Talk:RTÉ

Name

According to RTÉ's website, its name is Radio Telifís Éireann, not Radió Telifís Éireann. I checked with someone I know in there and they said the same. It is perfectly possible that in correct gaelic it should be radió. However what is correct gaelic isn't always the version used. (As with the hideous Lána Bus nonsense!) Whatever about the correct language, the correct name has no fada on the 'o'. FearÉIREANN 19:22 5 Jun 2003 (UTC)

The "correct Gaelic" is, in any case, neither radio nor radió, but raidió. RTÉ, though does indeed stand for Radio Telefís Éireann. -- 81.132.170.159 23:46, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Shouldn't it be Telefís? Google prefers that 6,440 to 279. --Wik 21:20, Sep 8, 2003 (UTC)

I moved it now. Even searching only on rte.ie it is Telefís (94 to 2). --Wik 05:56, Nov 7, 2003 (UTC)

Recently re-raised at Talk:Irish words used in the English language. Djegan 00:24, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

It is a shame that there are so many incorrect spellings of the RTÉ name. I have added the correct spelling under the wrong version on this article, stating it to be in Donegal Ulster Irish, though I know that the correct spelling, RAIDIÓ TEILIFÍS ÉIREANN, is the spelling used in all Gaeilge Dialects throughout the country! I think what RTÉ may have done here is anglicised the name to a simplier form in the same was that Aer Lingus have anglicised their name from the correct version AER LOINGEAS which means Air Fleet.

--  RÓNÁN   "Caint / Talk"  03:10, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

I have requested a citation for "Raidió Teilifís Éireann" and one is required. The Annual Report 2006[1] and act of Oireachtas[2] use the version as per the article title, viz, "Radio Telefís Éireann". Citations please or uncited material maybe removed at any time, WP:VERIFY. Djegan 22:41, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

And what about an RTE announcer just the other night saying the word in the same way I was taught to pronounce "raidio" Garda40 22:57, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

The question here is not how we would spell the pronounciation (or indeed a specific pronounciation), but how we spell the name of the organisation. Not quite the same thing. Djegan 23:03, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

In any case can a citation be supplied for your belief? Remember folks thats what cuts it at wikipedia, not what "I was taught". Djegan 23:07, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

If folks want to keep a unofficial version of name then citations please to show it has validility. Not word games with what is required. Any resonable student of Irish knows the official name is not modern standardised spelling, but we are not here to provide alternative valid spellings as in a high school essay or five minute triva in Irish class, rather this is a professional encyclopedia. Citations please, uncited material maybe removed at any time. Djegan 06:24, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Djegan i am a big admirer of the work you have done on Wikipedia thus far and I understand why the proper Irish spelling of the RTÉ name is removed from the article, however may I propose that in the introduction to the article, should perhaps be read, somewhat like "Radio Telefís Éireann (Irish: Raidió Teilifís Éireann) (RTÉ; IPA: ['radʲo 'tʲɛlʲəfʲi:ʃ 'e:rʲən], ) is the Public Service Broadcaster of the Republic of Ireland. By doing so we can highlight the correct spelling of the name in Gaeilge. --  RÓNÁN   "Caint / Talk"  22:05, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

If we are to be given a spelling in the article other than that generally used (which can be cited as above in law and reports) then we must verify it. We must verify it not least because it is not generally used, but also because we must explain the significance of two spellings. Simply put I believe the only proper spelling is the article title as currently used, anything to the contray must be verified. Djegan 04:29, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

I understand what you are saying in terms of copyright and abuse of the RTÉ name, however looking at the airports, Belfast International Airport article for example, this has an Irish translation, not infringing the copyright of the company but highlighting the name of the company in Irish. This is also true for county names, placenames etc. RTÉ is spelt the way they have spelt it and this is not disputed but if you look at the Aer Lingus article, down the pace they state that the name comes from the Irish Aer Loingeas which does not need verified as it is common knowledge with Irish Speakers, could the same not be highlighted in the RTÉ article. --  RÓNÁN   "Caint / Talk"  23:08, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

My reason for removal is not because of copyright nor abuse of name. I removed the alternative name because I had doubt over its authority. We cannot fill out articles with alternative, ad-hoc, unofficial, but grammatically and spelling correct variations of names. If the alternative name is of such common knowledge a citation will be found. Because otherwise its not notable, and more to the point not verified. The reason why "Aer Loingeas" does not need to be verified is because no one has requested it to be verified, not because its common knowledge. When citations are requested for material then the citation must be forthcoming for the material to remain. Thats the rule. Djegan 13:14, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for your clarity on the matter, it just confuses me as to why RTÉ would not use the proper use of Irish in their trademark, yet have the proper name, for example Raidió in their broadcasting subsidiary, RTÉ Raidió na Gaeltachta. Hopefully someone from the organisation could clarify! --  RÓNÁN   "Caint / Talk"  15:21, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Remember its not just RTE that spell the name in non-standard Irish, the establishing act of the Oireachtas also spell it in non-standard Irish. Their must of been a clear rationale for such spelling, and the simple fact remains that the non-standard spelling is still the correct spelling. Djegan 16:52, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

To complicate this, the Broadcasting Bill published today will, when enacted change the name to "Radio Teilifís Éireann", changing Telefís but leaving Radio intact! --Rdd (talk) 18:56, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

It is important to emphasise that it is still a "bill" and not an "act" - and therefore is subject to amendment before becoming law. However once law we should take appropriate action. Djegan (talk) 22:41, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

According to today's Irish Times the spelling has been changed to Raidió Teilifís Éireann by the Broadcasting Act 2009. Can we move the article now? Ian Cheese (talk) 01:01, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

So much for using an act of Oireachtas to give us a correct spelling then .If they have made any spelling errors in this new act we might have to rename some articles eg "Broadcasting Compliant Commission" Garda40 (talk) 06:26, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

References

Announcements

What exactly does: "Seo Radio 2RN Baile Atha Cliath ag tastail" translate to (and how do you pronounce it)? Meanwhile, here are some other notable bits from RTE: "Radio Telefis Eireann, RTE anseo agaibh" (last bit pronounced "unshow agive", according to a pronounciation guide I'm reading now): "RTE, here at you" (how RTE opened its TV service in the B&W days) "Comhartha na Cheithre Bhosca", the Irish name for the 4 Boxes Logo: the guide convinces me that it reads "kowarha na khei-re wosca". No, I don't live in Ireland (never been there either). A visitor, 4:40pm (GMT +7) Oct 3, 2003

You're close alright. I'd pronounce "Radio Telefis Eireann, RTE anseo agaibh" as "raadio telifeesh air-an RTE anshoh agwiß" (where "ß" is the Castillian b/v sound, a voiced bilabial fricative) and "Comhartha na Cheithre Bhosca" as "koßawrha na kheh-re ßoska". --Kgaughan 00:10, 28 May 2005 (UTC)

Programming template

So is anyone going to do a write up on Frank Hall and his Pictorial Weekly? Surely that programme deserves a mention.

So does The Late Late Show --Occono 15:21, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Hall's Pictorial Weekly, The Late Late Show. --Kiand 16:39, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Oh right. Didn't see those in the article. Well what about The Panel, The Blizzard Of Odd? It should be noted Podge And Rodge's Nightmare at Bedtime was on the Paramount Comedy Channel a while ago. Oh, and there is a Dublin-Focused "City Channel" on Sky now.

• Done, not done, Podge and Rodge, and done. :) --Kiand 14:25, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Oh, and City Channel is no NTL not Sky. Channel 6 (Ireland) is going to be on Sky. --Kiand 14:26, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

You don't mention Hall's Pictorial Weekly or The Panel IN the article though. There should be a more comphrensive section on the history of the programming. And shouldn't this template be in the article? --Occono 14:24, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Eircom sponsorship

The source for the actual upholding of complaints about this issue: (Irish Times - eircom.net)

Another lovely addition to the Eircom - Comreg saga.

zoney ♣ talk 14:25, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Recent edits

Is it just me or this article look like its been re-written by someone from RTÉ recently - I don't think we should be using the "IBD" term for example - it is offical RTÉ terminology, but its used by no one except RTÉ employees. The entire article reads like a press release in parts now. I notice the editor also airbrushed RTÉ Radio Cork out of existance - maybe RTÉ doesn't like to admit that it has ever closed a station. --Rdd 22:03, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

No your right, it looks as if some anon did a major rewrite a couple of weeks ago, the only thing i would touch was in infobox, as i didnt want to mess with the rest of it, defering it to somone who is more knowledgabel. Left a not on the board, but nothing seems to have been done prior to yur edits. --Boothy443 | trácht ar 23:03, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

I agree, and it's a poorly-written press release at that. There are a couple of 'opinion as fact' statements, particularly in the 'News' section. RTE "provides the most comprehensive range of national and international news and current affairs programming in Ireland". Maybe, if "international" means "Northern Ireland" and "comprehensive" means "ad nauseum". How do BBC News and ITN "pose threats" to RTE? Really it should be rewritten to say "provide competition for viewership". In fact, I think I might do just that.Eugene lynch (talk) 12:46, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Licence Fee

I removed the section about the licence fee being an unnesscary tax, on the idea that i wasnt to comfortable with the wording of the addation and the accompaing website. To me it seemed little less then rant to set up for the website which is marked as a rant. Becides the website being a rant, it has basically no source background and in the introduction their is at least one bit of info that is incorrect, the CBC in Canada does not charge a fee, it nothing short of a opinion, RTE bashing. Here is the diff on the addation [3], any thoughts? --Boothy443 | trácht ar 03:49, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Looked like a rant to me, was going to revert it if I still felt so when sober in the morning. Then again, I expect we'll eventually see anti licence-fee rants on all licence fee funded national broadcasters pages, the BBC page is full of them... --Kiand 03:54, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Agree. ant_ie 07:35, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Was in fact a rant (as stated), but given it's an external link, why not leave it in to reflect lack of dialog on this important issue? You may not agree with the opinion but it is nonetheless valid and well researched: Direct funding to CBC amounts to a licencing fee, since mostly all households own a TV in Canada as in Ireland. I will reinsert the link. - Graham

Its a rant which has no context to the rest of the article. You add it again and its going to get removed again, simple as that. --Kiand 19:15, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

No context to the article? If THIS isn't a place to bring up this issue, where can one do so? What IS the proper forum if not here? Remove it again and I'll add it again, simple as that.

An encyclopedia article about an organisation is not the place to bitch about their employees pay packets, etc. Your own webspace is, and thats where you have it, but linking to it from here is irrelevant, spammy and pointless. The "correct forum" for it is somewhere else, its not here. --Kiand 19:19, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Agreed: I'll leave it out of the body of the article. But the whole point of the external link is to get people who are interested it 'related' ideas onto other pages appropriate to that viewpoint. You're deleting the link because you don't like the idea and because you want to control content, not because it contradicts the Wikipedian philosophy.

No, external links are to extend on the data within the article, not bring up "related topics" or rants about the topic.

