Talk:British Association for Immediate Care

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Don't Delete

I am new to wikipedia and was just testing out how to use the different functions. I have now learnt how to use it properly and now working on the page.
I am still working on the page every so often when i have time, so contribution are welcome in the meantime.

No grounds for speedy delete - This page is of notability - if in need of attention from an experienced editor. Page should stay. Owain.davies 13:54, 16 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Fair use rationale for Image:Basicslogo2.jpg

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BetacommandBot 04:50, 1 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Now added fair use rationale to image. Owain.davies 17:37, 1 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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Image:Nurseppe.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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British Associarion for Immediate Care

Why the reversion to the previous inaccurate page? As the Chairman of BASICS I strongly object to a Wiki page being hosted that containes a very significant number of inaccuracies regarding the British Association for Immediate Care. BASICS HQ (talk) 16:29, 31 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@BASICS HQ: Your edits were largely promotional and sourced only to your own website. This is not acceptable.

Wikipedia has no interest in what an organization wants to say about itself or how it wishes to be portrayed. An organization has no right of ownership or editorial control over the content of its own article, or any related topic. Content is arrived at by consensus; it must be sourced from reliable and independent sources, and written from a neutral point of view. Your website is a valid primary source but should be used sparingly and for basic facts.

As you have a clear conflict of interest, we advise you not to edit the article directly. Rather you should suggest edits on this talk page with the {{request edit}} template. An uninvolved editor will review your changes and either post them or suggest revisions. This is, of course, predicated on your dealing with the matter of your username, and making any necessary disclosures relating to Wikipedia policy on paid editing. --Drm310 🍁 (talk) 18:58, 31 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, I would strongly dispute the self promotional aspect. I revised a totally inacurate page that has missing citations and draws on a refeerence to an unassociated organisation in describing the Associations role. The facts I provided were basic facts and all by their nature require referencing back to the Association. You will recognise my username has been amended and that it clearly includes my unpaid role with regard to BASICS.— Preceding unsigned comment added by AEK1961 (talk • contribs) 19:47, 31 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

British Association for Immediate Care

Good evening, I was previously logged on as BASICS_HQ having joined last evening on finding the BASICS page which contained inaccurate and misleading information. You have now rejected my changes and rolled the pages back so that once again misleading and wrong information is provided, you will note I fully referenced my edit to support the accuracy of the page. The various rules are misleading and far from transparent only becoming notified once an admin has decided you have infringed them which is most frustrating and frankly unfair. The page urgently needs revision to reflect the true role and function of the Association, please advise. AEK1961 (talk) 19:04, 31 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@AEK1961: Thanks for clarifying your affiliation with this organization. Please have a look at Template:Request edit#How to use; I am confident that following this method will result in a more satisfactory outcome for everyone. --Drm310 🍁 (talk) 20:22, 31 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Some proposed changes

In so doing I should explain some of the concerns that underpin the current page. The original author(s) habve mistakenly muddled different BASICS organisations within this listing: BASICS as the focus of this article is a registered charity as cited but is not a limited company. This seems to be drawn from mistakenly identifying a separate legal limited company (& not a charity) BASICS Education with BASICS.

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Infobox - Limited company PLEASE REMOVE, does not apply (see Charity Commission registration https://apps.charitycommission.gov.uk/Showcharity/RegisterOfCharities/CharityWithoutPartB.aspx?RegisteredCharityNumber=276054&SubsidiaryNumber=0)

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Infobox - leader_title3 = Chair of Trading & Education- PLEASE remove, this is a seperate limited company NOT PART of BASICS the charity.

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Infobox - leader_name2 = Dr Andy Pountney (Please include professional title)

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Infobox - leader_name3 = Peter Holden (PLEASE remove, this is a seperate limited company NOT PART of BASICS the charity.)

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Infobox - affiliations Plainlist. Please remove - this is incomplete list, I would suggest that a full list be provided within the article

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Infobox - Many Air Amblances (This is untrue, only one Scheme with a HEMS service is affliated - MAGPAS Helimedix, others have individuals working for them who are BASICS members)

BASICS also encourages immediate care schemes to strengthen and develop co-operation between schemes providing immediate care and the statutory emergency services

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and to raise standards of care and training. This includes through the exchange of information and cooperation. (THIS REFLECTS THE WIDER ROLE OF BASICS AND WHEN TAKEN IN CONTEXT WITH THE NEXT EDIT SUGGESTION MAKES BETTER SENSE)

