Talk:Prophets and messengers in Islam

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 8 January 2019 and 18 April 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Nsoufraji, Savannah Stout, Xmf137roman (article contribs). This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 27 August 2019 and 16 December 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Choij759 (article contribs).

Major concerns about this article

The vast majority of footnotes here are taken directly from the Quran. Wikipedia members are not (by and large) qualified to perform authoritative Quranic exegesis, and such runs afoul of WP:OR. I submit that this article needs to be cut back to just those portions citing academic/scholarly discussion of the concepts, as opposed to one Quran reader's selection of those passages proving various points. MatthewVanitas (talk) 22:25, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

I share your concerns. I first tagged the article on RC patrol a few weeks ago and it seems as though it is nothing but synthesis and original research (although it's well written and an interesting read). There are effectively zero footnotes from secondary sources (citing the index of a secondary source doesn't count). There's one tertiary source, but it's not explicitly about the topic of this article. Do you think the OR problem is bad enough the article should go to AfD? I'm leaning in that direction but I wanted to wait to see if the article got improved over a few weeks of existence. Sailsbystars (talk) 22:33, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Harmonize content and merge

I'd propose a coherent merge of parts of this article with the main Prophets of Islam article. This article can be used instead to focus on the theological differences between Prophets and Messengers in Islam. There is a discussion on the same at the other Talk Page. Shaad lko (talk) 13:16, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

Rename proposal

The article about messengers in Islam is titled Apostle (Islam). I think we should be using the word "apostle" here too, and this article should be renamed to Prophets and apostles in Islam. Khestwol (talk) 09:36, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Request for comment

		Proposal for removing prefixes "Islamic views on xyz"
		I have started a request move to remove the prefixes Attached with the Prophets in Islam to there Names as in Islam. Like Islamic views on Abraham → Ibrahim as it becomes difficult to search the topic. Please participate in the discussion at Talk:Page Thanks. --Ibrahim ebi (talk) 19:27, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

Concerning Jesus

When the article mentions Jesus, I think that the link should send the user to Jesus in Islam instead of just Jesus because this article is Islamic related, right? Mohamed Boutaleb (talk) 15:38, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

I agree. The same goes for Moses in Islam, Noah in Islam, and others. But that is the least of the problems with this article. The list of issues shown at the top of the article are more immediate concerns. ~Amatulić (talk) 19:45, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

Categorization

Hello. I noticed that this article was both in Category:Islam and Category:Prophets of Islam. This seems redundant. Perhaps remove it from Islam, since the other category is already in it?

Prophet infoboxes

As discussed here (and following the MoS guidelines) I propose to remove the honorifics ( عليه السلام - ʿalayhi s-salām) from the infoboxes on articles about individual prophets.

Although I understand why editors have put the link to this article at the top of those infoboxes, it’s not a proper use of the |honorific_prefix= parameter and the link is already included in the Islamic prophets template on each page. The ideal solution would probably be some merger of the infobox with that template so that the unifying link to this article did appear at the top, but that would be a much more complicated job.

I also plan to declutter a bit, just leaving the Arabic version of the name in the |name= parameter as information about other versions of the name (e.g. Abraham vs. ʾIbrāhīm) are provided in the article itself.

--☸ Moilleadóir ☎ 05:25, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

On reflection I’ve decided it makes more sense to put the Arabic & English names in the |name= parameter and use the |native_name= parameter more literally. --☸ Moilleadóir ☎ 06:53, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

Suggesting article merging or deletion

Although this particular article seems comprehensive to be warranted like an encyclopedic entry, the lack of citations is an issue. I also notice there is no similar counterpart article in reference to Judaism, Christianity or the Old / New Testament (or "bible") (these three religions being similar and sometimes categorized as counterparts or cohesive evolutions in terms of religious history) with the same information "list of characters and names mentioned...". These are my points regarding deletion.

My point regarding merging is perhaps the article can be merged with any or all of these:

List of names mentioned in the Quran.

List of people mentioned by name in the Quran.

List of characters and names mentioned in the Quran.