I also notice you've missed the biggest problem with RTÉ these days in your rant, namely that theres no free way to get them in digital, which is a disgrace for a public service broadcaster. You seem to be latching on to overly populist issues where its easy to shove an opinion on to someone, such as Kenny's pay. --Kiand 19:28, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Also, theres another BIG problem. The television licence isn't RTÉ's. Its the states. The majority goes to RTÉ, but thats irrelevant. The link has no place in this article, maybe the article on Television licence might have -some- justification for it, but not here. --Kiand 19:31, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Also, read the WP:3RR before reverting again with 24 hours, because you'll get blocked if you do. --Kiand 19:33, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Look, if this thing is so strict as to shoot down a single link to an opinion article as reasonable as the one I propose, it's frankly useless.

It has no place in this article. As I said, go try your luck on Television licence. RTÉ don't levy the licence fee, the state do. RTÉ are also not the sole benefactors - TG4 are a seperate statutory corporation in law, and a certain proportion of licence fee funds are available for commercial broadcasters to show public service programming. Oh, and An Post take a cut. Hence this -is not- an article that that page is relevant to be placed on. --Kiand 19:49, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Look, Cian, the fact that the State levy the fee is semantics. In the minds of 99% of the people on this island, the TV licence is inextricably linked to the RTE service and you know it. Wikipedia should reflect the minds of 99% of people on this island: The first place an Irish person would go to look for info on the TV licence is "RTE" The main article states that RTE is a public service broadcaster and this is factually incorrect: It's a commercial broadcaster that has managed to hold on to an unnecessary subsidy because the insiders (like you I guess) keep stifling the debate.

Please read Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. Your link is not for this article. ant_ie 20:20, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

"insiders (like you" ?? I have nothing to do with RTÉ. And theres not been much to any debate to "stifle", because the majority of people here realise that the licence fee is not something that goes to RTÉ, despite what you may think. I barely watch the damn stations they provide, in fact of all the licence fee funded services, I watch more (imported) programming on TG4 than on any of the other channels. And that I only get without paying a third-party through relatively grainy UHF analogue, due to the atrocious transmission network this country has.

Your link does not maintain a neutral point of view, as ant_ie points out; and manages to whitewash over a number of issues. It may, may have a place in the television licence article but it has none here. Trying to claim that its being removed for any other reason is just pure desperation. --Kiand 20:29, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Relationship with TG4

Just something you wrote about tg4 (TnaG) is incorrect.

TnaG is an Irish language TV channel owned by the state (oireachtas). RTÉ, as the public service broadcaster, is obliged to provide tg4 with 1 hour of programming per day and a news service. It is based is Baile na hAbhann, Co Galway, and is NOT a part of RTÉ.

Obviously, tg4 don't produce mant more programmes than they receive from RTE. Most of the programmes shown during the kids' show are American; sometimnes dubbed in Irish but usually kept in English.

-Unsigned comment by 213.202.148.40 at 15:51 31 MAY 2006 on article page

TG4 will be transformed into an independent statutory body from the beginning of April in 2007 after Noel Dempsey announced it on 17 August 2006. [4]

- Comment by donal.hunt at 18:38 27 AUG 2006 on article page

-- Most all TG4 cartoons are re-dubbed into Irish, the refrain from dubbing live action programmes for their services. TG4 commission as much TV as the get from RTÉ possible double what they get. —Preceding unsigned comment added by IrishTV (talk • contribs) 15:59, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

TV3

What is RTÉ'S relationship with TV3? I don't think it owns it, but i'm not 100% sure. codu (^t/^c) 12:26, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

RTÉ is the State sponsored body providing television services on a License fee from the public. TV 3 is an independent commercial company and competitor to RTÉ. It relies on advertising revenue to generate profits rather than a license fee.

--  RÓNÁN   "Caint / Talk"  03:17, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

TV3 does partially rely on the RTE network (or rather that of its subsidary company RTENL) to transmit its signals. Other than that its an entirely seperate operation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.112.255.223 (talk) 12:26, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

TV3 pay RTÉNL for their services. TV3 have nothing to do with RTÉ. TV3 do get some funding from the BCI from the licence fee as do the BBC, RTÉ, TG4, Channel 4 ETC. —Preceding unsigned comment added by IrishTV (talk • contribs) 16:00, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Jimmy O'Dea

Some long time ago, maybe in the 70's, RTÉ made a short (maybe black and white) series of 15-minute sketches with Jimmy O'Dea and David Kelly as two railway employees in an old-fashioned junction box (sorry, I don't remember the name of the series--Help, Please). The sketches were masterpieces of Dublin humour; Kelly always addressed O'Dea as "Mister O," and each sketch ended with the duo making tea!

RTE, to its credit, has brought out DVD's of Hall's Pictorial Weekly and Wanderly Wagon. However, Jimmy O'Dea's contribution to Irish comedy is part of Ireland's--in particular, Dublin's-- cultural heritage. He was idolized by the people of Dublin, and may well have been Ireland's greatest, or at least best-loved, 20th century comedian. If anyone can remember more about the series, or persuade RTE to bring out DVD's, they will be doing a great service to that cultural heritage.--PeadarMaguidhir 11:54, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

RTÉ produced the series Your Man that ran in 1963-1964 written by Myles na gCopaleen featuring Jimmy O'Dea. ww2censor 17:45, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

See: talk page Bogger (talk) 15:15, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was No consensus. Count is fairly evenly split and both sides are making compelling arguments. Sure, there is BBC and MTV and NBC but there is also American Broadcasting Company and General Electric and Sport utility vehicle. Arguments on each side could also be made on the other. —Wknight94 (talk) 13:33, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Requested move

Radio Telefís Éireann → RTÉ — It seems that the "RTÉ" is simply a pseudo-acronym and should therefore, this page should be moved to that title. According to RTÉ's official website, I could not find the name "Radio Telefís Éireann" listed anywhere, including the company's "about" page.[5] —–Dream out loud (talk) 00:21, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.

• Strongly Oppose -- RTÉ is from "Radio Telefís Éireann" and indeed this maybe subject to change to the slightly different spelling of "Radio Teilifís Éireann" as proposed in the Broadcasting Bill 2008 (Section 113). In any case the current spelling of "Radio Telefís Éireann" is from the Broadcasting Authority (Amendment) Act, 1966 (Section 3)" as confirmed, before amendment, by the Broadcasting Bill 2008 (Section 113). Whilst "RTÉ" calls itself "RTÉ" most of the time, it has never declared that "Radio Telefís Éireann" is a pseudo-acronym, nor has anyone else - until now and here -- we as a community need to do research before proposing moves! This is a total non-runner. Djegan (talk) 00:36, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose -- I couldn't possibly support the reasoning out lined in the suggested move , however a argument based on WP:Common I might support Gnevin (talk) 10:37, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
• Strongly Oppose -- The "pseudo-acronym" suggestion is untenable, and the "most commonly used name" is also a red herring. RTÉ is an abbreviation of the proper name. The article should be under its proper name. -- Evertype·✆ 10:56, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose - although common name conventions are worth considering, for RTÉ, the full name is still legal, and still used some of the time. SeoR (talk) 17:23, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

• '"Oppose"' - The only reason you can't find the name on the RTÉ website is because this page's title is spelt incorrectly. As I have stated below, RTÉ stands for 'Raidió Teilifís Éireann'. I therefore intend to submit a seperate request for a rename when this discussion has closed.Stephen Shaw (talk) 22:01, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment - just so that you know any original research spelling will fail. So if you have not got an external verifiable spelling don't waste your time submitting a move. WP:VERIFY states "verifiability, not truth" and "Radio Telefís Éireann" can be verified. Djegan (talk) 22:10, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
    • Comment - Just so you know, as per the draft Foras na Gaeilge dictionary of Business terms, Raidió Teilifís Éireann [6] is the correct Irish language spelling of the name; It is not 'original research' on my part. I do however acknowledge that somehow the legislation of this country has allowed such a ridiculous spelling to slip through and become commonplace. As you (or may not) have gathered from my strikeouts, I have re-considered, as until the up-and-coming broadcasting legislation becomes law, this error will be 'verifiable'. Stephen Shaw (talk) 12:50, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
      • Comment I accept your viewpoint that the spelling is not a standard purist spelling (but that is not the same as saying its "wrong") and as mentioned WP:VERIFY official policy states "verifiability, not truth" (original emphasis) - and the "Radio Telefís Éireann" spelling is verifiable through a number of sources. It is also important to remember that if the Irish language is truly a living language then no one "owns" it or the spelling of any word, see for instance spelling reform (I am not claiming the spelling was "spelling reform" - but simply attempting to demonstrate that their is room for change and diversity in every living language). Djegan (talk) 13:09, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
      • Comment What's this business about 'own[ing]' spelling? I'm not sure I understand you. Anyway, the continuation of this conversation is pointless: I retracted! Stephen Shaw (talk) 15:42, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

I support the move to RTÉ on the basis that this is the Common Name. See BBC as an example of where this approach is used. However, I don't feel strongly either way.

Comment: On a separate point, by way of discussion – no argument here: I think the spelling question is quite interesting because in fact there appear to be three possible spellings out there:

• Radio Telefís Éireann - Broadcasting Authority (Amendment) Act, 1966 [The current legal name. Full stop.]
• Radio Teilifís Éireann - 2008 Bill – Note no “fada” on the “o” in Radio; and
• Raidió Teilifís Éireann – Foras na Gaeilge - Note the “fada” on the “ó” in Radio.

