Talk:Swedish language

Discussions on Swedish phonology have been moved to Talk:Swedish phonology.

You/thou-reform

Is it really correct to translate "du-reformen" as "the-you-reform"? Contrary to English, where the more reverential plural form (you) became the norm, Swedish went with the more familiar singular which corresponds more to the (archaic) "thou". Therefore, it would be more correct to translate the "du-reform" as "the-thou-reform" rather than "the-you-reform". /probell (Talk) 20:43, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

I think I would leave it untranslated, the "du-reform", because one'd need to learn distinctions different from English to understand it, anyway. I'd rather keep a small clause explaing what "du" means in Swedish. (where "du" is the standard second person singular pronoun) Comments? 惑乱 分からん 16:14, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I tried to amend this by adding some more information[1]. Please feel free to tweak it s'more if you still feel that anything is unclear.

Peter ^Isotalo 08:54, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Old Norse vs Runic Swedish

(Also see the archived discussion.)

I'd like to

(1) add a comment in the beginning of the historic section, stating that seemingly the (North Germanic speaking) inhabitants of Scandinavia considered themselves as speaking the same language, up to the sixteenth century;

(2) add a note on seemingly rather early signs of distinctions in the pronounciation of explosives between (rougly) what evolved into Danish on the one hand, and the other mainland vernaculars on the other.

In both cases, I won't do anything until when (and if) I've succeeded to find the sources where I read about these things (unless no other may provide them). My question is: Would you find such additions valuable, if they are properly verified? JoergenB 21:38, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

They seem very valuable to me. I'm looking forward to the additions.

Peter ^Isotalo 10:26, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Three slight problems

1. Regarding the statement: "It is currently expected that the bill will be successfully passed if it is put up for a second vote."

Who is "it"? In other words, who is expecting this? Seems like introduction of unnecessary POV. If you want to call it a majority viewpoint, please introduce sources to verify this claim.

2. Regarding the statement: "The linguistic definition of a Swedish dialect is a local variant that has not been heavily influenced by the standard language and that can trace a separate development all the way back to Old Norse."

This statement is too simplistic, if not incorrect. If "linguistics" is referring to old-fashioned "traditional dialectology", this needs to be stated because this is no longer a definition used in modern linguistic research into dialects, and has hardly been in use in practice at all since the early 1980s. "Separate development" is generally not used as a definition for dialects as they are the spoken language of a living, breathing speech community and few modern societies have enclaves of humans without influences from the surrounding world. See for example a more modern approach to dialects in linguistic research, as applied in the SweDia 2000 project, as explained in a statement by Anders Eriksson, Professor of Phonetics at Gothenburg University, one of the leading scholars involved in the project: "Frågor och svar om projektet: Är inspelningarna exempel på genuina dialekter?". SweDia 2000, (in Swedish). For a somewhat different definition, as applied in sociolinguistics, see for example Einarsson, Jan (2004). Språksociologi. Lund: Studentlitteratur, p.139, where the spectrum between genuine dialect and spoken Standard Swedish is divided into five categories. For a common international definition, see for example Dr. John R. Rickford, Professor of Linguistics Stanford University, How Linguists Approach the Study of Language and Dialect, a document offered students in introductory linguistics classes at Stanford University.

3. The article is not clarifying the difference between the codification of written and spoken Standard Swedish, which is odd considering the long section dedicated to the written standard. As pointed out in the article by Einar Haugen (Professor of Linguistics and Scandinavian, Harvard University, 1964–75) and Jan Terje Faarlund (Professor of Scandinavian Linguistics, University of Trondheim, Norway), who contributed the article "Languages of the subgroup Swedish" a North Germanic languages article in Encyclopædia Britannica Online (2006), a spoken Standard Swedish was not introduced until 1842. (See also a Swedish Television special of 25 Jan. 2006, about the "language hygienic" drive in Swedish schools, a drive aimed to obliterate dialects and enforce "well-mannered" (hyfsat) Stockholm-influenced speech in Swedish schools. 060125 - Reportage: Uttalshygien - dialekttvätt genom den allmänna folkskolan. (Media file, in Swedish). I see some other slight problems, which I will return to as time allows, but on the whole, I think this is an excellent article, and the featured status well deserved. Pia 00:00, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Köla, Värmland - Sveamål!?

