Talk:Chemtrail conspiracy theory/Archive 9

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Article in the news

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/03/13/youtube-wikipedia-links-debunk-conspiracy.html

-- GreenC 03:54, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

Sidebar, again

There is a new disagreement if sidebar belongs here, [1][2][3] and [4][5][6]. Previous discussion at Talk:Chemtrail_conspiracy_theory/Archive_8#alternative_medicine_sidebar. So the question is, has consensus changed? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 12:34, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

BTW, CFCF, per "It is quackery and pseudomedicine, and per WP:BRD there was insufficient discussion", you did see that there were 7 editors in the previous discussion? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 12:46, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

That was during the very short period that the sidebar only read "alternative medicine". It no longer does that and did so only as a violation of consensus for a few weeks. I agree it is better placeed under pseudomedicine than alternative medicine, but there isn't really any difference if you look at the definitions. (In fact I did not see that 7 people had commented, because of the white space, but the rest of my current comment stands.) I think it's a better idea to change the sidebar to be more inclusive than to remove this. HIV-denialism isn't classically alternative medicine either, but it is most assuredly pseudomedicine. Carl Fredrik ^talk 12:50, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for replying, I thought the whitespace might be a problem. AFAICT, the "traditional" heading in that template is "Alternative and pseudo‑medicine", and I don't see chemtrails being that or quackery. We'll see if there's more opinions. WP will survive either outcome. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:04, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

Update. Eggishorn removed the sidebar again on may 11,[7] so today I removed chemtrails from the sidebar again, and was reverted.[8] Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:01, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

My 2p. Chemtrails are not ALT-MED. They are lunatic charlatanesque, but not medical. I support the removal of the sidebar. -Roxy, the dog. barcus 09:30, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

No one has so far even said it was alt-med — but it is pseudomedicine, and there is one and the same sidebar for both. The two "fields" are virtually indestinguishable in reality, but even if we strongly feel that this isn't alt-med, that argument isn't applicalbe. HIV-denialism isn't more part of alt-med than this is — but there is no debate as to whether that belongs in the "alternative and pseudomedicine sidebar. The sidebar is not only about alt-med, but also pseudomedicine. Also the discussion for changes to the sidebar belongs there. To claim that chemtrails is not pseudomedicine is bizarre, because chemtrails are suggested to have an effect on the body — bringing it directly into the medical field. Are you certain you mean that Roxy the dog? Carl Fredrik ^talk 09:54, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

Thread also at Template talk:Alternative medicine sidebar, but as I see it, it's one issue. If a sidebar is not in the article, the article should not be in the sidebar.

Per pseudomedicine: "Alternative medicine, fringe medicine, or pseudomedicine are practices that by definition do not work, and are a form of quackery or health fraud.[1] They are claimed to have the healing effects of medicine..."

Chemtrails fit poorly. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:05, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

How about if we add it to Template:Pseudoscience and add that to the article? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:19, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

That definition from pseudomedicine is a shortened version (which I in fact wrote, so it's fun to be quoted). A full definition also includes "theories that by definition are false or rejected", but this is too much for the first sentence of a lede. If you go a little further into that introductory paragraph, you can see that it also tackles false theoretical systems and not just singular practices. Pseudomedicine is in essence anything that is a pseudoscience while simultaneously purporting to be medical. Medical in its turn is anything that is related to the health or physiological or pathological functioning of the individual (human). So a conspiracy theory relating to the function of the body is de facto pseudomedicine.

Chemtrails most assuredly falls under both pseudoscience as well as a medical theory — hence it is pseudomedicine. It is in a sense a medical conspiracy theory, which I changed the header of Template:Alternative medicine sidebar to include upon your request.

I am more than willing to discuss how we can improve the sidebar, to make it include medical conspiracy theories and pseudomedicine in a better way (more clearly interconnected), maybe under a different name such as Template:Medical conspiracy theories sidebar. However, there are issues with chiropractors not wanting to include mention of conspiracy theories — even though that is what they peddle. So we have the problem that medical conspirators don't want to be called alternative, while "alternatives" not wanting to be called conspirators. The middle ground is pseudomedicine, which I find both dislike, but is the best and should label both.

As for your suggestion — navigation bars at the bottom of articles are not used (as in clicked on). A handful of Wikipedians find them useful, but in general no readers find them (add to that how 65% don't even see them because they're blocked in the mobile view). To me that invalidates the replacement with a navigation bar (but not having both), and I find the sidebar to be much more useful.

We should try to keep these quasimedical theories bunched together, because they all deal with the same common theme: a rejection of science, and a rejection of established medical fact. If that means we need a new header for the sidebar, that's fine — but we shouldn't be too pedantic about what is what, when everything is pseudomedicine. Carl Fredrik ^talk 11:03, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

What is the difference between ALT-Med and Pseudomedicine? Carl, you and I agree on most things, but I cannot see how this topic fits within any topic area related to medicine. Your connection is too obtuse to be made and not be caught under our WP:OR rules. It was for these reasons that I removed this topic from the sidebar. I started this reply before Carl's reply above and was edit conflicted. I still find that this is not a medical or medical related topic at all. -Roxy, the dog. barcus 11:08, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

I made no such request. Disagree with the "medical theory" reasoning, and this change to the template [9] doesn't seem like improvement. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:19, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

BTW, how do we know that readers don't click in the navigation bars at the bottom of articles? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:25, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