I suspect the Oireachtas in the 2008 Bill is attempting to rectify the spelling mistake in the 1966 Act. However, it may unwittingly be leaving in an outstanding error!! [I’m inclined to think it is an error – Foras na Gaeilge are probably right about the “fada” on the “ó” – It has always sounded like a long vowel to me – though I am not suggesting any edit here. Just noting this point]. Regards. Redking7 (talk) 21:02, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

• Support in speech and print RTÉ is almost always referred to only as RTÉ. Notice the official website front page makes no mention of Radio Telefís Éireann at all. Cf. BBC, ITV, NBC, and HBO. — AjaxSmack 01:09, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

• Support per nom and AjaxSmack. Nobody refers to the station as Radio Telefís Éireann any more. Anybody searching for it would type RTE or RTÉ

• Oppose - The full name is used, see first page of the annual report of 2006: [7]. Snappy56 (talk) 09:58, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Whomever you are, I think your citation makes a good case for RTÉ which is plastered all over every page of the report in large letters instead of Radio Telefís Éireann which appears in tiny print only as a header or at the bottom of the page. Wikipedia guidelines (WP:COMMONNAME) call for using the common name of subjects for titles and Radio Telefís Éireann ain't it. — AjaxSmack 09:14, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
    • That was me, forgot to sign my original post. The common name of the Central Intelligence Agency is the CIA, yet the article does not sit at CIA. Snappy56 (talk) 09:58, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
      • Well, the common name of the British Broadcasting Corporation is the BBC, and the article does sit at BBC so we can agree that other stuff exists. My point would be that, unlike with the CIA, use of RTÉ is far more common relative to its official name. — AjaxSmack 10:42, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Discussion

Any additional comments:

• Even if the title is not a pseudo-acronym, it still may be appropriate to move it to the acronym title because it is more commonly used (see WP:UCN). For example, Southeastern Pennsylvania Transportation Authority was moved to SEPTA, not because its title is a pseudo-acronym, but because it is much more common. –Dream out loud (talk) 04:39, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

• Similarly, British Home Stores was moved to Bhs. The reason being "The name "British Home Stores" feels very old-fashioned now, and is almost never used by younger people or in the media". Is there a standard convention? If this reason stands, then we should move to RTE and while we are at it move Allied Irish Banks to AIB. I'm not on one side or the other (just yet). I am asking if there is a policy? An argument against is that RTE has so many other meanings - such as rich text editor ClemMcGann (talk) 11:03, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
  • It appears that "British Home Stores" is no longer the legal name of Bhs, just a previous (legal) name. A search on Companies House UK only returns "British Home Stores" if "Previous names" is selected - so this is quite different to the Radio Telefís Éireann/RTÉ situation. Many companies over the years have decided to drop their "spelled-out" names and use abbreviations only, for instance BAA Limited is no longer British Airports Authority (but you will often hear British reporters incorrectly use the latter).
  • It is very important that we don't start to move a whole series of articles based on a false assumption. We should only move them on clear and defined principal. Djegan (talk) 11:18, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
    • Agreed - so please define the principal - is it the "legal name" from the companies office? ClemMcGann (talk) 17:34, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
      • Not sure if this is what you are asking - the legal name of Bhs is "BHS LIMITED" as registered with the Companies House in the United Kingdom, its previous name was "BRITISH HOME STORES PLC"[8]. Djegan (talk) 17:45, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
        • If so why is the wp article called Bhs rather than "BHS LIMITED" ? We need more than a "clear and defined principal", we need one followed! ClemMcGann (talk) 13:56, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
          • Maybe you should raise the issue at Talk:Bhs? Have a good discussion, by the way this maybe a good help as well. Djegan (talk) 14:04, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
            • Thanks - but 'no thanks'.
            • Wikipedia:Naming conventions:Generally, article naming should prefer what the greatest number of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature. ClemMcGann (talk) 11:03, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
      • My reference above to "clear and defined principal" is as follows -- the request move states that "It seems that the "RTÉ" is simply a pseudo-acronym..." -- however it is abundantly clear that "RTÉ" is not a pseudo-acronym as the name of the organisation is "Radio Telefís Éireann" as defined by law (my full references in my oppose comment above). The claim of it been a pseudo-acronym is very false assumption (though no doubt made in good faith) - principal is not based on false assumptions, certainly once proven to be false. Djegan (talk) 17:52, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

• • By the way do RTE still announce "Radio Telefís Éireann" on air or do they use the name of the station (e.g. RTE ONE, etc) before programmes? Djegan (talk) 11:21, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

• • Can I point out that 'Radio Telefís Éireann' is not even the correct spelling of the name. It is 'Raidió Teilifís Éireann' as per the Foras na Gaeilge terminology database.Stephen Shaw (talk) 21:56, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
    • This has been discussed previously and the legal name is "Radio Telefís Éireann" irrespective of the "correct" spelling. Foras na Gaeilge does not "own" the Irish language anymore than the Oxford Dictionary "owns" the English language. Remember what WP:VERIFY says "verifiability, not truth" (original emphasis) - and "Radio Telefís Éireann" can be supported by ample verifiability! Djegan (talk) 22:02, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
    • Incidentially where is this "Foras na Gaeilge terminology database"? Djegan (talk) 22:03, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
    • By the way the Broadcasting Bill 2008 proposes a new spelling, so if you don't like it start your letter writing to Foras na Gaeilge now. Djegan (talk) 22:05, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
• In two minds about this. Firstly, RTÉ is not a pseudo-acrynom, the name, "Radio Telefís Éireann" comes from the insertation of the word "Telefís" into the original corporate name, Radio Éireann. And Radio Telefís Éireann is the official name. (You won't find it at the CRO, RTÉ is not a company, it is a statutory corporation.) And to those who say the full name is never used, have you watched RTÉ One??? At least once a day (usually before the news) you will get the traditional announcement ("Radio Telefís Eireann, you're watching RTÉ One") which replaced the earlier version ("Radio Telefís Éireann, RTÉ seo agaibh"). But use of "RTÉ" for the article title is consistant with the move of British Broadcasting Corporation to BBC some time ago. Plus it needly avoids the spelling dispute... Rdd (talk) 11:43, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Their is only one proper spelling of the full name, and that is the spelling consistently used in annual reports and laws (which maybe subject to change) - and in general usage (sorry but in my experience its only absolute purists who hold on to the word-for-word dictionary look-up). Make no doubt about it. No one would be absurd enough to suggest that McDonald's should be MacDonald's, or that Microsoft should be Micro Soft, or that Kingspan should be King Span. A corporate name does not have to be taken word-for-word from a dictionary of spelling and grammer - whatever language it is. Djegan (talk) 12:03, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Infobox

Thisis the list of "key people" in the info box:

"Key people Mary Finan, Chairperson Paddy Marron, Chairman of the Audit Sub-Committee, Maria Killian, Chairperson of the Programme Sub-Committee Cathal Goan, Director-General Conor Hayes, Chief Financial Officer Bride Rosney, Director of Communications Ed Mulhall, Managing Director, RTÉ News Noel Curran, Managing Director, RTÉ Television Adrian Moynes, Managing Director, RTÉ Radio"

Is that not a bit long!? Suggest we cut it down to the Chairperson. Regards. Redking7 (talk) 20:35, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. Looks like the whole senior management team. Djegan (talk) 14:36, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

We could include the Director-General (and Chairperson)? Djegan (talk) 14:39, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. I just think it should be cut down. One or two top people are fine in my view. Regards. Redking7 (talk) 00:17, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Images edit war

Please cease edit waring over the non-free station ident images. As those of you involved know, the only way to achieve consensus is by discussion. My apologies if you are already discussing it elsewhere: if so please post a link to that discussion. --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 10:57, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Not exactly a discussion of these images but I have mentioned them there in relation to the other editor [9] .Garda40 (talk) 11:58, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Arrangement of article

I've been doing some homework...and the layout of the article seems quite haphazard and while the content is excellent perhaps there could be a more coherent structure to reflect the activities of the organisation.

RTE

• Authority

• Executive

IBD

• Television
  • RTE One
  • RTE Two
  • RTE News Now
  • RTE HD
  • RTE Three
  • RTE +1
  • RTE International
• Radio
  • RTE Radio 1
  • RTE 2fm
  • RTE Lyric
  • RTE Raidio na Gaeltachta
  • RTE Radio 1 extra
  • RTE 2XM
  • RTE Choice
  • RTE Digital Radio News
  • RTE Junior
  • RTE Gold
  • RTE Pulse
  • RTE Chill
• News and Current Affairs
• Publishing
  • rte.ie
  • RTE Guide
  • RTE Aertel
• Performing Groups
  • RTE National Symphony Orchestra
  • RTE Concert Orchestra
  • RTE Vanburgh Quartet
  • RTE Philharmonic Choir
  • RTE Cór na nÓg
• RTE NL

• Group Shared Services

This is a rough break down of how RTE operates. Does anyone else think this might be a more productive, accurate reflection of the organisation?howth575 (talk) 20:11, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Would definately be an improvement, coupled with your proposed split of the articles about Radio and TV - I'd go for it. Sulmac (talk) 13:28, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Hisory

is there any particular reason the 'future' section is in the history section??? howth575 (talk) 03:13, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Split

Some sections of the article are very long and would perhaps benefit from being split into seperate articles with more condensed versions placed here? I'm thinking particularly the Television section and perhaps the radio section.howth575 (talk) 22:36, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Organisation

There is plenty of scope to improve this section of the article. Details of the mandate of the organisation, the members etc... howth575 (talk) 14:19, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with Image:Gaybyrnelate.jpg

The image Image:Gaybyrnelate.jpg is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check

• That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
• That this article is linked to from the image description page.

The following images also have this problem:

• File:Ch045 0828 210448.jpg
• File:Bosco.jpg
• Image:Tubridyrte.jpg
• Image:Sundaygame logo.gif
• Image:RTÉ Aertel.PNG
• Image:RTE2FM.gif

This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. --00:13, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Lede

The lede is misleading. It says RTE "is the Public Service Broadcaster of Ireland", yet this is true only of the Republic of Ireland (BBC is the public service broadcaster of Northern Ireland). "Ireland" actually links to "Republic of Ireland", but this link is disguised by piping. The disguise should be removed so that readers are clear about the remit of RTE. Mooretwin (talk) 21:19, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

If there are no objections, I shall edit the lead accordingly. Mooretwin (talk) 23:28, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Ignoring the other RTE talk page are you?MITH 23:30, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

What other RTE talk page? Mooretwin (talk) 23:30, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

I don't know. Why don't you tell me?MITH 23:33, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Clearly you do know, otherwise you wouldn't have mentioned it or been able to link to it. No - I'm not ignoring it: I didn't have it on my watchlist, but thanks for reminding me. Mooretwin (talk) 23:36, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Insertion of Images

Garda 40,

The images I contributed are both relevant and in the proper context. On reflection I will however delete the picture of the meeting which could be identified with another subject.Thank you for bringing this to my attention.

I also have seen that you, without comment or justification, have deleted a reference to a Senate Debate during the week which was followed by an excellent commentary in the Sunday Independent newspaper. Wiki users should,for the sake of compleness,see the sentence that I inserted.

