack. I would agree to using "suspected chemical attack" etc in direct quotes. There is no shortage of sources. Yes, it is a different attack to the one in Douma, but I cannot see any difference relevant to this discussion. The relevant comparison is that, as with Douma, it has not been proven as an attack by the OPCW and in both cases, the use of chemical weapons has been described by the OPCW as "alleged," which, like "suspected" is an expression of doubt. So why would we not use "suspected" (or "alleged" etc) in both cases, especially when reliable sources are far more likely to use them than not? "When used correctly, these comparisons are important as the encyclopedia should be consistent in the content that it provides or excludes. … Trouble arises when legitimate comparisons are disregarded without thought or consideration of the Wikipedia:Five pillars". WP:OSE

Could you also address the other points I raised? - the Guardian's use of "alleged" since the OPCW report? The view that it is easier to find reliable sources that use expressions of doubt than those that do not, and the fact that WP:Manual of style says expressions of doubt like "alleged" are "appropriate when wrongdoing is asserted but undetermined", which is exactly the case here. Kiwicherryblossom (talk) 00:55, 15 December 2018 (UTC)

The 24 November attack is much more recent. Has OPCW released any kind of report? Have there been other international and national assessments released? If not, then it would be wrong four different ways to internally compare a dissimilar article about a dissimilar attack to draw conclusions about dissimilar usage of a word. Your quote from WP:OSE doesn't apply - your analogy was given thought and consideration before being rightfully tossed in the bin.

You've repeatedly demonstrated a willingness to reject any source that doesn't match your viewpoint. The only point you've raised is that among sources that you are willing to acknowledge, expressions of doubt are not uncommon. But even if we found 51% of news articles contained "alleged", so what? As already pointed out to you both here and when you've tried the exact same argument elsewhere, the decision on whether to include such expressions of doubt regarding a historical event is editorial, not prescriptive. And editorially speaking, given that we have confirmation of long-lived chemical remnants by the OPCW (despite two weeks of delay in being able to collect samples), confirmation of chemical barrel bombs as assessed by multiple governments as well as the UN HRC commission, and widespread in situ reporting from witnesses to the chemical attack as reported by various reliable secondary sources, I am comfortable omitting weasel words like "alleged" regarding the occurrence of this attack from the article anywhere where doing so doesn't cause BLP or attribution problems. VQuakr (talk) 02:26, 15 December 2018 (UTC)

You may be comfortable saying in WP voice that these things occurred; I am not.

The "chemical remnants" to which you refer do not exist; they are really just chemical compounds. OPCW never referred to 'remnants'. You made that up. They never said that the chlorine compounds they found were associated with chlorine gas, still less that they were 'remnants' from chemical weapons.

Which assessment by the UN HRC Commission are you referring to? I am not aware that the "UN HRC Commission" has conducted an assessment of the available evidence, much less visited the site. I take it you are referring to the Human Rights Commission? That'll be the HRC, not the "HRC Commission". I'm not aware that the HRC is competent to judge whether chemical weapons have or haven't been used in any particular incident. There are agencies that have staff skilled in the matter of chemical weapons; the HRC is not one of them. It's staff are skilled in matters of human rights. MrDemeanour (talk) 04:12, 15 December 2018 (UTC)

They are a chemical fingerprint of an attack with chlorine gas, a fingerprint which has been identified in other chlorine gas attacks in Syria and for which the presence of, as a group, there is no other plausible explanation. Are you really going to claim the OPCW must have coincidentally come across a chemical laboratory in a residential apartment building and found TCA, and still found fit to include the results in their report? All chemical test results will be in the form of identifying "just chemical compounds" - that is what reaction products, the remnants of the chemical attack with volatile Cl2, are. I am referring to the Independent International Commission of Inquiry on the Syrian Arab Republic, which was established by the UN Human Rights Council, ergo: HRC Commission. We cite them in the article, and I do not particularly care about your personal analysis regarding their competence. VQuakr (talk) 04:59, 15 December 2018 (UTC)

@VQuakr: The idea that there is no other plausible explanation than a chemical attack is obviously false, otherwise the OPCW would have said so, rather than repeatedly refer to the "alleged" use of chemical weapons as you refuse to do. As you well know, the real significance of the report is the absence of sarin, the use of which was confidently alleged to justify bombing Syria, and which took us to the brink of war with Russia. Admitting this dreadful error requires quite a climbdown, I do appreciate that. Kiwicherryblossom (talk) 04:02, 17 December 2018 (UTC)

Yes, the Commission operates under the auspices of the UNHRC, but as I pointed out earlier (7 Dec), the UNHRC is a body often accused of bias. In 2008 "U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon told the organization’s widely-criticized Human Rights Council to drop rhetoric and bloc voting and get on with actually defending ordinary people from abuse." https://www.reuters.com/article/us-un-rights/u-n-chief-tells-rights-body-drop-rhetoric-blocs-idUSTRE4BB67820081212.