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BASICS as an organisation does not in its self provide immediate care, this is undertaken by its affiliated schemes. BASICS is also a membership association and this was reflected in its change of name from the BRitish Association of Immediate Care Schemes to the British Association for immediate Care in 1980 (REF: https://apps.charitycommission.gov.uk/Showcharity/RegisterOfCharities/CharityFramework.aspx?RegisteredCharityNumber=276054&SubsidiaryNumber=0

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Information to be added or removed: region = Nationwide (United Kingdom) Explanation of issue: see Charity Commission registration, BASICS is registered with the Charity Commission as operating in England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland References supporting change: https://apps.charitycommission.gov.uk/Showcharity/RegisterOfCharities/CharityWithoutPartB.aspx?RegisteredCharityNumber=276054&SubsidiaryNumber=0

— Preceding unsigned comment added by AEK1961 (talk • contribs) 18:49, 2 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@AEK1961: I have removed a large amount of the text that you posted, so that other editors might more easily be able to see your eight actual requested edits. Please post more requests as you see fit. Drchriswilliams (talk) 20:29, 2 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@AEK1961: I have marked several completed requests as answered. Drchriswilliams (talk) 20:39, 2 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@AEK1961: I have also marked a request as declined. Drchriswilliams (talk) 20:57, 2 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The remainder have been answered. The COI editor is asked in the future to leave one instance of the {{request edit}} template open, and to place multiple requests as a numbered list underneath it. Regards, Spintendo 22:58, 2 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks, apologies really find the whole process very unintuiative and confusing. I cannot find which one has been declined. Note that the geographical area remains England - do I need to resubmit this? Thanks AEK1961 (talk) 23:12, 2 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@AEK1961:I had deleted the request about information in the region field on the Infobox- this was done in error, while trying to pick relevant text out of your submission where you had copied the entire content of the article onto the talk page and added bits of text in at various places. I have added the request at the end of the list of requests. I have declined this on the basis that there needs to be further information supplied to substantiate the claims. Drchriswilliams (talk) 12:21, 3 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. the issue is quite simple. As a charity based in England we are registered with the Charity Commission for England and Wales,our entry states that we are also registered for our activities in Scotland and Northern Ireland ref: http://beta.charitycommission.gov.uk/charity-details/?regid=276054&subid=0. the web site defines its regions by locality if someone is registered forinstance as working in Kent, or as England if working in England, if working in England and Wales and the rest of the UK then only states Scotland and Northern Ireland but the map shows the extent of our registration - England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. — Preceding unsigned comment added by AEK1961 (talk • contribs) 13:18, 3 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Some proposed changes

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1. Limited company - BASICS in common with other organisations has a number of interests and subsidery activities, this is clear on our Charities Commission page (http://beta.charitycommission.gov.uk/charity-details/?regid=276054&subid=0) which states that "this charity has one or more trading subsidiaries'. These are both registered as separate Limited companies at companies house (https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/03553177 and https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/03555825) but are not registered as part of the charity - hence it is false to state that BASICS is a Limited Company, it is not. The footer mention is because in common with other organisations one website represents the entry portal to all of our combined activities. 2. That BASICS does not provide clinical care, this being undertaken by its affiliated schemes. BASICS is clearly shown to be an umbrella organisation on the Charities Commission website (http://beta.charitycommission.gov.uk/charity-details/?regid=276054&subid=0). Further the independant status of our schemes as registered charities in their own right demonstrates this for example - LIVES (http://beta.charitycommission.gov.uk/charity-details/?regid=1098364&subid=0) WM Care Team (http://beta.charitycommission.gov.uk/charity-details/?regid=1129027&subid=0) North Staffs BASICS Doctors (http://beta.charitycommission.gov.uk/charity-details/?regid=1044785&subid=0) etc. Additionally, our own website makes our role clear, nowhere does it describe that BASICS delivers clinical care but rather fosters/supports etc this via our affiliated Schemes (https://www.basics.org.uk/about-us/). Trust this clarifies. 3. Andy Pountney - Dr Pountney has, like you, worked hard to achieve his professional title. 4. BASICS operates across the UK - To state that BASICS operates only in England is wrong. As a charity based in England we are registered with the Charity Commission for England and Wales, however, our entry states that our activities are also in Scotland and Northern Ireland ref: http://beta.charitycommission.gov.uk/charity-details/?regid=276054&subid=0. Referring to our website information on affiliated Schemes shows activity in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland (https://www.basics.org.uk/schemes/), as you will appreciate I cannot share membership details due to GDPR but we also have a number of individual members domiciled and working in all of the non-English Regions.