I seriously doubt that the dialect spoken in Köla, Värmland is considered to be Sveamål. Where's the proper reference for this extraordinary claim? In any case, it contradicts the article http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sveam%C3%A5l . Which article - at the present stage of development - has the correct claim? I know it's the linked one, but it'd be interesting to see where the claim that the dialect spoken in Köla is Sveamål comes from... Jens Persson (130.242.128.85 21:43, 22 October 2006 (UTC))

It's obviously something of a transitional dialect. So are you by any chance basing your complaint on something other than an unrefernced article in Swedish wikipedia or your own opinions?

Also, please don't go around changing this fact in other articles (French, Swedish, Dutch wikipedia) without fixing the map first. It's very obvious that the map was made with the intent to go with a list. If you want to fix the list, fix the map as well. You're just making it harder to read right now.

Peter ^Isotalo 15:14, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

I'll try to remember to fix the map as soon as I am at home in Jämtland. (Before the end of November.)

I can't say I know anything about the Köla dialect, but if Köla is situated geographically as the map suggests, it can't be a "transitional dialect". The Götamål-Sveamål transitional dialects are situated in eastern parts of the province.

Judging from a search on Eniro and assuming we are discussing a "transitional dialect", I would rather call the Köla dialect an East Norwegian-Götamål transitional dialect. But I think the most sober label would be Götamål.

Jens Persson (130.242.128.85 23:06, 12 November 2006 (UTC))

The information in the articles sveamål, götamål Värmland: dialekter in NE and the dialect maps on Svenska språket under sjuhundra år (see reference section) appear very inconclusive on this issue. What are your sources?

Peter ^Isotalo 13:48, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

One source is e.g. Kortfattad svensk språkhistoria by Gösta Bergman. Bengt pamps Svenska dialekter would work fine as well. If you want to, I can even contact my dear friend professor Staffan fridell at Department for Nordic langauges, Uppsala university. (I have already employed his knowledge in my correct claim that Old Swedish had diphthongs, contrary to the original incorrect claim of the article on the Swedish language.) Since I know you have a severe tendency of interpreting sourcing in your own way, I would like you to quote and scan your graphical data in NE and Svenska språket under sjuhundra år. Please. You're making the extraordinary claim, so you should provide some detailed extraordinary proof for it.

As a very simple and illustrating "proof" of the Köla dialect being Götamål rather than Sveamål, take a look at the SweDia transcription pages of the dialect. (Here.) Now, as you see, Standard Swedish mycket (=much) is myä or möe in the dialect. Now, this if anything should convince you that it's Götamål. I assume you have a deep knowledge about the differences between Sveamål and Götamål. Götamål myä (möe etc) corresponds to Sveamål mycke (myttje etc). The only feature which looks like Sveamål to me is that there is a lack of opened short vowels (fisk, not fesk etc.), but this probably has more to do with the fact that the dialect in question is a transitional Götamål-East Norwegian one. Another explanation is that the dialect speakers have lost this feature recently. (A yet another explanation is that the transcriptioner has interpreted the opened short vowels as ordinary closed vowels - the SweDia transcriptions are far from being flawless.)

Jens Persson (130.242.128.85 21:40, 13 November 2006 (UTC))

Input requested

Hi. We could use some outside input over at Categories for discussion. In particular, here we have two people arguing over what to call Category:Finland-Swedish, and another couple of opinions could be very helpful. Thanks! -GTBacchus^(talk) 20:57, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

"Dialect" Samples

On the one hand, the article says (in the dialect paragraph):

The linguistic definition of a Swedish dialect is a local variant that has not been heavily influenced by the standard language and that can trace a separate development all the way back to Old Norse.