In September 2015, the HRC was criticised for the appointment of a representative from the Saudi Arabian government as its head. https://news.yahoo.com/u-n-watchdog-slams-scandalous-160650242.html?guccounter=2

In June 2018, the USA withdrew from the UNHRC. Mike Pompeo denounced the council as "a protector of human rights abusers”, and Nikki Haley called it a "cesspool of political bias”. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/44537372

ANNEX 3 of the Commission's document cited by our article gave Turkey the opportunity to give "information" on "Operation Olive Branch". Turkey was enabled to tell us that Operation Olive Branch "has shown to the entire world how a counter-terrorism operation can be conducted without harming civilians and civilian infrastructure."

All of this strongly suggests that the UNHRC is not an impartial source and that a paragraph from its Commission of Enquiry on the Douma attack is a far less reliable source than the OPCW. We should not use it. Kiwicherryblossom (talk) 17:37, 15 December 2018 (UTC)

Wow, this is pathetic. I'm struggling to think how accusations that the HRC is too influenced by Russia and has been denounced by the US, make its agreement with the US and disagreement with Russia suspect. To be clear to any other editors lurking just how far this editor is reaching to try to discredit the source: the selection of a Saudi, Faisal bin Hassan Trad, to lead the panel was indeed contentious. He was in the role for one year, in 2015 - the current cycle's president is Slovenian. 2008 was, ya know, a decade ago. Annex III (which was, as the Commission makes clear in their report, provided verbatim by Turkey) is not the section of the report we quote in the article. The US left the council this year due to the council's willingness to criticize Israel. VQuakr (talk) 19:02, 15 December 2018 (UTC)

The fact that you are "struggling to think" may help to explain why you prefer to base our editorial stance on an evidence-free paragraph cherry-picked from a report by an institution described as a "cesspool of political bias" rather than on the detailed findings of the OPCW FFM that forensically examined the site of the attack. Kiwicherryblossom (talk) 06:00, 16 December 2018 (UTC)

The HRC and OPCW findings compliment each other; they do not conflict. Your accusation of cherry-picking is nonsensical. VQuakr (talk) 07:16, 16 December 2018 (UTC)

I did not say they conflict. You have missed the point, yet again. The OPCW is the body investigating the Douma attack, while the HRC commission's task is to look at the Syrian Civil War as a whole from a human rights perspective. It relies on information from the OPCW, not the other way round. As yet, there is insufficient information from the OPCW to justify the commission's claim that a "gas cylinder containing a chlorine payload delivered by helicopter struck a multi-storey residential apartment building located approximately 100 metres south-west of Shohada square". The OPCW investigation is ongoing and has not yet reached that conclusion. Given this and the poor reputation of the HRC, it is obvious to anyone who is not being wilfully obtuse that the OPCW's interim report is a more reliable source than a paragraph from the HRC commission's report. Kiwicherryblossom (talk) 17:47, 16 December 2018 (UTC)

The Commission is under the authority of the HRC, but it is independent of it, and none of the criticisms of the HRC cited here relate to the work of the Commission. The role of the Commission is not exactly to "look at the Syrian Civil War as a whole from a human rights perspective", but to investigate allegations of human rights abuses with a view to assessing evidence for future prosecutions. The OPCW are expert in the specifics of chemical weapons and have been stopped from attributing responsibility by the Russian veto; the commissioners are legal experts who assess a range of evidence, including but not limited to that provided by the OPCW, to see if the standard of evidence is sufficient for prosecution. They have direct access, I believe, to the OPCW evidence, but also have the power to seek other testimony and look at other sources. So I don't think your attack on the HRC is relevant. BobFromBrockley (talk) 17:47, 17 December 2018 (UTC)

I take your point Bob, but in my experience, 'independent commissions' under the authority of corrupt or biased organisations tend to reflect the biases of those organisations. The fact that the HRC commission ignores legal norms, by effectively pre-empting the outcome of a possible prosecution, demonstrates its lack of impartiality. Particularly as it does so as an aside in a single paragraph without providing any of the evidence upon which it has based its enormously significant claim and, presumably, as you suggest, in full knowledge of the OPCW's cautious interim report.

