Talk:Shaolin Monastery

Article refers to "Shaolin Temples" as in multiple. That is a classic exmaple of misinformation spread through sources like this. The only sources that claim multiple shaolins are the Shaolin-Do people (who themselves have nothing), and those who claim a southern temple exists. Both claims are apocryphal, with Shaolin-Dos being fictional and the idea of a "southern shaolin" being more likely yet still misleading (maybe a prominant temple training martial arts in the south, but there is only one shaolin). Maybe eliminate this reference to more than one shaolin, or to shaolin as an "order." Just a suggestion.

Can't understand a line in the present article:

his contributions to the martial arts have lately been in dispute; some say that elements of the spiritual content of the martial arts credited to him contain teachings reminiscent of the esoteric (Mi Tsung) and Yogacara (Wei Shih) Buddhist traditions.

What's the dispute? Mandel - May 14, 2004

Unattributed story

For the following story to be encyclopaedic we are going to need to know who originally told it, who tells it today, and why it is relevant to the Shaolin temple. If these requirements are meant, then it really should go on the Shaolin Quan martial art article, not this one, which is about the Buddhist temple.

"It is said that at one point in history, a teacher had a student that only wanted to learn the martial arts. So, the teacher told him to fill a huge copper basin with water every day and splash the water out with his hands. He did this for a full year, every day, from dawn to dusk. At the end of the year, the monk went back to see his family and friends. All through the day they asked him what he'd learned, and finally he was fed up,and he slammed his hands down on the table (in a splashing motion) and said, "I HAVE LEARNED NOTHING!" seconds later, the 4+ inch thick wooden table split apart... This is the perfect example of the Shaolin principle that the martial arts can be simple, yet extremely destructive."

I removed it from the article but put it here so that it will be easier to rewrite and then cut and paste into its appropriate spot. Fire Star 08:08, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I've also heard this legend. I'm sorry to say that I don't know its source though. There is another similar legend about two brothers. Basically, the big mean one stole the smaller one's inheritance. The small brother found a master who told him to hold a calf and jump over a tree sapling everyday. Overtime, as the calf grew into a cow and the sapling into a tree, the smaller brother could jump higher and higher. After 3 years (I think), he asked the master if he could begin to learn kung fu, but was told his training was complete. The master gave the cow to him as a parting gift. When the smaller brother returned home, he picked up his cow and ran over to his bigger brother in full stride. Seeing this, the big brother dared not start trouble with him!!! (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 01:28, 2 August 2006 (UTC))

Ghostexorcist, are you sure you're not talking about Milo of Croton?. JFD 07:50, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I'm positive. I heard it a long time ago before I went into the army, but I can't seem to find the exact kung fu website that told the story in detail. I think it had the words "Purple Dragon" or "Blue Dragon" in the school's name. However, I took the liberty of searching some kungfu forums and found this:

WongFeHung

05-31-2001, 10:12 AM

okay, so if I follow your thinking, I can take a calf, and plant a sprout, jump over the sprout holding the calf every day until within a few years, I should be able to jump over a tree holding a cow! ...

Kung Lek

06-04-2001, 05:02 AM

Hi-

The stories many of us have heard about the hole jumping, the lifting the calf and jumping a bush until the calfis a cow and the bush is a tree are just that, stories ... [1]

HERE! is another forum entry.

You are right JFD, parts of Milo's life do sound similar to this story. I've even heard of how Hercules used cows as weights to work out with! (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 09:09, 25 August 2006 (UTC))

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I've just recently found the martial arts site that has this story. It was the "Blue Dragon" Kung fu school. Here is a portion of it:

"To begin training the younger brother, the master found a small young willow tree and asked the brother to jump over the tree while holding a new born calf, which was given to the younger brother as a present by the master. The younger brother was commanded to do this task everyday, to jump over the same willow tree while holding the same calf. As time passed, the quick growing willow became taller and the calf grew bigger and heavier. After three years of this task, the younger brother was able to jump the tall willow with a cow in his hands." (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 23:35, 29 October 2006 (UTC))

I heard a variation of this story 60 years ago in a small town in Nebraska. My father pointed out the fact that a calf will grow faster than a boy, and while the calf starts smaller than the boy it quickly gets larger. At some point 2 lines on the graph get crossed. The other story was the one about the farmer who weans his cow off of hay and onto sawdust. He has almost completely replaced the hay with sawdust, but at that point the cow unfortunately dies. There is a glimmer of truth in these stories, twisted though it may be, but I don't think either one of them belongs anywhere other than in an article on childlike thinking. (Of course you know the story about the father who asks his kids what they want to do when they grow up. The daughter says she wants to be a spaceship pilot and visit the moon. The the little brother jumps in and says he wants to be a spaceship pilot too, and visit the sun. You'd burn up, cautions the father. "No. I'd go at night," says his son. That's the kind of thing I refer to as "childlike thinking." P0M 07:17, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Possible Vandlism

Wu-Tang Clan is in the "See Also" section. I don't really have the time to check every old version to see any context in which that was added, but this seems more like subtle vandlism to me than any relevant side reference. I don't think a group of rappers taking a pseudo-Chinese name and referring to their hometown as "Shaolin" merits being on this page. The Red Hot Chili Peppers have a song that mentions Shaolin a few times, but they aren't on here, nor should they be. In the unlikely event that there was an actual Shaolin group with the same name as the rappers, a disambiguation page should be set up.

