Talk:John Calvin
John Calvin is currently a good article nominee. Nominated by an unspecified nominator at 3 October 2006 Please use the This article is not categorized by subtopic. Please edit the |
Biography: Core B‑class | ||||||||||
|
Christianity Unassessed | ||||||||||
|
Template:V0.5 Template:WPCD-People Template:Todo priority
What's in a name?
Jean Calvin was his real name. This should be mentioned. Is he know as John Calvin in english speaking countries ? Ericd 22:39 Sep 7, 2002 (UTC)
- Yes, that's how he's known by English speakers. -- Zoe
- He was born with the name Jean Calvin but later in his life it changed to John Calvin.
--Pfc Ender 21:01, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
Jean Chauvin was his real name and like many people of his time he adopted a latinised version of his name — Preceding unsigned comment added by Steve10806 (talk • contribs)
Predestinarianism
- Christian lay-people generally identify Calvinism first and foremost with predestinarianism. Predestinarianism, unlike predestination, is set up in contrast to human free will. The idea is that if people could do anything other than what God foreordained them to do it would violate the sovereignity of God. An unfortunate consequence is that, taken along with the rest of the Bible, this doctrine has God forcing people to sin, and creating some for heaven and others for hell. The contrasting view has people choosing freely for themselves whether or not to turn to God and whether or not to sin. This keeps God from being responsible for evil in the world, and whether or not they go to hell, but also opens the possibility that what God wants may not always be what happens.
- Nevertheless, it is not entirely accurate to identify Calvinism with predestinarianism, as this was only a minor teaching of John Calvin. Some of his other teachings have become cornerstones of Protestant theology, and there exist non-Calvinist Protestants who would call Calvin a better selection for the title "father of Protestantism" than Martin Luther.
I removed this whole new section to talk about it, for a couple of reasons. It uses "predestinarianism" as though it were a special technical term, which it is not. The links to Calvinism and Predestination are more than sufficient, in my opinion, for dealing with this topic. Finally, it's not a very insightful or informative treatment of the topic. Of course, I am ready to be corrected. Mkmcconn
I have always heard "predestinarianism" used as the belief that humans do not have free will, and that everything is predetermined by the sovereign will of God. Predestination, on the other hand, could refer to my personal interprettation of Romans 8:29 ("For whom He foreknew, He also predestined..."), which is that God, before the foundation of the world, knew that the Elect would, of their own free will, choose Him, and at that time predestined them for certain blessings (the idea being that, as I have heard it used, predestinarianism is directly opposed to free will, whereas predestination and free will are not necessarily mutually contradictory, in some systems of thought). Webster's Revised Unabridged, however, gives "predestinarianism" as "The system or doctrine of the predestinarians" and "predestinarian" as "One who believes in or supports the doctrine of predestination", which is far more general than my use of it. Anyway, the only thing that I think is particularly important that isn't in the article already is that John Calvin is associated with predestination in much of Christianity, but this was, to him, only a minor teaching. kpearce
- My understanding is that predestination was not a controversial doctrine among the magisterial reformers, as it was at a later time. Luther, Zwingli, Calvin, Bucer, Melancthon - all of them had comparable ideas of predestination. It took a couple of generations before the Calvinists and Lutherans developed incompatible views - although positively stated the Lutheran and Calvinist views are not easily distinguishable. So, it would not be accurate to say that predestination was a "minor" teaching - election and predestination were important to the idea of salvation by grace as understood by all of the Reformers, even as early as Wyclif and Hus (as Deb says below). The story of how predestination came to be so strongly identified with the Calvinists is complicated. It isn't altogether explained by John Calvin's own views on the issue. Certainly predestination is not the "central" issue of calvinism, as so many say that it is. If it were central, you're right that Calvin should be expected to have written much more about it than he did. Mkmcconn 02:32 Jan 11, 2003 (UTC)
