Talk:Bloody Christmas (1963)

POV, hoax and propaganda article

All alleged crimes and attacks, according to the article came from the Greek Cypriot side (an obvious hoax) and someone may want to notify its editors that Cyprus is not Turkey (an obvious basic knowledge) You can imagine my shock, why this article is in this state.Lol! (This article is within the scope of WikiProject Turkey, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Turkey and related topics on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.)Lol!Jazz1972 (talk) 23:11, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

Loss of the both sides and the Death rate

In the first version of the article, I'd written about the death rate: 'a death rate ten times higher than that of Greek Cypriots'. Why do you need to hide that as well? Serhan (talk) 04:42, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Barbarian Photo

Maybe we should add this photo to the article, as this one is like a symbol of the events.. http://img.webme.com/pic/g/gizliilimler/sayfa_24_1.gif (Turkish Cypriots civilians in their bathtub killed by Greek Cypriots) Serhan (talk) 04:53, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Calm down. Some pics have not made their way through WP but they do exist in collective memory. There are other (better, not violent) pics in which you see Turkish Cypriot people crying for their dead ones; search "Hürriyet". --E4024 (talk) 11:40, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

1. [...]
2. Sener Levent, the publisher of the Turkish Cypriot daily ‘Afrika,’ strongly suggests that the truth behind the appalling photograph you attached is altogether very different of what you insinuated. Btw for this reasons and other multiple attempts have been made to kill Levent. 23x2 _φ 12:52, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Answer: 23x2, don't believe every EOKA-B propaganda you hear; you may feel embarrassed later. Don't forget, they even made Greek Cypriots lynch other Greek Cypriots, those who wanted to live in peace with the Turks, beating them to death with nailed clubs in the streets of Cyprus. Anyway, if you want to learn the life story of retired brigadier general and M.D. Nihat Ilhan, you can find it here, from his own words. BTW, when he lived that tragedy in Cyprus he was only a major and later was promoted to lieutenant colonel, colonel, and brigadier general in an excellent career. If someone had killed your family brutally you would also need therapy but could not get much promoted in your profession as a doctor and as an officer if you had a mental disorder... --E4024 (talk) 15:31, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Em, i think you must be a bit confused or maybe i am. Was Ahmed Baran and Sener Levent members of EOKA B? 23x2 _φ 17:15, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

"Maybe" is a good beginning; especially if that takes you to suspect what has been taught to you, especially by the Church-run Greek Cypriot education system. On the other hand, I am enclosing here the press coverage of the return of the retired doctor-brigadier General to the island after 44 years, together with his second wife and children. There you can read his explanation of that propaganda or you may ask your teacher of Turkish to translate the news for you. --E4024 (talk) 17:32, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

[...] Why would Sener Levent risk his life to state something like this, when he knows that there are fanatics, you know who, around? A brave man, a very brave man. Have you met him? 23x2 _φ 17:46, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

@E4024.

Here in Cyprus, the Religious knowledge subject is optional in contrast to Turkey where it is madantory. Relegion and History do not go together in the Greek Cypriot education system.

1. All the sources you provide are from Turkey or North Cyprus. I will base my arguments on facts and common sense:
2. The house that the murder happened was in a Turkish sector. Did the armed greek Cypriots break in the Turkish sector and started killing?
3. The murder was said to had been commited by machine guns. ("The Genoside files"). Do you see any bullet holes on the bodies or on the walls?
4. The photographer (Ahmed Baran) that took the photos actually confessed in an actual face to face interview that he was forced to do so by TMT.
5. Soon after the confession, a person called Tom Roche stated that the actual photographer was someone called Stan Meagher (who was dead at the time of confession). Quite a coincidence isn't it?
6. The "new" photographer Stan Meagher had been proved only a month after the events that he went to the UK and became a celebrity photographer.

Most importandly, Sener Levent, a reporter from the Turkish Cypriot newspaper Africa expanded info on the story.

"Hasan Kudum was hurt during the bathroom massacre incident but he did not lose his life. Asked by his friends if those who came to kill them spoke between them Greek or Turkish, Hasan Kudum stated: There were persons who spoke Greek and there were persons who spoke Turkish. The second information is related to a person who was known under the name Bozkurt (Grey wolf) and later it was found out that his real name was Kenan Coskun. Nihat Ilhan, whose wife and three children were killed in the incident, went to Kenan Coskun and asked him: Has the organisation killed my family in order to secure the intervention of Turkey in the island?. The answer given by Kenan Coskun and bothered Nihat Ilhan was the following: Go and take revenge. He did not tell him from where to take revenge."(AFRICA NEWSPAPER)

Note that there have been many attempts on Levent's life.