I would delete it myself but figured I would wait a few days to see if anyone had any objections to me doing so. --BDD 03:15, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Maybe a "Popular Media" sub-heading should be made. Then all of the above material could be added. This way, it wouldn't be vandalism, but just showing Shaolin's influence on American culture. (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 01:31, 2 August 2006 (UTC))

New edits

JFD amended the text to the following:

By far the best-known destruction of the Shaolin—by the Qing Dynasty—may have taken place only in the propaganda of anti-Qing rebel groups like the Tiandihui. In fact, Kangxi, the second Qing emperor, was such a supporter of the Shaolin temple in Henan that he wrote the calligraphic inscription that, to this day, hangs over the main temple gate.

On hindsight, it does seemed that the Manchu destruction of Shaolin is apocryphal. However, I don't think it's likely that it's a story propagated by Tiandihui. Mandel 11:39, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

Does the present text seem to contain too much textual details? Mandel 12:58, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

Advertising

A man by the name of William Banks (or a student thereof), has been advertising his martial arts school on Wikipedia. I have removed a link from this page. CoderGnome 19:28, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Shaolin authenticity

There were four major Shaolin temples before the Chinese civil war and the migration of the order to North America. These included one at Henan (the one that has been rebuilt and repopulated with "Shaolin monks", trained in adaptation of civilian styles, by the Chinese government), Guangdong, Omei Shan, and Fujian. The exact locations of these temples varied over the years, as successive dynasties attacked them when they perceived the monks as a threat. In addition numerous minor temples sprung over time and were destroyed or abandoned. For a reference see "The Shaolin Grandmasters' Text" by the Order of Shaolin Ch'an. Many civilian Southern forms of kung fu, including Hung Gar, trace their lineage to Fujian or Guangdong temples.

In addition I would include that there is contention that the temple as it is known today, its martial arts, and its practices are not authentically Shaolin. According to the text mentioned above the Chinese civil war forced the mass exodus of the Shaolin order from China. It is widely known that Henan temple was destroyed during the war; and also, Mao Zedong's hardline against religion led to the mass execution of most public Buddhist personas (in 1949 the communist party officially banned Daoism and Buddhism and began the violent purging of clerics). Why, then, would the order have survived? The answer is most probably that it did not; and the claims made by "The Shaolin Grandmasters' Text" corroborate this. In 1976, when China officially rebuilt the Henan temple, it did so as a publicity stunt in order that it might improve the nation's image and cultural standing. The Buddhist practices of the modern "temple" are also widely inconsistent with those recorded practices of Shaolin, including, most prominently, the exclusion of women. As the Shaolin nun Ng Mui (founder of Wing Chun) amply demonstrates both women and men were allowed in the temple and, according to "The Shaolin Grandmasters' Text" there had even been several female abbots over the centuries. Celibacy, too, was never mandated by Shaolin, as a decree by the Tang emperor Li Shimin permitting marriage and sex indicates.

Ch'an Buddhist acquaintances of mine have also stated that, upon visiting the temple, they were surprised that the "Buddhism" of the monks was based almost entirely upon ritual displays and had little, if anything, to do with actually Ch'an. Further, there is absolutely no integration (I can verify this myself, having studied at the overseas branch of Henan Temple in New York City) of Buddhism with martial arts -- however, the original Shaolin arts were intimately intertwined with Ch'an Buddhist philosophy, and only the most basic movements were strictly athletic.

What happened to the actual order? According to the individuals who call themselves the Order of Shaolin Ch'an, those who were not killed during the destruction of the temples agreed to flee China; and by 1931 the last living master had left the country. They went to Canada and to the United States, eventually convening on New York's Chinatown and reconstituting the temple there.

The authenticity of the book can certainly be debated. However, in a quick comparison of its practices to those of the modern, and popular, temple, the latter is hard-pressed to prove itself as a "Buddhist" institution. It was strictly against Shaolin rules to perform for outsiders -- temple secrets were kept as temple secrets -- yet the modern temple continuously exhibits itself for the public. True older masters (a number of whom I have had the privilege of studying with) recognize that the movements in these performances are directly from Wushu and bear little, or no, relationship to the animal styles or forms they call themselves. In the Chinese martial arts emigre community the "Qigong" stunts performed by the "Shaolin monks" are considered magic tricks; and, in fact, I myself have met a taiji student who could accurately replicate several of the "feats", such as holding fast to a bowl with his stomach muscles while a chain of men pulled on the bowl, without the use of internal power or strength. He said to me, and I quote: "The 'monks', as they style themselves, are no more impressive than any casino magician". While that may or may not be true it certainly is accepted by studied individuals that the performances have nothing to do with true cultivation and use of internal power.

