Jump to content

Talk:21 Savage

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by ForgotMyPW (talk | contribs) at 00:09, 6 February 2019 (→Nationality). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

WikiProject iconBiography: Musicians Start‑class
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography
StartThis article has been rated as Start-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.
Taskforce icon
This article is supported by WikiProject Musicians.

Don't think the 10/22/1994 DOB is accurate

While this may not be a passable source, I tend to believe the birthdate (10/22/1992) listed therein is accurate. A reasonably credible source, XXL Magazine, corroborated that he was born earlier than 1994 by listing his age as 22 in an interview from 10/9/2015.

Furthermore, he has a song that refers to events that happened "when I was 21" that was on YouTube on what would have been before his 21st birthday (7/3/2015) if the 1994 date were accurate. He also sent out a tweet on his last birthday (his 21st if the 1994 date were accurate) implying that he was older than 21.

Given these context clues, I went ahead and changed the birthday year to 1992 (with the same date) and sourced the XXL interview.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by DJ11 (talk • contribs) 23:05, 19 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

http://jnryfirst.com/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Musicinfo1989 (talk • contribs) 11:31, 13 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
https://www.wsbtv.com/news/local/ice-arrests-rapper-21-savage-says-hes-actually-from-uk/914024181 — Preceding unsigned comment added by HrBz7TM74PhxgzW (talk • contribs) 20:51, 3 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
don’t think he was born in the US — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:387:5:803::7f (talk) 21:14, 3 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Personal life section should read "seventh grade"

Producer WAJU http://jnryfirst.com/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Musicinfo1989 (talk • contribs) 11:33, 13 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

In the song "No heart" as well as the sources cited, the grade mentioned is seventh not sixth. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nolanz2 (talk • contribs) 23:02, 20 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Should add horrorcore to genre

With his usual subject matter, I think it would be safe to add horrorcore as well as trap and hip hop Snowbunnyjosh (talk) 02:12, 25 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 8 January 2017

There's no such thing as Panthersville Middle School. Just say he got expelled in middle school and got sent to DeKalb Regional Youth Detention Center, which is off of Panthersville Rd. 2601:1C2:C00:5D5E:F931:4BFF:88A6:899C (talk) 20:08, 8 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for pointing out this error. I have removed the reference to Panthersville Middle School, which seems to be unsupported by the source I can most easily access. I haven't mentioned Dekalb because we don't seem to have sources for that, but hopefully it is not important. MPS1992 (talk) 20:18, 8 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 5 February 2017

73.96.107.122 (talk) 07:36, 5 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. DRAGON BOOSTER ★ 07:41, 5 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

There should be a section about the shootout he was involved in where he lost his best friend. Justinscott24 (talk) 22:04, 28 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

There should be a mention of sneakin as it was his first crossover hit. Justinscott24 (talk) 22:04, 28 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 27 August 2017

21savagess (talk) 21 savage has been dating Amber Rose since 2017.
Already done — IVORK Discuss 14:36, 27 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 10 October 2017

96.82.222.173 (talk) 15:54, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
Mason Rothstein is his first cousin[reply]
Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. Nihlus 21:32, 10 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 26 November 2017

Where is the picture for 21 Savage? I wanna put a pic up of him! Debesht2 (talk) 17:56, 26 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. JTP (talk • contribs) 21:15, 26 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 3 June 2018

Can someone add a new photo of 21 savage to this page, thanks. 211.27.31.129 (talk) 02:46, 3 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: A picture containing all the appropriate licensing must be already uploaded to Wikipedia and approved for use, for it to be added to the article. .spintendo  02:53, 3 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 3 February 2019

21 savage is from UK 12.158.56.242 (talk) 21:40, 3 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. DannyS712 (talk) 21:45, 3 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-47111577 - the BBC just released a report on this, referencing this article, which is probably where all these IP's are coming from -- NoCOBOL (talk) 22:01, 3 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
 Partly done: The article now states that 21 Savage is based (not born) in Atlanta, and mentions the UK citizenship allegations. Thanks for contributing to Wikipedia! — Newslinger talk 09:09, 4 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 3 February 2019

