Talk:Pimentel (surname)

Origins of the surname versus prevalence

"You are misreading the article. Nowhere does it state the surname originated in Brazil. It says the surname derived from a Portuguese word. I'm sure it is a surname in Brazil, maybe common." -Cotton2

This is, indeed, a surname that is common in Brazil. It can be found throughout the Americas and the world. All we could ultimately prove is that the surname is of European origin, first recorded in what is today modern Spain/Portugal (more or less "Iberia" with the exception of Andorra, etc.)

This is why it is not strange to list the surname as being of Portuguese or Spanish origin, but it is quite strange to point out only one of the many countries where this surname has spread to (Brazil). This edit was only made recently and does not provide sources either.

It is also important to revert the removal of the Sehphardi Jewish aspect of this surname. I only added references that support this association, but would be happy to do more research. Mglxyz (talk) 01:04, 29 October 2016 (UTC)

References

There is no more reason to add Brazil as there is Spain or Portugal. Some editor thinks these countries have a higher than average occurrence of the surname, like Smith in the US or Patel in India. An additional paragraph on the origins of the surname, with sources, would be welcome. Most of these types of articles are just lists of people. Please don't take this personally, lot's of things added to WP incorrectly in the past, and will be in the future. There's a 12,000 article backlog to be reviewed at the moment. When I review a new addition, I try to get it right, and it helps you in the long run to be a good contributor. What we are all striving for. Cotton2 (talk) 01:29, 29 October 2016 (UTC)

Again, you appear to be reading origin in Spain Portugal into the article. This is what the article actually says...Pimentel is a Portuguese, Spanish, Brazilian,[1] and Sephardi Jewish[2][3] surname derived from the Portuguese word pimenta (pepper).. I have put Brazil back in the article, with sources. You also seem to have some WP:OWNERSHIP issues with the article. Please observe a WP:NPOV. Cotton2 (talk) 02:02, 29 October 2016 (UTC)

Unfortunately, many people still do not know about the strong Portuguese Sephardic origin of the Pimentel surname. This surname can be found even today I countries such as England, France,Germany and Holland, especially the latter. In fact Holland had many Pimentel before WWII, but murdered most of them. I have been researching this topic for a long, long time, so I know what I am talking about. Just check online and you will find hundreds of records of the Portuguese Sephardic Pimentel from before pre and post WWII. The same goes for England, France and Germany but on a lesser scale. Those Pimentel from the above mentioned countries went there after 1496 from Portugal to escape the ravages of the inquisition. But contrary to the Spanish Jews, the vast majority of the Portuguese Sephardim remained in Portugal and were forcibly converted, adopted new surnames, and became 'New Christians'. In Lisbon, Portugal there is a National Archive Centre that has thousands, and thousands of records of the Portuguese New Christians who were tried and convicted in the Inquisition tribunals of relapsing into Judaism. Those records contain, among many, many other surnames, there are hundreds of tribunal records of surnames of relapsed Judaizer New Christians such as: Pereira, Oliveira, Silva, Pimentel, Pacheco, Rodrigues, Cardozo, Nunes, Mendes, Henriques, Costa, Teixeira, Lima, etc. In Holland and the other countries of the diaspora, the Portuguese Jews were able to freely observe their Jewish faith, and prospered. Many became physicians, Lawyers, Scholars, Scientists, Merchants and Financiers. They were particularly successful as merchants and businessman. In fact, in European it was common knowledge that to do any business in Europe you had to have aa 'Portuguese' partner - 'Portuguese' was synonymous with 'Jewish'. Hence, the Portuguese Jews in Holland and elsewhere in Europe flourished up until the Holocaust. The Sephardim that went to Azores, Cape Verde. Cochin, India, and Brazil weren't so lucky, as the inquisition followed them to those places. Any of the Portuguese colonies were very dangerous places to be. In Brazil, initially the Jews were able to more or less observe their faith, but eventually the inquisitors found them. Thus, the Portuguese Brazilian Jews eventually had to renounce their Judaism or leave. In fact, Manu did leave and went places like: Guyana,Barbados, Jamaica, Netherlands Antilles, the Virginias in the USA, and eventually ended up in what was then Dutch New York. Even today there many Portuguese Jewish descendants with surnames such as: Rodrigues, Cardozo, Pimentel, Lobato, Henriques, Pereira, Mendes, Silva, etc. It is estimated that in Brazil there are many, many millions of Portuguese Jewish descendants, and in the Azores, particularly the island os Sao Miguel, it is believed that perhaps 80% have Jewish ancestry. This is easy to believe as Sao Miguel island was comprised of approx. 35% Portuguese Jews when the Azores were first settled back in the late 1400s. In Portugal it is also believed that around 80% have Jewish ancestry - don't forget, that the majority of the Portuguese Jews stayed in Portugal, converted to Christianity, became New Christians, and assimilated into the general Catholic population - in time, their Jewish origin was forgotten, save some families were some Jewish customs and traditions were somewhat preserved, from generation to generation by the females. Interestingly, there is a town in Portugal called Belmont,where up until about 20 years ago, the locals thought they were the only Jews alive! For 500 years the women led the prayers in secret of course. Years ago a Polish Jew went there and by accident discovered that 'Crypto-Jewish' community of Belmonte. They were suspicious of him, and it was only after he said the word 'Adonai = God in Hebrew' that they finally realized and believed that he was Jewish. Today they have their own small synagogue and a Rabbi.

So, the Portuguese Sephardic Jewish connection to Portugal, Brazil, Azores, Cape Verde. England, the USA & Holland, among other countries is very, very deep. I have only barely touched on some of sources of evidence about the Portuguese Sephardic Jews and how enmeshed their blood and history is particularly with the Portuguese and Brazilian people. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2607:FEA8:1220:5B3:9825:4543:C608:215C (talk) 01:41, 10 July 2019 (UTC)

I think you still misunderstand what I meant. There is a categorical distinction between the countries/region of origin and the countries where the name is common. Smith is an American name in the sense that it is common in the United States (as it likely is in Australia, Canada, and the whole Commonwealth, etc). Yet, Smith's wiki page itself distinguishes that "Smith is a surname[3] originating in England. It is the most prevalent surname in the United Kingdom,[1] Australia and the United States." It does not refer to Smith as an American name in the manner that you refer to Pimentel as a Brazilian name. I think it made more sense to exclude Brazil, because why include Brazil but not Portugal (as a country, not a descriptor), Dominican Republic, Philippines, Angola?

Following this logic, Pimentel is, indeed, a Filipino surname, as it is neither uncommon nor rare there. See Aquilino Pimentel III and Aquilino Pimentel Jr.

I only agree with the article as currently written because I cannot prove or reference that Pimentel originated in Spain or Portugal or any particular location. That would solve this issue because Brazil could only be listed as a country where the surname is "prevalent"/"common", mirroring the logic of the Smith article, rather than being used as an adjective (Brazilian) suggesting that Pimentel originated in Brazil, which it did not.

Mglxyz (talk) 02:25, 29 October 2016 (UTC)

References