Talk:Pashtuns/Archive 19

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Hindu Pashtuns

The Journal of Asian History source that is used to argue against this is here

I also found:

"A Concise History of Afghanistan-Central Asia and India in 25 Volumes https://books.google.com/books?isbn=1490735941 HAMID ALIKUZAI - 2015 Found inside - Page 44 The Pashtuns speak Pashto, an IndoEuropean language. ... irreligious groups and minorities, especially since many of the Hindu and Sikh Pashtuns migrated from Pakhtunkhwa after the partition of India and later, after the rise of the Taliban."

Then there's this and this. Doug Weller talk 17:03, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

Hello :@Doug Weller: and fellow editors,

I am new but I have a lot of information about this topic with reliable sourcesCasperti (talk) 20:47, 3 February 2019 (UTC):

The Aljazeera Page you gave says "Ramnath, 25, explains that "this is because the culture among Afghan Hindus is predominantly Pashtun". their culture is Pashtun which I said I agree with but their ethnicity is not Pashtun. It even contradicts your support by seeing Afghan Hindus and Pashtuns separate. Correct me if I am wrong. And that second news article you use is again about that "blue-skinned" article but this time from a different INDIAN newspaper. Without any proof of anything, so not reliable as good source claiming the ethnicity. Yes, the people are now close to Pashtuns in culture but are not ethnic members of the community. They came from British India and their native language/ethnicity is Sindhi and Hindko (Punjabi dialect).

And I did not use the article of Rahman to support the claim. although he says it on page 170. The Alikuzai article in the Journal of Asian history has just 1 sentence with saying "Sikhs and Hindu Pashtuns" But he does not talk about them, I will give references and books about the Hindus/Hindki of Afghanistan specifically. I will give my sources right now: Number one: Which says: ″HINDKI, the name given to the Hindus who inhabit Afghanistan. They are of the Khatri class and are found all over the country even amongst the wildest tribes. Bellew in his Races of Afghanistan estimates their number at about 300,000. The name Hindki is also loosely used on the upper Indus, in Dir, Bajour, &c., to denote the speakers of Punjabi or any of its dialects. It is sometimes applied in a historical sense to the Buddhist inhabitants of the Peshawar Valley north of the Kabul river, who were driven thence about the 5th or 6th century and settled in the neighbourhood of Kandahar.″

Number two: Sikhs struggle in Afghanistan Where it says: ″The Sikhs were first brought to Afghanistan by the British in the 19th century and once dominated the Afghan economy″

Number three: Here you can read that their native language is Punjabi, still nowadays.

Number four: here it says: that the migration of Hindu community to Afghanistan was mainly from the neighbouring kingdom of Punjab, later a province of British India" Like I said before they are called Hindki in Afghanistan (or Hindokwans) and they are Afghans originating from Punjab. in the article it says they are Khatri Hindus who came from Punjab to Afghanistan (Khatris are part of the Hinduism of the Punjab area most of them converted to Sikhism but some stayed Hindu and some of them moved to other areas like Afghanistan and btw they are very merchant people) Again they are Afghans but not ethnic Afghans.

Number five: Shah Mahmoud Hanifi (11 February 2011). "Financing the Kabul Produce". Connecting Histories in Afghanistan: Market Relations and State Formation on a Colonial Frontier. Stanford University Press. pp. 95–102. ISBN 978-0-8047-7411-6. read pages 44-48, in this book the British diplomat Alexander Burnes in Afghanistan in the 19th century writes about the Khatri (Punjabi Hindu) Hindus of Afghanistan and where they came from etc. Again they are Hindki people which is noted by Burnes.

Number six: McLane, J. (2002). Land and local kingship in eighteenth-century Bengal (Cambridge South Asian studies, no. 53). Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. (2002). Retrieved February, 2019 page 131-133. Once again the explanation of the Hindu community in Afghanistan. Khatris were prominent merchants that dominated in the Afghanistan-Punjab region. This book even says there is a possibility that they were active in the Afghanistan region in pre-mughal times.

Number seven:Castes, Tribes, and Leading Families Excerpts from the Gazetteer of the Kohat District Contents In Pashtun and Afghan areas, they call Hindus and Sikhs Hindki/Hindkowans because of their Punjabi language (including the Hindko dialect). Some of them want to be called Pathans (maybe because of the change in culture also called Pashtunization) according to a population census in the Kohat District in Western Pakistan. Again, The Sikh and Hindu community among Pashtuns are Hindki people. Who are in culture close to Pashtuns/Afghans, therefore differ from their Indian Hindus in India.

This can go on with many studies and books...

