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Yolo tag team titles

Sooo.... how will we handle the YOLO County tag team titles? Otis and Tucker have the "titles" in their C&A section, there is even an article for the title. WWE Yolo County Tag Team Championship. For me, I would remove the entire thing, looks more like a joke. It's not even sure if WWE will follow the joke or storyline. It's like the "Champion of Liechtenstein" or ""Mexican Heavyweight Champion". --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 11:00, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

Personal note. I'm scared of reddit users. This is the kind of thing they love and, if we remove it, they will start to complain. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 11:20, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
As far as I can tell there is no reason for it. They were not announced on air as champions and there appears to be no recognition. If kept, it should be treated more like FTW or Million Dollar championships. - Galatz גאליץשיחה Talk 12:07, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
" presumably through one of their connections with a minor local promotion in Yolo County, California. " in the lede is scary. Wikipedia should not presume anything. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 12:22, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
No recognition? WWE did an official "new champions with their belts" photo shoot. MPJ-DK (talk) 12:47, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
However... their WWE profile is empty. For me, it's just a joke, like Flair's KFC royal rumble win, a Mexican Heavyweight title or Gargano's Liechtenstein title. I created the AfD for the titles. About the C&A section.... --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 12:53, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
"To me" is like the poster child start to original Research. Lack of WWE updates do not prove anything. Maybe the WWE were as surprised as we were that it was not a unification match as originally scheduled. You don't know that for a fact MPJ-DK (talk) 15:47, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

They're cardboard belts. Seriously, this is an obvious joke angle. oknazevad (talk) 12:56, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

biodegradable and environmental, was the wooden belt a joke? MPJ-DK (talk) 13:01, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
We all have seen title represented by other thing than belts. The Queen of FCW (a crown), the FCW 15 championship (medal), Progress title ("large staff with an eagle head piece")... but i'm asking if the title is a one night joke or it's gonna be part of WWE programing. Like Lieschstein or mexican heavyweight titles. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 13:20, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
The hemo and wood belt was a gimmick, and reverted as soon as he lost. This I see as WWE mocking low-budget indies. But all of that doesn't really matter, because the storyline is a day old and we don't need to jump into a whole article for something like this. WP:TOOSOON applies. oknazevad (talk) 13:24, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
Yeah I do not understand why this was ever added to Wikipedia. As Matt Hardy would say, "delete delete delete". We also need to remove it from their C&A sections. StaticVapor message me! 13:33, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
  • it has a more credible introduction than the IC belt, this was not a "tournament in Rio" after all, as for "it is a joke" i am thinking we will need a very reliable source on that or it would be Original Research to.interpret this as a joke. Oh and it was won as legitimately as any other championship, the outcome of a predetermined match. MPJ-DK (talk) 14:52, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
    • That might be so, but it was never announced to be a title match and they were not announced as having won the titles after the match. So is it really more legit? The Greatest Royal Rumble championship belt had more than that yet its article got deleted. - Galatz גאליץשיחה Talk 14:59, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
  • Your point is moot, the WWE themselves posted a video of the champions with their belts afterward. And who decides when a wwe championship is real? WWE, just like they did with the Million $ Championship, or did someone think DiBiase just made that up? All.championships are "hoaxes" in the way wrestling is not a competitive sport where you actually win. I see this a material discrimination against cardboard. MPJ-DK (talk) 15:07, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
I think your argument is "ab absurdo". The argument is "wrestling is fake/scripted, so let's include every single title". --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 15:28, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
I never said that, I said claiming "it is fake" as an argument against this is not valid. I did not state here that this was a reason to not delete, just that it was not a reason tobdelete. Same words, differnt order, opposite meaning. So please do not put words in my mouth. Thanks. MPJ-DK (talk) 15:41, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
  • We have zero evidence of long-term notability. It's been two days. And, unlike the 24/7 title, the belts are cardboard, not the typical leather-and-metal that indicates it's sticking around. It doesn't deserve an article yet, if ever. There's WP:NODEADLINE. We can wait to see. oknazevad (talk) 15:09, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
Se have zero evidence that it won't just because it isn't made with tye typical materials. Don't be sobclose minded, it may be a cost cutting measure, we don't know that. MPJ-DK (talk) 15:41, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
  • Here's the question - Does it meet WP:GNG? Probably. Is it something better covered in another article? Those are the only two questions on if there should be an article on the belt. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 15:49, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
    • Technically the GNG question is the only one that matters, which you said "probably ", so i suggest a bold strategy, let us see how it plays out.MPJ-DK (talk) 16:01, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
      • No it's not the only question that matters. There are plenty of things that are better covered within another article.
      • Now, does it meet GNG? Don't know. The only non-primary source that would be even mentioning this is WP:ROUTINE coverage by pro-wrestling-specific websites; as it is we give too much importance to that sort of routine coverage in determining notability. As for the "better covered in another article" question, the only place i can see it being mentioned is Heavy Machinery's article as part of the storyline. No, we don't know if it's just for this one storyline. But we also don't know that it is not. Any conclusion one way or the other is equally speculative and therefore inappropriate to endorse, which is exactly what having a separate article does. The assumption is unfounded, premature, and based on synthesizing separate facts to draw a conclusion. There is no harm in holding off, and waiting to see what develops. There is no rush, there is no deadline, and Wikipedia is an encyclopdia, not a newspaper. oknazevad (talk) 16:10, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
        • I will let Lee Vilensk answer that one since he is the only one making a statement on if the subject meets GNG, don't want to speak on his behalf of why he said "probay"MPJ-DK (talk) 16:23, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
          • I think it most likely meets GNG. I'm sure if I searched enough, I'd be able to find plenty of RS that comment on the this; which is why I said probably. The issues are regarding WP:1E and if this should be commented on elsewhere. It is potentially WP:TOOSOON for an article, as it could potentially be only one event, however, as an article already exists, deleting it would mean that any new title that is created should only have an article after a certain period of time. Titles only held by one person (or only known by one user) should be in that person's page until a WP:SPLIT. I have no problems with an article here, and if it's turned into a single event, redirect and place information into another article. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 16:40, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
Since we are slinging OR here i got my own take on it. The WWE is paying homage to the territory days with this championship. Territories would often bring in an outside, "billed as champion upon arrival " have them lose to a local guy and bingo, championship without holding a tournament. Also wwe is concerned about the earth so the belts are recyclable, if someone throws it off a bridge (has happened before) it will not harm the environment. Also i applaud WWE for giving fans a low cost option to have a replica championship belt to show off their fandom. So not a hoax or a joke. MPJ-DK (talk) 16:18, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
The only part of that that I can even remotely agree with is the first part. The rest of it is such a stretch that one would have to be more flexible than one can even get doing DDP Yoga. Like, it seems like you are joking yourself. Frankly, I can't take you seriously on this. oknazevad (talk) 16:23, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
Just putting other unsoruced arguments out there so that "it is a joke" does stand alone in people putting their own interpretations on in and use is as an argument for/against something. And how you chose to take it is cool with me, i don't judge. Am i being facetious? Serious? Trying to show what is and is not a deletion argument etc.? I may not even know myself any more ;-) MPJ-DK (talk) 16:37, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
It has enough sources to meet GNG, however as does basically every championship title change. Thats why we have WP:FORK. Could everything be summed up in 2 sentences within another page, absolutely. Therefore, it shouldn't have its own page. The Million Dollar Championship was active for 4 years. So far this had 1 night. Its impossible right now to know what will happen, which is why too soon applies here. - Galatz גאליץשיחה Talk 17:52, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
Nothing in that link has to do with this discussion, i am sure you meant content fork, not off Wikipedia copying. MPJ-DK (talk) 18:47, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
Yeah, WP:CFORK. It can be included in another article, it does not warrant its own. At least night at this point. - Galatz גאליץשיחה Talk 18:51, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

Did you read it? Very first line defines in at A content fork is the creation of multiple separate articles (or passages within articles) all treating the same subject. So that is not actually what is happening here, there no content that it was split off from, it did not fork off something. So again not actually a valid argument in this case. Your argument could apply to any championship list. /the more you know.MPJ-DK (talk) 19:02, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

This seems like a TNA World Beer Drinking Championship situation to me, but the only thing we can do right now is wait. This discussion isn't going to get very far until SmackDown next week. JTP (talk • contribs) 22:31, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
I think too it's best to wait till the next episodes. Meltzer said on his radio the idea behind this angles is likely again to make wrestling outside WWE look like a joke (I think this is also obvious). We will see if they run further with the angle so that it may become relevant, it's unlikely this will become an actual title though. --Casra (talk) 17:13, 15 June 2019 (UTC)

