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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Ds1994 (talk | contribs) at 17:57, 8 May 2019 (→First biracial child in the monarchy). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Earl of Dumbarton?

As he is not covered by the patents for princely titles, should he be styled by his father's subsidiary peerage? Robin S. Taylor (talk) 13:47, 6 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

That would be logical, but maybe we should wait until that is confirmed by some reliable source before adding the courtesy title to the article. --Editor FIN (talk) 14:11, 6 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Although as you say it may be best to wait, the correct form of address will be Earl of Dumbarton for the first born son. Other sons and daughters will be addressed as 'Lord' and 'Lady' prefixed to their given names. The only way this could change would be for the Sovereign to issue a Letters Patent granting Princely status to any issue of the Duke and Duchess of Sussex.Ds1994 (talk) 14:16, 6 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Yes he should be titled Earl of Dumbarton. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.19.128.62 (talk • contribs) 14:37, 6 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I don't agree. Prince George did not take the title that Prince William uses in Scotland (i.e. Earl of Strathearn). OliWatson (talk) 17:35, 6 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
That's because he has a higher title (of prince), so doesn't use a courtesy title. DrKay (talk) 17:53, 6 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
DrKay is correct Princes don't use courtesy titles. I don't mind waiting but this isn't really a controversial edit to put the title in now. This is no different that the Earl of St Andrews or Earl of Ulster Garlicplanting (talk) 10:07, 7 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

That would be usual... but Harry uses that title in Scotland, so best wait for announcements. DBD 14:51, 6 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Here is a source https://www.clydebankpost.co.uk/news/17621407.new-earl-of-dumbarton-is-born-as-meghan-markle-gives-birth/
They've made a reasonable assumption, but an assumption nonetheless. We should wait for the name and style announcement from the Palace. DBD 14:53, 6 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It may well be that the first son will be styled the Earl of Dumbarton, with the caveat that Prince Harry may be given another Earldom with a Scottish name place for his use in Scotland. There is a precedent for this, but for other reasons, with the Earl of Wessex, who was also recently created Earl of Forfar for use in that country.Ds1994 (talk) 17:15, 6 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
There seems to be a clash between two different conventions and the announcements haven't yet given an answer. One convention is that the additional titles granted to princes in recent year are for use by the princes themselves, at least in Scotland, whereas previous Royal Dukes have generally used the same title everywhere with very localised exceptions (e.g. Prince Andrew only seems to use "Earl of Inverness" in Inverness-shire and "Baron Killyleagh" in Killyleagh, but "Duke of York" in the rest of Scotland and Northern Ireland). Edward's recent new extra Earldom is probably for similar use as his parents' longevity means he hasn't yet been made Duke of Edinburgh.
Complicating all this is that a quick search of the Court Circular suggests that neither Harry nor Meghan have actually undertaken any engagements in Scotland since their wedding, which means that they haven't yet had the option to use "Dumbarton" or not in place of "Sussex" north of the border.
The other convention is that whereas princes don't use courtesy peerages, non-prince eldest sons use one of their father's title as a courtesy title, even if their father is a prince (e.g. the Earl of Ulster, son of Prince Richard, Duke of Gloucester, or the Earl of St Andrews, son of Prince Edward, Duke of Kent).
So "Earl of Dumbarton" means Harry when in Scotland under one convention and his newborn son under the other and nothing official has actually told the world yet. The only other case doesn't reveal anything as I don't think anyone ever intended "Viscount Severn" to be used for anything other than the heir apparent to the Earl of Wessex (and as the Severn Valley was at times part of the kingdom of Wessex even a local distinction is of limited use) but I'm not so sure what use was intended for "Earl of Dumbarton", and the official announcement just describes the baby as "a son" or Doria Ragland's "first grandchild". Timrollpickering (Talk) 19:02, 6 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for that, your contribution does raise some interesting questions. I was not aware, for instance, that Prince Andrew only used his Earldom in the same Scottish county of that name. Logic would suggest the title would be used throughout Scotland? The logic being of course that other members of the Royal Family use their Scottish 'named' titles in Scotland (Duke and Duchess of Rothesay, Earl and Countess of Strathearn etc). If the son of the Duke and Duchess of Sussex is not given princely status then a solution must be found for the courtesy title in question, as clearly the Duke of Sussex and his eldest son cannot use the title of Earl of Dumbarton at the same time! As suggested before time will tell...Ds1994 (talk) 19:33, 6 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I think the shift is recent and probably linked to Scottish devolution, plus there were signs in the late 1990s that republicanism was strongest in Scotland (there was a big TV and phone in poll in about 1997 where Scotland had the only republican majority), hence a desire to strengthen the Scottish brand of the Royal Family, which also may be why steps have been taken to ensure the title Duke of Edinburgh will be reused so quickly. Andrew received his titles in 1986 when there was less concern about this and so by the time the concern came up Brand Andrew (you can just hear the Palace traditionalists screaming at the concept) was too well established as "Duke of York" to start changing. I also suspect that in practice Diana was better known in Scotland as "Princess of Wales" than "Duchess of Rothesay" (whatever the Court Circular used), hence Camilla uses the latter style in Scotland without comment whereas she's deliberately avoided "Princess of Wales" and used "Duchess of Cornwall" elsewhere.
By contrast the indication is that that the Royal Family hasn't been trying to carve out a distinctive Northern Irish brand, with the main titles generally used in Northern Ireland outside the towns in question. The dynamics and concerns there are very different from Scotland. Timrollpickering (Talk) 20:05, 6 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Certainly the change really only dates from Prince William - his creation was the first time BP announced a prince would be known as E of S in Scotland a pattern followed with Harry. Some bright spark clearly decided to mirror the PoW and use a Scottish title. I doubt anyone in BP PR even thought it through. It would never matter for the DoC (as his children are HRH). Even retrospectively using it on older creations like Andrew doesn't mater as he has no son. Edward has just been given a new Scottish Earldom to fill in the gap for him. Harry is the first occasion the problem caused by lack of planning can't be avoided. I daresay if someone had asked Garter this would have all been avoided! Garlicplanting (talk) 10:13, 7 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The correct form for a subsidiary title is Earl Dumbarton. The Earl of Dumbarton is, and remains, Prince Harry. Compare with his two cousins, Viscount Severn the son of Prince Edward, Earl of Wessex; and Viscount Linley, son of the Earl of Snowdon. Jaxsonjo (talk) 04:21, 7 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

