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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 125.9.31.50 (talk) at 11:18, 22 July 2019 (please stop removing comments left in good faith.). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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PERSIAN PEOPLE ARE IRANIAN PEOPLE

Article is so convoluted it makes no sense. Article needs a complete overhaul, one hopefully that puts to rest the idea that "Persian" people aren't just plain old fashioned Iranians.

Norwegians don't call themselves 'Vikings' and Italians don't call themselves 'Romans'. I think I pretty much made my point.

Consider changing ===Related groups=== There are several ethnic groups and communities which are either ethnically or linguistically related to the Persian people, living predominantly in Iran, and also within Afghanistan, the Caucasus, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, Turkey, Iraq, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Oman, and the United Arab Emirates.<ref>{{cite web|year=2005|title=SociolinguistEssex X – 2005|publisher=[[Essex University]]|page=10|url=http://www.essex.ac.uk/langling/documents/slx/slx_x_programme.pdf}}</ref> to ===Related groups=== There are several ethnic groups and communities which are either ethnically or linguistically related to the Persian people, living predominantly in Iran, and also within Afghanistan, the Caucasus, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, Turkey, Iraq, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Oman, and the United Arab Emirates.<ref>{{cite web|year=2005|title=SociolinguistEssex X – 2005|publisher=[[University of Essex]]|page=10|url=http://www.essex.ac.uk/langling/documents/slx/slx_x_programme.pdf}}</ref>

Sorry, didn't work as intended. Consider changing the publisher parameter from Essex University to University of Essex

Picture dispute

This discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

@LouisAragon and Rye-96: I am calling out your callous, and outright unprofessional edits to the image gallery attached to this page, which for the most part, lack any scholarly merit (and perhaps stem from pedantic personal motivations). The removed image of course, is a 17th century fresco illustrating a Persian tavern-keeper; holding a flagon of wine, originally installed at the Abbasi hotel in Isfahan. Its the same image attached to the "Culture of Iran" page here on Wikipedia. Now unless you have any substantive reasons for removing this content, and by substantive allow me to emphasize on the phrase "scholarly", then speak your mind, or forever refrain from removing the image. Otherwise we may need to escalate this further. May I need to remind you that wikipedia is a neutral platform for the benefit of the public domain and not a cause for settling personal issues. Edit: @LouisAragon: you have went ahead and re-edited the image for the fourth time. Express your concerns here, instead of moving around my update, or standby for admin. You don't seem to be interested in good faith discussion. Edit II: 22:49, 8 August 2018 (EST)

@Mithraeum: I did undo you because, like I did mention in my edit, that was certainly not a picture of a “Persian woman”. Or at least not that we could prove it. Bear in mind that this article is about the ethnic group known as the Persian people, and whatever we are supposed to give as their heritage on this article is supposed to be about them, and not all of the people of a country that was once called Persia. Besides, the gallery already had four images, so I found that image to be unneeded. So, I was wondering, what explanation can you give us for this other than that I shouldn’t “remove images without citation” and “follow rules or face repercussions”, because I neither understand that nor this one:
From: Wikipedia <wiki@wikimedia.org>
Date: Wed, Aug 8, 2018 at 7:49 PM
Subject: Wikipedia email from user "Mithraeum"
To: Rye-96 <[redacted]>


DO NOT delete images without proper citation on a protected article EVER again! You understand?
I'll have ZERO tolerance for it.
--
This email was sent by user "Mithraeum" on the English Wikipedia to user "Rye-96". (...)
By the way, is a “citation” for removing an image given here in your earlier edit? Because I have yet to know about that.
—Rye-96 (talk) 17:40, 10 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@LouisAragon and Rye-96: This is precisely the point, you seem to carry your own convoluted notions of what " Persian ethnicity" should look like, which is not within the purview of this page. But let us recap how you got here: first you remove the image because it allegedly does not portray a Persian female, then you remove it again claiming it was "overpopulating" the gallery (all the while your buddy Ryan is adding more images to it) and now you claim it does not portray an ethnic Persian in the first place! This last one is the most peculiar point... I mean even if we're to give you the benefit of doubt, and consider you're merely under-educated on the topic or excessively pedantic, the issue with respect to ethnicity is so bizarre and out-of-place it makes one's head scratch?!!! My man, have you not ever met a Persian before!? Let us thank the divinity then that your personal senses do not dictate facts; otherwise half the Persian history would be removed with only few clicks! I digress...

The actual fresco dates back to the 17th century. The scene is still decorating the walls of Shah Abbasi Hotel in Isfahan along with other miniatures depicting dancing women and tavern-keepers. As much as you may hate to admit, wine, and women are as much part of Persian ethnicity as statues portraying men.