P.S I do recognize that some G/C did hurt T/C [...] 201.86.70.162 (talk) 18:40, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Some Greek Cypriots did hurt Turkish Cypriots? Really? This is what you have got to say for the hundreds of Turkish civilians either massacred or killed indivually? Thanks for your comprehension. --E4024 (talk) 18:47, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Keep your tone down and start being polite. Both sides commited crimes. It was just a matter of speech. [...] Many G/C died as well.TMT also commited some terrible crimes. Turkish soldiers during the military operation also commited terrible crimes. The group of "people" in EOKA B does not represent the whole G/C population. But many of those lost their homes, got tortured,raped and died. Attrocities were commited by both sides and propagandish images(see bathtub photo) serve only propaganda purposes. 201.86.70.162 (talk) 19:00, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

First of all I am very polite. Secondly, if you look at the beginning of the thread you will see that I dislike this kind of pics or texts in WP. Last but not the least, we had some mourning Turkish people's pics in relevant massacre articles but a team of "Greek Cypriot POV" (I am not talking about their nationality, that is something I cannot know) editors did everything possible to remove them. Regrettably there are not enough "patient" impartial users here to cope with that editing style... --E4024 (talk) 19:43, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Like ever time when we talk about Greek, they are purely innocent in every events but when we talk about Turks, they are barbaric murderers. This article does not even reflect the barbarism that Greeks had made. This is a disgrace. Shame on you, shame on ppl you dont have guts to put that picture on the article. Shame! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.176.196.24 (talk) 16:32, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

Merge the article

This article should not be speedy deleted as being recently created, having no relevant page history and duplicating an existing English Wikipedia topic, because... it is notable and will be developed to become a full-fledged article. Indeed the topic is a historical concept and some circles are trying to put it into oblivion. WP has no reason to follow suit of that nationalist POV. No reason to delete this stub. --E4024 (talk) 20:49, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

I agree with the merge. This article simply is a WP:POVFORK. It was created to highlight a negative viewpoint of fact (having a nationalistic content twist, distorting the historical accuracy of the events at that). The content is already included in the Cypriot intercommunal violence article. E4024 why should we have two articles describing the same events? Please explain. 23x2 _φ 21:03, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

I don't agree with the merge. This is a historical event and unfortunately fact. Why do you try to hide this barbarian event? Just be enough fair to face with your history. Serhan (talk) 04:42, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Serhan, I do not agree with that idea either, and no-one will merge it. There are similar articles in two other WPs and this is a known, notable event. The EOKA-B not only killed Turkish civilians but also lynched Greek Cypriots who objected to those massacres. (See recent discussions in Southern Cyprus public opinion.) A merge can only occur under the "Bloody Christmas" name but perhaps it is still early for that. (I remember that in a prior discussion, one user questioned "if the muslim Turks celebrated Christmas" (sic) while talking about "assassination of innocent people"...) I understand your frustration with WP, something not too far away to me, but I kindly request you to tone down your rhetoric. We are Mediterranean and passionate but WP requires more cold blood. Dedicate your energy to continue developing this article. --E4024 (talk) 11:33, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

The article which exists is titled Cypriot intercommunal violence. Why should we merge the two under so called "Bloody Christmas" title? 23x2 _φ 21:25, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Support the Merge: This describes an event of the Cypriot intercommunal violence and should therefore be merged into it. That said, it is also important to notice that it is very non-neutral. 79.141.173.62 (talk) 14:37, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

The merge of both topics do not fit into the same cluster as the intentions and perspectives differ in each. Besides how can you suggest to delete an event in the history, particularly if it had been witnessed by tousands who are still alive and share their stories. Completely unagreeable and conflicts with collective creation principle of WP. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.204.105.139 (talk) 06:09, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

This discussion is to merge this article into Cypriot intercommunal violence as it is a WP:POVFORK of the latter. 23x2 _φ 21:25, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

(Removed sock contribution.) --E4024 (talk) 21:10, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Hello JCA100. Thank you for your contributions to the article's discussion page. Proof 1: I added these 8 nights to the period as well. Proof 2: I did mention the reference with the quote again. I did not understand why somebody deleted it before but this time I used the very same words as in the source to keep it from misunderstandings. Proof 3: Obviously your only source is Google. I added the page number on my reference as well and a URL to the search function you have used. Please keep on helping to make this article better. (And please don't forget to add your signature.) Sbasturk (talk) 02:16, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

