Talk:Millennials

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Sports and fitness

SouthAsianGuy891 has made a bunch of edits to the article that I consider problematic. They largely comprise of WP:SYNTHESIS with an WP:UNDUE focuson MMA fighting. I am going to detail them here and hopefully we can get some further input:

• "However Millennials have shown an increasing trend in participation of sports and fitness activities." (added to the lead)
• "Studies have found a a changing trend in terms of sports with Millennials." (first sentence of the sport & fitness section)

  Neither of these claims are borne out by the sources. In fact, the source added by SouthAsianGuy891 actually states "The sports world is in a flap – major media players are citing studies left, right and centre that show declining engagement in sports viewership and participation from every marketer’s golden target – the millennial. SouthAsianGuy is clearly misrepresenting his own source. If he wants to say that overall engagement in sport has increased then he needs to produce sources and statistics to that effect.

• "The vast majority of MMA fighters consists of Millennials. As per a 2017 survey, the average age of a ranked UFC fighter was 31 years old." (sourced to </ref> )

  For the purpose of the section this is completely irrelevant. Sport is dominated by millenials because sport is generally dominated by people under 40. This is true of any generation. It's not like baby-boomers were winning Olympic medals at 45 and then millneials starting winning them at 25.

• "Popular Millenial MMA fighters included Conor McGregor born in 1988 for mens division and Ronda Rousey born in 1987 for women's division. Millennial Jamaican sprint racer and nine times Olympic gold medalist Usain Bolt, born in 1986 is considered the fastest human ever known, setting a record 44.72 km/h (27.8 mph), measured between meter 60 and meter 80 of the 100 meters sprint of the World Championships in Berlin, Germany on 16 August 2009, which he completed in just 9.58 seconds."

  This looks like a WP:COATRACK to me. I see no reason why to highlight athletes of a minority sport (Bolt aside). Why not somebody like Cristiano Ronaldo or Novak Djokovic, authentic globally known figures? Better yet, why mention them at all? Every generation has produced great globally known athletes, so this just looks like a basic name-checking exercise to me. I don't see the point of it, and the section is too small to host images.

On the plus side, I think the basic idea of this section is a good one and adds to the article. However, it needs to accurately present what the sources actually say and it needs to stay on the point of what characterizes a millenial and what distinguishes them from previous generations. Betty Logan (talk) 11:15, 4 November 2018 (UTC)

Betty Logan's removal of an example of some Millennial athletes seems unjustified. Look at the article on Generation X , it has so many named musicians with pictures. there is no policy stating that a prominent athlete cannot be used as an example to represent a generation. The viewership and participation declining is based on a weak source, there are counter sources to that which justifies that millennial participation and viewership has increased, and I had given such sources which have been removed. The intro that all millennial are technological addicts is citation less, so I am removing that tag and please be clear why some popular athletes can not be named and pictures added to this article, while in the article of Generation X there are so many named celebrates with pictures. SouthAsianGuy891 (talk) 14:52, 4 November 2018 (UTC)

Just because WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS does not mean we have to replicate the practice here at this article. I could just as easily go over to the Gen X article and delete a load of stuff in it simply because we don't list it here. It is a vacuous rationale. What is the point of naming these people? Usain Bolt is a prominent millennial in sport, but so what? You have not said anything substantive about him, other then saying "Here is a millennial". What does the reader learn from this information, besides the fact Bolt is a millennial? There are lots of prominent millennials in many different fields, so which fields do we list and how do we discriminate between who to name and who not to? If you want an article listing famous millennials then I suggest you create a list article specifically dedicated to that purpose rather than trying to turn this article into a WP:COATRACK. Betty Logan (talk) 15:12, 4 November 2018 (UTC)