Russia vetoed the JIM, but the OPCW is now able to assign responsibility, although it may not be able to do so in this case. Nevertheless, and this is a mistake that has been made before on this talk page, it is irrelevant whether or not the OPCW has assigned responsibility, because its primary job is to determine whether or not a chemical attack has taken place at all. It has not yet done that, which is why it refers to the "alleged" use of chemical weapons etc, without regard to which party may have used them, if they were used. It has found chlorinated organic substances, the presence of which can be explained in a number of ways but no sarin, as had been alleged and as was used to justify the US,UK and French bombing of Syria. The situation is therefore highly political and the decision is of great consequence, but our task is to remain as impartial as possible.

WP:WORDS is clear that in criminal cases, we should use expressions of doubt "when wrongdoing is asserted but undetermined," so surely the same principle applies here? As previously mentioned, Use of chemical weapons in the Syrian Civil War refers to the recent alleged chemical attack in Aleppo as "suspected," but what is even more difficult to reconcile with this article's current editorial position, Douma, Syria refers to a "suspected chemical attack" and links to this article!

Also, since the OPCW report, I think it is noticeable that reliable sources, such as the Guardian, have increasingly used expressions of doubt while most UK sources, including the BBC, have done so from the beginning and continue to do so. We all have different opinions about what happened and we may not even agree with whatever conclusion the OPCW reaches, but it seems to me that in the interests of impartiality, consistency, and common practice amongst reliable sources, we should accept its authority when deciding whether or not to use expressions of doubt in respect of alleged CW use, both before and after it has reached a verdict. Kiwicherryblossom (talk) 20:49, 17 December 2018 (UTC)

Chlorine is a chemical weapon

Chlorine gas is a chemical weapon. Here are some sources relevant to the Douma chemical attack:

• Syrian conflict: Chlorine used in Douma attack that left dozens of civilians dead, chemical weapons watchdog finds
• Syria war: What we know about Douma 'chemical attack'
• Interim OPCW report finds proof of chlorine used in Syria's Douma
• Chlorine used for chemical weapons attack in Syria’s Douma - OPCW interim report
• Chemical weapons watchdog finds ‘chlorinated chemicals’ in Douma, site of attack by Syrian regime
• Chlorine used in Syria's Douma, no trace of nerve agent, Interim OPCW report finds
• Chlorine used in Syria's Douma, but no evidence of nerve agents, OPCW finds
• Chemical Weapons Agency Finds 'Chlorinated' Chemicals in Syria's Douma

Having now read a few dozen sources, I'm left with two questions:

1. Have chemical weapons been used in Syria in the recent past?
2. Base on the evidence presented in the body of available, reliable sources, is it more likely or less likely that chemical weapons were used in the Douma attack?

Regardless of whether some sources straddle the issue using words like "suspected", "alleged", or "reported", we have to use editorial discretion to come up with our own way of summarizing the subject in an objective, encyclopedic way. The arguments in favor of using weasel words are not compelling, and simply repeating the arguments over and over is not changing that.- MrX 🖋 12:45, 12 December 2018 (UTC)

Thank you MrX for doing the work to come up with these sources. I also agree completely with your comment that "we have to use editorial discretion to come up with our own way of summarizing the subject in an objective, encyclopedic way." -Darouet (talk) 14:45, 12 December 2018 (UTC)

@Darouet:@MrX: We do have to use editorial discretion. In this case, the claim that the OPCW has found proof of chlorine being used as a chemical weapon is known to be false, so articles that make this claim are not reliable sources. "Weasel words are words and phrases aimed at creating an impression that something specific and meaningful has been said, when in fact only a vague or ambiguous claim has been communicated." This exactly defines the misrepresentation of the OPCW report in some of the articles referenced by MrX . The OPCW interim report merely says that it found chlorinated compounds at the site, and given that these chemicals have a wide range of domestic uses, this cannot be taken as and was not offered by the OPCW as proof of their use in a military attack. Therefore, like the OPCW and all reliable reports of the OPCW's findings, we must use expressions of doubt such as "alleged" or "suspected". To do otherwise is to use weasel words. Kiwicherryblossom (talk) 20:06, 12 December 2018 (UTC)

Your opening link (to a Wikipedia article, which is not a WP:RS) is a distortion; chlorine gas can be used as a chemical weapon is more accurate.