- For what it's worth, I'm a Presbyterian and consequently I believe in predestination, but I hadn't come across the word "predestinarianism" and I don't understand how it can differ from belief in predestination in any important respect, so I'd support the above change. As far as I remember from my reading of Calvin, predestination doesn't receive great emphasis in his writing, but it is inextricably linked with the doctrine of grace and is a cornerstone of the Calvinist faith. --Deb
You all seem to be more knowledgeable on this issue than I am, so I'll bow out on this one. kpearce
I take it that, by "predestinarianism" you are reffering to the concept that I know as double-predestination, in that God has decided every action one makes before birth, in fact at the beggining of time. Subsequently he has saved some souls and damned others, the reasons why this is the case and how he knows what will happen (he is omniscient) even Calvin agreed as uncomprehensible. However it is, as you say, a cornerstone of the faith. Calvinists believe that they have the calling through living good and faithful lives and, as a result, believe they are among the elect that have been saved by God. Consequently in order to be among the elect and a Calvinist one has to believe in predestination. David 16, Bristol UK
- Some Calvinists believe this. Many of us consider this to be a distortion, destructive not only of Calvinism but of the Christian faith. Salvation is not through belief in predestination; and no Calvinist confession says that it is. See the Calvinism article, under "Hypercalvinism". Mkmcconn 01:18, 13 Nov 2003 (UTC)
Theocracy
I think that some mention that critics of Calvin argue that Geneva was a theocracy is an important addition. I will try to phrase it carefully, but it links to many other Wikipedia discussions that mention Calvin and neo-Calvinist religious movements.--Cberlet 20:27, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)
- This is a case where show-not-tell works better. I would rather see a more complex discussion on the role of the Consistory in Geneva than imprecise labels like "theocracy." -- db 13:40, 09 May 2005 (UTC)
- Some scholars say Calvin's Geneva was a theocracy--others say it was not. Some current small branches of Calvinism openly decribe themselves as Theonomic. Crticis call them Theocratic. At least this debate deserves a mention. If there is a more complicated way to discuss this, have at it; but there are many sides to this issue, and there are some large liberal organizations that argue that Theocracy is the proper term.--Cberlet 15:09, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
"...and there are some large liberal organizations that argue that Theocracy is the proper term." . . . Like . . . who? I think the proper term would actually be "ecclesiocracy"--that is, that the officers of the church were also officers of the state.--JC
Geographical failture
"Hungary (especially in Transylvania)"
Transylvania is a part of Romania and not Hungary...
- Regarding this alleged "Geographical Failiure", I would like to point out that Transylvania for sevral decades "belonged" to Hungary. Please look at the transylvania article.
Witches
I deleted the section about the persecution of witches because it was poorly written and formatted, the documentation was in German only, which is inadmissible in the English version of a page like this, and the text originally came from an IP known for vandalism (65.160.148.200; the text was copied by 24.186.74.181). My redacting should not be construed to mean, however, that this material does not belong in the article. The author should post here so we can resolve these issues and get the content into the article if the facts so warrant. --Flex 17:41, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Hi, Flex, I made these remarks. Sorry it did not meet your formating standards. I'm quite content if you rewrite it or format this particular contribution. As far as I know this is a part of Calvin's life which people have rather neglected - or they don't like to talk about it. I have never found any literature about it in English and the books in German have never been reprinted lately. What you wrote about vandalism that's not correct. I'd be obliged to you if you delete this remark. Best regards Ben (aka 80.145.63.210)
- Hi, Ben. If the information about has not been "fit to print" recently (meaning it's not a new finding that was unavailable to previous biographers) or in any language but German, I wonder if it is significant enough to belong to an encyclopedia article, which, by definition, gives only a brief overview of a topic. The material would surely fit under an article about the persecution of witches, but I am not yet convinced it belongs here -- except perhaps as a brief example of Calvin's strictures in Geneva (cf. the bit about Servetus). Also, I do think it needs to be documented in English. Could you post here some translated quotes from the book you cited? Certainly, there are non-hagiographical sources out there (say, Will Durant's The Story of Civilization) that might mention this.