How to join

Can someone please tell me how to join this wiki project ? TheWWEThunderbolt (talk) 06:49, 17 June 2019 (UTC)

Read here. --JDC808 ♫ 07:05, 17 June 2019 (UTC)

Thoughts on tag team notability

Recently, I AFDed The Hype Bros which didn't result in anything. I was wondering we should come up with a threshold for single pages of tag teams? I think this is crucial, not only for knowing which ones to keep/delete, but also to be able to create new ones like The Boss 'n' Hug Connection, Nia Jax and Tamina, Awesome Truth, 3MB, Heath Slater and Rhyno, Miz and Mizdow and so on. This came to my attention when I saw the existence of Vince's Devils. THE NEW ImmortalWizard(chat) 14:36, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

We started working on a PW specific notability guideline at one point but not sure what happened to it, but I think its worth finalizing. I think it was saved on MPJ-DK's sandbox - Galatz גאליץשיחה Talk 14:51, 13 March 2019 (UTC)
Indeed. This needs clarification. Actually, a no consensus result is probably the right result in this case. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 16:19, 13 March 2019 (UTC)
I believe it was at User:MPJ-DK/Notability (professional wrestling). This should definitely be a priority. JTP (talk • contribs) 14:27, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
Yeah I agree. We should have one for tag teams, singles wrestlers, promotions, etc. It is all going to overall go by the WP: GNG, but we can have other criteria that would indicate notability. I know some sports articles, all they have to do is play one game in the major leagues and then they are notable. Obviously we probably should not make it that easy, but championships or tenure with major promotions could indicate notability with our own criteria. StaticVapor message me! 21:09, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
THere you go, undeleted so that you guys don't have to start from scratch. I am happy to host this while you work through this, or put in it draft space - your call. MPJ-DK (talk) 03:57, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

The wrestling section needs different notability rules than the rest of the site for a few reasons:

- Wrestling has always gotten little coverage. Not because people didn't care but because places didn't want to cover it due to it being fake.

- Wrestling up until 1980 was regional. This limited how much coverage there was, while the NFL, MLB and other sports didn't have that issue. Coverage is not a good way to determine notability. The Apter mags were also biased towards the Northeast since they were from the Northeast, while places like Continental didn't want Apter reporters there since they were only running Alabama.

- Places like Japan and Mexico still have a very undeveloped internet. One is due to poverty and the other due to people preferring to use their phones. The chances of either of those situations changing anytime soon is low, so even if results were listed in newspapers and stuff, it's going to be a long time, if ever before they get online. The language barrier also makes it very hard for people like myself to find information.

- There's little footage prior to 1980. Not because people weren't watching wrestling, they definitely were. But the VCR wasn't invented yet and due to the other reasons I listed above, it got less coverage.

- Many people have compiled regional results. However, they don't have official websites/publications so therefore they don't meet notability guidelines for sources and it can't be used. So someone like a Matt Farmer who has done a lot of work would have to type up the results then send them to a source like Dave Meltzer to be posted for it to be recognized, which probably won't happen.

KatoKungLee (talk) 15:34, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

  • As as the most prolific editor of Mexican articles and a total non-speaker of Spanish I can say that he language barrier also makes it very hard for people like myself to find information. has not been a barrier, nor should it be a reason to lower the notabiliy criteria. MPJ-DK (talk) 16:02, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Thoughts on current notability draft

Thank you MPJ-DK for restoring. Here are some thoughts I have right now based on where things currently are.

  1. The nutshell says A professional wrestler is presumed to be notable if the person has worked for a major professional wrestling promotion on a regular basis or won a significant championship (bolding added by me) however I do not see where this championship is listed, except for groups. How long do they need to hold the championship, since someone like Nicolas held a championship but I do not believe should have his own page. Perhaps holding for over 100 days for individuals as well? 3 months seems to be a rarity in reigns these days.
  2. User:MPJ-DK/Notability_(professional_wrestling)#Professional_wrestlers asks the note of how long they appear full time to be notable. I would say 6 months should suffice. WP:NBASE only requires you to play one game for an MLB team to be notable, so I think this is more than reasonable.
  3. User:MPJ-DK/Notability_(professional_wrestling)#Post_territory_days_(1990s-present) I propose we add NXT UK to NXT or clarify and state any developmental brand, to make it apply once additional NXTs open. In addition we have the note about what makes them notable. I would say we include holding a belt for the 90 days I mentioned above, or appeared on 2 network specials. Street Profits have been on many weekly episodes but consistently keep getting deleted, so I think this criteria makes sense.
  4. I am not very familiar with the European wrestling scene so not sure I can add anything to that discussion, but I am sure someone here is more familiar. Similarly I notice no Canadian promotions on the list, are there none that should qualify? *Treker I believe you typically edit the Canadian ones and could perhaps answer more on this, and I feel like you might be from Europe, right?
  5. User:MPJ-DK/Notability_(professional_wrestling)#Professional_wrestling_officials_etc. is a bit confusing to me. Are we saying they need to meet the same criteria as the wrestlers? What exactly makes a referee notable? What about a ring announcer? Do they just need to meet GNG?
  6. User:MPJ-DK/Notability_(professional_wrestling)#Groups I believe criteria for a group to be notable it must be over 1 year. There consistent are teams thrown together for some purpose but they quickly die. 1 year does make it pretty substantial. For example, Owen Hart and Yokozuna were together for almost 6 months, and held the championship twice for a total of 175 days. Based on my suggestions, they do not meet the criteria for length as a team but do for length of a reign, does everyone agree they are notable?
  7. In User:MPJ-DK/Notability_(professional_wrestling)#Events,_tournaments I think we need to clarify what criteria a supercard needs to meet to be considered. This is part of what often led to the debate on WWE_Global_Warning. It was an event, held in a stadium of over 50,000 people, and was released on VHS/DVD. Based on the criteria here, I do not know how many of the pre pay-per-view events like Showdown at Shea meet the criteria and Global Warning doesn't.
  8. For User:MPJ-DK/Notability_(professional_wrestling)#Matches,_rivalries_and_incidents I suggest we include Fingerpoke of Doom and/or Mass Transit incident (professional wrestling) to the list. It makes it less WWE focused and shows incidents in addition to just matches.
  9. When referencing reliable sources we should probably also include a link to WP:PW/RS for reference, although not all inclusive, it gives a good starting point.

I will try and do a more detailed read later, but thats my current thoughts. Anyone else? - Galatz גאליץשיחה Talk 16:37, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

Thank you for pining me Galatz. Yes I am indeed from Europe, Sweden to be exact, but the most wrestling I'm familiar with is British/Irish and Canadian. I would say personally that I feel that if a Canadian wrestler has hold a title from Stampede Wrestling they really should be assumed to be notable. Even just working in Stampede should most likely grant you enough coverage for notability in most cases. I would also say that coverage from SLAM! Wrestling is a great indicator that a wrestler was noteworthy. British wrestling is a little harder, hopefully someone from the erea can shime in more.★Trekker (talk) 16:48, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

One other though I forgot to mention. In terms of when to break out a a championship article, I think we need to look at WP:SPLIT. I believe unless it is over 50-60k range, there is no reason to break out. I am just not sure if this belongs here or in style guide (which already says to break out the list if it has 10 entries) but it cannot hurt to mention them in both, as long as they are worded consistently. - Galatz גאליץשיחה Talk 17:07, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

My thoughts on some of your points:

1 - 100 Days of holding a title is too much. The majority of wrestlers would not meet this criteria, especially since a lot title histories are incomplete.

2 - If one day is good enough for any of the sports leagues, one match should be enough for wrestling as well. But there's discrimination towards wrestling and it's fans and the non-fan editors wouldn't allow it. May have to come down to holding x titles, wrestling for x years or something else for the territory days.

4 - We are sadly going to see almost no European wrestling articles on here ever for anyone before the mid-80's. The only people who could ever meet the criteria were super stars like Jackie Pallo, Big Daddy or people who had long careers in the US. Even tons of WOS wrestlers who had pretty good careers there will be eaten alive by the non-wrestling editors on here. Sourcing on that is next to impossible, since only we really only have WOS tapes and every other site will end up deemed a "personal site" due to the lack of footage. I see similar fates for Canadian wrestlers who never bothered in the US. Had Vince not bought Stampede, it wouldn't have gotten the coverage it got here. Larry Kasaboski ran a Canadian promotion for 30 years and I'd be surprised if even Dave Meltzer knew who he was, since he was regional and no footage exists. But obviously, he was doing something right.

