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January 20

discharge tolerance of car battery

I know about deep-cycle batteries but this question is about ordinary car batteries. It's well-known that one should not deep-discharge a car battery as that messes them up. Sometimes it happens by accident though: someone leaves the lights on and you have to jump-start the car. My questions:

Just how bad is an accidental full discharge, like above? That happened fairly recently with a car that I sometimes drive (other people drive it too), and I'm not sure exactly how. The lights weren't on and the battery wasn't very old, but assuming it was accidental, did that probably decrease the battery's starting ability? Is there some common problem with batteries that can cause this to happen spontaneously? That incident was some months back and it hasn't happen again since.
How bad is it for the battery to partially discharge it on purpose, for example to recharge a laptop through the cigarette lighter without the motor running? Counting inefficiencies, let's say about 100 WH (8 AH, or maybe 10% of the car battery capacity) is withdrawn. This is somewhat related to my earlier question about off-grid power. It would be an occasional thing, not repeated frequently. Of course it would not be done twice without running the car for a while.

Thanks. 2601:648:8202:96B0:0:0:0:4FFF (talk) 23:15, 20 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

As far as I know, fully depleting a common (lead bases) car battery is bad. For a new battery, it won't kill it but it will reduce the lifetime.

How bad depends on a lot of things and can't be said without more info. One of the things to check is the voltage of the battery, both in use and not in use. For a disconnected, charged battery it should be above 12.4V (Note that some batteries have a higher rated voltage, check the label/manual). If it is below that after charging, you should seriously consider replacing it.

Another metric is the voltage during a (significant) load (engine off, heater/radio/highbeams etc. on). If it drops significantly during that load (e.g. more than 2-3 V) then that is also a bad indicator.

Regarding the partial discharge, most car batteries can be discharged to a certain level (e.g. AGM batteries should usually not be discharged below 60% of their rated charge). If you stay well above this limit (as 10% would be), this should not be a problem. Again, read the manual of your battery!

If you consider doing this more often, consider mounting an additional (deep cycle) battery in the car that gets charged by the engine (as a camper-van would have). Then you can pick a battery better suited for a slower discharge and if you empty it out, your car still starts (and with an appropriate shunt installed you could even emergency start your car on the deep cycle battery). Rmvandijk (talk) 09:45, 21 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. AGM would not be used for a car battery. The 10% discharge would be very occasional, though I could imagine doing a smaller discharge (like 1%) more often. The self-discharge of a few days is higher than that, so it can't be too bad. I didn't realize even AGM was supposed to be kept above 60%. Lithium ion is now economically competitive with AGM so I'd probably go for that instead. 2601:648:8202:96B0:0:0:0:4FFF (talk) 18:06, 21 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I don't understand what you mean by "AGM would not be used for a car battery". I wouldn't recommend you install an AGM battery in your car if it didn't come with one and the manual doesn't say it's compatible with one, since it's unlikely the car was designed to charge it appropriately, plus it's an added cost for no real utility etc. But AGM batteries are common in start-stop systems [1], especially in high end cars [2] [3]. For costs reasons, and with the increasing appearance of start-stop systems, lower end start-stop cars may use the so called enhanced flooded battery [4] we seem to lack any real article on. Nil Einne (talk) 08:12, 22 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I just meant AGM batteries are expensive and intended for deep-cycle applications. Of course you could use them in a car, particularly a hybrid car, but I was asking about the ordinary car batteries that are found in today's so-far still prevalent petrol powered cars. 2601:648:8202:96B0:0:0:0:4FFF (talk) 06:47, 25 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It's not too bad to discharge it. What's a problem is to leave it sitting in that state. Andy Dingley (talk) 19:15, 21 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting, thanks, that's good to know. 2601:648:8202:96B0:0:0:0:4FFF (talk) 07:44, 22 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

January 22

Does this type of wall panel fastening and the tool for it exists or was it made up for this movie?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRfoIyx8KfU&t=2m54s — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.82.36.100 (talk) 14:58, 22 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

There's a lot going on here!