Conclusion: The Afghan/Pashtun Hindu community are not ethnic Pashtuns. They are Hindkowan people who are also called Hindki. They are Punjabi people from the Punjab region (including the Hazara region) where they have moved towards Pashtun areas centuries ago. Their Population still speak their own native languages a Punjabi language variant. They lived and some still live throughout Afghanistan and Pashtun areas of Pakistan. Therefore, getting close to the native people. The Hindu community still speak their own language but are familiar with the local languages as well as Dari and Pashto. Which depends on which city they live in. They are not part of the Pashtun ethnic group but only to the Hindki and Hindkowan ethnic groups (which is the same group). They are close to Afghans/Pathans in culture. And are considered Afghan. But claiming they are part of the ethnic group Pashtuns (ethnic Afghans/Pathans) is not correct. I have given many sources and references and have more than this. The Hindus and Sikhs are from a separate ethnic group, therefore, it shouldnt be included in the Pashtun section. ( Visit Afghan hindus-sikhs at their homes you will hear their own native language among them, thats why they are treated as seperate ethnic group Hindki) So Sikhs are brought to Afghanistan in the 19th century while the Hindus have been 1 century before them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Casperti (talk • contribs) 14:20, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

Btw the "Hinduism" in the religion section was recently added. I saw 23rd march 2018. Because it was never there before that. That "blue skin" article is not reliable.

Let me know If you want want to discuss this further or anything else.

Casperti (talk) 20:47, 3 February 2019 (UTC)

For more information: Hindus and Sikhs of Afghanistan have adopted the Pashto language and culture as stated in Doughwellers Aljazeera article. But only that, they are treated as a seperate ethnic group. Here is another source of the many more: "Language Policy and Language Conflict in Afghanistan and Its Neighbors: The Changing Politics of Language Choice" see page 79. It emphasizes the fact that the Hindu and Sikh minorities in Pashtun areas have adopted the Pashto local language beside their own native language. If more explanation/sources/discussions are needed just Message me or react on this page.Casperti (talk) 16:56, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

And why you are edit warring? Your argument has been so incoherent so far that even I would not prefer responding any longer. The Hindki refer to Hindus and Buddhists of Punjabi origin who are settled in Afghanistan. This is a different group of people than the Pashtun Hindus, who are ethnically Pashtun, speak Pashto, and practice Hinduism, as well as Pashtunwali. There are other ethnic groups in Afghanistan, such as the Pashayi and Nuristani, who also once practiced Hinduism and Buddhism; before the Islamic conquest of South-Central Asia, these were the dominant religions in the region. The fact that a minority of Pashtuns continue to adhere to Hinduism should in no way be censored, especially when we have multiple references to attest to their existence, such as those provided by Doug Weller. Shashank5988 (talk) 19:50, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

Hello@Shashank5988:, Thanks for replying I am not edit warring (I have visited your page, you had many warnings I see, just saying). I tried to solve this through this talk page. And your knowledge about this is far from "Expert", The Pashayi and Nuristani people followed Buddhism and Hinduism?? I know the Kabulshahis and the Gandhara people were 100% Hindu in religion in the past but the Pashai, Nuristanis, Chitrali and Kalash were following their own Traditional religion. Where is your source of Hinduism??, try to solve it out here and give me the sources. I know Afghanistan was Hindu and Buddhist in the past. But there are no ethnic Pashtuns who follow Hinduism! Like all sources say. They are different but they are now speaking Pashto and have Pashtun culture. Like I say here above. For example the Khatri and Sikhs settled in Balochistan (Pakistan) speak Balochi. The Sikhs/hindus settled in Kabul speak Dari. (this is not a source I know but my parents were from Kabul and the Sikhs and Hindus were very kind merchant people. They were a minority with a lot of respect especially before the Mujahideen and Taliban, they are the ones who cause the 300.000 Hindus and Sikhs to fled. But you have Sikhs and Hindus in Kabul. They speak Dari and at home Punjabi. Like every source I give says!! The ones in Herat and Mazar e Sharif spoke Dari as well). The majority of them lived in Pashtun dominated areas so therefore those ones living there speak Pashto and ofcourse have their culture! A Turkish person who adapts the Dutch language and culture does not change to an ethnic Dutch person. Does it? I know some Sikhs and Hindus consider themselves as Pashtuns but that doesn't make them part of the ethnic group. They dont even intermarriage between the local population because of religion. So even in blood, they are not close to them. My point is again: Pashtun/Afghan in culture = Yes Ethnically Pashtun/Afghan= No National Afghans= Yes The 19th century British envoy Alexander Burnes gives a figure of 300.000 Hindus/Sikhs in Afghanistan called Hindki by the local population. Another source I gave to this page says they speak Pashto and have Pashtun culture. Even the Aljazeera page of @Doug Weller: says this. I give you 17th-century 18th-century 19th century sources 20th century and even 21th-century sources, from British envoys who visited Afghanistan (including Pashtunkhwa/Afghania region) to German, British, Afghan, Indian and American professors/researchers who visited Afghanistan for research. I gave you FATA's population census. But what do you give me? No sources at all! The only "proper" source is the one from theHindu.com.... "The friends from Peshawar would speak of Hindu and Sikh Pashtuns who had migrated to India. In the tribal areas – the no man's land between Afghanistan and Pakistan – quite a few Hindus stayed on and were protected by the tribal codes. The same was true in Afghanistan itself (till the mujahidin and the Taliban arrived)" This is the 2nd source (Dough used this as well see above). This does not go in the topic, therefore, Verify the credibility.