5 - Refs would have to be super specific situations, mostly revolving around people who mainstayed in one promotion for decades or wrestled in matches. Announcers would probably meet similar fates.

As we talked about elsewhere in the thread, wrestling was all local prior to WWF in 1986 and since it wasn't in a national league like other sports, what happened in the middle of Canada wasn't really important to the people in Memphis. And since every territory minus Memphis was dead by 1992 and didn't keep their footage, we really only have various kayfabe mags and whatever newspapers may have covered, but someone would have to look through those and either write their own book or get Dave to publish them. I do have some fan newsletters sitting around from the 70's which would be sources and were the 70's kayfabe version of the Wrestling Observer, but the non-wrestling fan editors would never allow them. KatoKungLee (talk) 02:47, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

Man, all your points are so true and sad. I wish there was a way to solve this somehow.★Trekker (talk) 18:14, 19 March 2019 (UTC)
  • KatoKungLee names? Maybe someone else knows of sources. i have a book on Cnafians, maybe there is something there. MPJ-DK (talk) 20:18, 19 March 2019 (UTC)
    • I have tons of old magazines from the 90s if anyone needs something specific from those I can try and check too - Galatz גאליץ שיחה Talk 13:08, 20 March 2019 (UTC)
      • User:Galatz and MPJ-DK, MPJ - I didn't understand your question. I also have tons of old programs(I have all kinds of programs from 90's Japanese companies but I do not know how to cite them), and a huge collection of mags from the 60's-80's along with fan newsletters. I don't even know how we could go about sourcing fan newsletters though because they were regional and the people involved are long gone, but they had all kinds of results that I've never seen elsewhere since there was only maybe one national wrestling magazine in the 60's.

American promotions

I moved the page to Wikipedia:WikiProject Professional wrestling/Notability where I imagine it will ultimately live. I tagged it as under construction and not yet ready. I also set up some redirects to it so we can short hand refer to it once finalized. Unfortunately WP:PWN and WP:NPW are both already taken. - Galatz גאליץשיחה Talk 15:14, 20 March 2019 (UTC)

I made all of the changes mentioned above that seemed to have no objection, either raised by me or others. I also made a few other changes to formatting/wording. Please feel free to review and revert any you disagree with. Anything I believe is still open I have underlined to make it easier to find for anyone who doesnt have time to do a detailed review. - Galatz גאליץשיחה Talk 16:16, 20 March 2019 (UTC)
@STATicVapor: Thanks for adding to the list of promotions. It brought a couple thoughts in my head. First, for MLW we should specify that their original run does not qualify, only their relaunch with the BeIN contract. Similarly does wrestling for Impact still make someone notable? I would be ok saying TNA from May 2004 (move off PPV shows) until March 2017 (change from TNA to Impact). At this point I believe being signed to AEW does not make someone notable since they have not put on a show. I suggest we table them until later. - Galatz גאליץשיחה Talk 17:45, 20 March 2019 (UTC)
No problem! I momentarily forgot that they had that original run 2002-2004. We might also have to specify for Ring of Honor, that it would have to be after 2007 (first PPV) or 2009 (first TV deal). However, if they were drawing close to 1000+ to their shows before then, I would support a earlier date. On Impact, I agree on there possibly being a cut off. When they got kicked off Spike, through all the GFW problems they were struggling to give away free tickets. Now, they have turned their business around recently, so I think we should consider 10/2018 or 1/2019 as a new start date for notability. StaticVapor message me! 21:52, 20 March 2019 (UTC)
Question - if Impact Wrestling (after the name change) does not make someone notable Galatz, how would MLW qualify? They are both currently on networks with limited viewership - I don't know the difference between the "BeIN" network and wherever IW is at right now? An option to determine the criteria is to rank all current US promotions from "most notable" to "least" and figure out where the cut off line is. And be sure that we have an appropriate line drawn for where just working for the company for x period of time makes you presumably notable. MPJ-DK (talk) 22:28, 20 March 2019 (UTC)
Its a tricky question without really a great answer. TNA during its hay-days had over a million views a week and were covered by a lot of sources. Ever since the name change their ratings have plummeted and you really do not see them being covered by major sources much at all. According to Dave Meltzer their ratings right now are about 10,000 per week with another 10,000 on Twitch, so about 20,000 people are watching it. MLW Fushion has roughly 3 times that many views on YouTube plus whatever they get on TV (no clue what that number is). Based on personal experience I just see MLW covered more now than TNA. Its not an exact science but thats why I said what I did. I welcome other opinions though - Galatz גאליץשיחה Talk 01:24, 21 March 2019 (UTC)
BeIN has larger reach than Pursuit Channel. BeIN is on the level of El Rey Network (Lucha Underground) and AXS TV (NJPW and Women of Wrestling in America). Outside of television deals we should take the amount of people they draw to their shows into consideration. As well as how much they are covered in reliable sources. I'll do a little detailing here. This is going to be tricky, because all these promotions had their high and low points.StaticVapor message me! 02:52, 21 March 2019 (UTC)
Top tier

WWE 1990–2019, followed by WCW 1990-2001 is probably top tier (less time needed there to satisfy the criteria). After that it would be TNA during their time on national television on major stations (Fox Sports Net and Spike) so that would be 2004–2014. TNA drew less and had lower viewership than WCW, but we're a solid number two behind WWE from 2004/5–2014.

Number two

Following that is where it is not clear as day. ROH only had a network deals (2007–2011 and 2015) and even then, HDNet and Destination America have about the same reach as Pop TV (showed Impact after Spike deal) and BeIN Sports (MLW). Now ROH runs in syndication only in certain markets on FOX or CBS (the non-cable free channels), so viewership data is not available. ROH was the number three promotion for many years and then coinciding with the fall of TNA/Impact, they became the second largest promotion. This is sourced in the Ring of Honor article. They draw about 2000 to a record 6000 for their big shows, with the touring shows doing around 1000. My question is when does the notability start for them? 2015–2019 is probably the highest profile time in their existence, but they were well known as the number 3 promotion from 2005–201x.

After that...

Three is where is gets fishy Impact has a wide international reach, so even though they are not as big in US now, I do not think we need to do the cut-off on them. See List of Impact Wrestling programming for international deals. Then there is MLW (2018-2019). They are the only other promotion with a national deal if you don't count NJPW and Lucha Underground. They fight for third with Impact due to higher attendances. Impact draws about 1000-1500 for PPVs now, usually a lot less than that for television tapings. However, this is a very recent thing where business is picking up for them. While since mid 2018 MLW has been drawing 1000-2100 for their monthly supercards/television tapings.

Above the indies

So all four currently have a significant precense as American promotions. Impact and MLW slightly less than ROH. After that would be Lucha Underground, Women of Wrestling and Ring Warriors due to their television deals. All three of those are not year round promotions though. All three are kind of television shows, rather then full-time promotions. National Wrestling Alliance (late 2018-2019) is the only other one besides (WWE, ROH, MLW, Impact) that comes close to 1000 for their supercards in 2018–2019. While LU, WOW and Ring Warriors do their television tapings in small buildings.

Retrospect

Somewhere in there is where Extreme Championship Wrestling lies. Very notable, but they didn't draw huge crowds and were only seen through tape trading for most of their existence. Only 1999–2001 they were on a major network, but in a awful time slot. StaticVapor message me! 02:41, 21 March 2019 (UTC)
Also we should try to do subsections everytime we talk about a different part of the notability essay. It was hard to find a place to jump into the conversation when I first saw this lol. StaticVapor message me! 02:52, 21 March 2019 (UTC)