I quote from "The Shaolin Grandmasters' Text":

"'Shaolin monks' at today's temples are government employees. There is a burgeoning tourist/pilgrimage business, and just outside the main gates you can refresh yourself with dim sum and Shaolin Cola. Our contacts who have visited the Temple beginning in 1985 believe it is more a trendy tourist spot than a real effort to restore the arts and the Buddhism outlawed by successive Chinese governments from 1901 up to the present. The tourism business must be booming, as well, since three more 'Shaolin Temples' have recently been built. Fukien Province now boasts Shaolin Temples at Putian, Fuqing, and Quanzhou (this last site likely never served as a Shaolin temple)."

"The Chinese government believes that the mere presence of martial arts instructors at the Honan Temple makes the Temple authentic. The same government was also responsible for the 'removal' of the Dalai Lama's choice for the reincarnated Panchen Lama in 1989, substituting their own child in the role. Yang [a martial arts researcher cited in the book] remarks that, in the late 1980s, the PRC actually attempted to search out and revive some of the Chinese martial traditions with a special committee, but so many traditional masters had been executed during the Cultural Revolution that most living masters did not trust the communists' intentions. These were civilian masters. So one wonders: where did this onslaught of twenty and thirty-something "Shaolin monks" practicing village style Long Fist come from?"

Clearly there is much that can be disputed and the truth can never really be known. However, multiple accounts corroborate the assertion that, if nothing else, the martial arts taught at the modern Henan temple are not derived from traditional styles but are instead forms of the sport Wushu. "The Shaolin Grandmasters' Text" asserts that there is nothing necessarily wrong with the methods taught at the Henan temple but that it is fallacious to label them Shaolin. I think, if nothing else, that deserves mention.

Sources for those interested:

Order of Shaolin Ch'an. "The Shaolin Grandmasters' Text: History, Philosophy, and Gung Fu of Shaolin Ch'an". Order of Shaolin Ch'an, Beaverton, 2004

http://www.shaolin.com/shaolin_faq.aspx#anchor187631

Funk, Jon. "The Shaolin Temple Hoax". Black Belt 1996, 21

I and im pretty sure many people are interested in this period. i was wondering, if its possible, if you could mention some of the people you talked to. I think most of what you say to be truthful, however, i don't think EVERYONE fled China, although it was a very small percentage. I do not have any "verifiable" sources other than my own family history and fellow martial art peers and teachers. I have read some books but they seem to opinionated on the matter (whether they make sense or not). I know people a few people who probably should have left stay, and they were killed but some did survive. I was told some martial arts masters did stay although they did not practice their martial arts in public for a couple of decades. Later on as the hardline Mao disciples were fading, some of them did agree to work with the government on trying to revive the curriculum. Of course this was practically impossible, this is why the Shaolin monks are also trained in taichi, xingyi, bagua, and contemporary wushu.

Also, all the authorized religions in China are run by the government. For example, the Catholic church in China must agree to not recognize the Vatican as its overseer but the Communist Party. A few people do reject this and set up underground churches but this is punishable by death apparently. I suspect the Chan Buddhism in China is similar; however i cannot confirm this since my knowledge of this particular sect of Buddhism is limited. I suspect some monks did escape execution and stayed in China (since this has happened before in China), but how many came back to the temple? my opinion is no more than the number of fingers on my hand. I think the truth of the matter will probably be left for debate for a long time. --Blckavnger 19:41, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Five schools of Chan Buddhism

The traditional Chan "five houses" were Caodong (曹洞宗), Linji (臨濟宗), Guiyang (潙仰宗), Fayan (法眼宗), and Yunmen (雲門宗). This list does not include earlier schools such as the Hongzhou (洪州宗) of Mazu.

Does anyone know which Chan school/sect Shaolin belonged to? I realize that Shaolin was headed by Huineng well before the five schools existed, but this doesn't mean the school didn't lean in favor of one of the five schools centuries after his death. The reason I ask is that I'm trying to fill in the gaps in the Abbot lineage on the Zhou Tong (Shaolin Abbot) article. Zhou Tong was the adoptive father of General Yue Fei. If I can find out the school than maybe I can track done likely candidates which I will post on the discusssion page. (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 07:28, 25 August 2006 (UTC))

I've found several sites that say Shaolin belongs to the Caodong school. HERE is one. HERE is another. (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor!)

Shaolin-Do ?

i just wanted to hear the reasoning of including shaolin-do into this particular article. 1) if its added it should be placed at shaolin kung fu and not shaolin article 2) if we include this type of martial art whats to stop us from listing all the different arts regarding shaolin as their origin. 3) if we talk about martial arts why is this particular branch which has a very controversial connection to shaolin be included (even the name with "Do" does not sink well). also this style of "shaolin" is not that widespread since all its black belts seem to hail from kentucky. Personally i think this little paragraph should be removed. --Blckavnger 15:41, 1 December 2006 (UTC)