.... I saw the other sources and those don't even say Pashtuns have Hindus/Sikhs. They only say the Sikhs and Hindus consider themselves Afghan/Pashtun as well. Which I totally agree with! That's my whole point. And Take your time and read my texts and sources above, you didn't even read them. Please read them..

There are even Sikhs and Hindus in Iran brought by the british.. So what ethnicity are they?

@Doug Weller: Please Dough or another Admin please step in. This is the only Wiki page that is of importance right now for me. I don't want to edit other pages. Know I know why people say don't read everything on wikipedia. There are too many bad doers on wikipedia, believe me this is really of importance. I am even prepared to get an official document of the Afghan government to show that they don't consider the Hindu and Sikhs to Tajiks and Pashtuns. Because if Pashtuns have Sikhs and Hindus than the Sikhs and Hindus of Kabul are Tajiks??! This doesn't make sense, They speak their native language at their homes and in Kabul and Jalalabad there are even schools for them because they wanted to be teached in Punjabi. I am even willing to try contact the officials in the Afghan minority community and other institutes if necessary. To get this over with.., I showed the FATA and KPK consesus here above. That isnt necessary anymore. But if needed I will contact them as well. Let me know admin@Doug Weller: Casperti (talk) 00:22, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

This source talks about about Hindu Pashtuns from Kakar tribe. It may be suitable to add as a ref. Khestwol (talk) 07:51, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

@Khestwol: Hello, Well thats our whole discussion here. I don't see that source as reliable. The Hindustantimes and Hindu.com sources are talking about these "Blue Skinned Pashtuns" and they consider themselves Kakar in Balochistan. But there are enough sources where it states where they came from and that they adopted Pashto besides there Hindko/Punjabi.Casperti (talk) 10:27, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

see-the-blue-skinned-pashtun-hindus-brought-to-life-in-a-new-film/story-06d4flhpwXozoh9baYA0uJ.html

This ref also says they spoke Balochi? Have you read that? More proof that they are people who adopted the language and culture of the region they were in.Casperti (talk) 10:35, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

Main argument Yes they are Pashtun in language and Culture but they are ethnic Hindkowans. They came centuries ago > Settled in Pre-dominant Pashtun areas> Got Pashtunized by the tribes> Not part of the ethnic group.Casperti (talk) 12:31, 20 February 2019 (UTC) I have put many sources about the origin of the nowadays Hindus of Afghanistan. Afghanistan-Pakistan experts please read this page, Thank you.Casperti (talk) 12:31, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

Casperti, dismissing the sources that both Doug Weller and I provided doesn't help your case. The Hindu Pashtuns are not Hindu Punjabis. article makes that clear and also states that Hindu Pashtuns dressed differently than Punjabi Hindus, and were thus discriminated against by their neighbours for this reason:

Following Partition, around 400-500 Pashtun Hindus were resettled in Uniara (130 km from Jaipur), Chittorgarh and Punjab. ... After settling in India my grandmother’s clothing also became a point of contention amongst the people here. As a result, they started wearing clothes similar to that of their neighbours. They gave up a very important part of their culture to blend into the cultural fabric of their new land and sold their old Kakria Kameez for money to make ends meet.

Keep in mind that the population of Hindu Punjabis that migrated after the partition of India is much higher than Hindu Pashtuns, which is mentioned in this additional source. Shashank5988 (talk) 16:05, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

@Shashank5988: Hey man, yeah that's the whole point. They are indeed 1000% different from their Punjabi hindus. They have Pashtun culture. They speak Pashto, Dari or Balochi. They wear Afghan/Pashtun/Balochi dresses. They are very proud to be part of that culture and proud to be Afghan. btw that source doesn't say it has higher or lower number I can't find that.. Casperti (talk) 18:08, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

Read WP:OR and . There is no reason to remove The Hindu source. Shashank5988 (talk) 19:19, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

Read WP:TPG and stay on topic, again please give me an another reference besides given why it is wrong, with explanation? @Shashank5988:Casperti (talk) 22:15, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

Here is the documentary I was talking about, with interviews of Hindu and Sikh members of Afghanistan: This Afghan Sikh journalist is visiting both Hindu and Sikhs of Afghanistan. You will hear Punjabi and Hindko both. They will talk about their history as well. The ones in Kabul and Ghazni speak Dari and the ones he is visiting in Jalalabad cannot speak Farsi because they are fluent in Pashto and among themselves, they speak their own language as you can see. But they are in culture, dances, clothing and food the same as any other Afghans. The documentary is online available on multiple platforms. Here is the link of one of the institute who funded the documentary and the video itself is there: Mission Afghanistan- Documentary on Hindus and Sikhs of Afghanistan I hope this documentary made by an Afghan Sikh himself, helps the confusionCasperti (talk) 00:37, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