ECW is very hard for me to judge. I discovered them late night NY TV probably in 94/95 time frame and used to wait up until 3am (I think that was when it ended) every Saturday night/Sunday morning to watch. So when they invaded Raw in 1997 I had no idea others didn't know about them. But based on how those old days are still discussed and talked about I think the small reach in the early days shouldn't exclude them from being considered a top tier during those times. At the least if WCW/WWF are tied for #1, ECW is a stand alone #2.
This may be based on my preference of websites/podcasts so others may have different views but here is how I see current products reviewed.
  1. WWE is a clear #1.
  2. ROH and MLW seem to be #2 in coverage, ROH most likely has many more viewers, but their coverage in RS seems to match MLW. AEW probably surpasses them in coverage but they have never put on a show, so being signed by them does not help with notability. NJPW is in this same category, but they are a Japanese promotion that has a US TV deal.
  3. Impact and Lucha Underground get some coverage, but only when something big happens. On a week to week basis they don't appear much. NWA is probably in the same category as here, but they only have 1 full time wrestler signed, and they work with others to put on their shows, so not sure just being signed with them helps at all with notability at this points.
  4. Other than their TV deals I cannot say I have heard anyone ever mention Women of Wrestling or Ring Warriors.
Again this is my own experience, so if anyone disagrees feel free to jump in. - Galatz גאליץשיחה Talk 11:58, 21 March 2019 (UTC)
It's hard to categorically slot promotions from different eras, as the media landscape is entirely different. ECW worked in an entirely different time period than modern promotions, where the number of available outlets, both in digital cable channels and in internet streaming has made a promotion far more available that ECW ever was back in the 90s. (Not to mention DVRs making something like the Monday Night Wars impossible to truly replicate.)
Plus, the fact is whether or not a promotion does have a TV show actually has nothing to do with notability. Notability is about third-party coverage of something. AEW is definitely notable despite not even having a show yet, because so much has been written about it.
Impact, for all it's regression is still written about enough to be undoubtedly notable. It's just now at what I call "national indy" level – that is promotions that do tour outside a small region, but only in smaller buildings, and have pre-taped television shows that air on semi-obscure channels. Impact, MLW and, arguably, ROH fall into that category, though ROH is fairly big nowadays (though the Elite leaving has definitely hurt them). Those promotions are somewhat difficult to categorize, as they're more notable to fans than the general audience, but specialist coverage does tend to cover them more fully, so there's sufficient coverage to meet the GNG likely.
But also remember that standard results reporting falls under the "routine coverage" aspect of the GNG. Just as a capsule paragraph on last night's games in the sports section of the local newspaper doesn't establish notability as it is a standard part of the paper (and probably just taken from a wire service), a Wrestling website, even one like PW Torch or Meltzer, just listing the results of an indy card does not establish notability for that card, as they routinely list those (and many of them are reader-submitted, so likely don't qualify as reliable, anyway). oknazevad (talk) 11:56, 21 March 2019 (UTC)
I understand your AEW point, but my only issue with that is our criteria we have been building deals with appearing on a regular basis for a company, not just being signed by them. If they have yet to put on a show, they can't meet the criteria spelled out right now. Unless you are proposing over-hauling that, adding AEW to the list wont help them fulfill the criteria. It more so falls into the exception criteria that needs to meet GNG. - Galatz גאליץשיחה Talk 12:03, 21 March 2019 (UTC)
Yes I agree on ECW, the amount of coverage it has received since it's closure is staggering. User:Galatz you hit the nail on the head when it comes to current amount of coverage in reliable sources. WWE–ROH–MLW–Impact–LU–etc. Also AEW is clearly gonna slot itself above Ring of Honor really soon, they have already sold out 1 (technically 2) 10,000+ arenas. So it wouldn't be very long before AEW ends up on our list, but now now. It seems like it would be this way.
1) is WWE and WCW.
2) is TNA (2004–2014) and ECW (1994–2001), maybe ROH (2015–2018) due to the popularity peak with The Elite.
3) Then ROH (undetermined year range) and MLW (2018–2019), Impact (2014–2019) and maybe Lucha Underground (but they are technically AAA right?). As for after that maybe being a long term champion or spending many years in WOW, NWA, or even the big indies such as Combat Zone Wrestling, Evolve Wrestling, Pro Wrestling Guerilla and the formerly popular Chikara and Dragon Gate USA would be a fourth tier. These promotions are covered pretty significantly in reliable sources (especially PWG, Evolve and CZW). StaticVapor message me! 01:33, 22 March 2019 (UTC)

Nwa territories

User:Galatz - I do not agree with only 3 of the NWA territories being marked as notable. You really can't have a rule on notability for territories unless they only existed for a few months because they were all restricted to various regions and the regions were not fair. The WWWF had 3 of the top media markets in the country while people like Ron Wright were doing great business in the hills of Tenessee, where they didn't even have TV, yet alone anything else. Places like Omaha and Columbus were arguably the top territory at various parts in time. And some outlaw promotions like Gunkel's Georgia are really important to the story of territory wrestling yet would also not fit. Just because we don't have great information online about these places or videos doesn't mean they weren't noteable. Places like Florida aren't on the list, yet if it wasn't for Florida, JCP and Dusty would have never been what they ended up being. Please Please Pleaseeeee do not do this. KatoKungLee (talk) 22:35, 20 March 2019 (UTC)

Territory days are not my specialty. I have watched from the time I was 3, but I know much more from 1992 on, so I left that as it was - Galatz גאליץשיחה Talk 01:27, 21 March 2019 (UTC)

Europe

The notability draft currently lists two European promotions (Joint Promotions and World of Sport). I should mention that this is a bit confusing as Joint promotions ran events including the World of Sport shows on ITV in the 70s. The WOS listed is the article for the 2018 reboot.

I would ask if the reboot could be added in the post 1990 list. Someone like Justin Sysum is probably due facto notable anyway for his body of work (he also played Hawkeye on Disney tours) but I would suggest anyone doing significant things on this show would be notable.

Otherwise, the only other places I could think of to be notable would be potentially FWA, PCW, ICW (Scotland) or PROGRESS. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 13:15, 21 March 2019 (UTC)

RESLO and CWA Austria in its various forms also definitely had TV through the 90's. KatoKungLee (talk) 16:15, 21 March 2019 (UTC)
Any ideas what networks? Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 16:32, 21 March 2019 (UTC)
Yeah I saw that about WOS, if no one else was "WOS" except Joint Promotions then we can take them off. I do not know anything much of European promotions pre-2010 to give much an opinion. I do know top promotions right now are Progress, Revolution Pro Wrestling and Insane Championship Wrestling, but those would be in the same tier as (ROH/MLW/Impact 2014–2019) not WWE/WCW or TNA/ECW. User:Lee Vilenski if FWA and PCW draw as much fans as those promotions I don't have a problem including them. I just always see Progress and RevPro covered in reliable sources, with some mentions of ICW. There easily could be stuff I have missed though. StaticVapor message me! 02:00, 22 March 2019 (UTC)
FWA would probably be the more notable promotion - https://www.cagematch.net/?id=8&nr=38&page=4 but - due to being the only big company in the UK at that time (outside of all star, but that's for a different reason.) Not sure appearing there loads is a good indicator of notability of a wrestler themselves though. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 07:05, 22 March 2019 (UTC)

User:Lee Vilenski - If you go on youtube, they have some footage with CWA being on Eurosport. — Preceding unsigned comment added by KatoKungLee (talk • contribs) 15:04, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

I don't think we could source to that. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 16:22, 24 March 2019 (UTC)
I do remember seeing them on EuroSport along wih British wrestling (Finlay, Johny Saint etc.). CWA had europe wide coverage. MPJ-DK (talk) 16:43, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

Open Items

Here is a listing of all the items currently underlined which means we need additional discussion on. This by no way means these are the only items still open to discussions, just ones we still definitely need to discuss. I will try break each into its own bullet and sign individually to make conversations easiest to follow. I ask others to follow the same so we can keep each thought easy to follow. - Galatz גאליץשיחה Talk 14:30, 27 March 2019 (UTC)

Length of service
Championship lineage length
NXT Length
  • What is significant for NXT
    • My comment is to include they appear on 2 Network Specials. Those are usually reserved for their notable performers, and if they are included twice, I think thats a good sing of notability. - Galatz גאליץשיחה Talk 14:30, 27 March 2019 (UTC)
      • I'm ok with this. 2 seems like the sweet spot. I'd make the argument that outside PPVs (Such as TNA's below) should work similarly. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 14:51, 27 March 2019 (UTC)
        • People like Kona Reeves, Riddick Moss and Otis Dozovic would not meet this criteria despite being in the promotion for over a year. TV Appearances would be much better, especially since NXT Takeover's traditionally only have 4-6 matches due to time constraints.KatoKungLee (talk) 14:56, 27 March 2019 (UTC)
          • Its not the only criteria and not meeting it doesn't mean it gets deleted. There are several jobbers who have had 4 matches on NXT TV but are not notable. Angelo Dawkins and Montez Ford have been deleted countless times but have has probably dozens of matches. - Galatz גאליץשיחה Talk 15:26, 27 March 2019 (UTC)
            • 2 network specials sounds good. Would this also include Worlds Collide, Mae Young Classic and Cruiserweight classic? I think it should, all three recieved significant coverage during and after their events. We honestly should give more weight to time spent on NXT television, it is broadcast on tv in a lot of countries outside of the US. StaticVapor message me! 03:59, 28 March 2019 (UTC)
Secondary promotions?
  • When do we include TNA/Impact
    • During the asylum years I would not say they are notable, so starting with their move to cable TV. As for today I would again say they are not significantly covered, and my opinion it should be cut off once they went through the rename to Impact then GFW then back to Impact. If not at that point, then end of 2018 when they went off Pop should definitely be. - Galatz גאליץשיחה Talk 14:30, 27 March 2019 (UTC)
      • Might well depend again on length of service. Someone like Elix Skipper is clearly notable, even if he had never stepped foot in WCW. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 14:51, 27 March 2019 (UTC)
        • Yeah this is why I suggested tiers. If I had to choose though it would be 2004–2014. Maybe two or three years service for 2002–2004 and 2014–present. StaticVapor message me! 03:59, 28 March 2019 (UTC)
          • Thing to remember with TNA/Impact is that those first couple of years at the Asylum may not have had traditional television, but they did get a fair amount of coverage in sources like Meltzer and the PWTorch, in large part because they were the best funded of the post-WCW/ECW startups and has the highest profile founders in the Jarretts. It's profile may not have matched what it later became, but I wouldn't dismiss that as non-notable. oknazevad (talk) 13:42, 28 March 2019 (UTC)