Skreen (talk) 19:12, 5 July 2009 (UTC) Skreen (talk) 19:21, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

We should be cautious the use of images. The images that are been used risk making the article look like it had a "smack" of clipart to say the least (much of it has a Microsoft PowerPoint look). In particular generic images should not be used; those that are used should be both relevant and specific and tie in directly with RTE, they should not look as if they came from a commercial collection of generic images. Djegan (talk) 20:33, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Anyone else think the clip art of a camera and the "sssh" has no place on a Wikipedia article???? Rdd (talk) 19:53, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

I honestly think both the clip art and the sssh should be removed. I am removing those two images now. Feel free to restore them if anyone feels they are of any significance.  Cargoking  talk  16:23, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Article Move to Raidió Teilifís Éireann

I propose to move this article from it's current title to RTE's new official name of "Raidió Teilifís Éireann" as reported in various newspapers such as The Irish Times, The Independent, and Times Online. Just wanted to see if there were any objections first... --HighKing (talk) 09:21, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

• Yes, according to the Broadcasting Act 2009, which was signed into law last week, RTÉ's new name is indeed "Raidió Teilifís Éireann". This move should take place ASAP. Stephen Shaw (talk) 11:43, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
• Yes. That means we need a bot or a volunteer (hint, hint) to change all links to RTÉ.  Cargoking  talk  11:49, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
  • More than 5000 pages link to RTÉ. We defiantly need a bot or a taskforce of about 10 people. This though does not lessen the significance of changing the name.  Cargoking  talk  12:31, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

No way should this task have been placed in the "hands" of a bot. There was no such thing as Raidió Teilifís Éireann before 12 July 2009, and any reference to the Irish state broadcaster before that date should say Radio Telefís Éireann. The current batch edits are, in the vast majority of cases, inappropriate. All that was needed was a redirect (which was automatically made by the renaming of the article anyway). We now have thousands of articles with anachronistic names. Proposals for how we get out of this mess please! Kevin McE (talk) 08:08, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

There was no such thing as Raidió Teilifís Éireann before 12 July 2009

Yes there was .As the news reports point out it is the correction of an grammatical error when writing it down.As I mentioned before they have pronounced it correctly as Raidió when saying the title in full 'Garda40 (talk) 09:48, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Not in writing there wasn't, and an encyclopaedia is a written source. It is no more true to say that a programme was broadcast on Raidió Teilifís Éireann in 2008 than it is to say that Ballydehob was in the Republic of Ireland in 1901. (no particular reason for that village or date) Kevin McE (talk) 13:13, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

The fact that an encyclopaedia is a written source has no relevant on whether the information you put in it comes from audio,visual or written sources. Garda40 (talk) 19:54, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

WP:RS assumes written sources: where the issue of debate is spelling, as it is here, only written sources can be unambiguous. Kevin McE (talk) 07:24, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Which is a different claim from your 'encyclopaedia is a written source' claim .Garda40 (talk) 14:43, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Yes, it is a different statement, but it seems odd to describe it as a claim. Are you seriously disputing that this encyclopaedia is a text based project??? Kevin McE (talk) 15:50, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm not trying to dispute anything about Wikipedia but if you meant WP:RS about spelling of something why did you bring up the non sequitur about Wikipedia being a text based project .Garda40 (talk) 19:43, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Wrong! Who is to say if a corporation name is good grammer or not? It is up to the creator of the organisation (in this case the Oireachtas) to decide the name (and style of presentation) of the corporation. ACCBank, Intel, Microsoft - who's right is it to say that because they are not in a dictionary then they are wrong? All this talk of "grammatically incorrect" is academic slavery at best by someone who cannot see beyond a standardised spelling dictionary. A living language changes; a living language is diverse; a living language cannot live by a set of rules. Chances are anyway that the Irish words for radio and television were "gaelicised" anyway from the English language - so it is all "purer than pure" non-sense by Éamon Ó Cuív and Patrick Pearse types anyway

Establishment and name in the article gives the facts without all this retrospective "incorrect grammer" that was obviously put out by RTÉ Press Office and lapped up by newspapers wanting a sad story that does not include the economy for a change. Djegan (talk) 15:52, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

You forgot a living language can be misspelt. Garda40 (talk) 19:54, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

And you seem to ignore the idea that authoritative sources are authoritative. Unless you can provide multiple reliable sources to demonstrate that the full name of this broadcaster, in English, was spelled Raidió Teilifís Éireann before this month, then your claim seems to have no evidence. Kevin McE (talk) 07:24, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm no more ignoring the idea that authoritative sources are authoritative than you since you seem to be ignoring the fact that authoritative sources such as The Irish Times, The Independent, and Times Online all claim it was misspelt before this month .Garda40 (talk) 14:43, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Those newspapers might be qualified to say how words should have been spelled: they do not have authority to decide what letters in what order a legal entity uses as its name. Debating whether Doherty or Docherty is a better Anglicisation of Ó Dochartaigh does not change the names of Tommy Doherty or of Tommy Docherty, and debating what was a good rendition of a desired pronunciation of an Irish language approximation to English words of Latin and Greek derivation does not change the fact of the legal name used in English communications by RTÉ until earlier this month. Therefore any reference to that broadcaster, that uses its name in full, in an English encyclopaedia, pertaining to events before the change in name that took place this month, should refer to Radio Telefís Éireann. One can say that Michael O'Hehir was a commentator on Radio Telefís Éireann: one cannot say that he was a commentator on Raidió Teilifís Éireann, however orthographically desirable that might be, because that was not the way that that organisation spelled its name in English text during his life. In reality, there are probably very few articles in which the broadcaster was not referred to by its initials instead, and so I will have overstated the number of articles where an anachronistic name had been displayed. Kevin McE (talk) 15:48, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

The Oireachtas has the authority to decide what letters in what order a legal entity uses as its name and in this case they decided that they had used them in the wrong order before this month , a fact that they communicated to those newspapers .

One can say that Michael O'Hehir was a commentator on Radio Telefís Éireann .It would be valid to add after that statement that by an act of the Oireachtas in 2009 it was decided that the spelling was wrong at that time .Garda40 (talk) 19:43, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

• I believe we should move it, but make sure we have the correct spelling (including accents - the "fada"). At least two of those articles don't use accents. Anyone know where we can get the text of the act? Djegan (talk) 16:38, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
• Support move to "Raidió Teilifís Éireann" the new name. Regards. Redking7 (talk) 17:50, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

• The organisation is not known as Raidió Teilifís Éireann or Radio Telefís Éireann, it is known as RTÉ, and as per WP:COMMONNAME then main article should be at RTÉ. Snappy (talk) 01:15, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Broadcasting Act 2009

Because of the changes the broadcasting act introduces this article will require some changes (the name change has been done). Most notably the RTÉ Authority will become the RTÉ Board; I assume some regulatory powers would be tranferred to the proposed "Broadcasting Authority of Ireland". It is not easy to get (confirmed) details but this would be a start. It does not give the text of the act, but rather the text of the bill which is 181 pages long.

As the article is 38 kilobytes long (32 is often considered the optimum) it could be an opportunity to split some of the material off; there is also a more than healthy "splattering" of images. Time for a cull? Djegan (talk) 17:25, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Unusally the Broadcasting Act 2009 did not contain the usual commencement-delaying provision therefore all its provisions other than those relating to the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland commence straight away (including the aforementment renaming of RTÉ). The Minister still needs to by order appoint a day to be, er, "the appointed day" for the purposes of the establishment of the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland and until that happens the BCI and BCC both continue. The Minister will only make the relevant SI once both bodies are ready to merge (new logo, letterheads ready, etc) and once he is ready to appoint the Board of the new authority so I imagine it could still be a couple of weeks (if not months) before the Act becomes fully operational. Rdd (talk) 19:36, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Article move to RTÉ

Why the full title? Why not follow international examples such as the British Broadcasting Corporation (BBC) and Cable News Network (CNN)? The previous change (and hopefully any future changes) would not have been needed if this had been carried out before. I don't know if there are many RTEs but surely there aren't that many RTÉs out there? There are other examples of RTÉ related articles, i.e. RTÉ Guide (not Raidió Teilifís Éireann Guide), RTÉ player (not Raidió Teilifís Éireann player) and RTÉ Radio (not Raidió Teilifís Éireann Radio) so this is in use elsewhere but not the main article? And, although perhaps not particularly significant, it would be several letters less to type each time anyone uses the term. See also, WP:COMMONNAME. --candle•wicke 19:06, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

That would make a lot of sense. Support. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 19:24, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Also, comparing the header above the infobox, CNN has "Cable News Network" above "CNN" logo, BBC has "British Broadcasting Corporation" above "BBC" logo, RTÉ has "Raidió Teilifís Éireann (RTÉ)" above "RTÉ" logo. Isn't "Raidió Teilifís Éireann" sufficient when the logo states RTÉ? --candle•wicke 19:33, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

• Support article move, and also dropping '(RTÉ)' from the infobox. Scolaire (talk) 19:58, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
• Oppose. 1.) This is a company. 2.) This is a trademark. 3.) Acronyms can redirect to the full title, even if "RTÉ" may be the more common name. 4.) International examples are to use the name, not the acronym, see Category:European Broadcasting Union members. 5.) If it is not "Raidió Teilifís Éireann", then, on the basis of WP:COMMONNAME, it is "RTE" not "RTÉ" (i.e. no fada), which is hideous. 6.) There is no need for a move, people can find this page just fine by a) following a link, b) searching for "RTE", "RTÉ", "Radio Telefis Éireann", "Raidió Teilifís Éireann" or any number of cobinations of fadas or no fadas, c) searching Google or d) something else. (Specifically regarding RTÉ Guide and RTÉ player, those are the trademark names, just like Raidió Teilifís Éireann.) --rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid (coṁrá) 00:48, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
  • But is the hideous link contradicting itself? Category:European Broadcasting Union members shows more examples like RTÉ, such as ARD (broadcaster) (not - thankfully - Arbeitsgemeinschaft der öffentlich-rechtlichen Rundfunkanstalten der Bundesrepublik Deutschland), JRTV (not Jordan Radio and Television), RTVE (not Corporación Radiotelevisión Española), RÚV (neither Ríkisútvarpið nor The Icelandic National Broadcasting Service), ERTU (neither Egyptian Radio and Television Union nor Ittihādu l-Idhā‘ah wa al-Tilīfizyūn al-Miṣrī), YLE (neither the Finnish Broadcasting Company nor Yleisradio), ZDF (not Zweites Deutsches Fernsehen). --candle•wicke 14:13, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

The "hideous link" is merely honest. I think you are suffering from selective blindness in your reading of Category:European Broadcasting Union members e.g. Télé Monte Carlo, Radio Television of Serbia, Entreprise nationale de Radiodiffusion sonore and so on. Ask yourself why you are being so selective? And then consider whether you should link to WP:IDONTLIKEIT too. --rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid (coṁrá) 18:42, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Initials such as TMC and RTS produce lists which can hardly be compared to RTÉ though? WP:IDONTLIKEIT doesn't come into what I argued above (apart from maybe the bit about typing less letters but that wasn't important). But is it also possible to say it is selective to use the category when a template such as Template:European Broadcasting Union Members also exists? --candle•wicke 19:59, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Category:European Broadcasting Union members show the titles of the relevant pages (i.e. what is being discussed here); Template:European Broadcasting Union Members does not. SRG SSR, SMRTV, BHRT, etc. don't disambiguation but redirect to the full name like RTÉ. So, yes, I think you are being selective in what you choose to see/not see. --rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid (coṁrá) 22:04, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

The SRG SSR idée suisse example is that right down to the logo though. I am not sure the titles of Wikipedia's other articles can be used as a reason for this one not to be called RTÉ. Just now, as I was browsing through some current events related items, I located this example which uses LBC - despite the article here being called Lebanese Broadcasting Corporation. That may be an issue for LBC itself but it offers some evidence that not all Wikipedia articles may be titled in this way even though they could be. Perhaps examples such as the BBC and CNN are more recognisable internationally and attract greater attention than some of those with longer titles (like the San Marino example you offer as well as the Bosnia and Herzegovina one - it's population is less than that of Ireland) but, if RTÉ can follow suit, why not? I don't understand the argument that RTÉ should follow the examples of countries with smaller populations or where English may not be the first language (I am not saying they are any less but that the English language Wikipedia tends to attract greater numbers of editors who can speak English so I hope that is not misunderstood, does not offend anyone or gets lost in translation). --candle•wicke 22:44, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

• "I am not sure the titles of Wikipedia's other articles can be used as a reason for this one not to be called RTÉ." That directly contradicts your primary argument at the top of this section ("Why not follow international examples...")
• "I don't understand the argument that RTÉ should follow the examples of countries with smaller populations..." Where did you read that argument? Have you read this article?
• "...or where English may not be the first language..." Cén teanga í, Raidió Teilifís Éireann? (Not that it matters.)