- Also, the IP address from which your post came (80.145.63.210) differs from both of the IPs I mentioned. Perhaps you've used different computers for each posting? In any case, may I suggest you create a Wikipedia account to avoid being lumped in with a known vandal who uses the same computer or floating IP address? --Flex 20:56, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Numerous articles have references to foreign language texts. I don't think that this needs to be removed. On the other hand, I think this should be easily verifable in an English language text and I think it certainly deserves to be covered in this article - as we already cover Severus in an altogether too-small section on Geneva. Rmhermen 13:21, Apr 12, 2005 (UTC)
"In 1553, Calvin approved of the execution by burning of Michael Servetus for heresy. In 1559 Calvin founded a school for training children as well as a hospital for the indigent."
- Can anyone explain how these two sentences are related? It may be only be one man's opinion, but the second sentence appears to apologize for the former... Urbansquid 06:15, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
Following this understanding of the Old Testament law, in 1545 twenty-three people were burned to death under charges of practicing witchcraft and attempting to spread the Plague over a three year period.[5] ---I'm sorry, but is someone honestly trying to peddle the idea that these people actually DID try and spread the Plague and WERE witches? (I know Schaff says they did, but he's full of shit). Can anyone tell me how one would go about spreading the Plague without, y'know, dying oneself? (Especially given that people didn't know how it was spread at the time (by rats)). What is more, WHY would anyone try to spread the Plague? And how would you establish guilt in such a case? It seems like someone here is prepared to give Schaff a very wide benefit of doubt. --JC
Calvin's Youth and Conversion?
Was he raised as a roman catholic? Where and how did he first come into contact with emerging Protestantism? When did he first profess to be a Protestant? -- 145.254.130.30 17:15, 7 October 2005 (UTC).
Calvin was raised a roman catholic, but it appears that during his studies at Paris, he came into contact with protestant thought. At his time in Paris, there was a controversy between the King of France which expected adherence to the catholic teaching, and significant parts of the theological faculty, which were open to the reformation movement.
- This should go into the article. The biography is nearly incoherent. It doesn't say anything about him becoming a minister, it just mentions out of the blue that he had to be carried to the pulpit because he was sick. Sylvain1972 15:16, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
favor
I have just added a new section to Judaism and Christianity on "love." It is just a stub of a section, hopefully others will add more about the Jewish notion. But I know that my characterization of the Christian notion is at best wildly incomplete. Perhaps among the contributors to this page there are some who could go over it and add whatever additional material, detail, nuance, explanation they think necessary. I am very concerned about not misrepresenting, or doing justice to, the Christian point of view. I also added a long quote from Maimonides to the section on Heaven and Hell; in fact, I did a rewrite a week or two ago. I know the Jewish position is well-represented but again I am concerned that in the process the Christian view may appear misrepresented or at least underrepresented. So, I'd be grateful if someone checked and made sure the Christian view(s) are accurately and sufficiently represented. Thanks, Slrubenstein | Talk 20:45, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
Calvin and Servetus
The wording in this paragraph seems to have been hijacked by emotion, leading to the incorrect use (both, in the linguistic and the historical sense) of the term murder in two consecutive sentences. The historical context was a) a court decision leading to execution for collaboration with a military enemy in the former (see the surprise attack of the duc of savoy on geneva[1]), and b) a court decision leading to execution for heresy in the latter case. Todays copy/paste mentality appears too simple in painting Calvin as a 'murderer' and I recommend the lecture of a widely recognised authority in this regard: Philip Schaff, in his 37 volumes on church history, writes in History of the Christian Church, Volume 8, The Swiss Reformation [2]: "Calvin has the misfortune rather than the guilt of pre-eminence for intolerance among the Reformers. He and Servetus are the best abused men of the sixteenth century; and the depreciation of the good name of the one and the exculpation of the bad name of the other have been carried far beyond the limits of historic truth and justice. Both must be judged from the standpoint of the sixteenth, not of the nineteenth, century." Notable are also the historical details about the actual events given by him in a series of footnotes in [3]. I have therefore modified the wording in this paragraph to fit better to those sources. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.104.49.190 (talk • contribs)