Sbasturk, when you say you "add" sources, the sources you add need to say what you are claiming they are saying. You use WP:SYNTH to make your arguments, and that is wrong. Plus the issue here is that all of these are mentioned in another article Cypriot intercommunal violence as i have said before. 23x2 _φ 10:23, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

I think we don't need this 'merge' banner in the article page. I'll be continue to work on this article better. But to my point of view the article is already enough to be separate. Please remove it. Sbasturk (talk) 11:58, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose While Cypriot intercommunal violence refers to a broad period this article refers to an event and it is notable. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 19:09, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

• Merge: I strongly believe that this is a POV FORK for the reasons I stated on the section below — Preceding unsigned comment added by Moris560 (talk • contribs) 15:57, 9 June 2013 (UTC)
• I understand this is of sentimental importance to all of you however the Reasons to merge this article to Cypriot intercommunal violence are obvious, i think. It is a Duplicate: There are two articles on exactly the same subject, with the same scope. Overlap: There are two pages on this subject that have a large overlap. Wikipedia is not a dictionary; there does not need to be a separate entry for every concept. For example, "flammable" and "non-flammable" can both be explained in an article on flammability, likewise "Bloody Christmas" is in fact explained in Cypriot intercommunal violence.23x2 _φ 17:45, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

This has nothing to do with sentiment. In WP wars and battles have different articles. I can give many many examples. For example Caucasus Campaign is the name of a front in the First World War and there are more than 10 battles in Caucasus Campaign all of which have different articles. (see for example battle of Ardahan) Nobody tries to merge the Battle of Ardahan to Caucasus Campaign or Caucasus Campaign to First World War. The situation here is not much different. Cypriot intercommunal violence is the war and the Bloody Christmas (1963) is a pogrom in the war which needs a special attention. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 18:53, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

• Merge This article refers to an otherwise not widely notable event, which only makes sense in context. The context is inter-community violence in that island. Cheers. -The Gnome (talk) 07:54, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

How long?

How long will this unnecessary merge-suggestion banner stand there? Do we have to convince every single non-NPOV human on earth about that? Or how is it working? Sbasturk (talk) 20:51, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

You (or we) do not have to convince anybody, Serhan; it's the other way round. Sit back and edit other articles. Cheers. --E4024 (talk) 20:59, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

Please DO NOT merge or redirect the article as there is no consensus for this.Sbasturk (talk) 15:02, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

NPOV

This article is abundant of non NPON language and as such it should be properly handled. One can spot from the lead sentence "military campaign initiated by Greek Cypriots against minority Turkish Cypriots" how biased the article is. Even the title is a not a common name but a name used by one of the 2 sides (rightfully or unrightfully). Furthermore, the article defines this as the cause and head-point of the tension. Totally biased article. Moris560 (talk) 14:27, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

270 mosques desecrated on the night between 20–21 December 1963 ?

What are the primary sources for this ? The Michael Stephen link is not helpful at all. TheWickerMan2014 (talk) 17:19, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

Does "Bloody Christmas" refer to a single night or a period of a few days or weeks around Christmas time ?

It's not clear from the article. TheWickerMan2014 (talk) 17:33, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

Papadopoulos's false claim

Everyone, including all Greeks, know Turkish Cypriots were killed in a clash with Greek Cypriots in 1967 (Kophinou). It's unclear why Papadopoulos would say a thing that everyone knows is false. Why is Papadopoulos's erroneous claim in this article ? How is it important and related to Bloody Christmas ? TheWickerMan2014 (talk) 17:57, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

ref wrong address

Thanks User:Nargothronde for your recent contibutions to the article. Ref 20 of the current version, is not working though, it is a dead link. <ref>{{cite web|author=Ulvi KESER|title=Bloody Christmas of 1963 in Cyprus in the Light of American Documents|url=http://dergipark.gov.tr/download/article-file/235745.pdf|accessdate=31 October 2018}}</ref> Can you fix it please? Cinadon36 (talk) 07:32, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

Thank you Cinadon36 for pointing that out to me. Here I have the following: and it seems to work fine. When I access the article page on my end the link seems to be functional? Maybe it's because I edited and published the links quite a few times before I got the format right?

References

Nope still not working. "An Error Occurred Error Code: #6337523 Please send the related error together with the error code to ulakbim.dpdestek@tubitak.gov.tr." Maybe try to log out and check it once more. Best Cinadon36 (talk) 07:47, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

Fixed now, I think. --T*U (talk) 12:13, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

Who has been editing this article?