I am not responding to your "threats" none-sense, largely because we both know you vandalized my personal page and have been combative throughout. But allow me to say that when images are removed without explanation, expect other members to cite you the rules. In any event, I find this part of your discussion a red-herring and entirely unrelated to the subject: which involves you and friend removing an image you don't like, and failing to provide proper reasons for doing so. 14:36, 10 of August (EST)

Not sure where you pull the "re-edited the image for the fourth time" nonsense from. Rye-96 reverted you on one occassion,[1] I reverted you on two occassions.[2]-[3] And now admin Favonian as well.[4] You are being severely disruptive;
  • You threatened user:Rye-96 the very first time your incorrect edit was reverted.[5] It seems you also tried to threaten him off-wiki (see above)
  • The caption you added to the image, "Persian woman" was incorrect.[6] Now you suddenly state here that its a Persian tavern keeper?
  • You are edit-warring against numerous users on this page.[7] You were warned twice for that, by two separate users, but you instantly removed both messages from your talk page.[8]-[9]
  • You left a patronizing message on my user page[10]
  • You added your talk page comments on no-less than three occassions inside an old discussion at the top of this talk page. When I tried to fix it for you,[11] you reverted me and "threatened to contact admins".[12] I then left you a good faith message on your talk page, explaining "why" your comments were added on the wrong spot, but you removed it instantly.[13] After removing my message from your talk page, you went ahead and re-inserted your talk page comments inside old discussions located at the top of this talk page (accompanied by more unsubstantiated "admin threats").[14]
- LouisAragon (talk) 19:28, 10 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, and I noticed you made other WP:TENDENTIOUS edits in the recent past as well, such as here, where you added unsourced content. You seem to have major misconceptions about Wikipedia and its policies in general. Looking at the compelling evidence, I wonder whether you're actually here to build this encyclopedia according to the guidelines.
  • "I am not responding to your "threats" none-sense (...)"
Another big no-no. - LouisAragon (talk) 19:28, 10 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
He just removed the second warning issued by admin Black Kite as well: "Don't issue threats on my talk page". - LouisAragon (talk) 20:06, 10 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@LouisAragon and Rye-96: This isn't really going anywhere. You have shown little interest to actually come up with substantive reasons as to why the image should be removed, other than circling around the same misguided personal biases. Now you're citing an older edit on another page, involving a passage from Encylopedia Iranica that lacks proper citation. This isnt relevant to why the image here has been moved? What's your aim here? I am bumping this for third party opinion. The aim of the exercise here is to expand this page to include more accurate and less bias content. We aren't having a counselling session here. 16:00, 10 of August (EST)'

@Mithraeum: You add a random Safavid painting describing it as depicting a “Persian woman” and then accuse me of carrying my “own convoluted notions of what ‘Persian ethnicity’ should look like” and favoring men’s images over women’s? I don’t see how that would help you with anything here. I didn’t threaten, and I did leave an explanatory summary on removing that image, the same way you did so regarding your removal of an earlier image that I mentioned above. You were the one who then needed to defend their addition and you chose to threaten me instead. Reasons have been given and you have been reverted by multiple users. It’s just that somebody has “ZERO tolerance” for it.
—Rye-96 (talk) 21:53, 10 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Mithraeum, I'm going to leave this here for all to see: stop threatening, stop insulting, stop condescending. If you're wondering where we draw the line, it's sort of right behind you since you have crossed it a few times already--in fact you did so in your very first post here. One more thing: sign your messages on talk pages. It's not hard.

    And if you want a third opinion: if you want to argue for the inclusion of some image, first you need to prove that that image is what you say it is: a picture of a woman (and you don't count as a secondary source). Without that, there is nothing. Drmies (talk) 23:45, 10 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]


@LouisAragon and Rye-96: Its not a painting, its an image of a fresco in miniature style. Its a prominent late-Safavid piece and attached to the Culture of Iran page here on Wikipedia. It follows other familiar pieces like the one here. You've removed the image without explanation on multiple occasions and now wonder why I sent you that email? Precisely for this reason! I mean what do you expect when you vandalize pages? Recall, that I even changed the term from woman, to Persian Tavern Keeper to avoid any controversy, but you removed that later version as well! Goes to show how dedicated you've been to censoring content. Very clear personal motivation if you ask me. We have yet to hear a coherent reason for why this image is constantly being taken down, precisely because there are none! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mithraeum (talk • contribs)