Including the lunatic fringe pseudoscientific theory of chemtrails within any medical topic is drawing a very long bow indeed. It is not and has never been a medical (or alt-medical) theory, it is really just a bunch of conspiracy nuts dreaming up an "explanation" for a perfectly natural phenomenon. - Nick Thorne ^talk 12:13, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

There is plenty of lunatic fringe pseudoscientific theories that purport to be medicine — including that entire side-bar full. If it has medical implications, i.e. is a medical conspiracy theory, then it belongs. We're not validating it by listing it there, just stating that it's just as wacky as AIDS-denialism. Carl Fredrik ^talk 23:07, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

Men bättre lyss till den sträng som brast än aldrig spänna en båge. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 14:15, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

FYI, this is the English Wikipedia. I have no idea what you are saying. - Nick Thorne ^talk 14:16, 14 May 2018 (UTC)

Seems to just be a Swedish proverb.--tronvillain (talk) 14:45, 14 May 2018 (UTC)

I don't see any part of this theory that could be called medicine. And I don't recall seeing this classfication anywhere. I only see original research to support it. I suggest removing this classificafion until you can find some reliable souce that makes this classification. -Enric Naval (talk) 14:33, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

What about the fact that the purported function is through a chemical agent, i.e. pharmaceutical drug? Enric Naval — Calling it a medical conspiracy theory doesn't legitimize it, it just includes it with other far-fetched theories. Carl Fredrik ^talk 23:07, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

According to some proponents chemtrails are toxic and make us less fertile. It's not enough, but it's something. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 14:36, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

It's just straining too far to class this as "pseudomedicine". Almost all conspiracies are alleged to be doing bad things to people. I'd definitely not put that sidebar here. --Orange Mike | Talk 20:10, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

It really doesn't seem to fit into pseuodomedicine - only a subset of proponents of the conspiracy are making the claim that chemtrails negatively affect health, and the claim "x is harmful" doesn't even seem to fit the definitions given at pseudomedicine. Even if they're not used that much, I think the pseudoscience navbar is a much better fit - it's a pity there isn't a more applicable sidebar (like pseudoscience or conspiracy theory).--tronvillain (talk) 15:06, 14 May 2018 (UTC)

No, no, no, no, no. It is most absolutely a medical conspiracy theory, or if I rephrase it: a pseudoscientific interpretation of medicine. How can this be a matter of discussion? The idea of mind control through the use of a chemical substance, i.e. a drug or pharmacological agent — how can that not be medicine (as in relating to the physiological or pathological functioning of the human body, including the mind/brain/cognitive faculties)? Please answer that Orangemike and Tronvillain. Carl Fredrik ^talk 23:03, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

Pseudo medicine is doing something suppose≤dly for a medical reason or treatment that is not supported by the science. No one is making "chemtrails" at all, let alone for some purported medical reason. It is the very claim that chemtrails are even a thing that is properly pseudoscience. - Nick Thorne ^talk 02:55, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

It literally doesn't fit the definition at alternative medicine (the redirect for pseudomedicine), or the definition that was on the original page before the redirect: "Alternative medicine, fringe medicine, or pseudomedicine are practices that claim to have the healing effects of medicine but are disproven, unproven, impossible to prove, or are excessively harmful in relation to their effect.", "Pseudomedicine is medicine which claims to be effective for diagnosing or treating specific medical conditions, but which has been disproven or which is unproven and the mainstream scientific opinion is that it will not be proven to be effective", and "Pseudomedicine refers to 'treatments that claim to be working concepts of medicine that have no objectively verifiable benefit or are incompatible with the current state of knowledge in the field of science-based medicine.'" But that is irrelevant, given that the sidebar itself includes (medical) conspiracy theories, which this clearly falls under. --tronvillain (talk) 13:05, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

While the sidebar includes some conspiracy theories, "medical conspiracy theories" was added to it's header during this discussion.[10] Before that, the indication was that it contained "Alternative and pseudo‑medicine" CT's. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 15:07, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

Seems like a clearer title, given the inclusion of those conspiracy theories. --tronvillain (talk) 22:43, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

I ask again for a reliable source for chemtrails being a medical conspiracy. I checked one reliable source Conspiracy Theories in American History: An Encyclopedia, Volume 1 pp 197-199. Their explanation of chemtrails says nothing about medicine. Medicine-related conspiracies can be found in other pages. Please find a reliable source that calls chemtrails a medical conspiracy or similar, and gives an explanation of why. --Enric Naval (talk) 21:06, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

From page 197, "or to test compounds on the human populations and natural life below.", and the next paragraph on 197-198, "Activists who highlight the issue usually allege that epidemics of flu-like illnesses follow sightings of contrail patters: sometimes the symptoms include diarrhea, listlessness, and fevers." Exactly how much more medical would you like that conspiracy to be? --tronvillain (talk) 22:58, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

Sorry for adding the {{Alternative medicine sidebar}} in again, but I was just going through all the article links within it and expanding the sections they are in. Personally, I can easily see where Chemtrail conspiracy theory would easily fit in as a medical conspiracy theory and therefore it belongs in the template and on this page; however, consensus is consensus, and we should always go with consensus.  Paine Ellsworth  ^put'r there  19:47, 2 August 2018 (UTC)

No reason you should suspect this thread was here. But you know us Wikipedians, we can discuss topics to an extent that will appear stunning to, well, everybody. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:42, 3 August 2018 (UTC)