Despite their headlines, all of your news sources are actually saying that the substances found at the site were "chlorinated substances", not uncompounded elemental chlorine. Loads of everyday objects and materials (kitchen cleaning materials, refrigerators, various plastics, weedkillers, the list is endless) contain compounds of chlorine; that's not the same as chlorine gas. Note that chlorine gas will disperse in an hour or so; inspectors arriving months later will find no chlorine gas. Chlorine gas might react with materials it's exposed to to create chlorine compounds; after all it's a highly reactive substance. Chlorine gas will readily react with moisture in the air to form hydrochloric acid. But none of your sources suggest that these substances were 'chlorinated' because they were once exposed to chlorine gas.

Despite the fact that ignorant sub-editors have chosen to headline their articles so as to suggest that a chlorine gas attack occurred, the OPCW did not in fact say that; and nor do your sources, if you read on one or two sentences past the headline. If the headline misrepresents the substance of the article, you can't just ignore the substance, and rely solely on the headline as your source.

"Chlorinated substances" is not weasel-words, by the way; it's the words used in the OPCW report (the report that these so-called journalists are supposedly summarising). Saying that because chlorinated substances were found, therefore a chlorine gas attack must have occurred, is reckless, ill-informed synthesis by click-bait hacks.

BTW I have no idea why the OPCW reported on the presence of chlorinated substances at the site; they would have found chlorinated substances if they had looked in my bathroom (which, for the record, has never been the target of a chemical attack). It seems likely to me that politics may have played a part in their decision to use that term. MrDemeanour (talk) 14:50, 12 December 2018 (UTC)

I agree with @MrDemeanour: We cannot regard articles that misrepresent the OPCW interim report as reliable sources.Kiwicherryblossom (talk) 20:06, 12 December 2018 (UTC)

Most of these sources say chlorine was used in the Douma attacks based on the OPCW report. That is in addition to the eye witness accounts. The fact that chlorine is not always used as a chemical weapon is an unhelpful distraction.- MrX 🖋 15:11, 12 December 2018 (UTC)

The Independent, Al Jazeera and Middle East Eye make the demonstrably false claim that the OPCW said chlorine was used in the Douma attack. The eye-witnesses are not neutral and they say different things. Most eye witnesses remaining in Douma after it had been retaken by the Syrian government said there was no chemical attack, while most of those who left with the Jihadist rebels said otherwise. The fact that chlorine is only very rarely used as a chemical weapon, but commonly used for domestic purposes all over the world is not an unhelpful distraction.Kiwicherryblossom (talk) 20:27, 12 December 2018 (UTC)

Chlorine gas has been used not at all "very rarely", but indeed extensively as a chemical weapon in Syria. We list scores of examples here. Long lived reaction products of Cl2 such as TCA that were found at the impact locations (identified as chlorine barrel bombs by the commission) are by no means common outside of a laboratory (or perhaps industrial) setting. And no, asphyxiation doesn't cause chlorine smell or corneal burns. VQuakr (talk) 00:26, 13 December 2018 (UTC)

Hi @VQuakr: thank you for your comment, but I think you may have misunderstood my point, which was that chlorine (including chlorinated organic compounds) is used for domestic or industrial purposes far more often than for chemical warfare. This means that the chlorinated organic compounds found are statistically more likely to have been used for domestic or industrial than military purposes, which is why I replied to MrX that referring to the domestic uses of chlorine "is not an unhelpful distraction".

I can't really comment about the likely domestic or industrial use of the specific chemicals, but it is certain that they do not exclusively indicate their use as a weapon and they are not scheduled substances. I'm not sure what you mean by the commission. I agree that asphyxiation doesn't cause chlorine smell or corneal burns, but the French government is not really a neutral or reliable source in the context of Syria.