All of these have, you guessed it, a lack of proper and adequate references. Deleting the four may not serve the purpose of forwarding adequate and insightful information, but perhaps merging what seems to be similar articles would be a move towards progress. I'm surprised these articles have lasted so long with those tags requesting additional citations / corrections (see tag dates) since they were started. -- HafizHanif (talk) 18:57, 9 July 2016 (UTC)

Soft Oppose I believe this article can't be merged with the other, but you can merge the other two. On top of that this article serves to explain who were prophets and who were messengers. Alexis Ivanov (talk) 21:23, 9 July 2016 (UTC)

I think this particular article should follow the outline and simplicity seen in the similarly titled article Prophets of Christianity. Notice how that article contains a concise introduction and a simple list. I think this article should have an introduction explaining the Islamic theological understanding between "Prophets" and "Messengers", besides other things prophet/messenger related. This article currently simply repeats the legendary religious propaganda, but no scholarship explaining or supporting the ideas. This is supposed to be an encyclopedic article, not a platform to promote legends and unverified propaganda.

I will most likely go through this article and delete all the content lacking proper citation (which is the majority of content). Two years have passed since the notice atop the article's page and not much has improved. Everything else mentioned and detailed in this article is found in other wikipedia articles on Islam. - HafizHanif (talk) 21:43, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

List of Issues and Privacy Concerns about Matters Related to Prophets

The original Wikipedia entry is/was at, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Issues_and_Privacy_Concerns_about_Matters_Related_to_Prophets, however, it might be speedily deleted for being in the wrong section. The intention of having a separate page was so that it could encompass addressing more than one article.

This is intended to be an ongoing list open for entries posted by scholars and authorities on the subject matter; ongoing might include minimizing information, substantiated by content that may be found in the list.

'Prophets' in this article, refers to Prophets which the Prophet Muhammad, prayers upon him and peace, referred to in his Ahadeeth, (transliteration for the plural Arabic term for Hadeeth, also spelled Hadith ⁽¹⁾, which in this context is briefly translated as sayings and traditions of the Prophet Muhammad). Confer Prophets and messengers in Islam⁽²⁾.

As this is a list of 'issues', and not so much a lean on fact, sources for the information provided on this page might not have as much of an emphasis for the issues, whereat the facts may. It is for this very reason that this Wikipedia list is being generated, because, substantiation for certain minimizations of revealing personal information and 'mysteries' about the Prophets might be relatively more difficult to find in English written literature as of the current date 2017.

As it stands today, there are multiple articles in Wikipedia that have conflicting information that regards the Prophets, whereas, it is extremely important to follows of the Faith they preached, to uphold the information presented in exactness. An instance of inconsistency is an excerpt from the article on Prophet Idris (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idris_(prophet)) which states that Muslims believe he is a third Prophet, while the Pages on Prophets in Islam, such as Prophets and messengers in Islam have no second Prophet between Idris and Adam, whereas, Seth according to some views might have been the second between Adam and Idris.

Topics and Corresponding Comments

Topic: How long did Prophets live?

Comment: There are men, such as Uzair⁽³⁾, that went to sleep for 100 years, then awoke⁽⁴⁾. How is it that time is measured in this instance? Generally speaking, there may be miracles of time that are involved with Prophets which might not conform exactly modern day linear usages and measurements of time, such as 60 minutes to an hour, 24 hours to a day, and 365 days to a year.

Topic: How many Prophets were there?

Comment: There are Ahadeeth, plural, sayings of Prophet Muhammad, about the numbers of Prophets. See 'Number of Prophets'⁽⁵⁾.

Topic: The chronological order of Prophets

Comment: There could be matters that pertain to how the measuring of time is done, such as whether a point of reference in time began with the moment a Prophet reached or was 'conferred' Prophethood, or when he was born. In natural possibility, there could be overlaps of time measurements, when one person has received the rank of a certain degree after another person was born.

Topic: Disclosing mysteries about Prophets that are 'reserved' for scholars of high spiritual degree

Comment: The design of Wikipedia which forces scholarly substantiation behind information, has positive aspects, however, in the broader design, providing sources which make it easy for those that might not necessarily have a zeal to learn about them on the topic of Prophets, or passerbyers that stumbled upon it whom have no persona of piety, it may be felt by those that hold certain knowledges having to do with Prophets as 'sentimental', that the referent readers should not have easy access to those knowledges.