Here is the number I found of the Pre-war 20th-century estimate of the Hindus and Sikhs. The Hindki had a population of 300.000 individuals including Muslims, according to 19th and 20th century sources and in the book "Races of Afghanistan" written by H. W. Bellew. Among these people, 220.000 were Hindu and Sikh individuals as you can read here Nearly 99% Of Hindus, Sikhs Left Afghanistan in Last Three decades. I had already debunked this short quote "especially since many of the Hindu and Sikh Pashtuns migrated from Pakhtunkhwa after the partition of India and later, after the rise of the Taliban." This news article and news video of Tolo News explains the same thing. The Hindus and Sikhs of Pashtun dominated areas fled those areas. All Hindu and Sikhs of Pashtun dominated areas in Afghanistan have fled the country. There were 220.000 of them and most were settled in Pashtun dominated areas as Doughs Aljazeera source said. The news article explains this, Only the Kabul (Farsi), Ghazni (Farsi) and Jalalabad (Pashto) communities have remained.Casperti (talk) 12:40, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

Hi, i listened to the source posted above in Dari (Persian dialect spoken in Afghanistan). This source makes it quite clear that the Sikhs and Hindus living in Afghanistan are not ethnic Pashtuns. According to this source, 99% of the 220000 Hindus/Sikhs left Afghanistan because of the successive wars in this country, they are only 1350 of them still living in Afghanistan. cheers.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 21:44, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

Hello Wikipedians, it is quite clear there is a conflict in this matter because of the "blue-skinned Pashtun women" article. This 1 article with the old women has been debunked by 15+ reliable sources but is still not enough, according to a few editors. There is a link between those accounts and their interest, just by looking at their edits and Wiki names. To avoid edit warring. I will try to find more sources on these so-called "Kakar" see talk page: Talk:Kakar I will try to contact some institutes in Afghanistan and KPK whether they have more books on these Kakars (which I am sure about that they are Kakkar not Kakar, see Talk:Kakar). Because besides this 1 article there are no records to be found. I will update it later. Till then the 23-03-2018 edit can stand/or stand as disputed.Casperti (talk) 18:21, 23 February 2019 (UTC)

While none of your sources debunk that "1 article" or say anything opposite. Shashank5988 (talk) 20:34, 23 February 2019 (UTC)

I know reading can be difficult. I will summarize it for you what was explained here above

1. How the "Pashtun" "Tajik" "Afghan" Hindu community is actually called. (Hindki) 2. They are Bilingual. They speak their native Punjabi dialect and the language of the region they live/lived in, depending on the city. 3. Where they came from and their history. 4. That there is no census that includes them in "Pashtun". Not even in old British records. KPK, BSTAN and Afghanistan call them Hindki/Hindkwans. 5. Showed you a documentary link where an Afghan Sikh visits them in Afghanistan and once again explains their history etc. 6. Showed the census where there were 300.000 Hindu and Sikh in the 19th century before the Durrand Line and 220.000 of them in the 1970s. 7. Showed their actual language. 8. Showed you there are still Hindus in the Loralai Balochistan area, just look it up by yourself. They do not claim ethnic Pashtun or Baloch ethnicity. Despite their ability in speaking those languages and culture.

Should be clear right now. But like I said I need to find 1 clear source that directly debunks those "blue-skinned" ladies, so it can be 120% clear for you instead of 100%. I will find out give me 1-2 weeks. I will ask for some books. I will update it. Till then nothing will be changed/or it will stand as disputed, btw You changed in the religion section "religion in india" The native habitat of Pashtuns is not in India so I am editing that.Thanks.Casperti (talk) 11:30, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

After 2 weeks of Looking and reading for the Quetta Hindu kakars I have found it. The NWFP and Balochistan census before the partition: . It is noted that in Quetta and Loralai (Zhob) were living Hindus. You can see they are noted as "Hindu, Kakkar (Khatri)" showing thousands of individuals. There no other indications. There are no indications of them being Pathan/Afghan "Kakar", They clearly state that. (What a surprise). I have accessed and found this source from my University's intl online library of Journals, books, and reports. You can also see it on google books. Census of India, 1901, Volume 17. Baluchistan. Here are the other sources: And this book: From Quetta to Delhi: A Partition Story. All of these sources are directly about the Quetta, Loralai (Zhob) Hindus. So this time it is directly. Casperti (talk) 23:46, 8 March 2019 (UTC)

I looked up for the Sheen khalai film ladies and I found that they are the only ones claiming to be 100% ethnic Pashtun of all "Pashtun/Afghan" Hindus. the filmmaker is this called lady Shilpi Batra Adwani, she is on several Indian online articles claiming her things for her Film. It is rather a claim than a Historical or scientific fact. So it is better to state it as a claim because she is really the only one (with her grandmother and relatives). But I looked up if it is possible to put such things also on the wiki page WP:CON. So we can add that as well. Besides, Wikipedia should not take a claim of a Filmmaker in account as real real scientific evidenceCasperti (talk) 23:46, 8 March 2019 (UTC)

References

I did look at the sources and the arguments here and we are clear that we have reliable sources that verify the existence of a Pashtun Hindu minority in the region, such as this BBC documentary. As Anupam pointed out, Suhasini Haidar reported on this here:

The women are part of a community of Pushtun Hindus that lived in the Baloch areas of Quetta, Loralai, Bori and Maikhter, and belong to the Kakari tribes still living there. 1947 was a second partition for their villages, as the British-imposed Durand Line in 1893 had already given their villages to Pakistan, despite the people’s Pushtun lineage.