There is no evidence whatsoever regarding "collaboration with a military enemy" in Servetus' case. It is difficult, in fact, to imagine whom Servetus could possibly collaborate with, given that during most of the last decade of his life, he was on the run from both Catholic AND Protestant authorities. Schaff's reference is a either ignorant or mendacious. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.92.231.110 (talk • contribs)
The Coleridge quote seems very much like POV apologeticism. Coleridge lived more than 200 years after the fact and was a poet and literary critic--not a historian. Its questionable whether he read Servetus' most important work--the world for which he was burned, Christianismi Restitutio, which was out of print and of which only 3 original copies existed during Coleridge's life--and, quite frankly, Coleridge became known for his reactionary opinions later in life. He wrote poems praising capital punishment and later re-wrote many of his own, earlier poems, toning down the brighter, more open-minded spirit of his youth. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.104.49.216 (talk • contribs)
- I agree that the whole section needs rewriting with more sources from various points of view. However, I don't think one may set aside Coleridge's evaluation of the situation based on speculation about his sources or mental qualities at the time of writing. --Flex 17:55, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
That's not an answer. The question isn't why should his quote be left there as why it was inserted in the first place. I'm going to delete it again. And again. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.104.50.237 (talk • contribs)
- I feel that it is important to mention the fact that Michael Servetus was captured, tried, convicted and executed by the civil authorites over which Calvin had no control and who in fact hated him at the time. It is thought that they were ruthless with Servetus in order to prove that they did not need Calvin and his consistory around to administer ecclesiastical discipline. The fact that Calvin requested a 'nicer' death than burning is mentioned but messily. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.104.216.182 (talk • contribs)
- As I said, this whole section needs work, and since it is rather controversial, it certainly needs reliable sources and multiple points of view on the matter. --Flex 13:30, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
- I've admired the work on this page, and chased away the vandals a few times. I also saw the neutrality tag and the difficulty here on the talk page regarding Servetus, so I took up the suggestion of doing a re-write -- thus I hope I can "be bold" in the way Wikipedia suggests and not step on any toes with my effort. The previous text had mistakenly attributed the "cruelly burned" quote to Calvin, it was actually written by William Trie, a French refugee in Geneva. I also agree that the Coleridge quote was out of place. As for my sources, the Goldmans, Reyburn, and MacGrath texts are on Amazon/Google books; Hillerbrand's book consists of long excerpts from the principle figures. Most of all I hope that I've kept a NPOV enough to take down the neutrality tag at the top of the article.
- I also have a suggestion: the section on "Calvin and power" could be improved by separating it into "Calvin and church-state relations," and "Calvin and the Huguenots." Thoughts?
- The Calvin/Servetus re-write has been in place with no comments or edits thus far. The dispute over the previous text appears to be what led to the neutrality tag, and the anonymous editor who placed it there has been silent in the time since. So I believe the tag can come off, based on this text regarding NPOV disputes:
- Note that the templates that can be used for NPOV concerns generally suppose that the suspected NPOV problem is explained on the article's or category's talk page. When all NPOV-related issues detailed on the talk page have been handled, the template should be removed from the article or category page. In most cases, however, the least cumbersome way of handling NPOV concerns would be to improve the article or the category description, so that it is no longer POV.
- I welcome any opinions about this, and the earlier suggestion I made about revising the Calvin and power section.
- Good work! We'll need to wikify and tweak it a bit, I think, but overall it is much better. The last sentence, however, is rather obscure:
- Opinions about the episode are often defined by the same line that separates Calvin's admirers and detractors generally.
- I don't know of any Calvinists since the 1800s who think Calvin was doing the right thing by advocating punishing heresy with death (Schaff doesn't, for instance). Perhaps this should be clarified that Calvin's admirers today (nearly?) universally reject this particular series of events as appropriate and righteous. --Flex (talk|contribs) 15:28, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
- Thanks, glad to contribute to an already well-done article -- tweak away with any improvements you can make.