Ok my respect to you Betty Logan as a senior editor. But the whole article seems to have a stereotypical assumption dtating all millennials are lazy technological addicts. Well I used MMA just as an example to show higher participation of millennial as a sport, and the source I provided supports it. It is impossible to include every sports in the world, but regarding participation and viewership there are contradicting rports and most of the sources stating viewership and participation decline are solely based on North America, globally it is a fact that viewership and participation has increased with universal access to TVs in the 2010s compared to the time of the Boomers in 1960s, and also opportunities and sporting events, etc. Regardless I do not want to spend so much time on bringing all the sources and statistics of these up, but if the subject of MMA is WP:COATRACK , so should be the pop culture, music sections in Generation X article. I just intended it as an example of a popular sport among millennial and named two world famous athletes. However I respect you judgement as a senior editor, but will only say that the reports of decline/increase in viewership and participation are contradicting based on varying sources, so leave that as uniform and reconsider the article's stereotypical assumptions based on white Americans that all millennials are lazy technological addicts. SouthAsianGuy891 (talk) 15:22, 4 November 2018 (UTC)

You were the editor that added the source saying sport participation was declining and then misrepresented it. I checked your other sources and none of them spoke of sport engagement increasing. If you have other sources then please list them here and quote the relevant parts so they can be assessed. Thankyou. Betty Logan (talk) 15:26, 4 November 2018 (UTC)

Editing by SouthAsianGuy891

This editor has spent the entire day either adding unsourced claims or misrepresenting sources, as I have detailed above. Here is his latest edit:

• He is continuing to misrepresent the two sources he himself added to the article: [1] and [2]. The first source states "The sports world is in a flap – major media players are citing studies left, right and centre that show declining engagement in sports viewership and participation from every marketer’s golden target – the millennial (those born between the early 1980s and mid 1990s)" while the second states "Although more Gen Xers than millennials follow sports closely (45 percent versus 38 percent)". Despite SouthAsianGuy891's protestations, both of these sources highlight a declining trend not a "changing trend". These are his sources; if he disagrees with their findings then he needs to produce sources that reach different conclusions.
• He also keeps adding the statement "The average age of UFC fighters as of a 2017 survey was 31, representing higher participation of millennial fighters in MMA", and despite me clearly explaining this above and in the edit summaries keeps restoring and asking why I have removed it. There must be a language barrier issue here or something. Once again: the average age of a participant in professional sport being 31 is not unusual. The average age of pretty much every sport is between 25 and 35 because sport is dominated by people under the age of 40. This has been true of pretty much every sport of every generation and is not unique to the millennial generation, nor does it "prove" the point of view he has spent all day trying to push i.e. that there is a greater level of engagement in sport by the millennial generation compared to previous generations.

It is blatantly clear SouthAsianGuy891 has no interest in presenting a well-balanced objective view of what the sources say. If this disruption continues my next step will be to seek administrative intervention. Betty Logan (talk) 19:38, 4 November 2018 (UTC)

Betty Logan I already stated that I have stopped editing the article on my last edit, as I realized that the whole article is misleading as it is only about "American Millennial" as opposed to Millennial all over the world. And you using personal threat of reporting me is not civil, just because I have misinterpreted the sources, but do as you must, it was an edit dispute, not an act of vandal and I agreed not to edit this whole misleading article that should have its name changed to "American Millenials" in the first place. And one more thing UFC did not exist before the 1990s, norr was MMA popular before the 1990s, Baby Boomers were never engaged to to MMA and Generation Z is yet to come, so in comparison with the two participating groups Generation X and Millennial,s, Millennials are the dominant figure. Sports overall globally have more participants today than ever before, both with men and women and that is due to the contribution of millennials dominating (I understand the original research policy, but there are multiple sources and I can still assemble them, but it would be tedious as this article is solely about White American Millennials, I wont bother so am not mentioning these), and the fact that you do not allow key figures of pictures of millennial celebrities here, yet allow them on the Generation X article shows your biasedness. Regardless I dont care if you report me just because I misinterpreted a source like you said on the uncivil threat and personal attack above and I no longer have interest in the article (which btw is rated c-class quality and I understand why now) I feel should be renamed "White American Millennials" using them as stereotypes for lazy digital people, which is not true globally, and this is my last edit on this talk page too. SouthAsianGuy891 (talk) 10:52, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