The wall panels were actually held on with magnets (you can just see one in the middle). Also with grips standing behind, holding some of the ducts in place (there was so much springy duct in there that some of it was popping the panels off)

The tool he's using is a ratchet screwdriver, usually called a Stanley 'Yankee', although Spiralux made better ones. These long ones aren't just a ratchet, they have a long push action too. The idea is that you can hang drywall and similar jobs by pushing down on the handle, which rotates the ratchet, and only a couple of pushes will drive a long screw right in to soft timber. Overkill for this job, but they look cool on camera. Almost vanished these days, in favour of cordless electric screwdrivers.

The fastener (which isn't actually there) is most like a Dzus fastener, but they only need a quarter turn to open them (Unlike some fasteners, turning a Dzus too far just leaves it open though, it doesn't re-lock it).

I was at the UK premiere. Still one of my favourite films, and it was great to hear Gilliam talking about it. This was part of a short-lived film festival in Hull. The same week, Cleese filmed some of Clockwise in the same town, because Hull's station had the right sort of long platforms for filming a frantic chase scene on.

It's just a shame this film was never released in the US. Andy Dingley (talk) 18:16, 22 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia has an article at Yankee screwdriver, noting that the term is somewhat genercized, it appears it is used by many manufacturers to refer to ratcheting mechanical screwdrivers of a variety of specific designs. --Jayron 32 18:23, 22 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I vaguely recall seeing Elwood use a similar tool to open an electrical panel in an elevator in The Blues Brothers. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:23, 22 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

https://youtube.com/5AZQox85JLI?t=147

Yes, another Yankee. You can tell it's a Yankee because they're cooler. There's a lock ring on the body which allows you to retain the spring plunger, then release it and let it spring out (both films do this). OTOH these days, "you'll have your eye out" etc. A feature which wasn't widely copied.

Elwood then does the other thing you shouldn't do with a Yankee, which is to use it as a prybar or lever. As the spiral shaft is thin enough already, and has notches all along it to act as stress risers, any sort of bending on it will knacker it immediately. (This is one reason why nearly all the Yankee copies are better than the Yankee.) Andy Dingley (talk) 20:20, 22 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Elwood had no qualms about doing dangerous things, such as driving the car over an opening drawbridge; and, in the same scene as the screwdriver, using an aerosol can of glue with a cigarette lighter to make a blowtorch. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:19, 22 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you guys, interesting stuff. 91.82.36.100 (talk) 21:03, 22 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

January 23

Indigenous peoples of Europe

Are Germans considered the indigenous people of Germany, and likewise for other major European ethnicities? I read somewhere that the Saxon and Norman invasions of Emgland had a very minimal on the islands gene pool. If no European ethnicity is considered indigenous except the Sami, what is the justification for this? déhanchements (talk) 10:04, 23 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Ethnicity is not a genetically determined thing; it is a social and cultural one, so tracking the spread and influence of ethnicity is not really based on studying gene pools. Ethnicity is also neither static nor unchanging, so what constitutes a particular ethnic group (as with any similar cultural grouping system) depend entirely on a specific moment in time and place. For example, while ethnic groupings like "German" or "English" may make sense in 21st Century Europe, they would have been nonsensical in, say, 2nd Century Europe. You may want to read the Wikipedia article titled Ethnic groups in Europe for a starting place for your research. --Jayron 32 13:17, 23 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"

So basically the Celts inhabitated Germany and modern Germans came from Southern Scandinavia, interesting. déhanchements (talk) 20:14, 23 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

But (in case that was your conclusion) there is no reason to consider the Celts "indigenous" either. The first Celts (who were Indo-Europeans) killed, displaced or absorbed the people who were previously enjoying the same land there. And those pre-Celtic people themselves displaced earlier people, etc. All the way from the arrival of the first modern human, who replaced the neanderthals. --Lgriot (talk) 20:54, 23 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It makes me wonder why anyone is considered indigenous to any place. déhanchements (talk) 05:54, 24 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Because the above arguments against indigenousness depend on reductio ad absurdum and thus are not particularly useful. In general, a group of people would be considered Indigenous peoples if "they maintain traditions or other aspects of an early culture that is associated with a given region" and "they are generally historically associated with a specific territory on which they depend." It is broadly true, but not usefully so, that one could consider that there is no such thing as any indigenous people anywhere because there's basically no where on earth where the very first culture to settle an area still exists. Still, one can set reasonable limits on looking at indigenousness on more reasonable time scales rather than "forever", in that case its quite reasonable to consider the English people to be the indigenous people of the land we call England, the French for the land we call France, even if we can find a time in the distant past where those people groups didn't exist at all. Setting a reasonable limits for the "recent past" helps to develop a more useful definition of indigenousness that allows us to study, understand, and work to correct the problems created by the oppression of indigenous cultures by their colonizers. Fields of study that deal with these issues broadly include things like sociology, anthropology, ethnology, cultural studies, etc. --Jayron 32 16:09, 24 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

