Talk:Croats

Archive 1 (-November 2006)

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Croatian upper estimate

I've said it before and I'll say it again. The reference does not state there is a total of 9 million Croats in the world. Somebody simply added the reference's statement of 4 million Croats living abroad to the 4 million census population of Croatia. Do not return this number unless the source says, specifically, that 9 million Croats live in the world. Horvat Den 08:36, 6 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Are you an idiot, or do you enjoy pissing people off? The number of Croatian citizens abroad are not counted twice. The number is estimated this large because it counts all people who have at least partial Croat ancestry (people such as myself since I am half Croat). -

King Ivan

08:39, 6 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You have no idea what you're talking, as most blind nationalists don't. Look at what the source says. "4.5 million Croats live abroad." This does NOT mean that we can simply add 4.5 million to the population of the coutnry of Croatia and get a random number. In the 4.5 million abroad inclue literally hundreds of thousands of people who are simply working abroad and are counted TWICE in the population abroad and the Croatian census. Furthermore, the other source, is from an ethnologue report. I don't need to reiterate for the billionth time what that means. Horvat Den 08:44, 6 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You really are a troll aren't you. This page is about an ethnic group, NOT people who are merely citizens of Croatia regardless of ethnicity, so you're argument about foreign workers is flawed since there are Croatian citizens who aren't Croats who live abroad. Also, you really need to learn how to speak English properly since it is hard to communicate with you. -

King Ivan

08:49, 6 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Everyone, please keep WP:CIVIL. I addressed the issue on my talk page once before. If one counts just the censuses and estimate numbers abroad (without Croatia and BiH), the figure is around 1.2 mil, which summed up gives 5.7 mil, roughly corresponding with Ethnologue's guesstimate of 6.2 for Croatian speakers. Like Ivan said, the remainder is attributed to persons of Croatian ancestry, chiefly in the New World—while many abroad workers in Western Europe tend to return to the country, those from New World practically always stay there.

The phenomenon of double counting, to which Den tries to attribute the number inflation, perhaps exists, but it's not so statistically significant. Take Austria (page 7) as example: counting together, there is total of 45,000 Burgenland- and "mainland"-Croats of Austrian citizenship but 105,000 Ausländer. However, I'm not sure if Croatian census takes those into account at all. There might be a "double counting" error of 100-300,000 but, taking into account fuzziness of the numbers, it hardly matters. The number of Croatian citizens residing outside of Europe is very small, so that the "double counting" hardly can contribute to the numbers.

I see that Croatian Emmigrant Adresary [1] have updated their site since the reference was added (ref 23 updated by myself), and addresses the issue "hitting the nail":

Prihvaćen je podatak da izvan granica Republike Hrvatske, u susjednim državama i diljem ostalih europskih zemalja i širokog svijeta, živi isto toliko Hrvata koliko i unutar državnih granica. Dakle, 4,5 milijuna ljudi hrvatske narodnosti ili podrijetla. Ta je procjena uvelike pretjerana, a pošto ne postoje bolje mogućnosti statističkog određivanja, prihvatljiv je kriterij da se smatra Hrvatom svaku osobu u svijetu koja po zakonu ima pravo na hrvatsko državljanstvo. A takovih osoba ima preko 1 milijun u Europi, više od 2 milijuna u Sjedinjenim Američkim Državama i Kanadi, 500.000 u Južnoj Americi te 300.000 u Australiji i Novom Zelandu. Od njih oko 25 posto govori ili razumije hrvatski.

I'm lazy to translate it at the moment, but I'm willing to if requested. Duja► 11:39, 6 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Duja, I appreciate your input, but one must think through the logic of this for a moment. Where would the 4 million Croats be!? There's 300,000 or so in the USA and 500,000 in Germany and probably AT MOST 500,000 in Australia. That still leaves over 2 million! So the double counting (or the counting of nonethnic Croats) is definitely not negligible. Horvat Den 19:35, 16 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]