But on the other hand (concerning the SweDia samples),

All dialect samples are from SweDia, a research project on Swedish dialects available for download (though with information in Swedish only), [...]

Something is wrong here. Listening to most of the samples (especially the ones from my own province Jämtland, they do not represent "a local variant that has not been heavily influenced by the standard language", which is "[the] linguistic definition of a Swedish dialect". Thus, following this claim, most of the samples do not represent "Swedish dialects", but something else. Either we must change the definition of what a dialect is, or we must remove the claim that the SweDia samples represent dialects. The samples represent random speakers from certain areas, but hardly the genuine form of the local varieties of speech untouched by Standard Swedish. What do you think? I request change of terminology here, at least concerning the samples. Should we instead of "Swedish dialects" call them e.g. "local varieties of regiolects"? Of course, a few of the samples reallt represent dialects, so they should be denoted dialects. (Or preferrably removed and replaced by more Standard Swedish samples from the nearby area.)

Jens Persson (130.242.128.85 22:23, 13 November 2006 (UTC))

Take a look at 2. in Pia's post above. When I wrote the dialect section I had only really read a small section on dialects in Olle Engstrand's book on phonetics, and since I have encountered other views on this issue. For example in books written by Östen Dahl.

Could you motivate why you switched the dialect sample from Aspås and described it as transitional?

Peter ^Isotalo 10:44, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

I switched the dialect sample since the young man better represent dialectal speech, which is what the samples are trying to reflect. I come from the neighbour village (Nälden, which is mentioned in the main text about Aspås), so I know that the young woman more represents the Östersund speech than Aspås speech. But of course, the young male doesn't speak "a local variant that has not been heavily influenced by the standard language and that can trace a separate development all the way back to Old Norse" either. But that's an other issue. (NB: I know the identity of the speaker and his father - who I have met a couple of times - is pretty well-known in Jämtland.)

The dialects in Jämtland (except the ones in the east) are transitional Tröndish-Norrlandic ones. No dialectologist denies this. They usually state it as "Norrlandic with heavy Norwegian influences" in the literature, though. (Note that I am not one of the fanatics stating that the Jämtland dialects are Norwegian or even constituting an own separate language. I am merely following the mainstream Scandinavian dialectologists here.) I may seem pedantic to you, but I simply want things to be as correct as possible. You'll be able to verify all my claims by reading the sources presented by both you and me.

I propose we also denote the Bohuslän sample transitional. (East Norwegian-Götamål; this is in accordance with the mainstream dialectology.)

I didn't notice the debate started by Pia. She's correct in that it's slightly simplistic, but I must say I agree with the definition. But this means that there are very few surviving living dialects today. I don't think dialectologists disagree with me. The local varieties of speech we hear today are varieties of regiolects, e.g. the young female from Aspås speaks a local variety of the Norrlandic subdivision of the Central Swedish regiolect. Remember - I assume you have even written some article about this though not using the term "regiolect" - the Swedish regiolects are South Swedish (Lund), East Swedish (Åbo), Mid Swedish (Uppsala) and West Swedish (Göteborg). The cities within parenthesis are the universities where the region's variety of Standard Swedish were once defined.