Thank you AEK1961 (talk) 14:37, 3 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Reply 03-JAN-2018

You have not stated what it is about BASICS (being listed as both subsidiary AND a separate limited company) which makes it false to say that BASICS is a limited company. Please clarify.
You have not stated what it is about being an umbrella organization, which prevents that organization from generally being described as providing care that a subsidiary provides.
The fact that Dr. Pountney works hard is irrelevant to the community's consensus which has decided how the use of honorifics such as "Dr." are to be effected in Wikipedia. Surely Dr. Pountney is cognizant and respectful of other organizations' ability to administer rules which govern their own internal workings.
The |region=Britain infobox parameter has been replaced with the |region=United Kingdom parameter.

Regards, Spintendo 16:56, 3 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for recognising that BASICS is a UK wide charitable organisation.

1. The British Association for Immediate Care (BASICS), BASICS Education Ltd and BASICS Trading Ltd are three entirely separate legal entities each individually registered with the appropriate UK authority. BASICS is a registered charity (http://beta.charitycommission.gov.uk/charity-details/?regid=276054&subid=0), it is not a Limited Company. BASICS Education Ltd is a separate registered limited company, and not a charity (https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/03553177). Similarly, BASICS Trading Ltd is also a separate registered limited company that is also not a charity (https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/03555825). To therefore refer to BASICS as a limited company is factually inaccurate both by title and legal definition. 2. That BASICS does not provide clinical care, this being undertaken by its affiliated schemes. BASICS is clearly shown to be an umbrella organisation on the Charities Commission website (http://beta.charitycommission.gov.uk/charity-details/?regid=276054&subid=0). Further the independant status of our schemes as registered charities in their own right demonstrates this for example - LIVES (http://beta.charitycommission.gov.uk/charity-details/?regid=1098364&subid=0) WM Care Team (http://beta.charitycommission.gov.uk/charity-details/?regid=1129027&subid=0) North Staffs BASICS Doctors (http://beta.charitycommission.gov.uk/charity-details/?regid=1044785&subid=0) etc. Additionally, our own website makes our role clear, nowhere does it describe that BASICS delivers clinical care but rather fosters/supports etc this via our affiliated Schemes (https://www.basics.org.uk/about-us/). an umbrella organisation, we support and coordinate the affiliated Schemes. Each of these, as demonstrated by the examples previously given, are separately registered charitable organisations with their own board of trustees ie they are not owned or managed by BASICS. Direct care is delivered by these schemes and to do this they have to be registered with the UK's Care Quality Commission or taken into the governance framework of the relevant Ambulance Service. BASICS does not, has never and will not be responsible for the provision or delivery of patient care. In this respect, the regulatory term 'umbrella organisation' defines an overarching association or organisation that represents the wider interests of its affiliates (http://beta.charitycommission.gov.uk/charity-details/?regid=276054&subid=0). To therefore claim that BASICS delivers care is misleading to its role and the role of the affiliated Schemes. 3. I do not follow your logic, throughout Wikipedia there are countless examples of individuals receiving acknowledgement of their professional titles ie Dr Prof etc. With respect, the rules governing Wikipedias internal working are confusing and far from transparent to outsiders. AEK1961 (talk) 17:47, 3 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Some proposed changes

It is requested that an edit be made to the semi-protected article at A. (edit · history · last · links · protection log)

This template must be followed by a complete and specific description of the request, that is, specify what text should be removed and a verbatim copy of the text that should replace it. "Please change X" is not acceptable and will be rejected; the request must be of the form "please change X to Y".

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My apologies if this is considered inappropriate - I am not sure whether previous questions and my replies contribute to the editorial process or given the lack of response over 24-hrs means I need to re-propose the changes with the further information required.