Persian is synonym for Iranian -- Revision is needed

Historically Iran is known as PERSIA and from the 6th century until 1935 the official name of the country was Persia (Perse in French and Persien in German). So the adjective Persian in English all people who live in Persia (or Iran). So the first paragraph of the article which says The Persians are an Iranian ethnic group that make up over half the population of Iran is not completely true. This introduction should be revised and re-written. Please check out various encyclopaedias and dictionaries; they all have mentinoed PERSIAN is used for 'inhabitants of Persia' not just for those who are ethnically Persian who those who are Persian-speaker. we may change the title of the article to 'Persian-Speaking People".--Sarajoon2018 (talk) 16:27, 31 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Sarajoon2018: There are other ethnicities in Iran besides Persian people. There are also Persian people outside of Iran, as shown in this article. "Iranian" is used to cover Persian people as well as related ethnic groups, such as the Lurs. Ian.thomson (talk) 17:10, 31 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
They're not synonyms though. --HistoryofIran (talk) 18:45, 31 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Prof. Ehsan Yarshater, the most celebrated scholar in this field has already eplained this issue very well. Persia and Iran are synonym. The country was just renamed in 1935. Check out Prof. Yarshater article here. So I do not know why you are going to give a wrong impression that Persia is different than Iran. --Sarajoon2018 (talk) 19:59, 31 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Not gonna read anything from that blog. Iranian =/= Persian, it doesn't take much knowledge to know that. --HistoryofIran (talk) 03:34, 1 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It is not a 'blog'. It is an article in the academic magaine IRANIAN STUDIES and the author is Prof. Ehsan Yarshater who is the most celebrated scholar in the filed. Please try to be open to the historical facts and do not just your personal opinion. Thanks.--Sarajoon2018 (talk) 13:42, 2 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
he source you provided is not dealing with Persians or Iranians, it’s about the name of the country.---Wikaviani (talk) (contribs) 14:01, 2 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Iran => Demonym(s) => Iranian, Persian (historically). So it's not a synonym for Iranian anymore. Plus your suggestion could introduce new problems. There are already users and IP-users who try to remove Iranian and Persian terms from a considerable number of articles because they have no idea about these terms or they think ethnolinguistic terms like Iranian and Persian are equal to Iran and Persia. They even don't try to read this article or Iranian peoples. Also your concern is explained here: Persian_people#History_of_usage --Wario-Man (talk) 08:19, 1 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Sarajoon2018: This article is about the Persian ethno-linguistic group, and not the inhabitants of "Persia" as an exonym for "Iran". I think that's very clear. It's like how every inhabitant of Germany is "German" by nationality, but only 80% of Germany's population are ethnically German. The Persians, as an ethnic group, do make up only some half of Iran's population, and this is what the listed sources do confirm.
—Rye-96 (talk) 16:46, 1 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Re Germany - that is nonsense on two fronts: "every inhabitant of Germany is "German" by nationality" - NO, 10/80 million do not have nationality, and "only 80% of Germany's population are ethnically German" - NO, c. 20% of the citizens have some "immigrant" background, but the majority of these are precisely "ethnic Germans" coming from further east. Germany does recognise internal non-ethnic-German minorities, but these are tiny - well under a million. On the wider point, the article should deal with the different meanings "Persian people" can have, even if the main coverage deals with just one of the meanings of the term. Johnbod (talk) 23:08, 1 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Persian=/=Iranian in an ethnolinguistic meaning. Persian and Iranian can be interpreted as being synonyms in a sense of citizenship. for example, an Algerian immigrant in France can abandon his Algerian citizenship and take the French one, this makes him a French citizen but not an ethnic French. So, when Iran was called Persia, citizens of Persia could be called Iranians (As Persia and Iran are synonyms), but only in regard of their citizenships. Best regards.---Wikaviani (talk) (contribs) 02:13, 2 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think this article lacks info about other meanings of "Persian". Mentioned both historical and modern usages, plus other terms like Tajik. However those info could be expanded to include more details. For instance, do you guys think Ajam could be mentioned on this article or not? Or ethnic groups like Ajam of Bahrain and Ajam of Iraq? --Wario-Man (talk) 14:32, 2 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I mean.. I think the other commentators did notice what I meant by "every inhabitant of Germany", Johnbod. Don't think those explanations were necessary. But yeah, this was a good addition and I thank you for that. The article did actually mention the other historical usages of the term. It only had yet to do so in the lede. I, too, think the Achomi (Ajam) should be mentioned within this article, Wario-Man.
—Rye-96 (talk) 23:22, 7 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 15 July 2019

Persian people → Persians – "Persians" redirects here. other ethnicity articles follow this formula "ethnic name+s", so this one should not be different. persian is not a meta ethnicity, bunch of sub ethnic groups or nationality and using people or peoples is wrong in this case. GGBarBar (talk) 09:15, 15 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • Please do not remove comments added to this discussion in good faith, particularly since you initiated it, and also please consider learning the other rules of move discussions, such as not supporting your own request. 125.9.31.50 (talk) 11:13, 22 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • I request help from anyone else monitoring this discussions s GGBarBar continues to remove my comments. Note that this is also not a clear primary topic by page views: [15]. Although this does not address the usage of "Persians" specifically. GGBarBar, I will escalate this if you continue to remove comments added in good faith. Please read WP:Talk and stop violating talk page guidelines. 125.9.31.50 (talk) 11:18, 22 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
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