Change his birthplace to London U.K 134.41.174.51 (talk) 21:47, 3 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done We need a reliable source for his birth place before we can change it here. Iffy★Chat -- 21:56, 3 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I think the ICE is a pretty reliable source... 21savlol (talk) 22:51, 3 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 3 February 2019

As 21 Savage is not an American citizen, his race should be stated as Afro-Caribbean, not African American. Whitegirl666 (talk) 21:58, 3 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

​ Partly done: The article no longer describes 21 Savage as African American. Thanks for contributing to Wikipedia! — Newslinger talk 09:27, 4 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Article rewrite

It appears that a lot of what is here is fictional. He's not even a US citizen. A lot of rewriting will be needed. -- That Guy, From That Show! 22:08, 3 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

We don't know everything yet. We must wait for further details or another statement from the ICE people to make definitive edits. 21 is still in custody at the time of writing. The brave celery (talk) 22:23, 3 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

To say we need more information is a slap in the face to anyone who believes in reliable sources. This isn't some random allegation coming from one individual person, this is a clear indictment from the agency responsible for determining who is and is not a legal resident and citizen of The United States of America. 21 Savage is apparently not in fact Atlanta born, nor is he even American. He's a man who pretended to be those things, while actually being from the U.K. To call this a rumor or something that needs more evidence is laughable. He would not be detained by ICE in the first place if he were an American born citizen (let alone a celebrity). To quote an unnamed official interviewed by CNN's Nick Valencia (one of their most reliable reporters and someone with extensive contacts in ICE), "His whole public persona is false. He actually came to the U.S. from the U.K. as a teen and overstayed his visa." [1] He'll be back in the U.K. by the time his fans face the truth, and they'll still be denying it here on wikipedia. Bit sick of the selective control on this site thanks to fans and partisans. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.3.242.43 (talk) 23:22, 3 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Well, that escalated quickly. --2A00:23C4:3E0F:4400:ECC7:115C:D4F3:C0A6 (talk) 00:19, 4 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not denying his apparent status but we do not know yet whether we need a total rewrite. We are not yet absolutely certain whether he will be deported. The brave celery (talk) 00:54, 4 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

ICE is not a trustworthy source you nerd [2] you're basically quoting the Gestapo — Preceding unsigned comment added by Blabalbla142 (talk • contribs) 06:34, 4 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ https://twitter.com/CNNValencia/status/1092159977781972992
  2. ^ https://nypost.com/2018/04/27/ice-wrongfully-detained-nearly-1500-americans-report/

How can anyone compare ICE to Gestapo? Since when could an organization existing simply to please Republican ideals rather than to remove actual dangerous illegal immigrants be compared to an elitist organization aimed at persecution of Jews?


Anyway, innocent until proven guilty. None of the Suburban-driving weasels at ICE have a modicum of common sense anyway.

Thanks for getting this wiki banned, 8th graders. The amount of gibberish I have seen written on this site in the last 24 hours.... beggars’ belief. Vbolt1 (talk) 22:04, 5 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Remove section on early life

I have already adjusted the lead to omit statements that may be in dispute and that are only backed by primary sources, but I don't want to be too bold by removing an entire section without consultation.