As to your main point, it is obviously a matter of dispute as to how often chlorine has been used as a chemical weapon, but I notice that the most recent chlorine attack is described in your WP link Use of chemical weapons in the Syrian Civil War as a "SUSPECTED chlorine attack". Clearly if we use an expressions of doubt for an as yet unproven chemical attack in one Wikipedia article, we should do so in this one? We have to be consistent, so I hope, this time, you will agree with me that we must use expressions of doubt in this article. Kiwicherryblossom (talk) 10:01, 13 December 2018 (UTC)

It is not true that the claims of these sources that chlorine was used are "based on the OPCW report", because the OPCW report says no such thing. The reporters who wrote those articles have not visited the site, and have no evidence to evaluate, other than the OPCW report itself. The testimony of unnamed YouTube activists on the ground is not evidence, and certainly isn't a WP:RS. If that's what your headline-writers are relying on, then we cannot rely on them.

Your sources don't claim that chlorine was used either, for that matter, if you read past the clickbait headline. Hey, it's easy enough to check if I'm telling the truth. MrDemeanour (talk) 15:37, 12 December 2018 (UTC)

Your comment leaves me wondering whether you even read any of the sources before you commented:

"A significant body of information points to the regime using chlorine in its bombardment of Douma, while some additional information points to the regime also using the nerve agent Sarin."
— BBC

"Chlorine was used in an attack on the Syrian city of Douma that killed dozens of civilians in April, the world’s chemical weapons watchdog has found."
— The Independent

The world's chemical weapons watchdog says it has found proof that chlorine was used in an attack in April on the Syrian town of Douma which killed dozens of people, according to medics and rescuers.
— Aljazeera

"The Fact-Finding Mission (FFM) of the Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW) has found chlorine in samples collected near the Syrian town of Douma, the FFM said in an interim report released on Friday."
— TASS

"Along with explosive residues, various chlorinated organic chemicals were found in samples from two sites,” it said in Friday’s report, indicating that chlorine may have been used as a weapon."
— Japan Times

"Preliminary analysis by the world's chemical weapons watchdog found chlorine was used in an attack in Douma, Syria, in April that killed dozens of civilians and prompted air strikes by Britain, France and the United States, it said on Friday."
— Middle East Eye

"Along with explosive residues, various chlorinated organic chemicals were found in samples from two sites," it said, indicating that chlorine may have been used as a weapon."
— U.S. News and World Report

- MrX 🖋 15:54, 12 December 2018 (UTC)

Please note that the first source — the BBC — is quoting US officials in the quote you provided above: it should be attributed to the US Defense Department as reported by the BBC, and not to the BBC itself. The BBC reports in an article a few days before [9], "A report by the chemical weapons watchdog suggests chlorine may have been used in April's suspected chemical attack on the Syrian town of Douma. The interim report by the Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW) said "various chlorinated organic chemicals" had been found (in samples taken from two locations), but there was no evidence of nerve agents."

In the specific BBC article you quote, MrX, [10], the BBC writes: "The chlorinated compounds included those used to treat drinking water, as a disinfectant, a wood preservative, or a flame retardant. However, the same compounds were detected at other sites in Syria where the OPCW has concluded that chlorine was likely used as a weapon, including Saraqeb and Latamina."

The Independent positively declares that the OPCW has found that chlorine was used to attack Douma, as you quote, and the Middle East Eye and Al Jazeera write the same.

However, the other sources you cite, the Japan Times and U.S. News & World Report, use the BBC's language, stating that the finding indicates chlorine could have been used in the attack. -Darouet (talk) 16:39, 12 December 2018 (UTC)

I'm afraid I don't understand your point. Douma was attacked with chlorine and possibly other chemical weapons. I don't see that there is any other reasonable interpretation of the sources. - MrX 🖋 17:12, 12 December 2018 (UTC)

My point is that the OPCW reports they found chlorinated substances, did not find nerve agent, and does not state that Douma was, or was not, attacked by chemical weapons. Reliable sources, to quote the BBC [11], state the OPCW's findings "suggests chlorine may have been used in April's suspected chemical attack." The BBC notes those compounds can be "used to treat drinking water, as a disinfectant," but has also been found at sites where the OPCW has "concluded that chlorine was likely used as a weapon." So both the OPCW and the BBC are unsure: they have evidence that the attack may have occurred, but the evidence available does not allow them to be certain.