Outside of USA/Japan
General Comments

Finalizing

I made several WP:BOLD changes based on the above discussion. I think I took all concerns into account. I tried to eliminate the gray promotions ((Ring Warriors, Women of Wrestling and/or Lucha Underground) since they can always be added later. If no one has any objections we can remove the construction tag. I still have some concerns over the length of tag teams (think Riott Squad or Lucha Housparty), who can be together for a while but not be notable. Not enough of a concern to think it should hold up this process, since we have the disclaimer that it still needs to meet WP:GNG even if it meets this criteria. See these edits [2]. - Galatz גאליץשיחה Talk 20:56, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

Anyone? - Galatz גאליץשיחה Talk 13:15, 31 May 2019 (UTC)
I like it! Can we make the shortcuts consistent? We have things like WP:PWGROUP and WP:PW/NGROUP, is this normal? I do have an issue with "Promotes a large number of events annually--the more events it has promoted, the higher the likelihood it is notable." - I'm not sure how this is different from the idea below about length of service. Notable promotions don't have to hold lots of events every year (they don't even have to promote events anymore). Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 13:54, 31 May 2019 (UTC)

Its been a few weeks so I have gone ahead and removed the under construction header. I did whatever redirects were available that I thought made sense, but we can add and change as needed. We should probably add it to our banner. - Galatz גאליץשיחה Talk 17:14, 18 June 2019 (UTC)

CZW Wired title

Hi. I have a big question about this title. A few weeks ago, I saw the article and found an error. The article said Joey Janela is a 3 times champion and MJF is one time champion, but according to sources, Janela won the title 4 times and MJF, 2 times. I made the changes, but @Browndog91: reverted, since "I thought the same way as you but I messaged CZW and here is the response. Yes, MJF's win at Cage of Death 19 meant that he never lost the CZW Wired Television Title at the Wolf of Wrestling. We keep trying to make sure it shows that on Wiki are well, but folks keep changing it. It also means MJF has never lost in CZW". Now, that's interesting. I readed several sources and every one has a different title history. CZW says Janela is a 4 times, champion, MJF is a 2 times champion and Lio Rush is a 2 times champion. Solies says Janela is a 3 times champ, MJF is a 2 times and Lio Rush is a 1 time champs (Solies doesn't include the title change between Janela and Rush). Also, Solies includes Rey Fenix as former champion. Wrestlig Titles says Janela is a 3 times, MJF is a 2 times and Rush is 1 time. Maybe Browndog91 can explain the situation a bit betetr than me, but... do you have any idea? --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 12:21, 14 June 2019 (UTC)

If CZW want to get the title history right, they should put out media to that effect. We should really follow their lineage, and note differences in other sources. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 17:20, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
Yup, publish it or deal with the changes - and if they edit the list they really need to declare their COI on the matter. But if they update their site they won't hage to worry about Qikipedia as much. MPJ-DK (talk) 19:43, 18 June 2019 (UTC)

Fixing piped redirects

I am been spending a lot of time cleaning up piped redirects. One of the biggest issues with how everything was force piped was things like [[Professional wrestling tag team match types#Multiple man teamed matches|Six-man tag team match]] were all dead because the target page had been changed from "Multiple man" to "Multiple wrestler" a while ago. Instead by having it as [[Six-man tag team match]] all of the tables would be automatically updated with the change of 1 redirect. I have slowly been working my way through the WWE ones, and will continue, but if you guys come across any please fix.

The other thing this is fixing is consistency. I have come across about 4-5 different piped locations for a Hardcore match. Some sent it to Hardcore Wrestling, some sent it to Professional wrestling match types#No Disqualification match and others to Professional_wrestling_match_types#Hardcore-based_variations, among others. By forcing this to the redirect, we ensure consistency in how things are linked as well.

If we see anyone piping redirects we should point them toward WP:NOPIPE and WP:DONOTFIXIT so they understand its policy to have the redirect, and not to force pipe it, whenever possible. Thanks - Galatz גאליץשיחה Talk 17:09, 18 June 2019 (UTC)

Be patient, these guidelines and the redlink guidelines do not seem to register with less experienced or infrequent editors/IPs. MPJ-DK (talk) 19:41, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
Unfortunately yes. They also are lost on many experienced ones too. - Galatz גאליץשיחה Talk 20:06, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
Hey, I get the parts I think I understand. At least as far as I've found. No pipes, don't fix it! InedibleHulk (talk) 03:39, June 24, 2019 (UTC)
NOPIPE is a how-to guide, and DONOTFIXIT is a guideline. Neither is a policy. DONOTFIXIT specifically applies to people changing links to avoid redirects. Many of the ones you have been changing were created as direct links, and you have been introducing redirects. For example, if the article was originally created with a link to [[Mike Rotunda|Irwin R. Schyster]], there's really nothing wrong with it. Changing it so that it redirects through [[Irwin R. Schyster]] isn't harmful, but it's not really fixing anything, either. I get that you're not wrong, but I question the benefits of these changes--they aren't required by policy, and the guideline is more about people deliberately changing articles to avoid redirects, which is often not the case. The guideline also states that redirect links aren't always the best choice, so there's not necessarily one way to do things. I also question the need to wikilink [[Singles match]] repeatedly in a non-sortable table, or [[King of the Ring]] repeatedly in quaterfinal, semifinal, and final matches in an article about a King of the Ring event. I think we disagree on the phrasing of MOS:REPEATLINK, which says a link should be included only once in an article but can be repeated in a table if it significantly helps the reader's understanding. My interpretation of this is that the link in the article can be repeated once in the table, not that it should be placed in a table over and over again--I also don't think a series of identical links helps anybody's understanding, so I'm not sure that those edits are supported by the Manual of Style. I don't particularly care either way, but I don't think it's helpful to cite policies that aren't policies, and I think this work holds the possibility of biting the newcomers (WP:DONOTBITE), who may be making minor changes as they build their confidence in editing, and who may be helpful editors if given the chance rather than scolded for making changes that have little or no negative impact (not that I have seen you scold anyone, but if the project tries to stamp out a certain harmless behavior, it leads to the possibility that some may get a bit worked up about it. Again, just a few of my thoughts--take them for what they're worth. GaryColemanFan (talk) 02:49, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
Thank you for your comments. While I agree with some, I disagree with others.
One of the reasons for changing [[Mike Rotunda|Irwin R. Schyster]] to [[Irwin R. Schyster]] is spelled out in what you linked, that it just makes reading the wikitext harder to read. When you have piped link after piped link stuff can get really confusing. Try reading the event section in wikitext when every move is separately linked with a pipe.
This much more so applies to the type of match, in the event box. For example, there used to be a ton of links to [[Royal Rumble|Royal Rumble match]], however last year when I created a separate page for the match, I needed to manually change each one to [[Royal Rumble match]]. By starting with each one as the redirect, once the page is created there is no needed to update the links. Similarly to the examples I gave above with regard to "Hardcore match" being inconsistent, and stale links in where they piped to.
As for the point about linking multiple times, MOS:DL states Duplicate linking in stand-alone and embedded lists is permissible if it significantly aids the reader. This is most often the case when the list is presenting information that could just as aptly be formatted in a table, and is expected to be parsed for particular bits of data, not read from top to bottom. I believe this is pretty clear that information which is likely to be read in segments and not in its entirety (top to bottom) that its appropriate to repeat the link. For example, I will consistently go back to a particular event's page to look at something for one match, or something similar. When people go to a table to look at information for 1 match, its helpful to have the information linked just there. For example, if there was a match, say the 2nd match of the night, to determine the #1 contender to the WWE Tag Team Championship, and then the 11th match was a match for that same championship, the championship would not be linked historically in the row for the actual championship. That the user would either need to assume it was linked earlier (why would they assume that if they are a newby and everything else is linked) and search for where, or just manually go to the title page by searching for WWE Tag Team Championship, in the search box. When they search for it however they will wind up at a page summarizing the 11 different championships the WWE has had for tag teams. When they then look at the list they will never be able to figure out which championship it was because none are listed as that name, they would need to know the Raw championship was previously called that. Is this a bit of an extreme example, yes. Is it completely realistic, absolutely.
Every championship article links Raw and SmackDown whenever its mentioned. If a person has won the title 7,000 times their name would be linked 7,000 times. If you look at List of WWE Hardcore Champions you will see that Raven won the championship 27 times and his name is linked 30 times in the article. His name appears 32 times in the article, the only place it is not linked is when its already linked on that row. Why would this be different than events? If you look at Major League Baseball Most Valuable Player Award or List of Super Bowl starting quarterbacks or Academy Award for Best Director you will see that duplicate names are linked there as well. Thats because each of those lines are pieces of data which are likely to be digested individually, and therefore links are duplicated. As for the Best Director example, lets take that one step further and look at the one time there was a duplicate, at the 11th Academy Awards page. For best director, you will see Michael Curtiz linked once because you would took at all the nominators in one grouping, just like you would look at one match. But his movies Angels with Dirty Faces and Four Daughters are each linked individually each time. Just like how someone is likely to go to the 11th Academy Awards article and look at just Best Director, they are likely to go to WrestleMania IX and look at just the main event.
Thanks - Galatz גאליץשיחה Talk 13:24, 19 June 2019 (UTC)