I think it is very important to separate genuine dialects (which are more or less extinct today) and the local varieties of regiolects. Linguists use a system where there are five steps (I think) where the step in one (let's say left) extreme is "genuine dialect" and the step in the other ("right") extreme is "standard language". The "neutral regiolect" would be the step just "left" of "standard language", and the samples of SweDia probably typically represent the step just left of the "neutral regiolect", let's call it "local regiolect". The "local regiolects" show some important surviving dialectal features, but mainly they follow the "neutral regiolect" in question. Left of the "local regiolects" we find the "diluted dialect" which is a very inconsistent version of "genuine dialect" and "standard language". Basically, when I changed the sample, I switched from "local regiolect" to "diluted dialect". I request that we change "dialect" to "local regiolect" (requires a regiolect article?) when referring to the SweDia samples in general. But it would take an expert on the subject to actually determine whether the single samples are pure dialect or regiolect. We need to be able to verify that the individual samples actually are dialects or regiolects. That's the problem with SweDia as I see it. It's not consistent in the five step scale described above. Some speakers are purely dialectal (where the genyuione dialect has survived AND the picked speaker happens to speak the dialect) while some are close to speaking neutral regiolect (quite few, though). Most samples tend to be in the middle of the scale, but SweDia should have some kind of comments on how well the samples represent the dialects described in the traditional dialectology literature.

Jens Persson (130.242.128.85 18:46, 14 November 2006 (UTC))

This is not the appropriate article to go into this kind of excruciating detail. If you want to start going into pedantic detail I suggest you start working on Swedish dialects. This is a main language article and it's intended for general readership and laymen, not hobby linguists.

And do try not to switch more dialect samples based on what you personally consider to be more appropriate representations of certain dialects.

Peter ^Isotalo 22:16, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

It's not about being pedantic, but about being consistent with current scientific terminology. If you don't accept basic conventions, then Wikipedia is not the right place to argue against them. You are too inflicting here, which I would only accept if you actually were not ignorant concerning the subject. But you clearly have no bakcground at all in dialect reserach, not even on hobby level.

The reason I aim on this article rather than the specialized Swedish dialects article is of course because the latter is much less visited, naturally.

I can't see any reason 'not to switch samples. They are randomly chosen anyway. Though concerning e.g. the Aspås sample it almost feels like the person who made the choice to use the yonger female did so to prove that people don't speak dialect in Jämtland any more. But I assume it was a random choice, and all I did was simply to put some intelligence behind the new choice. Let me ask, which were the exact principles behinds the scientific valid process of chosing which samples to use in the article?

Jens Persson (130.242.128.85 18:58, 15 November 2006 (UTC))

I noticed now there is no article on Swedish dialects since one gets redirected to Swedish language. Please mr Isotalo, don't tell me to focus editing on a specialized article that doesn't even exist anymore!

Jens Persson (130.242.128.85 19:04, 15 November 2006 (UTC))

Mr Persson, I appreciate your knowledge of Swedish dialects, but jugding from some of your contributions, I really must remind you of Wikipedia's No Original Research policy. In some of your suggestions, you are proposing changes of classification based on your own knowledge, not on scholarly literature - and that is a problem. For example, unless you provide a reliable source calling this or that dialect "transitional", "a neutral/local idiolect", "a diluted dialect" or whatever, it is against Wikipedia's policies to use these designations. Now, while you might be right in inventing this or that new designation/interpretation, it still may not be included in the article, because we have no guarantee that you are right (it is not verifiable, even if it is the truth).

I haven't been following this page and I don't know whether the original classification is based on scholarly literature (I suppose Peter Isotalo ought to know that, if he was the one who added it). If it isn't, it should be deleted as well, or only the uncontroversial parts should be kept.

Concerning the issue about whether these are "original" or "authentic" dialects, it is indeed discussed on Swedia's site (I don't remember where exactly, it's a long time since I read it, so I suggest you find it yourself). Personally, I'd say that switching samples is a questionable enterprise, because it is based on your personal judgement of what is a more or less "real" dialect/local variety. The samples were meant to show the condition of the modern local varieties of Swedish as they are, and they are all equally valid and "real", regardless of how Stockholm-influenced or pristine they are. --194.145.161.227 20:57, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

You write: "The samples were meant to show the condition of the modern local varieties of Swedish as they are, and they are all equally valid and "real", regardless of how Stockholm-influenced or pristine they are." I agree, but they should not be called dialects but local varieties of Standard Swedish. SweDia's definition is far too politically correct and popularized, and besides it's not in accordance with the article's current definition. (I seriously doubt whether the SweDia project is in accordance with the neutral scientific method. If people here had the slightest insight in dialectology, they'd realize this. Perhaps my feeling of being Josef K here is because I have a deeper knowledge in this specific field than other Wikipedians working on the article.) I am not sure why I am the one who should provide the specific sources since it is not my claims which are extraordinary.