1. In the infobox the term limited company remains. From my editoruial submissions yesterday on this matter the text of the first paragraph has been edited to recognise that BASICS is a charity and that the two subsidary and completlyy seperate companies are the Limited companies. Can the "limited company' label be removed from the info box to complete the edit. The British Association for Immediate Care (BASICS), BASICS Education Ltd and BASICS Trading Ltd are three entirely separate legal entities each individually registered with the appropriate UK authority. BASICS is a registered charity (http://beta.charitycommission.gov.uk/charity-details/?regid=276054&subid=0), it is not a Limited Company. BASICS Education Ltd is a separate registered limited company, and not a charity (https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/03553177). Similarly, BASICS Trading Ltd is also a separate registered limited company that is also not a charity (https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/03555825). To therefore refer to BASICS as a limited company is factually inaccurate both by title and legal definition. 2. Edit the section header 'Local Application' to 'The role of the affiliated Schemes' - this would remove much of the inference that BASICS directly provides clinical care. 3. Please further edit the text to remove the inference that BASICS delivers direct clinical care, we do not, we are an umbrella organisation, who supports and coordinate the affiliated Schemes. Each of these, as demonstrated by the examples previously given, are separately registered charitable organisations with their own board of trustees ie they are not owned or managed by BASICS. Direct care is delivered by these schemes and to do this they have to be registered with the UK's Care Quality Commission or taken into the governance framework of the relevant Ambulance Service. BASICS does not, has never and will not be responsible for the provision or delivery of patient care. In this respect, the regulatory term 'umbrella organisation' defines an overarching association or organisation that represents the wider interests of its affiliates (http://beta.charitycommission.gov.uk/charity-details/?regid=276054&subid=0). To therefore claim that BASICS delivers care is misleading to its role and the role of the affiliated Schemes. 4. In the 2nd sentence of the opening paragraph amend 'The organisation relies on volunteer medical professionals and allied health professions to . . .' to read 'The organisation relies on volunteer medical, nursing and allied health professions to . . .' This reflects the role of nurses who as a profession are recognised outside of the grouping 'allied medical professionals' as indicated by the pages own in text link. 5. Edit the text 'BASICS can supplement the skill set available at scene with a medical doctor' in the final sentance of the section Local applications to 'BASICS can supplement the skill set available at scene with a medical doctor, nurse or critical-care paramedic'. (NB. it is important to specify a critical care paramedic as the skills brought are always above that of standard paramedic care) - this change is supported by the information on the page itself where it states that Shemes are using all these groups in the final sentance of the history section.

Thank you

AEK1961 (talk) 17:32, 4 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Your concerns are not able to be handled with a simple edit request. Please contact Wikipedia directly regarding your concerns with this article. Spintendo 19:12, 4 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I believe the concerns that have been raised have standing, and are able to be implemented by WP:CON.

As separate legal entities entirely, and the fact that by consensus the article is focused on the charitable avenue, it would make sense and encourage continuity in this to update the infobox accordingly. I shall leave it to WP:CON to make that call, however.
I don't personally believe that "Local Application" changing will change the understanding to the reader of how BASICS operate. The first line of the purpose section explicitly defines BASICS as an association of HCPs. That being said, the rewording of the naming of a section, causes no harm (in a similar replacement situation, as this is), and therefore I have changed the naming accordingly.
I have attempted to provide clarification between the BASICS association, and it's schemes.
I, and many other people would class nursing staff as HCPs, I'm not sure that explicitly specifying nursing staff is required, and I feel it may come across as a promotional "look at us" style addition.
See 3.

KiloSierraCharlie^talk 22:51, 4 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

As an extra to 4. I'm not getting at "look at us" from nursing staff, but potentially from the BASICS standpoint. I understand that you're a nurse, and you may feel that you don't get recognition within the article or maybe the PHEM/PHEC community. I amended the "The Role of Affiliated BASICS Schemes" section to include nursing staff, along with community first responders. KiloSierraCharlie^talk 22:58, 4 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you

The issue is not with HCPs, that does incl nurses. The term used is allied health professionals. If you follow the link from that within the page it is in itself self explanitory (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_health_professions). As can be seen, certain healthcare professions are recognised within this framework, nursing is not one of them. Like medicine, nursing is an autonemous profession. Nothing self promotional about this, simply a matter of accuracy. ——- — Preceding unsigned comment added by AEK1961 (talk • contribs) 19:21, 5 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@AEK1961

2x Edits made.

1. Removed the wording of Allied Health Professionals and Nurse within the introduction of the article. Health professional (Linked as "medical professionals") encapsulates both.

2. Removed explicitly explaining which schemes use CFRs. Modified the wording as not to sound like most schemes make use of CFRs. Appreciate there is potential COI, but in this scenario I don't believe it to take weight on the edit.

I appreciate that the definition of AHP does not include nursing staff, but Health professional did. Since the only roles I could spot in AHP was Paramedic and EMT (soon AAP), I've reduced to prevent confusion.

KiloSierraCharlie^talk 18:41, 6 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]