No it isn't. of is never removed in such titles. Its the that's traditionally removed in courtesy titles. You misunderstand the differences in the way these titles are created. Apart from a few very rare and ancient scottish viscountcies neither they nor baronies are created with an 'of'. Viscount Severn is Viscount Severn because that is the title. Just as Harry is Baron Kilkeel not Baron of Kilkeel. Garlicplanting (talk) 10:02, 7 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Why "child" rather than "son"?

At least until he's able to talk, when there is always that chance (though statistically miniscule) that he'll object to his gender identity, can't the boy be known as their son? Just askin', not sayin'. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 14:48, 6 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

That's the title that was used for a previous version of this article, written before the child was born. In a few days, when his name and title are announced, the article will be renamed anyway. Rosbif73 (talk) 14:54, 6 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Now the article has been moved back to Son, for some reason. I don't remember this happening last year (Third Child of the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge moved directly to Prince Louis of Cambridge), though it did for George and Charlotte. Personally I don't view it as necessary to move Child to Son/Daughter, as the new title would inevitably be changed again after just a few days once the baby's name is announced. Robin S. Taylor (talk) 16:06, 6 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Not much reason for vagueness that I can see. Looks fine now. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 20:16, 6 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Not an Official British Royal Family Member

According to the Royal Warrant of 1917, the children of the Duke and Duchess of Sussex do not qualify for membership into the British Royal Family. Queen Elizabeth II made an exception to the rule by Letters Patent on December 31, 2012 for ONLY The Duke and Duchess of Cambridge's children. This child is not a Royal Family Member or a British Prince. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.97.71.102 (talk • contribs) 15:03, 6 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The son of the Duke and Duchess of Sussex is 7th in line to the Throne, so you can be assured he is a member of the Royal Family. The absence of the designation "HRH" does not infer that the person concerned is not a member of the Royal Family. Please also note there is no such thing as a 'British prince'. The correct term is 'Prince of the United Kingdom'.Ds1994 (talk) 17:13, 6 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I think the edits from others stand with references. Thank you. 24.97.71.102 (talk) 17:59, 6 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The British royal family has no official definition and the term, as used by the press, often refers to relatives of the monarch who do not retain royal status (such as Lord Downpatrick, Zara Tindall, Lady Sarah Chatto, and Earl of St Andrews). A male-line great-grandchild of the monarch, although in this case of noble status and not royal status, is still a member of the royal House of Windsor and a member of the Mountbatten-Windsor family. -- Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 18:05, 6 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. The contributor who cannot even be bothered to sign in correctly and just reveals their IP address should be ignored.Ds1994 (talk) 19:22, 6 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Earl Mountbatten of Burma was once gravely upset when his position in the Court circular one week had him on a separate line from the rest of the RF. It was a one off but he was very much considered part even though his relationship was far more distant than any we are discussing here. Garlicplanting (talk) 10:25, 7 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 7 May 2019