What I am proposing doing is removing the entire early life section until reliable sources can be found to back anything included therein - at the moment, all the sources are based on interviews or are interviews with him, and so to lean on the side of caution can not be considered currently reliable sources in terms of Wikipedia policy. -- NoCOBOL (talk) 23:50, 3 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

21 Savage's lawyer told an Atlanta TV news reporter that 21 went to middle school and high school in ATL. He could have come here during his school-time and enrolled in an ATL school. Just putting this somewhere for reference. https://twitter.com/MarkWinneWSB/status/1092205127300194316 The brave celery (talk) 01:08, 4 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I added the info from the tweet linked above into the early life section. Flop453 (talk) 06:54, 4 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

If middle school in the Florida ends before age 14 (? - when is he alleged to have arrived in the US?) then we have to consider that statement a contentious one from a primary source - the issues in the other sources continue in it, perhaps even more strongly than the others. -- NoCOBOL (talk) 08:04, 4 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I removed the info as WSB-TV has not used it in their published news articles about the incident. Flop453 (talk) 09:31, 4 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

His birth in Newham, London in 1992 is confirmed in the England & Wales Civil Registration Birth Index 1916-2007, available via ancestry.com, with the correct spelling of his given name: Name: Sheyaa Bin Abraham / Registration Date: 1992 / Registration district: Newham / Inferred County: Greater London / Re-registration Year: 1992 / Mother's Maiden Name: Joseph / Volume Number: 15 / Page Number: 2388 Sah10406 (talk) 13:27, 4 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

USER:Ealuscerwen, can we discuss this here? If you look at those sources, you will see that almost without exception they are considered Primary Sources and thus not relevant for use. Also, USER:Sah10406, ancestry.com is considered unreliable per WP:RSP, and though in that case it appears to merely be the use of primary document, which can be acceptable, I would suggest we hold off on including that as we cannot confirm that the individual on that document is the individual here. -- NoCOBOL (talk) 15:42, 4 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, and the section I removed contains a WP:BLPCRIME violation; we cannot state that he came from the United Kingdom, we can only state that he is alleged to have come from there and his status is disputed. -- NoCOBOL (talk) 15:46, 4 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 4 February 2019

21 Savage is actually from the UK. His favorite beverage is Lean mixed with Tea. 71.92.37.16 (talk) 03:49, 4 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

 Partly done: The article now states that 21 Savage is based (not born) in Atlanta, and mentions the UK citizenship allegations. Thanks for contributing to Wikipedia! — Newslinger talk 09:11, 4 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 4 February 2019

ChANGE ORIGIN FROM ATLANTA TO GREAT BRITAIN. 172.92.231.78 (talk) 04:18, 4 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

 Partly done: The article now states that 21 Savage is based (not born) in Atlanta, and mentions the UK citizenship allegations. Thanks for contributing to Wikipedia! — Newslinger talk 09:11, 4 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 4 February 2019

I believe 21 Savage was born in Newham, London, England. His birth record is here: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QV4Y-7SBG. Kiwiorange (talk) 05:24, 4 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

​ Partly done: The article now states that 21 Savage is based (not born) in Atlanta, and mentions the UK citizenship allegations. Unfortunately, FamilySearch (RSP entry) isn't considered a reliable source, so we can't use details from the birth record. Thanks for contributing to Wikipedia! — Newslinger talk 09:13, 4 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 4 February 2019

Change “21 savage was born in Atlanta Georgia to somewhere in the United Kingdom” 2603:900A:140C:8B00:6037:CF6A:48AA:954B (talk) 06:50, 4 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

 Partly done: The article now states that 21 Savage is based (not born) in Atlanta, and mentions the UK citizenship allegations. Thanks for contributing to Wikipedia! — Newslinger talk 09:18, 4 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"A drug deal gone haywire"

In describing the shooting death of this man's brother, the term "a drug deal gone haywire" sounds unprofessional. "Haywire" is a joking term, referring to the way a wire that holds a bale of hay under tension will, when cut, spring about unpredictably. It is not a proper way to refer to criminal activities. Elsewhere in the article, it is stated that " his brother Johnny "Tay-Man" Abraham-Joseph was killed during an attempted robbery." Please reconcile these illogical fragments of pseudo-reportage into a coherent narrative. 75.101.104.17 (talk) 10:35, 4 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 4 February 2019