Anyway, answer me this, why "RTÉ" and not "RTE"? Surely the non-fada'ed version is the more common - and easier for people to type? Or is the only reason for a move, just to the page at an acronym? --rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid (coṁrá) 20:36, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

The RTÉ/RTE bit is the strawman of this exchange. Where have I suggested it should not be RTE (if RTE is determined to be the common name)? The examples you provide are from countries such as Bosnia and Herzegovina and San Marino. I have nothing against either of these countries but I don't believe their broadcasters have quite the same international profile as those in the UK and US (my examples from the beginning). Even Germany uses the shortened version. It is not intended as an argument to trample on the Irish language (the article would remain the same and RTÉ still retains part of it) so, if this is what anyone is thinking, please don't take it that way. --candle•wicke 00:38, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

• "Where have I suggested it should not be RTE" The title of this sections (which you wrote) is, "Article move to RTÉ". In your introduction to the section you wrote, "I don't know if there are many RTEs but surely there aren't that many RTÉs out there?" (your emphasis).
• "I have nothing against either of these countries but I don't believe their broadcasters have quite the same international profile as those in the UK and US (my examples from the beginning)." RTÉ is based in Ireland, not in the UK or US, and does not have a major international profile. It's not a slight against a broadcaster, or a mark of achievement, to be abbreviated. BSkyB, which is normally abbreviated, redirects to British Sky Broadcasting even though it is major UK broadcaster and has a high international profile. --rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid (coṁrá) 17:32, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

• Support, for all the reasons laid out above.--Yumegusa (talk) 07:59, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
• Comment. RTÉ is still referred to as "Raidió Teilifís Éireann", more often than BBC. RTÉ announce on the top of their news bulletins, (and others): Raidió Teilifís Éireann. Now on One is Six One. BBC never say "British Broadcasting Corporation, this is the News at Ten with Huw Edwards." I don't support Candlewicke's point of Raidió Teilifís Éireann Guide etc. That is what the extended name is, but otherwise irrelevant. I oppose a move, even though I apparently came up with this move on Candlewicke's talk page. (See the last move discussion)  Cargoking  talk  09:29, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
  • But if the news refers to it by the full title why do all the news articles use RTÉ as well? Examples, RTÉ News and Current Affairs, RTÉ News: Six One, RTÉ News: Nine O'Clock. None refer to it as Raidió Teilifís Éireann. All logos, infoboxes, etc use the shortened version and don't even mention the full title. The logo in the main article also uses the abbreviation. I accept that it may be known as Raidió Teilifís Éireann in some circumstances but if it is commonly called and recognised as RTÉ why isn't that the title? --candle•wicke 14:26, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
• Oppose The station uses its full name a lot. The BBC does not and has not done for decades. So it is correct in this case to use the full name the station itself uses. If an article was on RTE One or RTE Radio 1 or whatever the acronym would make sense. But the station when referring to itself overall uses its name and its acronym interchangeably in the way most stations don't. FearÉIREANN\^(caint) 12:52, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
• Oppose. The formal name (even though not in standard Irish spelling) is Raidió Telefis Éireann (not Teilifís) and that should be the article name. -- Evertype·✆ 13:28, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
• Oppose move as abbreviation is not universally known (neither is the name, for that matter). Djegan (talk) 22:47, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
  • That comment is completely meaningless. Nothing is "universally known". 'RTE' is more commonly known (and very much more commonly correctly spelt) than Raidió Teilifís Éireann, fadas or no.--Yumegusa (talk) 23:46, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
• Comment: While RTÉ's legal name (since last month) is Raidió Teilifís Éireann, RTÉ One's name is just that - RTÉ One, not "Raidió Teilifís Éireann One". Ditto for any other channel or subsidary (eg. RTÉ Commercial Enterprises Limited is registered at the CRO under that name, not "Raidió Teilfís Éireann Commercial Enterprises Limited" . WP:COMMONNAME would seem to mandate we call the article RTE (and not RTÉ, since there is nobody I know - including people in RTÉ, who spell it out "R - T - E - Fada". There would be a better argument for the full name if there was something to distingish it from, fortuitiously the Spanish were nice enough to make sure Radiotelevisión Española abbriviated to RTVE rather than RTE. Rdd (talk) 11:41, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

I spell it out "R T E-fada". :-) -- Evertype·✆ 17:56, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

• Support move. Interestingly, RTÉ management said that the time and cost of changing to the revised Irish spelling would be minimal, since they hardly use (internally or externally) the full Irish name at all nowadays. Snappy (talk) 10:20, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
• Support move. Wikipedia's naming conventions are not in any case based on a concept of "legal name" so all the arguments claiming that are red herrings. Go By what it is best known as in English, according to our rules, whether that is RTÉ or RTE. Gene Nygaard (talk) 01:26, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Raidió Teilifís Éireann Commercial Enterprises Ltd

Raidió Teilifís Éireann Commercial Enterprises Ltd I have added this to wiki anyone have futher info? IrishTV (talk) 23:58, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

The name of the company is simply RTÉ Commercial Enterprises Limited, see www.cro.ie . Nowadays it trades as RTÉ Publishing though the former is still the legal name Rdd (talk) 13:29, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

Project 2025

Proposed plans for redevelopment of the Donnybrook complex: "Project 2025".  Cargoking  talk  18:23, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

IMOS and opening sentence

The opening sentence of this article reads: "Raidió Teilifís Éireann ... is the public service broadcaster of Ireland". With reference to the manual of style for Ireland-related topics (IMOS), it is proposed that this be changed to read "... is the public service broadcaster of the Republic of Ireland".

IMOS states that, where confusion may arise, Republic of Ireland should be used rather than Ireland.

Confusion may arise because:

• the article says it is the public service broadcaster of Ireland
• RTE is the public service broadcaster not of the whole of Ireland, but only of the Republic of Ireland (the BBC is the public service broadcaster for Northern Ireland)
• it may appear to readers therefore that RTE is the public service broadcaster for the whole island.

After discussion, a similar issue was resolved here in favour of applying the IMOS guideline and using Republic of Ireland rather than Ireland. Mooretwin (talk) 12:14, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

I agree, it should be Republic of Ireland as just using Ireland is misleading to those not familiar with the Island and it's 2 separate states. The C of E. God Save The Queen! (talk) 12:39, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

I'm easy - a vote (although this isn't a vote blah de blah :p) for "either is ok" - both convey the meaning perfectly well to me and I have no preference one way or another. There are probably plenty like me so speaking up for them! 86.178.52.148 (talk) 18:55, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

Remove the 'pipelink'. GoodDay (talk) 19:20, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

Is that directed at me? 86.178.52.148 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 19:36, 13 January 2011 (UTC).

Mooretwin. GoodDay (talk) 19:38, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

• I really don't see where the 'confusion' arises. Islands don't have public service broadcasters any more than they have police forces or any other social or governmental institutions. In this context, "national" clearly refers to the state. RashersTierney (talk) 21:19, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

Prince Edward Island, Hawaii, Greenland etc, may beg to differ. GoodDay (talk) 21:58, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

Prince Edward Island a Canadian province - Hawaii the newest of the 50 U.S. states - Greenland an autonomous country within the Kingdom of Denmark. Q.E.D. RashersTierney (talk) 23:04, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

They're still islands though. You said Islands, you didn't elaborate any further. GoodDay (talk) 00:08, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

That's right GD, islands. RashersTierney (talk) 00:13, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

Just to give you a heads up that the start may need to be reworded in 2012 when RTE will be transmitting to the whole Island on the new Mux that is to be set up in Northern Ireland for RTE and TG4 .Garda40 (talk) 08:53, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

I agree, in this case Republic of Ireland should be used. Also, as I've said before, it's wrong to use national in place of state. A nation and a sovereign state are different things. ~Asarlaí 11:43, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

Your statement that state rather than national should be used in this case is one I heartily agree with. RTE is in a unique position in its relationship with the state. Dooley can I think be relied on to have chosen his words with care when he describes RTÉ as 'the' state-owned and controlled broadcasting service. The status of RTÉ as the 'state/national' broadcaster is not dependent on the reach or limit of its 'transmissions' (radio, internet, satellite) but on its special legal relationship with the state. It should also I think be linked in the lead that RTÉ is a semi-state body RashersTierney (talk) 15:01, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

I dispute that Mooretwin (talk · contribs)'s interpretation of WP:IMOS is a reasonable one. The reference to confusion is quite limited to the situation where RoI and NI are used or referred to in the same piece. They are not so, in the context of RTE, therefore the confusion does not arise. Please re-read IMOS carefully. Fmph (talk) 17:03, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

It's clearly not limited to that which you describe. IMOS says used Ireland "except where the island of Ireland or Northern Ireland is being discussed in the same context OR where confusion may arise. In such circumstances use Republic of Ireland". Mooretwin (talk) 22:41, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

I agree with Asarlai's comment and Mooretwin's proposal. Mabuska ^(talk) 18:24, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

Though we could always just reword it: "Raidió Teilifís Éireann[4] (Irish pronunciation: [ˈradʲo ˈtʲɛlʲəfʲiːʃ ˈeːrʲən] ( listen); English: Radio [and] Television of Ireland; abbreviated as RTÉ) is a public service broadcaster in Ireland.". That way we can say its referring to the island as it can be picked up in both the Republic and Northern Ireland, however by saying "is a public service broadcaster" means we aren't saying that it is "the" public service broadcaster of it and thus aren't hinting that its the public service broadcaster of NI. Just an idea. Mabuska ^(talk) 18:29, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

Actually i don't think it makes much difference rewording it. Mabuska ^(talk) 18:31, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

This is one of those examples where I utterly fail to see why someone might be "confused". Only a state can have a state/national broadcaster. Please state a case for why someone might confuse "state broadcaster" with the island. --HighKing (talk) 18:49, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

Not everyone knows the state and island don't correspond. Ever been to America? Mooretwin (talk) 22:39, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

We shouldn't assume all readers can look at Ireland in an article & quickly know which it is, republic or the island. GoodDay (talk) 00:02, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

Could you clarify what you mean by checking your punctuation - I assume the comma after "assume" superfluous? Mooretwin (talk) 00:16, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

Really? Surely if that were true, the MOS would say something like "Disambiguate at all times, lest anyone ever gets confused". It doesn't, so i think its safe to say that most readers can safely make the distinction, even if it requires they hover their mouse over, or click on, a dab link. Fmph (talk) 09:46, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

Most readers can safely? Very funny lol. RTE is not the national broadcaster of Ireland, it is the national broadcaster of the Republic. Anyways a national broadcaster doesn't have to equate to a state depending on tyour interpretation of the word "national". Mabuska ^(talk) 11:59, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

We must not assume this of most readers & our primary concern is for all readers. GoodDay (talk) 12:55, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

RTÉ is the national broadcaster of Ireland =) & we don't have to write for all readers, for the people who don't understand that semi-state bodies aren't over geographic areas there's always this variation (which handly already mentions the Republic) Dave (talk) 21:36, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

I was asked by Mooretwin, with RashersTierney'a acquiescence, to judge consensus from this discussion as an uninvolved admin. (I also assessed a similar discussion on articles related to Irish football league system). As Mooretwin states, on the face of it, this issue is very similar to the previous discussion. His position—that a significant potential for confusion exists—is supported by CofE.GSTQ, Asarlaí and Mabuska. However, a similar number of editors (Rashers, Fmph, HighKing, and to some extent, Dave) broadly suggest that this differs from the previous discussion because, by definition, only a state can have a state/national broadcaster. I'm not sure I'm entirely convinced by this argument (significantly, the opening sentence does not currently describe RTE is a state/national broadcaster!) but there is sufficient reasonable editors voicing support as to give it due weight.