Your statement "Douma was attacked with chlorine and possibly other chemical weapons" however conveys certainty. Are you asking Wikipedia to convey your certainty to readers? This would entail ignoring text from reliable sources (e.g. BBC) [12][13][14][15][16] stating that the evidence is suggestive but not clear, but accepting text from other sources (e.g. The Independent) [17][18][19] that declares a chemical attack occurred, period. You're doing real work, finding sources, which is a great help to all of us and to this discussion, and that needs to be recognized. But the analysis you're giving us requires reading only certain phrases implying certainty of culpability, and ignoring phrases expressing doubt and uncertainty. -Darouet (talk) 21:58, 12 December 2018 (UTC)

I agree with Darouet. The case he has put is irrefutable. We must use expressions of doubt in the article as a matter of urgency.Kiwicherryblossom (talk) 00:45, 13 December 2018 (UTC)

Show me the specific phrases that say that the OPCW doubts that Douma was attacked by chemical weapons and we can have a discussion about that. My reading of the sources is that Douma was almost certainly attacked by chemical weapons, chlorine gas being at least one of them.- MrX 🖋 22:13, 12 December 2018 (UTC)

I'll show you some @MrX: The title of this BBC report referenced by Darouet, provides this specific phrase expressing the OPCW's doubts. The title says. "A report by the chemical weapons watchdog SUGGESTS chlorine MAY HAVE BEEN used in April's SUSPECTED chemical attack on the Syrian town of Douma." "May have been" and "suspected" are expressions of doubt, as to a lesser extent is 'suggests'.

Here are some specific phrases expressing doubt from the OPCW report itself. These are direct quotes.

"This document contains an update on the work of the OPCW Fact-Finding Mission in Syria (FFM) regarding the ALLEGED use of toxic chemicals as a weapon in Douma, the Syrian Arab Republic, on 7 April 2018."

"On 10 April 2018, the Secretariat and the Permanent Representation of the Syrian Arab Republic to the OPCW exchanged notes verbales regarding the urgent dispatch of an FFM team to Damascus to gather facts regarding the incident of ALLEGED use of toxic chemicals as a weapon in Douma on 7 April 2018".

"Security and access to the sites of the ALLEGED INCIDENTS"

"The aim of the FFM, as specified in mandate FFM/050/18, was to gather facts regarding the incident of ALLEGED" use of toxic chemicals as a weapon on 7 April 2018 in Douma, eastern Ghouta, the Syrian Arab Republic, as reported in the media.

"On 7 April 2018, reports began to circulate on social media and in the press regarding an ALLEGED chemical attack."

The word "alleged" is an expression of doubt. Kiwicherryblossom (talk) 10:01, 13 December 2018 (UTC)

References

"Douma was attacked with chlorine and possibly other chemical weapons."

Well anyone can make bald POV assertions like that. Try this: "The only body in a position to have evidence about the use or otherwise of chemical weapons in Douma is the OPCW, which has clearly stated that no such evidence exists." Oh look - my utterance is not POV at all, because it cites the only half-way reliable source available.

TASS is not a RS. I don't think that either AlJaz or ME Eye are considered RS either. US News is not a journal I know much about, WP says they are nowadays best-known not for international reporting, but for ranking academic institutions.

And exactly none of these organs has had a reporter on the ground in Douma; they are all relying on either the OPCW, or on some other scruffy rag that is relying on the OPCW, or they have simply made it up. Only the OPCW has inspected the site.

When the Indy says that the OPCW found that chlorine was 'used', they are simply lying; that's the opposite of what the OPCW said unless they meant that chlorine was used to purify drinking water, in the form of hypochlorite (which I think is the 'chlorinated substance' usually used for that purpose). Yes, that's right - tap-water also contains chlorinated substances. MrDemeanour (talk) 17:56, 12 December 2018 (UTC)

No. Just no.- MrX 🖋 18:32, 12 December 2018 (UTC)

@MrX: "No just no" is not an argument.

I agree with @MrDemeanour: and @Darouet:. They are plainly correct. The OPCW report absolutely does not claim that chlorine was used as a chemical weapon. It simply says that chlorinated compounds were found, and as MrDemeanour points out, Chlorinated compounds have a multitude of domestic uses. In respect of the collected samples the report mostly says "no CWC scheduled chemicals detected" or something similar. The Independent, Al Jazeera and Middle East Eye articles made undeniably false claims, so obviously those specific articles must not be used as sources.

The OPCW refers to "an alleged chemical attack" and "the alleged use of toxic chemicals"; it is self-evident that we should do likewise if Wikipedia is to be a trusted source of information.