This source does verify that Hindu Pashtuns exist. Yet another source speaks to their presence and migration after the partition of India, even differentiating themselves from other Indians on the basis of their Pashtun identity:

Following Partition, around 400-500 Pashtun Hindus were resettled in Uniara (130 km from Jaipur), Chittorgarh and Punjab. By 1965, they started shifting to Jaipur (Shilpi was herself born and raised in Jaipur) and other parts of the country, where they had a hard time finding rented accommodation, while others weren’t entirely welcomed even though they were Hindu. Consequently, many of them found comfort in hiding their Pashtun identity, carrying themselves as Pakistani-Hindu women dressed in saris and salwar suits, while shunning their traditional Kakrai Kameez. They even spoke the local language but would teach Pashto to their children.

This is supported by another reliable citation, which states:

The friends from Peshawar would speak of Hindu and Sikh Pashtuns who had migrated to India. In the tribal areas – the no man's land between Afghanistan and Pakistan – quite a few Hindus stayed on and were protected by the tribal codes. The same was true in Afghanistan itself (till the mujahidin and the Taliban arrived).

The quotation clearly says that other Pashtuns recognized the Hindus who left as fellow Pashtuns. The sources that you are giving in no way contradict these ones that verify the existence of Hindu Pashtuns. Rather, they simply discuss another ethnic group from a different part of South Asia, Afghanistan, who are Hindu and Sikh--they have no connection to this group of Hindu Pashtuns. In conclusion, what you're trying to do is to conflate two different ethnic groups to make a WP:POINT that isn't supported by evidence. Wikipedia on the other hand, stands by reliable sources which confirm the existence of Hindu Pashtuns. Don't improperly claim that you have consensus. ML ^talk 18:31, 9 March 2019 (UTC)

@My Lord:

That BBC link is again about the same ladies making the same claim. But let's stay on topic. I have explained it all if you read, the thing here above.

Wikiaviani a third party, also verified the sources of mine. You are just keep pointing to those ladies.look at this: Mission Afghanistan- Documentary on Hindus and Sikhs of Afghanistan This explains it all What are the Kabul and Ghazni Sikhs then? Tajik Sikhs and Hindus? This does not make sense. Prior to 1947, there were no records of Ethnic Pashtun Hindus. Only Hindu Kakkar. Just look at the documentary and take your time. You will see the people and it explains it all. This Talk page really needs an Admin and more third parties who are familiar with Afghan-related topics.Casperti (talk) 00:02, 10 March 2019 (UTC)

Consider refuting the multiple sources I provided. So far Doug Weller, Khestwol, Anupam, Shashank5988, and myself have made convincing arguments to retain the information about the Hindu Pashtun minority in the article. We have consensus to keep it. ML ^talk 04:48, 10 March 2019 (UTC)

@My Lord:, Dough weller was not choosing sides. Look at my Talk Page or talk to him and ask him. Don't throw lies. Khestwhol was providing the same link again and did not choose sides, ask him. Only you, Anupam and Shashank5988 are against this for no reason. Just look at the documentary. It gives every information needed. You don't even take the time to do it, while every information is there. and this book as well:From Quetta to Delhi: A Partition Story it even explains what they actually are and that they identify themselves as Pathan: "My mother had defined herself as a Hindu Pathan from Quetta" but that they are not ethnic Pashtuns. Why are you not trying to accept this? I as an Afghan feel really stupid explaining this with 100000 sources and common knowledge about my countrymen (Afghan Hindus and Sikhs). Just look at the documentary, censuses, the Quetta Hindu Book where I got the quote from. ( I directly linked it to the quote in the book). This is more than enough. Only the film ladies of Sheen Khalai are claiming the ethnicity, so I took them as serious. Just look at the documentary and take your time. We editors should do that. Just read that book Quetta to Delhi: A Partition Story (the page with the quote) to get your answer or the documentary. Just watch it, or skip it bit by bit. Casperti (talk) 11:19, 10 March 2019 (UTC)

And please stop using VPN and letting it get accepted by Anupam. (Yes I can see that)Casperti (talk) 13:17, 10 March 2019 (UTC)

So far you are the only user engaging in this meaningless edit war. Don't expect me to reply to your answer your ridiculous  accusations which you are making in bad faith solely for the sake of your POV pushing. ML ^talk 16:39, 10 March 2019 (UTC)

POV? Can you please stay on topic. These sources are not a point of view just fact that are in front of your nose. Again watch the documentary or see the book of the Quetta Pashtuns. Can you debunk them? Can you debunk the other sources? The book Quetta to Delhi is the best one. It explains everything. It is just a fact. or just travel to Afghanistan. If you don't believe British Raj censuses, KPK censuses, Afghan censuses, the Hindus themselves, History books, Documentaries of themselves. Just take your time and look at it (the documentary or book quote that page I linked). Casperti (talk) 18:49, 10 March 2019 (UTC)