All this debate can be easily resolved my redefining what a dialect is. See Pias post above where she questions the article's definition.

It's a bit difficult to solve a problem which has no yet well-defined formulation. Am I the only Wikipedia contributor who feels like one is debating with über-pedantic two-year-olds who know nothing but slavically following some rules?

Inorder to see the inconsistency between the definition of dialect and the provuided "dialect" samples in the article, one doesn't need a pile of sources to back it up. It's not "original research" to realize this inconsistency, but it's definitely "original research" to make the current claim in the article. Josef K finally got executed. When will my head roll?

Jens Persson (130.242.128.85 22:13, 15 November 2006 (UTC))

The inconsistency is admitted, and some sort of a disambiguation of the terms is desirable; now trying to solve this problem by re-defining and re-classifying dialects/varieties without the help of sources would be original research. As for your hint that Peter Isotalo and I are "über-pedantic two-year-olds", that is a PA in Wikipedian terms and, frankly, quite distasteful and useless in human terms. The rules are there for a reason - in particular for preventing cranks from imposing their personal opinions and theories on what is supposed to be a neutral and reliable encyclopedia (see NOR#Notes. You may feel that you are an unrecognised genius, that the noted researchers who conducted the Swedia project aren't as authoritative as you are, that your claims aren't extraordinary while others' are, and that Wikipedia's rules shouldn't apply for authorities of your stature. But keep in mind that all of these are your subjective opinions which can't be proved to be correct, hence can't serve as arguments here, no matter how vehemently you assert them. Concerning your head rolling - yes, violating the policies systematically does tend to get people blocked from editing. I am sure that you are very far from that stage and that you are a very useful contributor; I just wanted to remind you about the policies, because you didn't sound as if you were aware of them. --194.145.161.227 01:31, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I saw the Request for Comment and am therefore commenting. I don't know diddly about Swedish dialects, but I'm not at all pleased with the current statement, "The linguistic definition of a Swedish dialect is a local variant that has not been heavily influenced by the standard language and that can trace a separate development all the way back to Old Norse." The statement is unsourced; who defines it that way? "Dialect" is a notoriously ambiguous term in linguistics, so claiming one definition as "the linguistic definition" is inaccurate. John C. Wells proposed the term "traditional-dialect" for the dialects of English that come close to that definition, but "dialect" by itself can mean anything from that down to a cluster of similar idiolects within a standard language. —Angr 08:35, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

The statement is referenced at the end of the section. Like I pointed out recently, I've seen other definitions since writing the section, but the wording is almost straight from Engstrand's book on phonetics.

Peter ^Isotalo 11:20, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I think a book on phonetics is not the best source for providing definitions of concepts in dialectology. That would be like providing definitions of astronomical concepts in an organic chemistry book (the section where one discusses extraterrestrial lifeforms). The best source would be a pure dialectology book, e.g. Bengt Pamps Svenska dialekter. (I can't access it right now, though.)

Jens Persson (130.242.128.85 19:42, 16 November 2006 (UTC))

Choice of dialect samples

I'm attempting to section this discussion so we can discuss each issue separately. Please help me out on this one, as posts are getting very long and ungainly.