Matt Taven ROH title defenses

Hello, I was wondering if anyone could find a good source that says Taven defended his title at RCW 16th Anniversary: Showdown? Cagematch has been linked but they don't always get things right for example they will advertise current ROH Champion Matt Taven vs anyone else and Cagematch sometimes puts this as title defense when it is a non title match. So if nothing can be found to suggest that it was for the title I would like to see Taven dropped to 4 defenses. I know this is very nit picky but probably the main problem is people thinking if something is on Cagematch it must be true when it is just a results site. Browndog91 06:04, 22 June 2019 (UTC)

I thought we agreed over a year ago to get rid of that column because it's a pain to maintain as it's easily outdated, poorly sourced as ROH no longer track defenses themselves (and cagematcb is best described as a fan site that can never be considered complete; it's embarrassing that we use it as a source at all), and essentially trivial junk. oknazevad (talk) 05:04, 22 June 2019 (UTC)
Do you have a link to the discussion?? If not we can't really get rid of it without proper discussion. Browndog91 06:04, 22 June 2019 (UTC)
Per the project style guide, we only include the column of the promotion recognizes such a number. ROH does not. They used to, but they stopped somewhere along the way, so per the existing guidance the copoumn shluld be removed. Considering how crowded the edit history is with overly frequent updates just t change one number because of a single match somewhere, I frankly think we should get rid of the column from every championship article regardless of promotion, but even if we don't, the ROH titles should have it removed to match the guideline. oknazevad (talk) 12:00, 22 June 2019 (UTC)
I can't even find the title history on the website so I agree with removing it from ring of honor title history's but as for other promotions who do count defenses keep it, it isn't too much of a problem as far as edit history is concerned but anyway 2 people isn't enough for consensus hopefully more people chime in on this. Browndog91 (talk) 14:00, 22 June 2019 (UTC)
In fact, title defences are very important in Japan. I think is fine, promotion tracks defences, keep. Doens't, delete. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 15:41, 22 June 2019 (UTC)
Yeah I think we should remove the number of defenses if we do not have a source from the promotion keeping track of it. StaticVapor message me! 22:07, 22 June 2019 (UTC)
I will say Ring of Honors websites seems to be very incomplete, I mentioned that I can't find the title history on the official website but if you look at the alumni section there are alot of names missing so they may be in the process of completing it so I say keep monitoring the website and until such time as they put up a title history with a list of defenses for each it should be removed. Not saying it won't come back but for now it should be removed. Browndog91 (talk) 02:06, 23 June 2019 (UTC)

July Collab of the Month

Any thoughts on a July monthly collab? I want to nominate Attitude Era...it has 12 cleanup tags and needs tons of work. Any thoughts?

I think it's a good article for CotM. I will do my best. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 21:09, 23 June 2019 (UTC)
Absolutely. This is long overdue. JTP (talk • contribs) 00:28, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

ARS Tournament up for deletion

Someone put ARS (wrestling tournament) up for deletion at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/ARS_(wrestling_tournament). This was definitely covered in the Wrestling Observer when it happened, so if anyone could post a source from it, I would appreciate it. I do not have access to the Observer. It seems to meet all wrestling tournament criteria and I'm not sure if the user understands that japanese female wrestling would have gotten 0 coverage in the US due to multiple reasons. Apparently the 3 sources listed are not enough information. [User:KatoKungLee|KatoKungLee]] (talk) 02:53, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

  • Problem is that PWHistory, Cagematch and WrestlingData is not enough to establish "significant coverage" since it's just results. Btw. Japanese language sources are fine too. MPJ-DK (talk) 03:06, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
    • I can promise it was listed in the Wrestling Observer, but I don't have paid access to it. It was likely also listed in wrestling magazines in Japan, but I don't have access to that, nor would I be able to read it. Cagematch is listed as an acceptable source, but every japanese wrestling article will be up for deletion if it requires the mainsteam media talking about it, since they never covered wrestling, yet alone japanese wrestling. The promotion is also now closed which makes things harder. Stuff like this is really why I don't contribute much and discourage others from doing the same.KatoKungLee (talk) 03:29, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
      • Cagematch is listed as reliable source for results only. It doesn't establishes notability since covers every single pro wrestling event in the planet. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 12:38, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
        • I really don't see how it's notable. If there are Japanese sources, the WP:BURDEN is on you to find them. Coverage on Wrestling Observer, whilst good, isn't going to prove notability on its own. As above cagematch isn't helpful for notability of the subject. The results can be verified by cagematch, but that's pretty much the whole deal. I should also mention that bringing up the deletion discussion like this could be considered WP:CANVASSING which I'm sure you aren't trying to do, the arguments for and against deletion should be in the deletion discussion alone. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 13:54, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
          • The request was "can you guys help me find sources" not "go vote", after all the best way to surive an AFD is to address the issues, not vote stacking or anything like that. MPJ-DK (talk) 14:10, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
Go vote at this AfD would have been fine. Linking an AfD then arguing how notable it is isn't in my book. Not that it matters. A search for me doesn't bring up much, and if there is only a mention in the Observer there won't be enough. This conversation should be at the AfD, not here. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 18:35, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
The original post was a request for help in finding sources to help establish notability. That's an excellent use of a Wikiproject talk page. That's what Wikiprojects should do. The original post did not ask anyone to voice an opinion on the current state of the article. There is no canvassing going on here. GaryColemanFan (talk) 21:11, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
The first two tournaments are covered in the Observer but it's literally just results and "they had a tournament". May 18, 1998 and May 10, 1999 issues. Don't see anything on the 2000-2002 tournaments from a skim at issues that would have results.Froo (talk) 13:42, 26 June 2019 (UTC)

CZW Tag Team title history

Hello, I was going through CZW tag team title history and noticed that the REP are listed as tag team champions. Now at CZW Trifecta Elimination 2019 results sites have The House Of Gangone (Anthony Gangone & The Amazing Red) winning the titles, so I went looking for some sources as to what happened and couldn't find anything but I found a thing on reddit that mentions the finish of the match being botched and that House Of Gangone weren't meant to win the titles. So should we have this in the notes section because I think it is worth mentioning and does anyone have more concrete about what has actually happened thanks. Browndog91 (talk) Browndog91 05:27, 29 June 2019 (UTC)

Draft:POST Wrestling

Anyone have an idea what to do with this draft? I'm not good at making large website articles myself. I want it to be completed but it has sadly not been edited much in a while.★Trekker (talk) 15:14, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

I'm for cutting a lot of it. We don't need all the quotes, or the patreon levels IMO. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 15:24, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

NJPW Major Events

Currently there is a page List of NJPW pay-per-view events, that a couple of users would like to move to encompass more than just PPV, I guess similar to how ECW and WCW include more than just PPV. The issue is, what is a major event or what criteria should be used. If more people could chime in at Talk:List_of_NJPW_pay-per-view_events#Major_show_definition, it would be helpful. I just dont know enough about NJPW to be helpful here. - Galatz גאליץשיחה Talk 13:31, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