There appears to be a developing consensus for using expressions of doubt in the article. I move we edit the article accordingly. Kiwicherryblossom (talk) 00:45, 13 December 2018 (UTC)

You agree with everyone who agrees with your opinion about this content. What a surprise. I will not respond to someone who dismisses reliable sources that we use in 1000s of cites throughout Wikipedia. Anyway, I'm done arguing about this. I presented actual sources that are crystal clear on the matter. I rest my case. Feel free to argue with the others on this page if you wish.- MrX 🖋 00:54, 13 December 2018 (UTC)

Obviously I agree with people who agree with me! How can I not? You agree with BobFromBrockley, VQuakr and Volunteer Marek on a regular basis and, guess what? They agree with you.

I might disagree with reliable sources if they are wrong, (as were some of the sources referring to the OPCW report), but I will usually give my reasons. Please can you provide me with an example of a reliable source that I have dismissed?

I'm afraid you have presented actual sources that are either clearly factually incorrect or which, upon close scrutiny, do not support your case. Please look at the examples of expressions of doubt you asked for above.

Incidentally, do you understand yet that the quote you gave earlier, "A significant body of information points to the regime using chlorine in its bombardment of Douma, while some additional information points to the regime also using the nerve agent Sarin."|source=BBC}} is a direct quote from the US government report, not the view of the BBC? You can read the whole report here to confirm this. It was you, not MrDemeanour, that didn't read your own sources. You owe him an apology.

Actually it is true that I didn't read the sources cited by MrX sufficiently closely; in particular, I missed the sense of the opening sentence of the Independent article, possibly because deep in my soul I couldn't believe that organ would perpetrate such a bare-faced piece of propaganda and mendacity. And I certainly didn't read closely those organs I've never heard of, like that Japanese paper. So my claim that none of them said that a chlorine gas attack had occurred was false, and I withdraw it. Some of them clearly did say that. They were just wrong or lying, based on the one source that they were all relying on. MrDemeanour (talk) 16:50, 13 December 2018 (UTC)

References

Fair enough @MrDemeanour:. Very honest of you. Mr X had clearly misunderstood the BBC source, but, I guess he doesn’t owe you an apology! Yes, it is barely believable that the Independent would lie so egregiously, but they appear to have done so, unless the journalist responsible hadn’t bothered to read the OPCW report. Nevertheless, the media usually use expressions of doubt about Douma, especially after the OPCW report.

VQuakr linked to the WP article Use of chemical weapons in the Syrian Civil War. It’s a list of ‘chemical attacks’, and the most recent incident is correctly described as a "suspected chlorine attack". It makes the resistance to describing the Douma attack as ‘suspected’ or ‘alleged’ even more difficult to justify. Kiwicherryblossom (talk) 05:23, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

Kiwi, you are transparently ignoring editors and sources that do not agree with you. You clearly do not have consensus for your proposed change. VQuakr (talk) 02:43, 13 December 2018 (UTC)

Mr Quakr, you are projecting. I do not ignore editors or sources. Quite the opposite. I always try to examine sources and discuss matters with editors, although I don't always get a constructive response. In an earlier discussion you even criticised me for being "editor-focussed". You can't have it both ways. Perhaps you could give me an example of a source or an editor you think I have ignored?

I said there appears to be a developing consensus, I did not claim to have consensus.

Again, I note that in your comment above, VQuakr (talk) 00:26, 13 December 2018 (UTC), you link to another WP article,here in which the latest alleged chemical attack, in Aleppo, is described as "suspected" and the chemical attack allegedly carried out by Turkey on the Syrian Democratic Forces in February uses the term "SOHR suspects". It is difficult to see why we should use "suspected" or other expressions of doubt with some unproven (by the OPCW) chemical attacks and not others. Please can you explain this inconsistency? Kiwicherryblossom (talk) 10:01, 13 December 2018 (UTC)

[20]. Avoid repetition. Avoid repetition. VQuakr (talk) 16:34, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

Very droll, VQ, but misplaced. This was the original comment on your linked article. I repeated it in a shortened form under the "suspected" sub-heading because I thought you might prefer that location. I was only thinking of you. See reply above. Kiwicherryblossom (talk) 00:55, 15 December 2018 (UTC)

It applies either way, and to a great many of your posts (not just two). VQuakr (talk) 01:43, 15 December 2018 (UTC)

I usually have to repeat things for you VQ. Kiwicherryblossom (talk) 07:14, 16 December 2018 (UTC)