Please add that he legally entered the U.S. in July 2005, and that his visa expired one year later https://www.spin.com/2019/02/21-savage-arrested-ice-british-citizen/ 71.169.177.99 (talk) 10:44, 4 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

 Done
This information is now in the article (although a different source is cited, and the article says this information is what ICE officials have said rather than being unquestioned fact). —BarrelProof (talk) 14:42, 4 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 4 February 2019

In Early Life, change "In July 2005, Abraham-Joseph moved to the United States." to "ICE alleges that in July 2005, Abraham-Joseph moved to the United States." ICE has not provided any evidence for this beyond alleging it, nor has a judge ruled on what is being alleged. 108.5.118.40 (talk) 13:03, 4 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

 Done
The article now describes the alleged move to the United States in July 2005 as something that ICE officials have said, not as an undisputed fact. However, I have not noticed any dispute about whether this information is true or not. Has it been disputed by anyone in reliable sources? —BarrelProof (talk) 14:49, 4 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Even if it hasn't been disputed, per WP:BLPCRIME we should list it as accused or similar (as it is now) until the situation is resolved in either direction. Alternatively, if there is a reliable source that states that the individual in question has conceded that he was born in the UK, then we can change it to an outright statement of fact. -- NoCOBOL (talk) 15:12, 4 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 4 February 2019

He is American 185.200.214.177 (talk) 18:17, 4 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Dating conventions

We need to change the dating conventions from the American [Month] [Day], [Year] to the British-styled [Day] [Month] [Year]. ie 22 October 1992. TrailBlzr (talk) 19:54, 4 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Nationality

why is it a debate over what nationality he is, he’s not legal in the states or anywhere but england, so he’s british EveryonesFAVORITE*toy (talk) 21:25, 4 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Also legal in Scotland; Wales; and Northern Ireland, the 3 other countries that make up the United Kingdom, along with England. TrailBlzr (talk) 07:29, 5 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
21 has never publicly identified as being British, which is how we use nationality as a description for other biographies. Nice4What (talk) 22:55, 4 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
This is false. We use the formal legal definition of Nationality on Wikipedia, not how people choose to publicly identify. ForgotMyPW (talk) 23:12, 4 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
This is correct. WP:NATIONALITY states that “The opening paragraph should usually provide context for the activities that made the person notable. In most modern-day cases this will be the country of which the person is a citizen, national or permanent resident, or if the person is notable mainly for past events, the country where the person was a citizen, national or permanent resident when the person became notable.” That being said, it wouldn’t be unreasonable to include his time in the US in the lead as well, given how much coverage and attention that it has caused. OhKayeSierra (talk) 23:32, 4 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Why not just stick his birthplace in and leave the rest of the sentence? "Shéyaa Bin Abraham-Joseph (born October 22, 1992 in London, United Kingdom), better known by his stage name 21 Savage, is a rapper, songwriter, and record producer based in Atlanta, Georgia." Black Kite (talk) 00:04, 5 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Biography#Birth date and place advises against doing such a thing, and I'd generally agree, it looks a bit much crammed in there. I would lean towards describing him as a British-born rapper, since it appears objectively true. Nohomersryan (talk) 00:29, 5 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
All the evidence that we have (birth certificate, statement from his lawyers, etc.) clearly shows that he is a British national and only a British national, which makes him British. There seems to be only one editor who is resisting this reality. I support "British-born..." as a compromise if a compromise even needs to be found. Vdjj1960 (talk) 03:08, 5 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Is there a head count of how many editors oppose calling him "a British rapper"? I figured there was consensus before now, but it really doesn't appear to have been discussed at all. Nohomersryan (talk) 03:59, 5 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