Re: American citizenship The child will not automatically receive the American citizenship as stated. The parents have the possibility to apply for one at the consulate. There is not automatism. See: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6998727/Prince-Harrys-Meghan-Markles-Baby-Sussex-dual-U-S-British-citizenship.html 2A02:8388:180B:A980:89F6:52C3:436B:A9F8 (talk) 06:58, 7 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  (with a better reference, given that the Daily Mail is a deprecated source). Rosbif73 (talk) 07:23, 7 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The baby is a US Citizen Period. The statement about dual citizenship is incorrect. The baby is a US citizen by function of US law. US Citizenship passes automatically from parent to a child born abroad if the parent meets certain requirements. In this case it’s the parent has lived at least 5 years of their life with 2 years after the age of 14. There’s a lot of misconception about this with lots of media articles saying the child is eligible but not automatically a citizen. This is completely incorrect. The child is automatically a US citizen regardless of whether the birth is registered with the embassy. See link from https://www.uscis.gov/policy-manual/volume-12-part-h-chapter-3 8/5/2019 9:12 AEST

I'm not sure why you are saying that 'dual citizenship' is incorrect? Since Archie Harrison Mountbatten-Windsor was born in the United Kingdom with a father who has British citizenship, the baby is automatically and by legal right a British Citizen. So if you are correct with regard to his American citizenship, then the said Archie Harrison Mountbatten-Windsor has dual nationality of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America (in alphabetic order).Ds1994 (talk) 17:22, 8 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

WP:HAMMER

Is it me, or does this article currently fail WP:HAMMER? Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 09:47, 7 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

WP:HAMMER refers to any future subject for which a name is not yet known and no verifiable information from reliable sources yet exists (my emphasis).Rosbif73 (talk) 10:08, 7 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Place of birth

@Surtsicna: OK. Instead of edit warring we have to talk about the issue. It's true that whatever the sources say would be some sort of speculation, but I would like to point out that the birth place of Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother is not clear either, and both of those possible locations have been included in the infobox of her article. Keivan.fTalk 23:43, 7 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I see, but the difference is that Elizabeth is known to have been born in one of those two places. The place of birth of this baby is completely unknown, Windsor and London being mere speculations. We don't have a reliable source saying that he was definitely born either in Windsor or in London. Surtsicna (talk) 23:47, 7 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

We don't have a reliable source stating that the subject was born in England or in the United Kingdom. He almost certainly was, but we do not have a reliable source. I also think it is silly to list a whole country as the place of birth. I am not sure if it's a common practice, but it's ridiculously uninformative. Surtsicna (talk) 00:00, 8 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

It's a fact that he was born in the UK. It's just not clear where in the UK he was born. And yes, when you don't have the specific birth place, you can list the country instead. Keivan.fTalk 01:30, 8 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
But who reports this fact? Surtsicna (talk) 09:17, 8 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

House of Windsor

I and My Children shall continue to be styled and known as the House and Family of Windsor, My descendants other than descendants enjoying the style, title or attribute of Royal Highness and the titular dignity of Prince or Princess and female descendants who marry and their descendants shall bear the name of Mountbatten-Windsor.