My choice of dialects back when I wrote most of the section more than a year ago was an attempt to provide a reasonable number of samples based roughly on the number of speakers and the degree of variation in each of the various dialect groups. I tried my best to compromise between representing as many dialects as possible and not cluttering the map too much. I was trying to be pragmatic. I'm sure that it doesn't fall into the category of "scientific methods", but then again, the purpose of the article is to give basic information on Swedish to laymen and to illustrate variation within the language, not to stand up to scrutiny though it was a scientific paper. I urge you to try to view this from the perspective of someone who doesn't know squat about linguistics or dialects. Peter ^Isotalo 12:10, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't think we should compromise scientific exactness just because most people reading an article like this one happen to me laymen. I might violate Wikipedia policies by valuing scientic exactness (unreferenced or not) higher than than the providing of sources (misinterpreted or not). Perhaps my struggle should be aimed at changing Wikipedia policies instead of improving specific articles.

Jens Persson (130.242.128.85 19:37, 16 November 2006 (UTC))

Definitions of Swedish dialects

I suggest that we start by making brief citations of various scholars and their views on Swedish dialects. Olle Engstrand is already cited in the article, but he's not a dialectologist as far as I know and the page cited is only of a brief summary of how a Swedish dialect would be defined.
Please keep it short and to the point and avoid including too much of your own opinions.

Peter ^Isotalo 12:10, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

We are playing with words here, and since the definitons of words tend to be different in different sources, it is a matter of opionion when chosing one path to follow. The important thing is to make the definition of the word dialect consistent with the samples used in the article. (Unfortunately, it would be original research to validate the samples.) I am sure that we must follow dialect in order to avoid an internal incosistency. Why would the definiton of a "Swedish dialect" be different from the general definition of a dialect here on Wikipedia? The extra thing is of course that "Swedish dialect" of course introduces the adjective "Swedish". That is what needs a source of some kind. Bengt Pamp's Svenska dialekter may provide an answer. (If it does, it should be acknowledged and valued higher than Engstrand's book since Engstand is no authority on dialectology, but phonetics.)

Jens Persson (130.242.128.85 19:51, 16 November 2006 (UTC))

In the beginning of the article, it says:

"While distinct regional varieties descended from the older rural dialects still exist, the spoken and written language is uniform and standardized, with a 99% literacy rate among adults."

Here one actually speaks about "regional varieties" vs "rural dialects". The samples are claimed to be (rural) dialects, while anyone who's got some insider knowledge of dialects (being a dialect speaker myself when I have the opportunity) knows that the samples mainly represent what here is called "regional varieties". It is clear that there's a severe inconsistency in the article, mainly caused by the randomly chosen SweDia samples. Shouldn't we simply mention that the samples range from being "regional varieties (of standard Swedish)" to being "(rural) dialects (descended from local varities of Old Norse)", or whatever formulation? This would be simpler than changing the definition of the term "Swedish dialect".

Jens Persson (130.242.128.85 20:05, 16 November 2006 (UTC))

Now when I think about it, why is the article loaded with specific "dialect" samples anyway? Should a general article on the Swedish language actually have such an amount of samples? The best thing would be to remove the samples completely and instead write something about the dialects, the most important general features of Norrländska mål, Sveamål etc. As the article is now, immigrant Swedish is explained in greater detail than the traditional dialects.

Proposition: Remove the samples and include a brief discussion on the defining features of the different dialect areas.

NB: I can't find any Wikipedia article called Swedish dialects (redirection). Does this mean we ought to start one? The Swedish dialects definitely deserve their own Wikipedia article. The Swedish language article shouldn't provide the only gathering information about them. (Obviously, someone made a bad decision deleting the formerly existing article Swedish dialects.)

Jens Persson (130.242.128.85 18:41, 17 November 2006 (UTC))

Are you sure?

Are you sure that /r/ can be pronounced as [ʐ] (voiced retroflex fricative)in Swedish? I am a native speaker and I and everyone I´ve asked have never heard something like that. We would consider it comical! 81.230.220.176 19:50, 11 December 2006 (UTC)