You didn't misinterpret a source, you misrepresented many sources, and that is a behavioral problem not an editing dispute. Editing disputes take place within the normal parameters of Wikipedia's policies and guidelines, but your edits were operating beyond those parameters. I have tried to accommodate you where your objections were within policy, such as removing the source you personally added but then objected to once it was accurately presented. You clearly don't understand the WP:OR policy because pretty much every edit you made breached it in some way, and it is entirely appropriate to warn editors that their policy-breaching editing will result in sanctions. I have cut you a lot of slack because you are a new editor but my patience is finite. Betty Logan (talk) 14:05, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

Sources used for the ever-expanding section "Date and age range definitions"

The sources should be reined in a bit. Individual authors, news articles or TV show seasons don't seem to be significant compared to organisations and authorities such as the US Census Bureau. Otrebus (talk) 15:37, 6 January 2019 (UTC)

I checked edit history and "ever-expanding" is inaccurate. It doesn't appear that anyone has added to the date range section at all since the RfC on this issue (see top of this talk page) and since the issue of a couple users abusing multiple accounts or evading block to try to cut reliable sources from date section was addressed [3] [4].DynaGirl (talk) 15:57, 6 January 2019 (UTC)

Otrebus What sources are you talking about specifically? 2606:6000:6111:8E00:ED4E:3BF:45F4:3C1C (talk) 01:49, 7 January 2019 (UTC)

"On the American television program Survivor, for their 33rd season, subtitled Millennials vs. Gen X, the "Millennial tribe" consisted of individuals born between 1984 and 1997" for example, or "a 2013 Time magazine cover story used 1980 or 1981 as start dates" Otrebus (talk) 20:36, 17 January 2019 (UTC)

The Time magazine cover story is highly significant as the magazine has been instrumental in defining and writing about modern generations. It is credited with naming the Silent Generation. Survivor I don't think is that significant but recall previous talk page consensus to keep it. DynaGirl (talk) 21:05, 17 January 2019 (UTC)

I can live with losing the Survivor reference since it is not authoritative and it is consistent with the other sources. However, there is no way to avoid having so many sources when there is so much ambiguity over the date range. I say that as an editor who is generally inclined to trim redundant sources. In this particular case they don't just corroborate a date they also establish the WP:WEIGHT of evidence for a particular range. Betty Logan (talk) 21:17, 17 January 2019 (UTC)

Xennials RfC

There is a current RfC on a related page. Please see RfC regarding how Xennials should be described in the opening sentence of the lede [5]. DynaGirl (talk) 21:17, 12 February 2019 (UTC)

Include millennial perspectives

I'm glad that this article has improved its coverage of millennial "traits" and social attitudes since the last time I checked it out (for example, briefly discussing the millennial bashing phenomenon's connection to the Strauss–Howe generational theory), but I'm still concerned that it excludes millennials' perspectives and doesn't adequately address criticism of the "millennial generation" as ill-defined. Here are some sources that deconstruct millennial categorization and stereotypes, including some works by millennials.

• Millennials Don't Exist!
• The long-term effects of Millennial bashing
• Millennial-Bashing Is Class Warfare (paywall)
• The Timelessness of Millennial-Bashing - addresses the history of youth bashing

Sidenote: I identify as a millennial. I personally feel that many of the stereotypes about this generation are untrue and harmful. In light of the fact that youth have been stereotyped in similar ways throughout history, I think that the Syzygy study cited could be improved by making it a longitudinal study showing whether past and future generations exhibit similar levels of "narcissism" at the same age. I also highly doubt that a marketing firm's report should be considered a reliable source; it should be reproduced by peer-reviewed academic studies.

Qzekrom (talk) 18:22, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

Date Range Sources

The US Census Bureau does not define Millenials. From The Atlantic: "I started by calling the Census Bureau. A representative called me back, without much information. 'We do not define the different generations,' she told me. 'The only generation we do define is Baby Boomers and that year bracket is from 1946 to 1964.' The 1982 to 2000 date range cited in this Millenials article seems to be from a single press release [6], and the study itself that is written about does not appear to be available.