Kofi Kingston article lead

The lead sentence in the Kofi Kingston article uses the term "Ghanaian-American", but as per WP:ETHNICITY, a BLP Lead should not mention previous nationalities or the place of birth unless they are relevant to the subject's notability. The question is whether Mr. Kingston's "Place of Birth" or "Nationality" is notable enough apart from him being billed from "Ghana, West Africa" in WWE. If not then I believe, "Ghanaian-American" in the lead needs to be replaced with "American". - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 14:58, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

@Fylindfotberserk: I believe it should just say "Ghanaian professional wrestler". Although he now lives in the US, its not where he was born. This would be in line with others, such as Killian Dain, Shinsuke Nakamura, Finn Bálor, Becky Lynch, Paige (wrestler), Jinder Mahal, etc. They all were born in a different country, now live in the US, but only list their home country. - Galatz גאליץשיחה Talk 17:09, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
Galatz, Do you have any info on his citizenship? If he is still a Ghanaian citizen, then "Ghanaian professional wrestler" in the lead would be totally OK. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 17:17, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
@Fylindfotberserk: In that same regard, we do not know if he is here on a work visa or a US citizen. He went to HS in the US but that does not make him a citizen. - Galatz גאליץשיחה Talk 17:37, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
Galatz, Hmm.. Probably should use the phrase "Ghanaian professional wrestler" then, similar to other articles you mentioned above. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 17:48, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
[3] According to his mother, he was born in Ghana and moved to US in 1982. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 19:43, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
Well, as the policy says, I think the birth place and (possible previous) nationality it's important. Kingston is billed since 2010 from Ghana. Also, he is the first African-born wrestler to win the WWE Championship. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 19:40, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
@HHH Pedrigree: Being "billed" from Ghana in WWE is not something that can be considered reliably notable, since Jinder Mahal is also "billed" from India, but his lead says "Canadian professional wrestler". The question is about his citizenship. If he is both a Ghanaian and American citizen then no need to change the lead. If he is only an American citizen, then IMO we should frame it as Ghanaian born American Professional wrestler. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 10:08, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
Galatz, @HHH Pedrigree: Any thoughts on the above suggestion? - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 11:41, 20 July 2019 (UTC)
OK, Let's try to find his citizen, I always assumed he has both. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 13:16, 20 July 2019 (UTC)

Some of our Top importance and Level 5 vital articles

I'm questioning the following wrestlers' ranking on our professional wrestling importance scale and the vital article scale. I'm of the belief that our importance lists are too centered on the United States. I'm sure all of the above wrestlers are American wrestling icons. But did they transcend wrestling to become cultural icons? I'm not so sure. Not like the following non-American wrestlers. starship.paint (talk) 13:40, 6 July 2019 (UTC)

  • Giant Baba [4] - Japanese people (not specifically only wrestling fans) ranked him in the top 100 historical world figures, ahead of Issac Newton, Chopin and Abraham Lincoln
  • Antonio Inoki (Level 5) - he faced Muhammad Ali in a precursor to modern MMA [5]
  • Blue Demon - one of the "three greatest luchadores in Mexican history", collectively "starred in more than 75 cult films" in-character [6]
  • Mil Mascaras - also one of the "three greatest luchadores in Mexican history", collectively "starred in more than 75 cult films" in-character [7]

So, I'm thinking, we add the above wrestlers to Top-importance, and replace 4 from the top list of Level 5 Vital articles with these 4. As much as those on the first list are wrestling icons, none of them would make the top 100 historical world figures by Americans, none of them will face someone like Ali, and none of them, will have 20+ films about themselves in-character. starship.paint (talk) 13:40, 6 July 2019 (UTC)

Benoit is more important than most of them because of how the end of his life impacted the culture of wrestling and the public view on it. The vital articles are not "best wrestlers ever" listings. And as so far as both Mil Mascaras and Blue Demon goes, yes they are regarded as some of the "best luchadors ever", but on the other hand people like Ric Flair, Bret Hart, Undertaker and Randy Savage are also widely regarded as some of the best of all time. Being a cultural icon in mainsteam culture is also an incredibly vague subject, for example Hart is very much without a doubt the biggest wrestling star to come out of Canada but how important is that overall? For example the link you have with votes for Baba is a nice trivia in his article but hardly something we should take very seriously, it is without a doubt a very biased poll considering it's asking for "favorite" people among a very large and broad subject, Baba, Lincoln and Newton don't have much in common and asking to pick among them emotionally is odd in the first place.★Trekker (talk) 14:22, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
I’m not sure if you got my point. I wasn’t arguing at all for “best wrestlers ever”. My point is simply that the people in the first list are not cultural icons, but the people in the second list are. The people in the first list being regarded as some of the best wrestlers of all time isn’t good enough. In Mexico, Lucha Libre is like a national ‘sport’. Is it the same in the US? I doubt it, there’s Basketball, American Football, Baseball, Hockey? starship.paint (talk) 15:51, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
I understood exactly what you said and I countered it, if you didn't want to have me discuss "best wrestlers" you shouldn't have mentioned it at all. My main point was that "cultural icon" does aply to most of the above people if you look at it from different point of views.★Trekker (talk) 06:05, 7 July 2019 (UTC)
@*Treker: - sources please? ""cultural icon" for these wrestlers. starship.paint (talk) 12:14, 12 July 2019 (UTC)
For Hart, [8], [9], [10], [11], [12], [13], [14], [15], [16]. That took about 15 seconds. Also, please don't ping me, I reply if I feel the need.★Trekker (talk) 14:27, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

Our expert on this field Dave Meltzer: [17] Santo and Rikidozan would be the biggest. Next tier would be Londos, Kim Il, Baba, Inoki, Hogan, The Rock, Blue Demon, Dara Singh starship.paint (talk) 15:58, 6 July 2019 (UTC)