January 24

Belgian bus

Today I heard a Dutch person allude to a seemingly well-known joke, "the Belgian bus with many drivers and one passenger." Is there any more to the joke than that? —Tamfang (talk) 02:21, 24 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

There's an English language idiom about excessive bureaucracy "Too many chiefs and not enough Indians" if was to take a wild guess at the meaning of the Dutch idiom you note, it may mean something similar. But after a good faith search, I can't find anything resembling your idiom.--Jayron 32 02:37, 24 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It also sounds like a shot at their neighbors, like the way the English make fun of the French. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:26, 24 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Someone writes: "Background for those not from The Netherlands or Belgium: good-humored rivalry between the two countries has produced many jokes with the Dutch calling the Belgians stupid, and Belgians calling the Dutch cheapskates".[5] I'm not sure if this has anything to do with the "joke" in question. Bus stop (talk) 04:35, 24 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Not just from Belgium, as with expressions like "Dutch treat". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:19, 24 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, Dutch treat. Bus stop (talk) 05:25, 24 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not familiar with the particular joke, but Belgium is quite famous for having a very complicated system of government, see Communities and regions. Apart from that, they don't have a major-minor party and have a quite splintered political environment with the Flemish nationalistic party on one side and the Wallonian version(s) on the other side, so forming a government without any big party to take control has taken ages in the past (541 days is the record). Quite interesting, having an ex-office government without mandate to implement changes resulted in better economic growth than having a "working" government. Rmvandijk (talk) 09:12, 24 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Here are some jokes Dutch people make about Belgians. You can draw your own conclusions. Alansplodge (talk) 17:49, 24 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The Belgian revenge:

– Why do the Dutch love Belgian jokes?

– They are cheap.

--Lambiam 15:33, 25 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

January 25

Convenience food

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthy_diet#Harvard_School_of_Public_Health Exactly why is convenience food bad for you? Just a question for health education purposes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:8003:7427:6B00:E96B:2EBD:D7F0:150E (talk) 09:33, 25 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

You could look at our article on the topic, or (even better) check with the textbook for the health class you've clearly gotten homework for. Ian.thomson (talk) 09:48, 25 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Or Google "why is convenience food bad for you?". Alansplodge (talk) 10:14, 25 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe this is a better question how is it possible to determine if certain foods are processed or not? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:8003:7427:6B00:7DB7:C0B2:35A8:58A6 (talk) 11:33, 25 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The list of ingredients usually gives this away. A sure sign is a long list of terms you do not recognize as standard ingredients for the kind of food, such as high-fructose corn syrup, xanthan gum, carrageenan, maltodextrin and soy lecithin. Not all ingredients that are allowed are generally recognized as safe, including trans fats (often presented as partially hydrogenated vegetable oils). And being "generally recognized" as safe is not the same as being actually safe. A problem with most highly processed foods and other convenience food is the low nutrient density, that is, the low ratio between on one hand soluble fiber and many of the micronutrients needed for remaining healthy, and on the other hand the caloric content (called, for that reason, empty calories). Eating primarily such foods leads to malnutrition because of vitamin or other nutrient deficiencies, or obesity, or both. --Lambiam 15:27, 25 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Just have a question on article saturated fat that relates to this when they say this "Many prepared foods are high in saturated fat content, such as pizza, dairy desserts, and sausage." Do they mean convenience/processed food? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturated_fat.