Who wrote this?

For a start, on: "Bloody Christmas' (Template:Lang-tr) is a term used mainly (but not exclusively) in Turkish Cypriot and Turkish historiography, referring to the outbreak of the tension between the Greek Cypriots and the Turkish Cypriots on the night between 20–21 December 1963 and the subsequent period of island-wide violence amounting to civil war.

The term Bloody Christmas is not used in official Greek Cypriot and Greek historiography, which contends that the outbreak of violenece was a result of a Turkish Cypriot rebellion (Tourkantarsia) against the lawful government of the Republic of Cyprus."

This is a needless and irrelevant diatribe of information. There's no need to dabble on with sentences like "a term used mainly (but not exclusively)" or "... in Turkish Cypriot and Turkish historiography". First of all, I think this needs to focus on one set of words and one explanation. Secondly, this is an article not on the term or its use, but on the event. For example, if you see the article on Christmas it doesn't say "is a term used mainly (but not exclusively by) Christians and Christian historiography". I also don't think it's appropriate to explain things in the way that you have; beyond the language not being consistent, the information and the references provided are taken slightly out of context. Also, it is not a term used mainly by the Turkish Cypriots. It is an event accepted by the Turkish Cypriots. Contrastingly the event is denied by the Greek Cypriots, and that also plays into the Greek Cypriot official discourse and the narrative it tries to push. There is a big difference between this and what you just suggested.

There are other places throughout the article where I'd like to make similar comments, but I'm not going to reference them all.

I suggest you take another look at the edits you're making to this article and substantially revise your edits. Nargothronde (talk) 03:56, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

p.s. be careful not to allow your attempts to make this article more neutral, as I've seen being suggested in some of the edit summaries, turn into subtle-POV pushing, partisan or bias etc, as that is kinda what I'm seeing here in these changes. See Tendentious Editing Nargothronde (talk) 04:01, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

p.s.2. ALSO, I'm seeing a lot of bias and strong pro-Greek Cypriot POV pushing and strong anti-Turkish Cypriot pushing in your language. It's rife with it. I'm also seeing a lot of polarising language being used here; most of it focuses on presenting a Turkish Cypriot VS Greek Cypriot narrative of things, as opposed to the previous version prior to these edits. I kindly suggest that is also looked into. Nargothronde (talk) 04:06, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

References

Nargothronde, who wrote it is rather irrelevant. We are not here to play a blame game. But you can use external tools in the history page and find out. But I wouldnt do it if I were you. Cinadon36 (talk) 13:17, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

• Thanks for bringing this up. You may wish to see this section on my talk page. Many of the edits pushed by that anonymous user do indeed contain severe POV and suppression of reliable sources that classify the official G/C position on this as denialism (Demetriou even makes parallels with Armenian Genocide denial). We may not, as Wikipedia, under any circumstances, act in contravention to established third-party literature to accommodate the views of Greek/Greek Cypriot right-wingers as if they should carry an equal weight in the representation of facts. We don't do that with Turkish right-wingers in many articles and we may not do so with Greek ones either. I did not revert the anonymous user's edits on account of their constructive stance (and indeed some bits were OK) but I haven't had the time to follow it up since. This article should most certainly be rectified. --GGT (talk) 00:53, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

But also, this is not OK. --GGT (talk) 01:29, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

Thanks Cinadon36 and GGT. I wasn't trying to start a blame game or call the editor out. I just wanted to highlight what GGT has just explained, and make a few suggestions. I think I'm still a fair bit away from knowing how to express things correctly,so thanks again for the advice! It's slowly but surely making me better understand what I should do and how I should go about it. My additions were just some suggestions. Maybe I can post them on the Talk Page for discussion. Also, if I want to post certain suggestions for a community consensus, how might I go about doing that? Thanks again! Nargothronde (talk) 02:37, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

Greek Cypriot official view

I made some changes to the Greek Cypriot official view section. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Bloody_Christmas_(1963)&oldid=prev&diff=875550243

The reasoning was (as incl. in the edit summary): "an approach to the events of Bloody Christmas that "parallels denialist strategies"" is a euphemism of "a denialist approach to the events of Bloody Christmas" | "this was used" implies past tense when it is still an ongoing issue | we are only citing that Greek Cypriot media called Papadopoulos' claim a lie, so no need to mention both Greek & Turkish Cypriot media beforehand."

This was reverted citing: "That's how the reliable source describes it. In Wikipedia we go by RS. Get used to it."