According to a 2017 paper by the US Census Bureau, "There is no official start and end date for when millennials were born."[7] Kolya Butternut (talk) 22:20, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

I suspect a lot of the sources are just repeating what Neil Howe has defined as the date ranges without representing the opinion of the secondary sources themselves. I believe Forbes was cited on this talk page [8]. This is just an opinion piece by Neil Howe, next to the byline if you hover of the "i" you'll see "Opinions expressed by Forbes Contributors are their own."

I see that Australia's McCrindle Research is cited, but this organization is not taken seriously. This disgraced company is not even a member of the Australian Market & Social Research Society.

I should add the caveat that this company has been influential in the media, especially if "Generation Alpha" sticks. I would suggest only using secondary sources that cite this company, at least after 2012 when they were investigated by the Australian Market & Social Research Society. But really it would be best if all of the sources cited for date ranges in this article were from 2018 or later, after they have had the opportunity to consider Pew's 2018 definition of millenials, wherever possible. Kolya Butternut (talk) 03:05, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

It's been a couple of years, and I think it's time to go through these sources, many of which may be primary sources. Kolya Butternut (talk) 05:09, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

The 2013 Time magazine cover story has been much discussed here. It states "Millennials consist, depending on whom you ask, of people born from 1980 to 2000." A 2018 Time story validates Pew Research dates. Kolya Butternut (talk) 05:23, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

The Time piece actually refers to 1980 or 1981 as a start date. PEW has its own point-of-view but there are many other sources who use different dates. The dates have been discussed since this page was created in 2002. Strauss and Howe use 1982 to 2004 (they coined the term, so they have some cred.).Aboutbo2000 (talk) 20:40, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

The Pew source is the most reliable source in that section because they actually researched the Millennials date ranges and gave reasons why they chose the date ranges the way they did. Just because you, Aboutbo"2000" disagree with Pew's research and conclusion does not mean that Pew has a "POV." Wanting those born in 2000 to be included as Millennials by trimming down or removing reliable sources, misrepresenting what the sources state, adding unreliable sources and refusing discussion is non-neutral POV. And just because Strauss and Howe coined the term does not mean that they must know everything there is about Millennials, the same way someone coining the term Physics does not mean that they know everything about physics. Someone963852 (talk) 23:04, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

I stated it before and I’ll state it again, the ‘Date and age range definition section’ is nothing but a mess of trivial, insignificant information on what random businesses and companies use as their date range for purposes other than to study the date ranges. There’s a difference between research-based sources that actually researched the generation and their date ranges and have actual reasons to conclude the date ranges the way they did (like the Pew source), versus what random companies and businesses use as their ranges for categorical purposes (e.g. Time, Survivor TV show, the US Census Bureau as you stated). There have been several past discussions regarding cutting down the ‘Date and age range definition section,’ with the recent ones listed on Talk:Millennials/Archive 11, but of course nothing came of it because certain editors believe that they own the article and are pushing their non-neutral POV because they personally disagree with what reliable sources and research have to say. Someone963852 (talk) 23:04, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

@Aboutbo2000: There's virtually no substance to what you've just said. Rather than making fly-by-night specious statements will you come back and take the time to offer reasoned arguments backed up by quotes with references? Let me respond point by point:

• The Time piece actually refers to 1980 or 1981 as a start date.

What are you talking about? I haven't seen this in any Time piece. Regardless, the up to date 2018 Time piece uses 1981 to 1996, citing Pew.

It's actually in the paper copy of the Time magazine article (the Millennials birth start date of 1980 or 1981). If I have time I'll add a photo. Some of the material didn't make it into the web version of the article, but its there.

• PEW has its own point-of-view but there are many other sources who use different dates.

Obviously there are many different dates used by various sources, we've discussed it for many years. Check the history.

To quote another editor, this is heavy on declarative statements and light on evidence. Pew's 1981 to 1996 range is cited by many reliable secondary sources, Time magazine above, The New York Times, Business Insider, The Washington Post, The Chicago Tribune, USA Today, Newsweek, Huffington Post, The Wall Street Journal, Reuters, The Los Angeles Times, NBC's Today. But you state that there are many other sources who use different date ranges? Back that up please.