Therefore at this time, I believe there is no consensus to make the specific change proposed by Mooretwin (though the fact that a number of edits consider it confusion suggests there is no consensus to keep the article as it is either). I would suggest either the editors here work together to find another way of wording the opening sentence, to address the perceived ambiguity. Alternatively, open this this discussion out to uninvolved opinions (since its only true outsiders, with no real understanding of Ireland and its ambiguities, that can assess quite how likely this confusion is). I'm happy to come back and have another look after further discussion, if need be. Rockpocket 21:31, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

What's the best way to open it out? Mooretwin (talk) 21:39, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Probably a Request for comment. However, I really think there should be way of phrasing the lead that everyone is happy with. That would seem to be the best course of action. I have a suggestion. How about something like:

Raidió Teilifís Éireann is the state broadcaster of Ireland. Its is one of two public service broadcasters on the island of Ireland (the other being the BBC, which serves Northern Ireland). It both produces programmes and broadcasts them on television, radio and the Internet...

Rockpocket 21:58, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

My reaction to the proposal is that it just highlights how silly it is to be using Ireland in this context: state broadcaster of Ireland ... one of two public broadcasters in Ireland. Causes further confusion - prompts the reader to wonder what's the difference between a state broadcaster and a public broadcaster. At least, the proposal should use "state broadcaster" twice. The simple use of "Republic of Ireland", however, gets rid of any confusion immediately - yet it is vetoed for (presumably) ideological or chauvinistic reasons. Crazy. Mooretwin (talk) 23:21, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Whilst Rockpocket's suggestion does sound good, the wording means that the IMoS comes directly into play with no grounds for arguement meaning we have to use Republic of Ireland - your talking about Ireland the state and Ireland the island in the same context even though you state "state" and "island", but the ambiguity still remains as pointed out Mooretwin about whats the difference to a reader in the "state" and "public" boradcaster. Mabuska ^(talk) 23:27, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

I am sure the proposed revision is well intentioned, but other than introducing a 'factoid' of limited value in the lead, I'm not sure how reference to broadcasters on the island tells the reader very much about the company. As pointed out, in fact it introduces a possible ambiguity. The jurisdiction within which RTÉ was established and operates should be made crystal clear. As an example, UTV is received in 'the south', but the lead in that article makes clear the state-based nature of the enterprise, as is only correct with any licenced project. As to 'ideology and chauvinism', the less said the better, unless such an insinuation should be made again. RashersTierney (talk) 13:33, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

"The jurisdiction within which RTÉ was established and operates should be made crystal clear." The only way to make it crystal clear is to state "Republic of Ireland". Mooretwin (talk) 14:52, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Except, as you well know, that is not the name of the state and is why the section of IMOS dealing with how to refer to the state is so formulated. If you wish for IMOS to be changed you can make your case there. This is about its application 'as is'. RashersTierney (talk) 14:58, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

It's the preferred name for disambiguation purposes on Wikipedia, as per IMOS (where confusion may arise, use Republic of Ireland)! ... If you wish for IMOS to be changed, you can make your case there. Mooretwin (talk) 15:45, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

How about ..

Raidió Teilifís Éireann' (Irish pronunciation: [ˈradʲo ˈtʲɛlʲəfʲiːʃ ˈeːrʲən] ; Template:Lang-en; abbreviated as RTÉ) is the public service broadcaster of Ireland, although most of it's broadcasts can also be received in Northern Ireland.

Fmph (talk) 15:50, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Under that format, IMOS is clear that Republic of Ireland should be used. Wouldn't that be a lot simpler? Mooretwin (talk) 10:25, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

Stating Ireland and Northern Ireland would lead to cofusion for some editors. Ireland is used better alongside United Kingdom. Mabuska ^(talk) 11:25, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

It might (although I doubt it) lead to some confusion amongst some editors, but it's not the editors that matter. It's the readers. And personally I don't see any confusion there. It's pretty obvious to most people (I would have thought) what is meant by it all. I've even asked a number of English work colleagues if they are confused by it, and not one of them is. And as we all know, the English are the most easily confused in all these issues. Fmph (talk) 11:38, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

Is the use of "Ireland" in the opening sentence of this article potentially confusing, given that RTE is the public service broadcaster not of the island of Ireland, but of the Republic of Ireland? Mooretwin (talk) 16:51, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

I think the question to be discussed needs to be clarified. Because the question asked is not the point in 'dispute' above. Fmph (talk) 19:48, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

Clarified now. Mooretwin (talk) 00:44, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

I think you mean Ireland not Ireland. Fmph (talk) 08:06, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

I wouldn't make assumptions on how easily the English are confused. Though i think you should be asking people from outside the British Isles, i.e. Americans, Australians, Canadians etc. who don't live a country beside the one's in question and so have less exposure to them. Mabuska ^(talk) 18:24, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

I would! I think we'd be better off asking people who might normally read the page, rather than people unlikely to ever visit it. Fmph (talk) 21:56, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

Whether its true or not, it would be taken as insulting and offensive by an English editor. Anyways, we must write articles to tender for everybody for you never know what reason someone will come across an article. Mabuska ^(talk) 21:09, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

Why don't you leave the English editors to register their own offence. I'm sure they are more than capable of doing so. And where does it say that "we must write articles to tender for everybody for you never know what reason someone will come across an article."? Fmph (talk) 21:28, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

Why don't you stop making rude and offensive comments about other people or making mocking statements as you have in other places. Just cause they are the topic of your comments, doesn't mean that only they can register it as offensive. WP:CIVILITY.

Also its called being helpful by ensuring there is no confusion for other readers from elsewhere who don't know the difference. Some of us actually try to help improve Wikipedia. Mabuska ^(talk) 23:47, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

So can you please clarify something for me. Are you offended by my comments above that the English are the most easily confused on these issues. If you are, I will take action to reduce the offence. If you are not , then I have to say that I think most English people would not be offended by my comments, but if they are I am willing to address their concerns. What I am not will to do is to address YOUR concerns that some English people might be offended by my comments. And the reason I'm not, is that I think you are wrong when you say they would be offended.

Am I correct in assuming that your comment that "Some of us actually try to help improve Wikipedia" is implying that I don't try to help improve Wikipedia? Is that correct? If so, then I have to say that it's a bad faith accusation and I'd suggest you should strike it. We are both here trying to improve the 'paedia. We just disagree about what is an improvement and what is not.

Were you able to find anywhere in the WP policies or guidelines where it says "we must write articles to tender for everybody for you never know what reason someone will come across an article."? Fmph (talk) 11:37, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

You've never apologised or struck out your previous mockery which is a sign of bad faith, and even defended it, so practice what you preach before making demands of anyone else Fmph. Who said it was in the WP policies? The statement "Some of us actually try to help improve Wikipedia" was and is solely the response to your question - it mightn't be an exact policy, but its still helpful and improves Wikipedia in preventing confusion for others. Read that whatever you want. Mabuska ^(talk) 18:36, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

So if I apologise for mocking you and strike the mocking text, you'll apologise to me and strike your bad faith comment above? Is that correct? Will that help us both to work together to achieve some consensus in areas where we disagree? If you agree, then just say so and I'll start the striking. Fmph (talk) 20:00, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

You'll also have to apologise and strike out the anti-English comments you made above as well as the instances where you felt the need to back it up (i.e. "I would!") and for backing up the mockery (i.e. "There is a need for such mockery"). An apology for accusing me several times of going to start an edit-war which never happened as i said it never would as no-one was making any edits other than commenting on a talk-page would be nice too. Then i will apologise in kind and strike out the above. Mabuska ^(talk) 13:53, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

I never accused you of starting an edit war. Don't you understand the conditional/future tense? I said you would start an edit war by insisting on your preferred change to the name of Derry. And I stand by that. Implementing your preferred usage will lead to an edit war. Thats my prediction. I make no apologies for that. As I said about the English stuff (which is not anti-English - most of my best friends are English), if it offends you - and I have yet to read that it does - I will strike it and apologise to you for offending you. So can you confirm that it does offend you? Fmph (talk) 15:17, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

Tough chance now after that snide remark - i said "of going to start", that is in reference to future tense so i understand tense perfectly well. Also why should it be specific for me to find it offensive for it to be offensive? I clearly implied i would of apologised if you did - instead you respond with a snide comment and instead of apologising try to narrow down what to say sorry for. Mabuska ^(talk) 18:25, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

Tell me what you find offensive. I'll strike and apologise. In return I need/want nothing from you. Simples? Fmph (talk) 12:53, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Show it as Republic of Ireland, as less familiar readers will mistake the pipelink as the island. GoodDay (talk) 23:18, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

This is essentially the same statement you made much earlier, then recently deleted (rather than struck out) and have now re-applied. What are you playing at? RashersTierney (talk) 02:19, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

An anxiety attack, earlier. GoodDay (talk) 03:09, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

If they are less familiar, how would they know about the island? Fmph (talk) 11:38, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

I can only go by my past personal experience. I used to believe that the whole island was entirely a independant country. I can only assume the same occurs with others. GoodDay (talk) 16:02, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

And presumably such confusion as you had could not possibly be cleared up by using Ireland and Northern Ireland? Is that correct? Fmph 13:25, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

In my travels in America i've heard many Americans mistake Ireland as a country that covers the whole island, even when you say to them your from Northern Ireland. Even South Africans in Manchester i met by accident a month ago made that assumption.