Topic: Books of Prophets, and changes to them

Comment: In Islam, it is believed that the Quran is a book that has gone unchanged. There is also saying credited as being from Prophet Muhammad, [citation and exact saying needed] that there have been books such as the Injeel, (confer Gospel in Islam⁽⁶⁾) sometimes referred to a the Bible, which have been 'changed' over the years. In brief, the 'Book' when originally revealed was or is the book, while edits and revisions done to texts years later might have other content that could differ from the the original revelations. Matters of concern could arise in the quest for obtaining the earliest known recordings of contents of books revealed to Prophets. Well known Revealed Books are Torah/Toreh revealed to Musa/Moses, Quran to Muhammad, Zabur⁽⁷⁾ to Daud/Dawud/David. Among books mentioned in the Quran, is Book of Ishmael⁽⁸⁾. Book of Isiah is mentioned in 'The Dead Sea Scrolls and the Bible'⁽⁹⁾. The Injeel, the Torah/Toreh, are clearly mentioned verbatim in the Quran.

Topic: Families and descendants of Prophets

Comment: Prophets were creation, men; they had lives, and their personal relations and families, should be respected insofar disclosing personal information. Surviving descendants might dwell in a village and wish to remain there in peace without inordinate intrusion.

Topic: How to know a Prophet is a Prophet, if he is not mentioned in the Quran

Comment: This has been a subject around for time lengths undescribed; in consideration that the Quran is treated by scholars of Islam as a book unchanged. Note, unchanged in this context means what was revealed, not referring to the different manuscript styles that the Quran is printed in, in Arabic, over time. The article 'How Do We Know the Quran is Unchanged?'⁽¹⁰⁾, cites Surah Hijr ayat (verse) 9, subheading 'The Promise to Protect', 'wa ina lahu lahafithun', transliterated.

Sources:

⁽¹⁾Prophets and messengers in Islam, at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prophets_and_messengers_in_Islam

⁽²⁾Hadith, at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadith

⁽³⁾Uzair, at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uzair

⁽⁴⁾'Uzair (Ezra) - Ezra Sleeps For 100 Years' http://www.alim.org/library/biography/stories/content/SOP/1/26/Uzair%20%28Ezra%29/Ezra%20%20Sleeps%20For%20100%20Years%20

⁽⁵⁾Number of Prophets, https://www.al-islam.org/prophethood-and-prophet-islam-ayatullah-ibrahim-amini/number-prophets

⁽⁶⁾Gospel in Islam, at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_in_Islam

⁽⁷⁾Zabur, at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zabur

⁽⁸⁾Ishmael, at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishmael

⁽⁹⁾'The Dead Sea Scrolls and the Bible', authored by Pfieffer, Charles F., 1969

⁽¹⁰⁾How Do We Know the Quran is Unchanged?, http://lostislamichistory.com/how-do-we-know-the-quran-is-unchanged/

Firstly, this particular page is the "talk page", where editors have discussions regarding the actual article. Perhaps this may clarify any confusion about what has been discussed on this talk page so far. Secondly, this article (and many other articles on the details of Islam) have many issues, one being the lack of secondary and tertiary citations by qualified and notable historians / scholars. This article, for example, reads more like religious propaganda repeating legends, instead of citing comprehensive scholarly work available from both religious and secular sources. You can start here to learn how to contribute improvements to this and other pages: Referencing for beginners. Cheers and good luck. - HafizHanif (talk) 21:14, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

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Semuil

In Samuel#Islam the sources say Semuil is a nabi who is mentioned in the Quran, but not by name. Should he be covered in this article? Ibadibam (talk) 20:15, 16 July 2018 (UTC)

Muhammad's equivalent

On the table, it states that Muhammad's equivalent is "Paraclete" or the Holy Spirit. Is that supposed to be like that? Catinthedogs (talk) 01:36, 2 May 2019 (UTC)