I dont need to back it up, it's been discussed, debated here for years. The language has been agreed on for a long time.

• The dates have been discussed since this page was created in 2002.

Science evolves. This article is out of date.

As long as you can back it up then make your changes.

• Strauss and Howe use 1982 to 2004 (they coined the term, so they have some cred.)

They have cred? Says who? They coined the term; that fact alone proves nothing about the weight their theories should receive. I am all ears. Back that up please. Kolya Butternut (talk) 23:25, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

Strauss and Howe have written the definitive book on the Millennials as you know. They also wrote many articles and have devoted thier lives to the topic. They have written books on all the generations. Not using their dates on the page would be ridiculous.Aboutbo2000 (talk) 02:00, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

Aboutbo2000, what I'm hearing is that you don't feel you need to provide evidence because I should be able to find that in this talk page history. I would assume that the consensus sources for the date ranges, which have been agreed upon after years of discussion, would all be cited in the current Millennials article. I have looked at many of those sources, and they are poor. I understand that Strauss and Howe have written extensively on this topic. I would expect to find secondary sources which cite their chosen date ranges, but it is important to find recent sources which reflect current consensus opinion. If those secondary sources have due weight, then they should be included, but we should make no assumptions without doing the research. I also hear you say that if I believe I can back up my arguments then I should go ahead and edit the article. I take that to mean that you have no further objections. Thank you, if you have no evidence of any kind to support your opinions I will wait for more input from others. Kolya Butternut (talk) 02:49, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

Go ahead and edit it per Wikipedia:Be_bold. Someone963852 (talk) 03:28, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

Comment - editors ignoring recent RfC Kolya Butternut said "It's been a couple of years, and I think it's time to go through these sources". This is incorrect. It has not been a couple years. In October 2018 there was consensus on an RfC which proposed cutting down the sources in the date range section, as well as changing the dates in lead. The consensus was against doing so [9]. Someone963852, who encouraged this edit with "Go ahead and edit it per Wikipedia:Be_bold" knows there is recent consensus against this change. They participated in that RfC. DynaGirl (talk) 06:13, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

@DynaGirl: The specious arguments you're making completely ignore all context and would only pass the straight-face test to someone who has read nothing in this talk page. The October 2018 RfC proposed cutting down the number of date range sources, yes. That is unrelated to this discussion. If you would like to participate in this conversation please participate in good faith and refrain from strawman arguments. Clearly in context when I say it is time to "go through" these sources I am stating that we should research each individual source to determine that it is reliable, accurate, up-to-date, and ideally is a secondary source chosen to give due weight to each date range opinion. I am not stating that there are an excessive number of sources. If you choose to respond, please carefully read the above section "Date Range Sources" and refer specifically to each piece of my research that you disagree with and provide research of your own to show why you feel it is inaccurate. Clearly you care about these topics, but if you continue your well documented years long pattern of disruptive editing in the form of Civil POV Pushing you will be blocked. Kolya Butternut (talk) 08:02, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

The current article states: "United States Census Bureau defines the millennial generation as those born from 1982–2000." As provided by your two sources above, that's clearly not the case. Go ahead and update it to make the article accurate. Someone963852 (talk) 23:31, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

The source cited does not actually say "defines" so I edited to change the text "United States Census Bureau defines the millennial generation as those born from 1982–2000" to "A 2015 report from the United States Census Bureau describes millennials as those born between 1982 and 2000" [10] to reflect the source cited [11]. Apparently, in 2015, the US Census Bureau used dates 1982-2000 to calculate the size of the Millennial Generation and reported that the Millennial generation had surpassed the Baby Boomer generation in the US in terms of size, with 83.1 million Millennials compared to 75.4 million baby boomers, using the dates 1982-2000.DynaGirl (talk) 00:05, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:The Greatest Generation which affects the Generations template on this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. Kolya Butternut (talk) 02:19, 22 February 2019 (UTC)