I do not know how this can be interpreted to mean that this child, who is not the child of Elizabeth II or a prince or Royal Highness, belongs to the "House and Family of Windsor". We are not supposed to interpret primary sources, but given this clear wording and the reputable sources saying the subject's surname is Mountbatten-Windsor, I think we need a very strong source (perhaps even official) if we are to list his house as "Windsor". Otherwise we might be better off saying nothing. Surtsicna (talk) 23:52, 7 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

OK. Then we should go with Mountbatten-Windsor. Keivan.fTalk 23:54, 7 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
When, in any other royal or noble house, has a child not been a part of the family of their father unless specifically stated otherwise? I believe it goes without saying that this child is a member of the House of Windsor. Is there a law limiting membership? I doubt it. -- Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 01:29, 8 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The proclamation of Elizabeth II, cited above, seems to limit it quite clearly. I don't think anything should go without saying. In case of doubt, it's better to say nothing. Surtsicna (talk) 09:21, 8 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I think you are overeading into that. The intent in that document was to make clear non HRHs would have that surname. Not to say that they are not members of the H of Windsor. Garlicplanting (talk) 10:52, 8 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps, but who says that? Surtsicna (talk) 10:54, 8 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
As Willthacheerleader18 references you are a member of your fathers house. We need something much more concrete to suggest that they are excluding descendants. I suspect that clumsy wording was designed to head off any suggestions of the royal house changing names that caused a stir in the 50s. Garlicplanting (talk) 11:00, 8 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
"You are a member of your father's house" + "Harry is a member of the House of Windsor" = "the child is a member of the House of Windsor" is original research by synthesis. In other words, it is not an acceptable conclusion. In the absence of an official source that includes him into the House of Windsor, we should neither say that he is nor that he is not a member. Surtsicna (talk) 11:21, 8 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
That you are a member of your father's house is the standard format in both royal and noble families (at least in salic forms) for a thousand years. Its not controversial. If anyone is pushing wiki boundaries on OR you are by deciding they are not a member of the house without anything officially saying so. If the 1960 Declaration wanted to say 'House and Family of Mountbatten Windsor' rather than just a slightly different surname it could easily have done so. Indeed the logical end point of the argument you are making is that no-one is part of the H of W except for the Q and her Children. ie not William or Harry. The neutral position is simple to not assume any change; they are part of the HoW until told otherwise. Garlicplanting (talk) 11:33, 8 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I would be pushing Wiki boundaries on OR if I wanted the article to state that the child is not a member of the House of Windsor. I want the article to state nothing about the child's house because nothing has been officially said about it while contradictory information exists. Your argument about a thousand-year-old tradition applying to someone born two days ago is the epitome of WP:SYNTH. Surtsicna (talk) 11:54, 8 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

First biracial child in the monarchy

I don't know that it's accurate to say that the child is the first biracial child in the monarchy. Both of Lady Davina Lewis's children are part Maori. smash (talk) 14:52, 8 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Look at Mariah Carey. Her mother is pure Irish and her father was biracial. Meghan is biracial (white/black), while Harry is pure British. Quadroon is not a term I'm fond of, but maybe we could look here for some guidance? The baby is 1/4 black, 3/4 white like Julian Thicke (Robin and Paula's son).

The term 'biracial' isn't correct anyway. Meghan Duchess of Sussex may clearly be described as biracial, but this epithet cannot be applied to any children, simply because the arithmatic is against it.Ds1994 (talk) 17:57, 8 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I can't do anymore, but Danthirlby keeps adding copyright violation image to the article. Govvy (talk) 12:08, 8 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Charities

I have added a paragraph which has been deleted with edit summary "This reads like an ad. Wikipedia is not supposed to advertise any charities. It is also not biographical information. All things considered, this is not a helpful addition.": here to discuss.

Is this an appropriate addition? It is similar to the information at Wedding_of_Prince_Harry_and_Meghan_Markle#Charitable_donations.

The parents requested that anyone wishing to send gifts for their baby should support one of four charities: Baby2Baby, Little Village, Lunchbox Fund and WellChild.[1]

I have created an article for Little Village (charity), and WellChild already exists. PamD 12:14, 8 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

To me, it reads like an advertisement of the charities. I don't think that's appropriate. I am also concerned about the biographical relevance here. Someone else asked that others donate to charity. I realize that the child himself is yet to do anything notable, but I don't think we should clutter the article with information about other people's actions in the mean time. Surtsicna (talk) 12:20, 8 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
To me, it's a description of how his parents asked people to celebrate his birth, and relevant here. PamD 16:34, 8 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ "The Duke and Duchess of Sussex's Baby: Gifts and charitable donations". The Royal Household. April 2019. Retrieved 8 May 2019.