• 1) If "That's how the reliable source describes it", does that justify directly copying and pasting it here? cite: WP:Copy-paste
• 2) Does that justify including WP:EUPHEMISM?
• 3) Why is the following reference: citing a "journal" article from Cyprus Mail, a daily newspaper, that cannot be found except by reference?
• 4) Why if there is no mention or citing of "both Greek Cypriot and Turkish Cypriot media" do we need to mention so?
• 5) I've been told on the page Fazıl Küçük that using a reference from SAM (Center for Strategic Research) under the Turkish Ministry of Foreign Affairs is "hardly a third party NPOV source as required by WP:RS". SO Is a reference titled 'Struck by the Turks' and written by Olga Demetriou, who is co-editor and reviewer of The Cyprus Review under the University of Nicosia, the Associate Editor in Social Sciences of the Journal of Modern Greek Studies etc, a "reliable "third-party" source"? Where's the line being drawn here between what is a "reliable "third-party" source" and what isn't?

I'd also like to invite Dr.K. to take a look at this; maybe he/she could shed some light here.

Nargothronde (talk) 02:50, 28 December 2018 (UTC)

References

Nargothronde,

• 1)copy-paste small phrases is not restricted if an in-text attribution is given and brackets are used (and a proper inline reference of of course). Have a look at WP:CLOP "Limited close paraphrasing is appropriate within reason, as is quoting, so long as the material is clearly attributed in the text – for example, by adding "John Smith wrote ...", together with a footnote containing the citation at the end of the clause, sentence or paragraph. Limited close paraphrasing is also appropriate if there are only a limited number of ways to say the same thing." You do have two points a) the current text is not attributed and b)It is better not to use limited close paraphrasing whenever possible.Your suggested wording does not properly summarizes Demetriou's text.
• 2)Does not look like euphemism to me.
• 3)Most prob because it is an article dating from 2004.
• 4)If a sentence is not outrageous but is non referenced either, the best approach is to add {{citation needed}}, and wait a couple of months before removing it- that is if not source is presented.
• 5)Lets not discuss discussions of other talk pages. Sources are not required to be NPOV. Have a look here WP:NEUTRALEDITOR07:49, 3 January 2019 (UTC)Cinadon36 (talk)

Addition to 3): Cyprus Mail article is accessible for registered users: here. --T*U (talk) 09:58, 3 January 2019 (UTC)

Addition to 4): It is referenced to the given source (Stavrinides). The reference is now a dead link, I will fix it soon. --T*U (talk) 15:50, 3 January 2019 (UTC)

Excellent feedback. Thanks alot Cinadon36 & T*U. Nargothronde (talk) 02:24, 4 January 2019 (UTC)

Reverted this pile of Propaganda garbage

I have deleted a section which appears to be totally POV in favor of the Turkish viewpoint and propaganda policy of Turkish occupation of the Cyprus regime. I re-post it here, highlighting the propaganda, line by line:

Greek Cypriot official view

The Greek Cypriot official discourse follows an approach to the events of Bloody Christmas described as "parallels denialist strategies". PROPAGANDA - who described it thus, and to what POV? One person's opinion that suits the Turkish viewpoint?

This is still reflected in their history textbooks today, and has the effect of presenting the Greek Cypriots as the victims of Turkish Cypriot aggression, although the majority of the victims were Turkish Cypriot.

PROPAGANDA - "IN THEIR HISTORY TEXTBOOKS" - POV - the author is writing from a Turkish perspective

This, in a sense, parallels denialist strategies that, for example and albeit in cruder form, draw on the battle of Van in 1915 to present Armenians as aggressors against Turks and deny the genocide. This has been used by the Republic of Cyprus to legitimise human rights violations against Turkish Cypriots, the suspension of their political rights, and, until 2003, the exclusion of Turkish Cypriots from the framing of the missing people by the Republic of Cyprus.

PROPAGANDA - legitimize WHAT human rights violations? You invaded us. You killed our people and hid 1000 of their bodies. You continue to ethnically cleanse us from northern Cyprus. Who are you talking about??? Specify your claims and back them up with secondary research evidence.

In 2004, Greek Cypriot President Tassos Papadopoulos said in an interview that no Turkish Cypriots were killed between 1963 and 1974. Reaction to this claim appeared in the Greek and Turkish Cypriot media, with some Greek Cypriot media calling Papadopoulos's claim a blatant lie.

PROPAGANDA - CHERRY PICKING one persons stupid opinion and portraying it as national sentiment of the Greek Cypriots.

WHAT A PILE OF F####NG GARBAGE