---

For the people who ask why Pashtuns got locked down: Because of this Dispute. So please take your time and read all above. ( if you are a third party, so non-Indian and non-Afghan sided editor, and have some little knowlegde about this please join in and give your third opnion) The main argument we have is mainly because of this source (They are also on several other Indian news outlets like theHindu.com and BBC Punjab): see-the-blue-skinned-pashtun-hindus-brought-to-life-in-a-new-film/story-06d4flhpwXozoh9baYA0uJ.html

The Ladies in the article are filmed for a film called "Sheen Khalai". They are trilingual and are Pashto-Speaking because they are from the Hindu community of Quetta, prior the 1947 Pakistan/India partition. But the thing here is they claim to be from the Pashtun ethnicity as well, according to their film and articles. The ladies say that they remember that they are from the Kakar Pashtun tribe and therefore are ethnic Pashtuns. But the problem is that the prior to 1947 there are no records to be found in censuses, and other British Raj sources, of Hindu members of the Kakar tribe. The only thing that was recorded in Quetta and Loralai are the Khatri Hindu Kakkars (see references above for the 1921 1901 censuses in British india, Balochistan). So that is the problem. They say that they are ethnic Pashtun instead of Pashtun, after 70 years. But no records are to be found. So if anyone has any about them, please add them. (not again the same Sheenkhalai film ladies but from a different Indian news outlet, Please). I agree they are indeed Pashtun and should be called Pashtun but making them ethnic Pashtun is not correct. because how should they call themselves to outsiders? They speak Hindko (Punjabi) but are also native in Pashto and are different from their Punjabi Hindus. We Afghans call them Hindki and they are registered as Hindki (Hindu/Sikh Hindokowans in KPK).

They should call and identify themselves Pashtun. Like it is said in this book: From Quetta to Delhi: A Partition Story, This book is about the Quetta Hindus (written by one) and it includes all information of who they are etc. "My Mother defined herself as a Hindu Pathan from Quetta, affirming cultural and regional identity over religious differences" So, again they should indeed Identify themselves as Afghan or Pashtun to outsiders because they are indeed different from their fellow Khatri Hindus. But they are not ethnic Pashtuns as it says in the book. And yes we are talking about the same people: the Hindus of Quetta But I will stop here so you can read the arguments above. Please take your time and read of both sides the arguments (the documentary I gave is recommended because it explains all). (btw all refernces in the refbox are mine.)

Please we need a solution or consensus because we are indeed talking about the same people and both have sources. So non-sided Third parties are more than welcome. Casperti (talk) 00:39, 11 March 2019 (UTC)

Sorry User:Casperti, but given the multiple voices who have chimed in the discussion, we already have consensus to retain the information. Continuing to state that WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT isn't helpful, but rather, disregards others who all feel that the information should be retained. Your personal interpretation of YouTube videos that amounts to synthesis and original research will not alter this consensus. You've been asked not to change the article until a new consensus is reached and you should respect that. As you were nearly blocked for edit warring (I requested that the article be protected so that it would not come down to this), my personal recommendation is that you WP:DROPTHESTICK and edit other articles. Remember that the threshold for including items on Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. We have multiple references that support the information in the article and will thus keep it. I hope this helps. With regards, Anupam^Talk 02:07, 11 March 2019 (UTC)

Anupam, the admins knew that it was just threatening of you guys. Again, we need third party opinion (You guys are Indian-editors (fact, seeing the names) and there is maybe a case of WP:NATIONALIST and the ungoing conflict between Pakistan and India is not helping the editors having a neutral point of view, therefore the admins locked down the page in order to get more attention for this and more third opinions.) . Otherwise, the admins would say to me to accept it. You guys are just showing again again the old ladies of Quetta. If you can send me verification of their story. Be my guest. I will work with the consensus.

My sources are not coming from the air (more than 20 sources). You cannot ignore them. Instead of saying we are right. Just say what are my sources and commonknowlegde then? The books about the Quetta Hindus? the documentary you refuse to watch? You can't ignore them. I don't care if you have verification, be my guest. I will accept it. No problem at all. Casperti (talk) 16:40, 11 March 2019 (UTC)

Your "sources" are based off of your interpretation of a YouTube video that is about some Punjabi Hindus in Afghanistan who are speaking Multani—the video interviewed people from Kabul and Jalalabad. It has nothing to do with Pashtun Hindus from Quetta, Loralai, Bori and Maikhter—all of which are in Balochistan (once in British India, now in Pakistan). These cities are thousands of miles apart from Afghanistan and you are treating them as if they are the same group when we have reliable sources that name the latter group as Pashtuns. This original research will not be tolerated here and you will be reverted accordingly. Your desire to censor information about the Hindu minority of Pashtuns reeks of agenda-driven editing. Shashank5988 (talk) 19:46, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