Yes. In this context, "processed" and "prepared" generally mean the same thing, though there are a couple of edge cases, like subs, prepared salads, etc. where it's going to vary from case to case. Matt Deres (talk) 15:49, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It's not a black and white issue. Food provides nutrition. Even if certain ingredients aren't implicated in harmful effects the question is their usefulness. Ingredients may be chosen for reasons unrelated to nutrition, such as shelf life. A long manufacturing, packaging, and distribution (shipping) process imposes constraints on food products that could result in foods that are less than ideally nutritious. Consistency of product could be prioritized in widely distributed food products. This could require the addition of stabilizing agents—which may not necessarily be of optimal nutritional benefit given the nominal food under consideration. Also see Gums and Stabilisers for the Food Industry. Bus stop (talk) 19:17, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

January 26

poems

Most pages in the category Category:Poems don't insert the whole poem in the article. If you create an article on a poem, can you include the entire poem if its a long poem? 92.0.200.60 (talk) 00:26, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Clearly it's permissible, providing it is not in copyright; high profile poems such as The Raven and Kubla Khan include the full text. If you're considering writing an article about a poem or adding a poem to an existing article, though, I would point out that we have a project specifically designed to be a repository of non-copyright works called Wikisource. Matt Deres (talk) 00:54, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Rugby Sevens

How are the 5th to 8th placed teams determined in Rugby Sevens?

Scotland came in 8th place in South Africa last December, with Argentina in 5th, Ireland in 6th, and Kenya in 7th places. May I be reassured that Wikipedia hasn’t lost the ability to properly record the results of Rugby Sevens Tournaments?

What I mean is that Scotland technically did better than Argentina if you look at the results closely of the Pool statue, as we had 8 points as opposed to their 7. Also, why isn’t Wikipedia recording the results of the 9th place thingy?

I can’t see how it is possible for Argentina to be above Scotland when the two teams hadn’t met at any point in this tournament? What in the name of goodness is going on here?

I look forward to your replies, I hope to hear from you soon. Pablothepenguin (talk) 01:01, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

You may want to specifically ask the editors at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Rugby union, who should be maintaining the rugby sevens articles. If you are referring to 2019–20 World Rugby Sevens Series and 2019 South Africa Sevens articles, my guess would be that it is because the official web site is also not clear on how 5th to 8th is determined either. Looking at the results of South Africa, apparently they got rid of the "fifth place bracket" (as seen on last season's article 2018 South Africa Sevens#Fifth place), but I am having trouble finding the current 2019–20 rules. The bottom of information page still links to the old 2018 rules! So it looks like we are left with just that little information there is on the standings page. Wikipedia cannot report what is not documented elsewhere. But again, I suggest you ask at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Rugby union. Zzyzx11 (talk) 03:22, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Wherever the OP asks, it would help a great deal if they provide links so we can know WTF they're talking about. According to our article which has not been edited since December [6] Scotland made 7 points (from 2 wins and one loss) in the group stage (not 8) with a zero net points scored difference. Argentina was also on 7 with a net 52 points scored difference. Ireland did have 8 points (finishing top of their group due to their better net points scored difference) as did Kenya (finishing second to Ireland), so you might debate their position but not so much Scotland. Our results are consistent with the official ones too [7] Scotland where not even in the 2019 South Africa Women's Sevens so I guess the OP isn't referring to that. Nil Einne (talk) 04:12, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

BTW, I see that Scotland did lose to New Zealand the tournament winners, while Argentina lost to France who were in third place, so I guess by that token you could say they were better. But OTOH, Scotland ended up with a -16 points scored differential after the quarterfinals compared to Argentina's +43, Ireland's 0, and Kenya's -2. (If I had to guess, this was probably how the placings were decided.) Nil Einne (talk) 07:41, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

January 27

Barbie princess pauper

I understand that classic is a word that's thrown around a lot and opinionated. I asked a lot of questions on here not realising the term isn't what I thought it would be. I thought it was certain things old still popular and valuable. However I gave up on the word because it's pointless living your life believing this word could help you get better with people. But anyway one day I was on here looking at barbie princess pauper its considered to be best barbie film but does that mean its a classic?https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbie_as_the_Princess_and_the_Pauper.