- Clearly you're right that no modern Calvinist defends punishing heresy with death. I meant to capture what I've read in the way historians (et al) fix the blame for Servetus' execution. Calvin's admirers tend to emphasize how the episode reflected the times and circumstance, while his detractors frame it as Calvin triumphant in a one-sided death match. This may be too much to squeeze into one sentence, though I do think it's important to let readers know that where a historian stands on Calvin will often predict where they sit regarding Servetus.
- Rgfolsom 17:59, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
The number of punished by death
How many people were executed because of religious or political reasons under the influence of Calvin? Was this proportionally more or less than under the inquisition? Xx236 12:32, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
- According to this source, admitedly not perfectly objective, it's around 38: http://reformedanswers.org/answer.asp/file/99812.qna/category/ch/page/questions/site/ Etruth 19:05, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
- I have updated it using the sources that source quotes. --Flex 20:38, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Was this proportionally more or less than under the inquisition? Does it matter? Isn't this like arguing whether Hitler or Stalin was "worse"? --JC
- According to Professor Alister McGrath there was one person executed for thier religious beliefs in Geneva in Calvins lifetime his name was Michael Servetus. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.104.216.182 (talk • contribs)
- Please supply a reliable source for that statistic. --Flex 13:30, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
- Alister E McGrath: A Life of John Calvin p116 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.104.214.59 (talk • contribs)
- Keith Randell - John Calvin and the later reformation P27 says that Servetus was the 'only heretic to suffer the death penalty in Calvin's Geneva (This book has a good balanced chapter on Servetus and is very easy to read) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Steve10806 (talk • contribs)
- further to the above comment Randell states on P30 that although Calvin had execution as the ultimate penalty for many crimes, it was always preceded by banishment and various corporal punishments so only the really persistant ie. Servetus ended up being killed — Preceding unsigned comment added by Steve10806 (talk • contribs)
Calvin and power
In the section called "Calvin and power", we read this:
- Some allege that Calvin was not above using the Consistory to further his own political aims and maintain his absolute control over civil and religious life in Geneva, and, it is argued, he responded harshly to any challenge to his actions. Calvin was reluctant to ordain Genevans, preferring to choose pastors from the stream of French immigrants pouring into the city for the express purpose of supporting Calvin's program of reform. When Pierre Ameaux complained about this practice, some contend that Calvin took it as an attack on his absolute authority as the authority, and he persuaded the city council to require Ameaux to walk through the town dressed in a hair shirt and begging for mercy in the public squares.
I tried to make it more neutral because the previous version sounded like it was written by someone with a chip on her shoulder. Compare this account of Ameaux and Calvin by Philip Schaff. He makes no mention of the issues Ameaux was dissatisfied over but only that he abused Calvin to some folks at a party. Moreover, there seem to be more important instances in the list of questionable punishments in Geneva (e.g., Ami Perrin; cf. Schaff again). In that vein, the account of Servetus needs to be expanded. Perhaps the three subsections under "Reformed Geneva" could be reworked to present a more coherent and neutral picture of what went down in Geneva. --Flex 20:38, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
- It is generally accepted that Calvin did not see a distinction between civil and religious power, in his view the consistory and the council were there to act as one body to implement God's will (unfortunatly the council didnt agree). It is also evident that he didn't have a 'political agenda' in any normal sence of the word he was merely trying to create a city where everyone lived thier lives obediant to the will of God (or what he interpreted as the will of God). This is also why he was so sure of himself, just like servetus he belived that he had to be right because he was doing God's devine will, he regularly quoted the passage in scripture that says 'If God is with us who can be against us' he very much thought and acted in light of this thought.