If you believe the confusion can be cleared up like that, then please try to fit it into the opening sentence of this article: Raidió Teilifís Éireann (Irish pronunciation: [ˈradʲo ˈtʲɛlʲəfʲiːʃ ˈeːrʲən] ( listen); English: Radio [and] Television of Ireland; abbreviated as RTÉ) is the public service broadcaster of Ireland.. It was tried above i think and didn't work out too well. RoI is a simple and quick fix that is direct and accurate. Mabuska ^(talk) 13:53, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

As I said above, I believe that using Ireland and Northern Ireland clears up any potential confusion. You disagree. So there we are. I disagree that just using Republic of Ireland clarifies matter. In fact using it may give people the impression that RoI is the name of the country, which would be confusing, wouldn't it? Fmph (talk) 15:09, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

The guideline says that, where confusion may arise, use "Republic of Ireland". It also says "where the island of Ireland or Northern Ireland is being discussed in the same context" (such as in your suggested wording), use "Republic of Ireland". Why are you trying to avoid adhering to the guideline? Mooretwin (talk) 16:33, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

The guideline also says "An exception is where the state forms a major component of the topic (e.g. on articles relating states, politics or governance) where Ireland should be preferred and the island should be referred to the island of Ireland, or similar (e.g. "Ireland is a state in Europe occupying most of the island of Ireland"). Sometimes it helps not to focus too narrowly on specific limitations. Given that the question mark is around the 'confusion' between the state and the island. and not between north and south, I'd have to say that the exception does apply in this case. Fmph 16:51, 8 February 2011 (UTC)"

Aye, but the article isn't about the state, politics or governance; it's about RTE the broadcaster. So it needs to be clear in the opening paragraph that RTE relates only to the Republic, and not to all of Ireland, as the rest of the article won't make that clear. So the exception doesn't apply. Mooretwin (talk) 17:21, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

As I suggested above, if reference is made in the opening sentence to the fact that RTÉ is a semi-state body, it would mitigate against any possible ambiguity. RashersTierney (talk) 18:15, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

Many people don't know that the state and the island aren't one and the same. Mooretwin (talk) 10:21, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Heres a few suggestions:

1. "Raidió Teilifís Éireann[4] (Irish pronunciation: [ˈradʲo ˈtʲɛlʲəfʲiːʃ ˈeːrʲən] ( listen); English: Radio [and] Television of Ireland; abbreviated as RTÉ) is a public service broadcaster in Ireland" - key points here is that way we can say its referring to the island as it can be picked up in both the Republic and Northern Ireland, however by saying "is a public service broadcaster" means we aren't saying that it is "the" public service broadcaster of it and thus aren't hinting that its the public service broadcaster of NI or the whole island.
2. "Raidió Teilifís Éireann[4] (Irish pronunciation: [ˈradʲo ˈtʲɛlʲəfʲiːʃ ˈeːrʲən] ( listen); English: Radio [and] Television of Ireland; abbreviated as RTÉ) is the public service broadcaster of Ireland, but can also be received in Northern Ireland."

Mabuska ^(talk) 18:31, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

Comment - Sky News can be received in both jurisdictions. RTÉ services can be received across the world, but is first and foremost a company with a very particular legal connection with the state. No need to obfuscate wrt a primary characteristic of this company. RashersTierney (talk) 22:30, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

Sky News isn't RTE so its position is irrelevant. RTE services can be receieved across the world, but as far as i know none of them can recieve it terrestrially via analogue like NI can, rather they would use satelite? What about the following tweak (still based on what is there right now):

"Raidió Teilifís Éireann[4] (Irish pronunciation: [ˈradʲo ˈtʲɛlʲəfʲiːʃ ˈeːrʲən] ( listen); English: Radio [and] Television of Ireland; abbreviated as RTÉ) is the public service broadcaster of Ireland, which can also be terrestrially received in Northern Ireland."

Mabuska ^(talk) 23:22, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

Why not just say it's the state or public-service broadcaster of the Republic of Ireland? That removes all ambiguity and avoids the need for trying to come up with a contrived sentence that goes all around the houses simply to avoid using "Republic of Ireland" in order to appease those with an irrational objection to the term. Mooretwin (talk) 10:21, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Because it smacks of an attempt to change the context to justify the introduction of a disputed name for the state rather than a bone fide dab. It isn't necessary from the context and can be easily clarified as I suggested. There appears to be a spurious attempt to change the wording to deliberately create ambiguity. Accusations of irrational objections are unfounded. RashersTierney (talk) 11:46, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

A "disputed name for the state"!? Republic of Ireland is the official description of the 26-county state. There's no disputing it. ~Asarlaí 11:54, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

'Republic of Ireland' is used by some as a name, and that use is very much disputed, which is why we have IMOS with its attempt to avoid unnecessary squabbles, as in this case. The application of IMOS at this article is currently correct in my view. RashersTierney (talk) 12:20, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Er, IMOS says use Republic of Ireland where confusion may arise! Mooretwin (talk) 12:34, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Cherrypicking? An exception is where the state forms a major component of the topic, as is clearly the case with a semi-state company. RashersTierney (talk) 12:47, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Snap

Er "An exception is where... blah blah" Fmph (talk) 12:50, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

I already explained above that the exception doesn't apply. One almost gets the impression that you're starting point is to avoid using "Republic of Ireland", rather than to achieve clarity for readers. What exactly is your objection to the term? Why are you so desperate not to use it? Mooretwin (talk) 13:20, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

And Rashers and I have both explained that it does apply. We're really moving forward fast here. In my humble opinion, using RoI does not clarity, because readers might think that wads the name of the country, which everyone agrees it is not. We have different views on clarity. And by the way, one almost gets the impression that YOUR staring point is to insist on using RoI, rather using the obvious default. Fmph (talk) 17:12, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Rashers and you are wrong. The article isn't about the state, doesn't discuss the state, so doesn't clarify whether RTE relates to Ireland as a whole or only to the Republic. Republic of Ireland is a name for the country, just not the "official" name. Whether or not readers might think ROI is the official name is of less concern here than whether or not they are confused about the subject of the article, ie RTE. My starting point isn't insisting on RoI, it's on achieving clarity and adhering to guidelines. Mooretwin (talk) 11:40, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

Exactly as Asarlai said, its an official description of the state so its not disputed. Just some people would always like to see it called Ireland. Any more thoughts on the comrpomise i stated above which would clearly get Northern Ireland mentioned to help show a difference? Mabuska ^(talk) 14:24, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps FMPH or Rashers could explain why they think it is more important to use the "official" name of the state than it is to make it clear that RTE relates to the Republic of Ireland and not to the island of Ireland. Mooretwin (talk) 11:49, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

That statement implies that it is not already clear. I would disagree with that implication. IMHO, it is perfectly clear that RTE relates to Ireland, and therefore the question of one set of words being more important than another, just doesn't apply. Fmph (talk) 12:26, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

It's not clear! How is it "perfectly clear" that RTE relates only to the South? It says "Ireland", which is the name of the island. Mooretwin (talk) 14:39, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

Because there is only one Irish state and it's a state-owned braodcaster. (and round and round we go again) Fmph (talk) 15:18, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

Not everyone knows that. A lot of people, understandably, consider that Ireland means the island. Mooretwin (talk) 10:37, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

What? There are people who know there is an island called Ireland, but don't know there is a country called Ireland? Is that what you are saying? Fmph (talk) 12:53, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

People who think the state and the island are the same. Mooretwin (talk) 14:27, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

And that would be awful, wouldn't it? In such cases on wikipedia, we have a facility called a pipelink which works across the rest of the 'paedia. I suggested earlier we should use it here, but for some reason, some people think it inadequate for this particular situation. I don't get it myself. For me, if it works well elsewhere, it'll work well here. Hey ho ... Fmph (talk) 15:34, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

You're relying on people hovering over or clicking the link, rather than just reading it. If you're happy for "Republic of Ireland" to be revealed in such fashion, why are you scared of it appearing in the text? Mooretwin (talk) 16:06, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

Why are you so scared of it appearing the same way as every other pipe-link on the paedia. What is so inviable about this one that it needs to have a completely different set of rules? Fmph (talk) 19:52, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

Maybe because pipe-links are meant to be avoided wherever possible by any chance? Which is further bolstered by the ambiguity of the term "Ireland". Mabuska ^(talk) 23:35, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

Where does it say that pipelinks are to be avoided at all costs? And if that were the case, why does IMOS use pipelinks all over the shop? Fmph (talk) 06:52, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

It is the view i have always got when discussions on various different pipe-links arise, added in the fact prominent editors also stated it made me assume it was de jure. Though the Wikipedia:Links#Piped_links policy states the following:

You may want to display a text for a link that is different from the linked article title. This can be achieved with what is called Piped links. Example: Henry II, which displays as Henry II. However, make sure that it is still clear what the link refers to without having to follow the link. Think about what the reader will believe the link is about. Example: When you use a link such as Archery (which displays as Archery), the reader will expect this link to go to a general article on archery, rather than Archery at the 2008 Summer Olympics. The exception is when it is clear from the context that links go to specific articles, as in template:2008 Summer Olympics Calendar, where all links go to the article about these specific games.

Can you honestly say Fmph that from reading the context of this articles introduction "is a semi-state company and the public service broadcaster of Ireland." that from the way it's worded that it is clear its on about Ireland the state or that its referring that the island is a state? The second half of the sentence doesn't.

On your question on why do we use the IMoS pipe-link, you should know that very well. The IMoS uses this particular pipe-link because some people for some reason take offense to the official description of the Irish state as defined by its own government being used. Others objected to the term Ireland being used for the state due to the conflict with the name of the island. So a compromise was thrashed out.

In regards to Mooretwins statement: "You're relying on people hovering over or clicking the link, rather than just reading it.", Wikipedia:Piped_link makes the following point:

Keep piped links as intuitive as possible. Do not use piped links to create "easter egg links", that require the reader to follow them before understanding what's going on. Also remember there are people who print the articles. For example, do not write this:

...and by mid-century the puns and sexual humor were (with only a few exceptions) back in to stay.

The readers will not see the hidden reference to Thomas Bowdler unless they click or hover over the piped exceptions link. In a print version, there is no link to select, and the reference is lost. Instead, reference the article explicitly:

...and by mid-century the puns and sexual humor were (with only a few exceptions, such as Thomas Bowdler) back in to stay.

This would sort of back up Mooretwin's statement. If the article is printed out then people will not see the pipe and when reading over it can easily assume from the way the introduction is worded that RTE is the public service provider of Ireland the island.