Semi-protected edit request on 8 May 2019

The title of the page should be Archie Harrison Mountbatten-Windsor, Earl of Dumbarton Dachgr01 (talk) 15:52, 8 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Firstly, there is no current need to change the title of the page as it has not been confirmed if Archie will be taking the title of Earl of Dumbarton or not. Secondly, there is no need to use the full name in the page title. If it is confirmed he will take the title, the page title should then be changed to "Archie, Earl of Dumbarton" or "Archie Mountbatten-Windsor, Earl of Dumbarton". Mesmeilleurs (talk) 15:57, 8 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: What Mesmeilleurs said. aboideautalk 15:59, 8 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 8 May 2019

Remove 'Earl' references - Any reference to Earl is almost certainly irrelevant now the name has been revealed - by giving it an official surname it will not likely be titled at all. 78.150.116.14 (talk) 16:26, 8 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Not done: This is speculation. There cannot be any definitive edits until this is announced properly by official sources. James, Viscount Severn has the same official surname, Mountbatten-Windsor, but still possesses his father's subsidiary title, so I don't agree with your reasoning. Mesmeilleurs (talk) 16:34, 8 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
 Done actually. There are no further references to the Earl title other than a cited source saying he could have been one but the parents decided not to. Thanks  — Amakuru (talk) 17:28, 8 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure if anything has been decided though? The use of the title Earl of Dumbarton by the eldest son is just by 'courtesy'. They may or may not decide to use it at any given time. You cannot assume at this stage that the courtesy title will not be used.Ds1994 (talk) 17:36, 8 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Really?

I know that Meghan's maternal family has lived working class lives, but doesn't this seem a tad demeaning and insensitive? Especially when you consider that Doria has a Master's Degree in Social Work, lived a solidly middle class life and is the only closely-related relative with sanity and dignity, it seems a tad wrong to play up the poverty in her mother's side. It is technically accurate, but there is nothing wrong with being working class and it reads to play up the baby's paternal nobility and look down on his maternal "more humble" side. Thomas Markle also has distant ancestors of nobility, if it matters?

I think it's a good thing because it shows the wide range of backgrounds the child has in his heritage. We can't change the stories of Meghan's ancestors, and it might seem worse when put beside the British royal family. But I think its something they can be proud of. We can't go into intricate detail on all of his ancestors' lives in his article. I don't think it's looking down; it is what it is. Mesmeilleurs (talk) 16:51, 8 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Uncle, not Brother

In the "Title and succession" section, it says he is preceded in the line of succession by "his father (the Prince of Wales), his brother (the Duke of Cambridge), and his brother's three children." The subject of the sentence is Archie so it seems odd to refer to Prince William as "his brother". It would be clearer to say, "his father (the Prince of Wales), his uncle (the Duke of Cambridge), and his uncle's three children."170.20.11.20 (talk) 16:46, 8 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The subject of the sentence is the Duke of Sussex. DrKay (talk) 16:50, 8 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Redirects

We need to start deciding what redirects to keep and which ones to zap now before they get too entrenched. Remember a redirect doesn't have to be accurate and indeed inaccurate names/titles that people could be reasonably searching for are desirable.

  • Prince Archie of Sussex
  • Prince Archibald of Sussex
    • He's not currently a prince and will only become so if/when his grandfather ascends the throne or if another monarch issues letters patent making him so. But it's likely people will assume he already is and search for him as such, including under a more formal name.

Thoughts? Timrollpickering (Talk) 17:21, 8 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I think the last four definitely need to be deleted. We had similar redirects created for the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge's children, but they were all deleted after their names were announced. And, since he's not a prince by law, Prince Archie of Sussex needs to be deleted as well, in my opinion. Keivan.fTalk 17:38, 8 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Master Archie

Master is the term used for the heir of a Scottish peerage. So is it thought as "Master of Dumbarton", heir to the Earl of Dumbarton that Harry is? --Mimich (talk) 17:46, 8 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think so. I think it just means "Master" as in the younger form of "Mister". I think it just means young man. Mesmeilleurs (talk) 17:50, 8 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Also, the subsidiary title for the Earldom of Dumbarton in its first creation was Lord Ettrick, which is not currently being used. Mesmeilleurs (talk) 17:54, 8 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
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