Hello @Shashank5988:, They are not Punjabi Hindus, you cannot call them "Punjabi" and don't call them Punjabi. I showed you censuses of British India and Afghanistan. I showed you the history of Quetta and Kandahar, reliable sources of the British, historians, Afghans, Scholars etc. They show you the Hindus of Quetta and the Pashtunistan area but still, you are not willing to accept it. They are for centuries in Afghanistan (so before the Durand line). After the Durand line, they are just referred to as "Pashtun" and "Baloch" Hindus in the areas of Pakistan. In Afghanistan, they are just called Afghan Hindus. You cannot call them Punjabi because they are different. Do you mean the documentary of the Sikh tv channel? My sources were even before I showed the Documentary and the documentary was just to show you their Languages and their history (centuries old). You are just not willing to accept it, that's all.Casperti (talk) 21:45, 27 March 2019 (UTC)

Hello @Shashank5988:, Here is the book of the Quetta area Pathan Hindus themselves. "From Quetta to Delhi: A Partition Story By Reena Nanda". This books says it all. I hope this helps. It is directly about the Quetta centuries old Pathan Hindu community. It explains their origin, ethnicity, why they call themselves "Pashtun", their cast and their history. (again they cannot be called Punjabi but they cannot be settled into the Pashtun ethnicity, we call them Hindki, they have their own ethnicity and it has already a page on Wikipedia).

Here is literally stated: "My mother had defined herself as a Hindu Pathan from Quetta, Affirming Cultural and regional identity over religious differences"

I hope this helps. Casperti (talk) 01:33, 28 March 2019 (UTC)

The source you provided further proves that the information about the Hindu Pashtun minority should be retained. It mentions that a Hindu Pashtun woman called herself as such; she did not call herself a Punjabi, Hindki, or anything else. It does not matter if you do not recognize her as Pashtun/Pathan, but that reliable sources do. The Hindu Pashtun minority discussed in the article are of the Kakar Pashtun tribe, are recognized by other tribal memebers as such, and also by the former president of Afghanistan, Hamid Karzai. Sources do not refer to them as Punjabi, Hindki, or anything else. Case closed. Shashank5988 (talk) 18:11, 28 March 2019 (UTC)

@Shashank5988:, Did you even read? The Quetta Hindus say it by themselves?! they state that they are Khatri Hindus so who are you to tell otherwise? It is better to not talk further with you. We should just wait for third-parties who are not sided. You did not even read the book, She states she is Khatri Hindu, who migrated to the Pashtun areas centuries ago, and that she is connected to "Punjabiyat" and she still speaks both languages. First read then talk. Reliable sources, you mean the same ladies for the same film again and again? I showed you more than enough reliable sources. Not just a few Indian-based newspapers that are promoting 1 article about the same ladies again and again.(btw Hindki/Hindkwan is used by their Muslim neighbors in general for Hindus-Sikhs in the Pashtunistan region. Not by themselves. It used to denote Pashto/Dari speaking Hindus of Afghanistan and former Afghan areas)

This citation here is of the Khyber Pakhtunkhwa (Kohat) census, Hindki is used by Muhmmadan Pashto-speakers to denote the Hindus and Sikhs who speak Pashto:

Hindus and Sikhs at the Census numbered 12,068. Of these 4,201 belonged to the cantonments at Kohat and Thal. The proportion of Hindus to Muhammadans for the whole district excluding cantonments is less than one to twenty. The proportions for the different tahsils are: Kohat, 1 to 18; Hangu, 1 to 12; Teri, 1 to 25.

Awans and the Punjabi speaking portion of the rural population are classed together by the Pathans under the general name of Hindki. As a rule the village artisans, the carpenter, the smith and the potter are Hindki, but in the remoter portions of Teri and Miranzai the artisans more usually claim to be Pathans and have been classified as such.

No Country For Kafirs? Balochi Hindus This link is about the "Balochi" Hindus. Should we now change the religion section of the Baloch now? based on this article, with its 1 line: Balochi Hindus? But I will stop and wait. I am tired of citing source to source. Even when the Quetta Hindus say it, you won't change. It does not matter this is Wikipedia, everyone can make mistakes.Casperti (talk) 21:39, 28 March 2019 (UTC)

From Quetta to Delhi, A Partition Story is a novel and you are trying to use that as a reference? In addition, where does it say that she is from the same Kakar tribe of Hindu Pashtuns that the sources everyone here provided mention? Besides, Quetta is a very large city so the Hindus that lived there are of many castes and ethnicities. Now, you are trying to use another source from the Khyber Pakhtunkhwa census of modern Pakistan to prove your false WP:POINT. Khyber Pakhtunkhwa is miles and miles away from Balochistan so what does that have to do with this? Additionally, Khyber Pakhtunkhwa was formed well after the partition of India--the land in that area use to be called the Northwest Frontier Province before 1947. None of the sources you've provided are convincing but your desperation to remove information about the Hindu Pashtun minority only highlights your prejudice. Shashank5988 (talk) 12:55, 29 March 2019 (UTC)