- I find it hard to approve of the use of websites as infallable sources and on also why is there such heavy focus on the work of Phillip Schaff, anyone reading this talk page would think that he was the only person to have ever written about Calvin some more balanced sources would greatly improve this quite weak article — Preceding unsigned comment added by Steve10806 (talk • contribs)
Regarding content, we all agree it needs some work. You seem like you've done some reading, so please take a stab at it, citing your sources. Regarding website infallibility: What are you talking about exactly? Regarding Schaff: again, as the discussion on this page reflects, we would all like more citations and different perspectives, but it's just a matter of getting someone to do the research and incorporate the material. Besides, Schaff's a fairly reputable church historian and not approving of all that Calvin thought or did, and his 8 volume history of the church is available online for free, which makes it an attractive source. --Flex (talk|contribs) 20:12, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
References for section on Geneva Church?
Excuse me - where might I find more information on the layout and practical workings of Calvin's church in Geneva? Am trying each of the external links in turn, of course, but would appreciate more information. --24.131.207.246 05:55, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
POV Edits
This quote continues to be added by an anonymous user:
- Certainly the veneration of Calvin by several modern Christian denominations in the face his use of torture is morally questionable.
This is strongly biased against Calvin and is not neutral by a long shot. From the looks of things, this user will continue to add this POV statement. Yahnatan 18:48, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
- Torture is immoral. In any time period. For any reason. By any person. End of story. --Jeremy4031
So the fact that Calvin approved it means his other stuff should be eschewed? Your standard against him would disqualify a lot of great people in history, since they didn't have our modern sensibilities. Yahnatan 19:24, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
- Yes. Ah yes; our effete, worthless, secular modern sensibilities that prohibit us from burning people to death. What a terrible innovation they are. Jeremy4031
- [Formatting of above comments adjusted.] First of all, this encyclopedia is intended to be as neutral as possible, and it is more neutral without your comment quoted above. Second, Calvinists don't venerate Calvin. They respect him and his opinions, but all would admit that he was fallible. Third, you are making an ad hominem argument that tries to disqualify Calvin's other opinions because of one that everyone today (including modern Calvinists!) thinks was entirely backwards. No one is defending his (or his contemporaries') view of torture. --Flex 19:44, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
- I agree with Flex; and please review WP:NPOV. Thanks...KHM03 (talk) 21:32, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
- I agree with Flex. As a student at Calvin College some years ago, many people made mention of the mistake of executing Servetus, but we still respected the teachings of Calvin on other matters.--Evadb 14:26, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
- I removed the POV template (which I had added) since this seems resolved. --Flex 18:10, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
- Not to mention that the *burning* of Servetus was opposed by Calvin (who wanted execution by beheading) See, e.g., [4] jrcagle 04:13, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
Bolsec
Removed the following line as i tried to rewrite it but found the evidence to support the statement insufficient. Bolsec did convert back to Roman Catholicism but this may be more to do with his refusal to produce a statement of faith and a discrepancy between his and Calvin's views of predestination. I have fund references that state Bolsec made 'slanderous' accusations after he had returned to the RC church but there is a strong suggestion that the accusations were invented as a retaliation of being rejected by the Reform movement. This may have been the source material for the statement below. Neverthless, even if the comment is to be returned to the document the POV element needs to be removed Johnmarkh 21:51, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
'A close associated of Calvin at Geneva, Jerome Hermes Bolsec, claimed Calvin was an active homosexual and re-converted to Catholicism in disgust.'