Cena, Undertaker and Benoit have legitimate claims to having cultural impact. Note the word impact, as "icon" would suggest that they were deemed to be iconic wrestlers. Benoit's death, and the field around it is incredibly important. In terms of wrestling, sure, he's not high importance. But his legacy really is. Cena and Undertaker have very clear cultural impact (even if it's just the "you can't see me" memes, etc.)
As much as I respect Dave Metzler, we can't just take his opinion alone for this sort of thing. I'd be very happy with Inoki and Baba being added. Blue Demon potentially, but he doesn't have a great worldwide appeal in my eyes. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 17:49, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
Problem is there is a limited number of people who can be Vital articles.★Trekker (talk) 06:05, 7 July 2019 (UTC)
I'd remove Cena and Savage. Cena was never the megastar WWE wanted him to be, at least not until he started working outside the company and did a movie with Amy Schumer. Savage was a major star but Hogan was always the top guy while he was around. House shows would still sell out if he was headlining as IC champion but I don't think his drawing ability compares to the other guys we're talking about here. If we were talking just in terms of United States popularity (we aren't), I'd remove Bret Hart. Hart was the top guy during WWF's worst rated years (at least until recently) and floundered in WCW, but he was a much larger pop culture figure in Canada. Removing Flair is inconceivable (Meltzer has repeatedly said he's the GOAT) and Benoit is one of the most notorious names in industry history. I'd replace Cena and Savage with Baba and Mildred Burke. Inoki is already on the list.LM2000 (talk) 07:31, 7 July 2019 (UTC)
I disagree, and I think we should keep all of the current ones. I think Cena and Savage have had, and continue to have, a pervasive influence on popular culture. I think the better choice would be posting on the Vital Articles talk page and requesting an increase in the quota from 25 to 26 so Giant Baba can be included (or requesting that Professional Wrestling be split off with a quota of 20, which would allow for the inclusion of Giant Baba and a second wrestler to be determined by a WP:PW discussion, which seems more promising, as they seem to like multiples of 5). I don't see how that would be problematic--I mean no disrespect to Billings, Montana, but it's a Level 5 Vital Article. Surely Giant Baba can meet the equivalent threshold. GaryColemanFan (talk) 05:22, 8 July 2019 (UTC)
I'm not entirely familiar with how the vital articles process works but we should change the pro wrestling set-up. Shouldn't pro wrestlers have a separate category from the competitive athletes? Regardless, picking a Mount Rushmore of wrestling is very subjective because there are a lot of good candidates, so it's not surprising we have many disagreements here, but the high praise for Baba means we should squeeze him in there somewhere.LM2000 (talk) 08:47, 8 July 2019 (UTC)
@GaryColemanFan: - Cena and Savage have had, and continue to have, a pervasive influence on popular culture. - source? Meanwhile, for Mil Mascaras, [18] How legendary does one have to be to boast his own postage stamp? ... Mascaras was honored in May 2011 by the Mexican Postal Service ... A star in the ring and on Mexico's big screen [19] his film and wrestling career spanned four decades, and he starred in some of the classics of the genre. Furthermore, the Mexican stars starred in films as themselves, fighting monsters like the Mummy, Frankenstein, Dracula, a werewolf, a Cyclops, whereas Cena clearly wasn't playing his wrestler character in movies. The earlier argument that Cena has pop culture influence because he is an Internet meme just ... makes Cena seem less popular, really, because he's apparently popular for being a joke meme than for his actual accomplishments. Santo himself had same media status as some of his American super-hero counterparts like Batman and Superman. starship.paint (talk) 07:21, 9 July 2019 (UTC)
requesting an increase in the quota from 25 to 26 so Giant Baba can be included (or requesting that Professional Wrestling be split off with a quota of 20 - we could try that, but what I think will happen is that our quota will instead get reduced. We actually have a separate list of 4 for Level 5 Pro wrestling businessmen. Were we to have 25 level 5 vital articles, that would put us on the level of gymnastics, and more than swimming, cycling. Not sure if people will stand for that. starship.paint (talk) 07:36, 9 July 2019 (UTC)
It's also worth noting that Cena is both a vital article and one of eight wrestlers to also be a top importance article. If it was up to me he'd be neither but the top importance spot is especially egregious. It is a very WWE-centric list, Inoki would be a better fit for that spot. Starship's concerns about a reduction if we complain are pretty sound as well. We may just have to make tough choices.LM2000 (talk) 18:09, 9 July 2019 (UTC)
Starship, I'm not arguing against Mil Mascaras, but I disagree with some of the points being made. Yes, the list includes a lot of American wrestlers. That's not, in and of itself, a problem. The biggest company in the world is American. It makes the most money and reaches the most people, in part because of its appeal around the world, and in part because the USA has a bigger population than Japan and Mexico combined. Those are just objective facts--I'm neither American nor a WWE fan. Dismissing John Cena's impact on popular culture as merely a meme is disingenuous. Mil Mascaras would be great to add, but not at the expense of anyone currently on the list, and not because of a pile of low-budget movies that probably haven't made as much money combined as John Cena's latest movie. The postage stamp argument doesn't work particularly well, either, because, until recently, the USA and Mexico had different laws about depicting people on stamps. GaryColemanFan (talk) 16:15, 11 July 2019 (UTC)
@GaryColemanFan: - I'm not saying that having many American wrestlers is a problem. If every American wrestler on that list were like Hulk Hogan or The Rock, I wouldn't have a problem with their inclusions. But Cena's simply isn't on these guys' level. Plus Rock is a movie star too. Top yearly earner recently. Cena's movie career isn't that impressive, really. Cameo, WWE Studios x3, direct-to-video x3, minor role in Trainwreck, minor role in Sisters, cameo, direct-to-video, leading role in minor film The Wall, minor role in Daddy's Home 2, leading role in an animated film that did worse than all 5 Ice Age films of the same studio, one of three main characters in Blockers, and well, there's Bumblebee. Cena's greatest film success, of which the draw is Bumblebee itself, as displayed by the title, and the film's poster shows that Cena isn't even the top human character in the film. It certainly seems that Cena doesn't even reach the level of Rock being a leading man for The Scorpion King, and I dare say Batista's role as Drax the Destroyer in the blockbuster Marvel films will go down in memory more than Cena's film characters. starship.paint (talk) 12:13, 12 July 2019 (UTC)
Your entire argument rests on POV.★Trekker (talk) 14:27, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

Over the years, I've begun to realize the US is very very very focused on American wrestling. Not even American wrestling, mainly just WWE. Now this project has always had that issue since I started. The only articles that were expanded were the WWE stuff. I focused on the TNA and indy stuff. MPJ focused on the lucha material. Ribbon Salminen focused on the Japanese articles. Otherwise, everyone else was just focused on WWE history, current events, and future happenings. This section kind of shows that is still an issue. This may be the English Wikipedia but that doesn't mean it is the American Wikipedia. The wrestling world is much larger than the WWE alone. There are figures in the industry who are hugely important that have never ever wrestled for the WWE or even been featured on their programming. Events have occurred that have been more important than WrestleMania. Crowds larger than any WWE show. Matches greater with more significance than WWE stuff. To lay down the importance of the industry, why are the first six mentioned WWE guys? Why is it debatable that Inoki isn't a defacto important person. This man shaped wrestling on multiple continents, shaped promotions, shaped politics, and main evented the largest wrestling crowd in the industry's history. He is more important than Taker, Cena, Savage, and Hart easily. Hogan and Flair are the only ones that challenge him in terms of significance with Benoit being important solely due to June 2007. Otherwise, Benoit isn't even in the ballpark.--WillC 09:52, 23 July 2019 (UTC)

I feel the same, a lot of english wikipedia is focused around WWE. It's normal, is the biggest promotion in the world, but as you said, there are many wrestlers (example, El Santo, Blue Demon, Inoki, Baba...) bigger than WWE wrestlers. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 10:30, 23 July 2019 (UTC)
@GaryColemanFan: Some of your arguments placed above I must disagree with, I feel falls under that "WWE is god mentality" I've seen. It is the conditioning the company has done for so long to make them seem like something they aren't. It is very easy to find on message boards these days thanks to fanboys being upset about AEW. You say WWE is the biggest company in the world. Yes, that is true. They are quite large with the network, studios, etc. They have the largest schedule. So on that point it is true. Problem with that, is it is almost entirely in the states but for like a handful of shows a year that are in Europe. It makes alot of money, domestically. Of the 1.5 million subs for the Network, 1.1 of them are domestic. Almost their entire fan base is in the states and it is shrinking drastically. Now falling to under 2 million on average. WCW Thunder numbers and SD are looking alike. Meanwhile, you say it reaches the most people. Which isn't hard. Anyone with an internet connection can sign up for WWE Network, Honor Club, Impact plus, or NJPW World in a handful of minutes. They can all connect all over the planet. Cena has had an impact on pop culture....in the states. Has he over the planet? The states do not have the largest pops by far. In fact, NJPW to an extent has a larger reach to people by spanning all over Asia and the billions...not millions....on that continent. Cena's impact is large to us because we see it regularly. To a Japanese viewer, I'm sure that Okada at this extent has more of a cultural impact than Cena does. Objectively, the largest crowd Cena has been in is a .0002% of the entire US population. Okada has been in .0003% of the Japanese population. One was a larger attendance number, but one has a higher proportion of the population. One may have more of a cultural impact in that country. Beyond that, cultural discussions come into play. I recall during the Mayweather v McGregor press conferences, on the regular Inoki vs Ali was mentioned. That fight allow was revolutionary in sports for its unique style, its crossover appeal, and overall odd-fuckedness. And that fight was before Hulkamania. It was watched by 1.4 billion viewers worldwide. More than anything any other wrestler in the entire business has achieved. Not Hogan, Rock, Austin, Savage, Hart, or Cena have ever ever ever been able to get that many viewers. Hell, the fight got 54 million in Japan and 2 million in the states. More than any Mania, 10 years before Mania 1. Again, just because the guy is in WWE doesn't mean they are that important to the industry. Thats the "WWE is god" mentality. It isn't. It is important in the states. Elsewhere, the hometown company reigns supreme. WWE hasn't sold the Tokyo Dome out. They haven't pulled a massive crowd in the UK in a long long time. They aren't selling out huge arenas around the world, they are doing it in the US. It is easy to look massive when you have 330 million people to work with, but when you add in the other 6.7 billion around the world, they aren't that big at selling. They aren't selling out the Plaza de Toros México, the Dome, or Wembley anymore. They don't have the largest number, thats still WCW and NJPW which was main evented not by Hogan, Cena, Rock, Austin, Hart, Savage, or a single WWE star but by Inoki. WWE's legacy is a false narrative of absolute dominance and ability, when it is a good marketing campaign. Just being in the company doesn't make you important in the industry. Cena certainly didn't draw more than Inoki and even on his best day never got close.--WillC 10:32, 23 July 2019 (UTC)
Like HHH Pedrigree, I agree with everything you said in your first post too. There seems to be rough agreement here that Baba belongs but who do we drop? I again recommend Cena be dropped from both lists, in favor of Baba being promoted to Level 5 and Inoki being promoted to Top importance. I have other suggestions on replacements but perhaps we should take this one step at a time if we want any changes to actually take place.LM2000 (talk) 10:56, 23 July 2019 (UTC)
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