The key to sorting this issue is wording, i proposed a compromise above however it would invoke the IMoS unpiping, so i posted a new one below. Mabuska ^(talk) 12:23, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

Compromise - "...public service broadcaster of the country, Ireland". GoodDay (talk) 12:29, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

Many people consider or understand the whole island to be a country. Mooretwin (talk) 18:50, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

arbitrary break

I've posted a RfC at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ireland. Perhaps other members of the project may be able to bring a fresh view to this, RashersTierney (talk) 18:43, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

More of the same probably lol but worth a shot. Mabuska ^(talk) 22:53, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

RfCs, in my experience, never work. As evidenced by the above. Mooretwin (talk) 11:41, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

Technically the disambiguation you added MooreTwin: the state whose official name is Ireland, but whose jurisdiction does not extend over the whole of the island of Ireland. - actually invokes the IMoS where have to use RoI as we are talking about the state and island in the same sentence. Mabuska ^(talk) 12:25, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

LOL, you're right! Mooretwin (talk) 14:40, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

As i've constantly said the key is the wording. Heres another (not perfect) compromise that changes only a couple of words which i've put in bold to highlight:

Raidió Teilifís Éireann[4] (Irish pronunciation: [ˈradʲo ˈtʲɛlʲəfʲiːʃ ˈeːrʲən] ( listen); English: Radio [and] Television of Ireland; abbreviated as RTÉ) is a semi-state company and a public service broadcaster in Ireland.

Reading it, yes the in makes it more clear that its not referring to the state but rather the island, but the a heavily implies that it is a not "the" public service broadcaster of it. This allows scope for the fact it can be recieved in both parts of the island and that it isn't the public service broadcaster of NI. Republic of Ireland is linked in the infobox so its not like its hidden or can't be accessed. Its not perfect but a compromise is a compromise and if it helps conclude this then why not. Mabuska ^(talk) 12:29, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

It's still ambiguous. Using Republic of Ireland would remove all ambiguity. Mooretwin (talk) 18:49, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

I've no objections to using it. GoodDay (talk) 15:37, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

The RFC's worked a treat, then. As usual. Mooretwin (talk) 18:50, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

I think we should use "of" and move "semi-state company" closer to "Ireland" just to emphasize that we're talking about the state. It would then read "public service broadcaster and semi-state company of [state name]". ~Asarlaí 16:22, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

Fine by me. RashersTierney (talk) 17:14, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

Is it going to start with an a or the. I'd prefer a personally. Mabuska ^(talk) 18:45, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

As long as the "Ireland" wikilinks to the appropriate article, I'd be happy. bobrayner (talk) 13:21, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

As I understand it, in this proposal it would not be linked at all, which to me would be totally confusing for many readers. Fmph (talk) 14:21, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

Hmm. If the original problem was one of ambiguity, I'm not sure that unlinking it would be helpful. bobrayner (talk) 14:41, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

Interesting that Fmph is now accepting that there is ambiguity. He should now do the honourable thing and accept that the IMOS guideline applies. Mooretwin (talk) 14:43, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

The interesting thing is not whether there is any ambiguity, but whther the standard WP:IMOS guideline can handle the ambiguity. My position has always been that it could. Attack the problem, not the person. Fmph (talk) 15:38, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

Fmph obvioulsy wikilinks will be added in when its been inserted into the article. Mabuska ^(talk) 21:38, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

Howabout this kinda 'wiki-link' "...and semi-state company of the country, Ireland". GoodDay (talk) 02:28, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

It's already been said that we're not using "country" since it's a vague term. Have we reached an agreement on: "a public-service broadcaster and semi-state company of [[Republic of Ireland|Ireland]]" ? ~Asarlaí 02:34, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

If the rest accept it, then so will I. GoodDay (talk) 02:42, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

Looks good to me. bobrayner (talk) 09:10, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

Depends on Mooretwin as he is the original raiser of the issue. Mabuska ^(talk) 14:23, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

Mooretwin's been editing these last 3 days, but not here. It appears he's lost interest in this Rfc & its topic. We may aswell adopt the compromise & close up this Rfc. GoodDay (talk) 19:57, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

Well Mooretwin decided to just input a new compromise even though it wasn't discussed. I think its ok but depends one everyone else. Mabuska ^(talk) 21:29, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

I don't see any hope of any compromise by MT being acceptable to Fmph or vise versa. I think I'll depart this Rfc - good luck, ya'll. GoodDay (talk) 16:08, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

Fmph could at least give an explaination as to why he doesn't like the compromise of Mooretwin. Mabuska ^(talk) 17:04, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

My compromise is to use "Irish state" instead of Republic of Ireland - avoids "Ireland" and avoids "Republic of Ireland". Unfortunately, this goes against the guidance, which says use Republic of Ireland, but appears to be the only way to get a solution. Mooretwin (talk) 20:50, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

Can someone please define what the problem is with the current wording, and when we understand that then maybe we can see what solutions are possible? Me, I don't see a problem with the current wording. But I am open to persuasion (contrary to GoodDay's typical stirring). Just explain what the problem is. And for the record, the reason I reverted MTs compromise was because it hadn't been discussed. For me it was very disrespectful of every other editor here, for Mooretwin to just ignore us all and try to impose his/her solution on the rest of us without discussion. So, can anyone explain in simple terms why the lede of this article needs a composition different from any other Ireland-related article on the wiki? Fmph (talk) 22:40, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

I've scratched out my comment on you & Mooretwin. I request you do the same with the "(..typical stirring)" comment on me. GoodDay (talk) 23:12, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

Are you saying Fmph you don't know what this whole endless thing is about? The present wording implies that RTE is the public broadcaster of Ireland - whilst it is in regards to Ireland as in RoI, its not in regards to the whole island. Point of this entire thing is clarification. Mabuska ^(talk) 12:23, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

It uses - like 99% of similar situations across the paedia - Ireland. If that works everywhere else, what is different about this context that suggests a change might be needed? No one has ever answered that one. Fmph (talk) 12:52, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

I believe that the 'pipe-link' itself, is the core of these identification problems. As long as the country article remains at Republic of Ireland, we should be linking directly to it. GoodDay (talk) 19:21, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

Everywhere I go these days the pop is begin stirred. Taken an interest in Motorsport recently as well.... As Fmph says Ireland works everywhere else so why not here? And from what I see is within the guideline of the IMOS. Bjmullan (talk) 21:33, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

Comment on the content, not the contributor. GoodDay (talk) 21:44, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

Given that you believe that we should move away from WP:IMOS, can I suggest the best route forward would be to open a discussion at WT:IMOS outlining your proposed changes, along with rationale and references for those proposals, and see how it gets on. I'd suggest that the initial response will be along the lines of saying that WP:IECVOT fixed the names of the articles for 2 years in Sept 2009, and that it would be a bit silly to consider changing the IMOS in advance of that anniversary. Fmph (talk) 00:16, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

That would likely be their response, which I'd have no probs with. Cool. GoodDay (talk) 00:31, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

So are there any objections to the proposed compromise of using "Irish state" instead of "Ireland" or "Republic of Ireland"? So far none has been expressed. Mooretwin (talk) 13:52, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

I've no objections. GoodDay (talk) 15:19, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

I think it's safe to assume that my request for someone to outline a very good reason why this article needs a different construction to the vast majority of other similar articles on the 'paedia, is an objection. If someone can answer that satrisfactorily, I would be open to discdussing a compromise. However, no one has yet made that case. Fmph (talk) 17:00, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Because it refers to Ireland, which is ambiguous. Mooretwin (talk) 00:49, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Ireland is not ambiguous. Thats exactly how the IMOS says we should do it in the vast majority of articles. There are 1000's of articles on the paedia like that. They are fine. What's different about this one? Fmph (talk) 12:01, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Fmph a good enough reason has been provided for you. Its your opinion (which your entitled to)Thats wh to disregard that reason as not being a reason. Would any reason given be good enough for acceptance? Thats why i think an outside admin should be tasked to decide these matters. Mabuska ^(talk) 21:50, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Where? What is that reason? Is it just this vague "Its ambiguous" nonsense that IMOS has been put in place to deal with? Or is it something else. I havent seen a a well constructed argument about why this article needs to be different fromt the IMOS guidelines. And I dont think anyone has ever made that argument. Fmph (talk) 12:01, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Maybe it would be worth taking the time to read the original proposition at the start of this entire discussion. Mabuska ^(talk) 12:11, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

I read it originally, and I've re-read it now. It doesn't identify any reason why this article should be treated differently to the vast majority of similar articles across the 'paedia. Instead it claims a rather unique, limited, and novel POV interpretation of the first part of IMOS, while ignoring the totality of it. This interpretation has repudiated by numerous contributors further down through the discussions. What is being argued for is a tightening of IMOS. In which case this is the wrong venue for such an argument. It should be conducted at WT:IMOS, and any agreed consensus there, should be implemented across all related articles. There is nothing unique about the article which would require such a restrictive interpretation of IMOS. And until someone introduces some uniqueness, this is going nowhere. It is a waste of everyones time. Lets move on. Fmph (talk) 12:36, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

The references to "Ireland" in the "vast majority" of articles to which you refer are mere geographic articles. Ambiguity doesn't come into play because, geographically, towns in the Republic are in both "Irelands", i.e. the island and the state. Therefore, saying "Cork is in Ireland" is always right, whichever meaning of Ireland is intended. In this article, and many others, ambiguity is an issue because it is important to know whether RTE is the broadcaster for all of Ireland or just the Republic. IMOS is clear: where there is ambiguity use Republic of Ireland - you haven't come up with any reason to set aside the guideline in this case. Mooretwin (talk) 15:38, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Just have a quick trawl through the What links here pages for RoI and you'll see that the vast majority are not 'mere' geographic articles. And have a good read of ALL of WP:IMOS because it is in no way 'clear' that where there is ambiguity we should use RoI. This has been explained many times before, and just repeating this mantra ad infinitum does not in any way progress the argument any further forward. Fmph (talk) 16:00, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

So what type of non-geographic articles use Ireland where ambiguity may arise? If you have identified some, then the IMOS guideline should apply. And, from reading "all" of the IMOS, it is indeed clear that ROI should be used where ambiguity arises, as has been explained many times before. Just denying this ad infinitum does not in any way progress the argument any further forward. (If you're trying to argue that "the state forms a major component" of this article, you're wrong - this article is about, and discusses, RTE, not the Irish state. Mooretwin (talk) 10:18, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

I think this dispute should be taken to the next step of dispute resolution as its just going round and round and round. I still think external admins should assess whether or not the IMoS should apply. Mabuska ^(talk) 22:49, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Happy to ask an external admin to rule on the proposed compromise. Mooretwin (talk) 10:18, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

I mean an admin or several admins to provide a better perspective over whether or not there is a case for changing it. We see a case, Fmph and a couple others don't. Neutral (hopefully) outsiders in authority may be able to clarifiy if either camps have a case. Mabuska ^(talk) 12:47, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Well? Mooretwin (talk) 14:38, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

Clean forgot all about it. Bit busy elsewhere at the moment though. Mabuska ^(talk) 13:55, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Ireland and Ireland

Many rte articles are using Ireland when the should be using Republic of Ireland and this needs to be addressed. C. 22468 (talk) 16:37, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

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