Its okay shashank, I know your agenda, "Quetta is a very large city, so the Hindus that lived there are of many castes and ethnicities" according to who? You? The census of Balochistan, Quetta (1920,1940) did not show Kakar Hindus either. Only Kakkar Khatri Hindus and Jatt Hindus (Pashto-speaking) are mentioned in the prior to partition British Raj censuses.(besides that book is not novel but a Biography of Quetta Hindus) But we will wait, I do not want to make this any longer with more sources, let it stand like this. We will wait for non-sided third parties.Casperti (talk) 19:21, 29 March 2019 (UTC)

Edit warring and unreliable source being forced into this article

It would appear that Anupam is using an unreliable source for the Indian Pashtun figure and it also appears that this user has been warned about India, Pakistan, and Afghanistan discretionary sanctions.
This user also appears to be making similar edits in other Afghanistan related articles. Anupam , please review your source. A dnaindia.com article is not a reliable source. The figure you are quoting is not seen anywhere else. I would strongly encourage you to revert your edit unless you find a more credible figure. WikavianiDlohcierekim --KamranHassanUK (talk) 04:15, 30 March 2019 (UTC)

user:My Lord Please review the Official Census of India source that was previously referenced in this article: http://www.censusindia.gov.in/Census_Data_2001/Census_Data_Online/Language/Statement1.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by KamranHassanUK (talk • contribs) 17:07, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

The statistic was provided directly from the All India Pakhtoon Jirga-e-Hind and is thus reliable for the number of Pathans in that country. ML ^talk 04:39, 1 April 2019 (UTC)

user:My Lord, I disagree with this. There is virtually no information about this organisation anywhere. A google search shows a facebook page with minimal content and a Wikipedia entry created by Anupam (same person) just a month ago. I fail to see how this is considered more reliable than the official census of India --KamranHassanUK (talk) 10:58, 1 April 2019 (UTC)

Anupam , User:My Lord, could you please spend some time to engage in discussion here. It's almost mandatory seeing as both of you have engaged in edits where you keep guiding and referring people on using the talk page, but then seem very absent yourselves. Thank you --KamranHassanUK (talk) 10:51, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

KamranHassanUK, the Census of India documents citizens in the country who can speak Pashto. On the other hand, the advocacy organization for Pashtuns in India, the All India Jirga-e-Hind, says that there are 3,200,000 Pashtuns living in India who are not yet citizens. Do you see the difference? Additionally, the All India Jirga-e-Hind seems to be well covered, with their chair being a granddaughter of Bacha Khan and documentaries covering the organization. [1] The statistic will be kept in the article. ML ^talk 04:23, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

I am aware of the difference but I am asking for a credible source seeing as you are removing an official Indian government source. An online article that quotes an organisation limited to a facebook page is far from credible. If there are 3.2 million Pashtuns in India, you should have no problem producing an official source. --KamranHassanUK (talk) 15:30, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

I agree with KamranHassanUK. You cannot change demographic statistics by using a source: a lady that says there are 3.2 million Pashtuns in India. Whether she is a famous person or a normal person. It is not a reliable source. A person in an interview can say anything. Use demographic statistics like censuses of official bureaus or reliable institutes who do the counting. Everyone can agree on this. Since when are we using sentences of living persons as DEMOGRAPHIC sources? But Anupam can be right because there are many descendants of Pashtuns in India (Rohillas, Afridis, etc etc) but he has to use a different Source. A perfect example is the wiki page of Germans. Germans in America have (descendants) after it. So you can use that in the combination of a good source. Not a sentence of a (famous) person/group. A Person can claim many things, especially in the Indian Subcontinent this phenomenon is very familiar, Using such claims as a source in a demographic statistic is not right. Everyone can agree on this. Casperti (talk) 15:52, 10 April 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for sharing USER:Casperti. The same can be said for Pakistani Punjab and Balochistan, which neighbors the Pashtun regions. There is no doubt a very significant number of people who can claim Pashtun ancestry but these people are not included in the official Pak census as Pashtuns. A popular example is the Pakistani prime minister Imran Khan who would be considered Punjabi as he does not speak the Pashto language and was born and raised in Punjab. Its disappointing to see the above users are now engaging in edit warring over the use of said sources. Since the removal of the official Indian census source, it has now enabled people to cite any random news article making unwarranted claims about population figures. KamranHassanUK (talk) 10:41, 24 April 2019 (UTC)

Subject–verb separation was 29 words

Between the subject and verb of the first sentence (Pashtuns... are) in this version, there were 29 words occupying the dot-dot-dot. I've moved two explanations of word origin into Notes, reducing this to a 17-word separation. Still too long, in my opinion, but better than it was before. Mathglot (talk) 02:11, 22 July 2019 (UTC)

GHURIDS AND KHALJIS

The ghurids ( debated) and khaljis (turk o afghan) should be mentioned before lodhi dynasty in the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.211.22.22 (talk) 07:48, 20 September 2019 (UTC)