So far, no legitimate reason has been brought forth to omit his nationality here. I think this edit can safely be made ForgotMyPW (talk) 05:20, 5 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
No one has ever called him a British rapper and they way rappers are responding to this story, they still claim him as an ATLien. Not even the BBC is calling him that; they have questions too. Either no nationality or the correct one, and at this point in time that is unknown. UK laws are different that US laws. Don’t let controversy cloud your minds to start disrupting Wikipedia. Trillfendi (talk) 22:34, 5 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It doesn't matter what anyone else calls him since we use the legal definition of nationality on Wikipedia. All the current evidence (birth certificate, ICE officials, British Foreign Office) points to him being a British man, born in the U.K. to British parents. ForgotMyPW (talk) 00:08, 6 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 5 February 2019

24.242.240.221 (talk) 00:27, 5 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Oy mate...lemme edit this Sir Savage the 21st article

No. You do not get the privilege to edit this article. We do it for you. What do you want to edit? dannymusiceditor oops 00:39, 5 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: this is not the right page to request additional user rights. You may reopen this request with the specific changes to be made and someone will add them for you, or if you have an account, you can wait until you are autoconfirmed and edit the page yourself. DannyS712 (talk) 00:40, 5 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Name

His birth name keeps getting changed. Before the controversy it was "Shayaa", then it was "Sha Yaa", then on the birth certificate it was "Sheyaa" with a diacritic, and his sister spelled his name "Shaayaa" on Twitter with no space and two "A"s after the "H". Which is correct? Can we sort this part out once and for all? The brave celery (talk) 00:29, 5 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

reliability of wikpedia

that just goes to show you how reliable the information on wikpedia is. for years, wikipedia falsely claimed savage 21 was from atlanta when he was actually british — Preceding unsigned comment added by I3432432432423 (talk • contribs) 05:11, 5 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

English rapper not "British" rapper

I look at articles like, Sam Smith, James Blake, Giggs and Skepta, all have the word "English" in them instead of the word "British". I think English rapper or English-born rapper sounds more appropriate. TheAmazingPeanuts (talk) 02:55, 5 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Nohomersryan: What I mean is, if we gonna change 21 Savage's nationality based on current events, at least use a more correct term. Personally I don't really care about this news but editors and IP editors keep adding "British" in 21 Savage-related articles, like Issa Album and Without Warning. TheAmazingPeanuts (talk) 03:26, 5 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, ok. Yeah I did see British rapper pop up in a few articles there. I don't know for sure if Wikipedia discourages it, since if you search "song by British rapper" you'll find countless articles using that phrase. English rapper appears slightly more common, and it's what I'd go with myself if there's no strict guideline. Nohomersryan (talk) 09:40, 5 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Nohomersryan: There's probably no strict guideline of the word "British", but England can be considered as a country by itself. Which probably why most editors don't use the word "British" in English people-related articles. TheAmazingPeanuts (talk) 04:45, 5 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Place of origin

In the box at right it says under origin: Georgia. Isn't that deceptive, as he is from England?Dogru144 (talk) 08:59, 5 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

How hard is it for people to understand that “origin” means where their career started, not their place of birth. J. Cole’s origin is New York City even though he’s from Fayetteville, NC. Trillfendi (talk) 22:17, 5 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Place of birth and other names?

I don't think his place of birth should be stated as London, England yet since there don't seem to be any reliable sources currently that indicate it. Only claims by ICE and a purported birth certificate that we don't know if it's truly his. The source currently cited is just a news article on his purported birth certificate, which hasn't been confirmed for sure if I'm not mistaken.

Also why is there just 4 different spellings of his first name and combinations of his parents' last names listed as his "other names"? That's the same name. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.199.203.196 (talk) 20:17, 5 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Arrest records have always given his name as Shayaa Joseph.... Also, we shouldn’t be going off that birth certificate for it’s obvious invasion of privacy, original research, and the fact that British nationality law changed in 1983. British national aren’t automatically entitled to passports either. Trillfendi (talk) 22:25, 5 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Protected edit request on 5 February 2019

Add that his lawyers have confirmed his birth is England but that he applied for another visa in '17. ColorTheoryRGB CMYK 23:50, 5 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:21_Savage&oldid=881970702"