Servetus
I restored the section about Servetus agreeing with his own execution. Here's the quote from the citation in the article that allegedly substantiates it: "And strange to say, Servetus himself held, in part at least, the theory under which he suffered: for he admitted that incorrigible obstinacy and malice deserved death, referring to the case of Ananias and Sapphira; while schism and heresy should be punished only by excommunication and exile." --Flex 11:19, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
- Servetus NEVER agreed with his own execution. This is just silly. What you are quoting is the MISQUOTE of Servetus by people the people who burned him. An example of this type of misquoting is Beza who was Calvin's apologist and lackey, Beza asks: “With what power, pray, did Peter put to death Ananias and Sapphira? But notice how Beza misquotes. According to the account, Peter did not put them to death, God did that!. Beza intentionally misquotes because he wants to justify. In the same way Calvin and Beza misquote Servetus who was describing why God struck Ananias and Sapphira dead. He NEVER said that it was right for men to kill him for the crimes of Ananias and Sapphira and never admitted that he (Servetus) was guilty of their crime. If ANYTHING Servetus would have thought that Calvin was the obstinate one. But, in fact, during his trial, Servetus actually argued that the interpretation of the scriptures that authorized the death penalty was a false teaching not found in the original Christian Church. In other words, he DISTINCTLY ARGUED TO THE CONTRARY of this statement. But Calvin and Beza AFTER SERVETUS WAS DEAD made this claim that he covertly assented to his own death. It is nonsense and tripe. This quote is utterly and purely POV justification and needs to go. It is not even appropriately salvagable as "Calvin said X" but if it is included here in that way, we should go into greater detail about how Calvin lied on this subject. --Blue Tie 12:30, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
I'm fine with modifying it, but come up with a source so it doesn't get labeled original research. --Flex 02:17, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
- Actually it would be more appropriate for the person who says that Servitus agreed with his execution to show that cite. Its kinda weird to put in a cite defending the non-inclusion of a thought. But I will come up with a reference for where he argued against the capital punishment. It was during the trial. --Blue Tie 03:07, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
BTW, the quote from Schaff was perhaps poorly used here, but I don't think it's POV. The intent was to communicate that Servetus was just as much a product of his age as Calvin, the other Reformers, the Inquisition, etc. who approved of death for heresy -- a view which has been thoroughly repudiated by the vast majority of Calvin's admirers. IOW, Servetus held the same theory, though I certainly don't dispute that he would have rejected the justice of his own execution, and had the roles been reversed, I don't doubt that we'd be filling in the section for Calvin being executed by Servetus. I'm preparing some further revisions for this section based on Philip Schaff, who was a theological Calvinist, but no defender of his actions here, and on Will Durant, who was no admirer of Calvin or his theological system. --Flex 14:11, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Was Calvin French or Swiss
German Wikipedia call Calvin a Swiss of French origin. English Wikipedia calls him French. Who's right. I'm German, and I think I also learned in School that he's been a Swiss. --212.144.130.152 18:39, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
- He was born in France, but he lived most of his adult life in Switzerland. --Flex 20:41, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
I've started an approach that may apply to Wikipedia's Core Biography articles: creating a branching list page based on in popular culture information. I started that last year while I raised Joan of Arc to featured article when I created Cultural depictions of Joan of Arc, which has become a featured list. Recently I also created Cultural depictions of Alexander the Great out of material that had been deleted from the biography article. Since cultural references sometimes get deleted without discussion, I'd like to suggest this approach as a model for the editors here. Regards, Durova 17:20, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Why Schaff?
A LOT of the references in this page are made to Philip Schaff's books, and a lot of credence is given to his opinion, as if he were the "baseline" from which all other facts and sources are to be interpreted. Given his out and out errors--i.e. that Servetus was somehow involved in a plot with the Duke of Savoy to re-take Geneva for the Catholics--I think this needs to be reexamined. Schaff wasn't just a disinterested historian: He was a Calvinist Christian himself and thus with a "stake" in the way the history of his church and its founders were portrayed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.104.49.216 (talk • contribs)
- I think the whole section needs rewriting with more sources from various points of view, but I don't think Schaff should be disqualified (just as a generally credible Unitarian historian should be a permissible source about Servetus). He is a Calvinist, but not an unqualified supporter of Calvin's deeds. Feel free to add more sources.
- BTW, please stop deleting text to generate less neutral verbiage. For instance, you have repeadedly deleted the italicized phrase in this sentence:
- Some allege that Calvin was not above using the Consistory to further his own political aims and maintain his sway over civil and religious life in Geneva
- This is blatantly against the neutrality policy. --Flex 17:55, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
- GAN error
- Good article nominees
- Good article nominees awaiting review
- Good article nominees without a subtopic
- B-Class biography articles
- B-Class biography (core) articles
- Core biography articles
- Top-importance biography articles
- WikiProject Biography articles
- Unassessed Christianity articles
- Unknown-importance Christianity articles
- WikiProject Christianity articles