Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard/Archive301

Reliability of claims about oneself

A notable person has reported via social media that they "think" they came down with COVID-19 and they recovered. They were not tested, they did not mention consulting a health care professional, they simply made a prudential determination that they suffered from the coronavirus, and brought up the subject in public. This social media report has been carried by normally reliable news outlets. Is it prudent for us to mention this in their biography? What about categories, lists of people with COVID-19? How far can we stretch credulity of people making claims about themselves? Elizium23 (talk) 06:21, 25 March 2020 (UTC)

I'd suggest skipping it for a couple of weeks and then see if reliable sources are still talking about it. My guess is that by that time, succumbing to the pestilence will become even more commonplace than it is now. The effort put in to writing up relative trivia about individual celebs would be better spent on the members of Category:2019–20 coronavirus pandemic by country and territory. (I've looked at a small number of these and have been very impressed by what I've seen there.) -- Hoary (talk) 07:36, 25 March 2020 (UTC)

No, not unless a secondary source has commented on the significance of the claim, that is, what real-world event was influenced by the claim. The person can (and apparently has) make claims on social media but an article is not another social media outlet. Johnuniq (talk) 06:12, 26 March 2020 (UTC)

Secondary sources are few and far between in BLPs. Most BLPs are composed entirely of primary news reports. Elizium23 (talk) 06:21, 26 March 2020 (UTC)

Primary sources are ok for core facts such as birth date, academic qualifications, employment, etc. When wondering about an issue like the one in question (should someone's thought bubble be added to the article?) a primary source is not adequate because not every factoid should be in an article and primary sources are obviously going to report any space-filler. Johnuniq (talk) 06:33, 26 March 2020 (UTC)

Most commonly, we are getting details on a person's life because they have been interviewed by a reliable source and given that information to that source. This has been argued at other boards whether that interview (whether a Q/A format or a summary) is a primary or secondary, but I will argue it meets our secondary meaning given it is transformation - it is the BLP giving a summary of their life to the interviewer. We'd prefer this form as the interviewer will give focus on the most relevant details (eg they may skip over the half-year a person worked as a bagging clerk before college as irrelevant to being a politician for example). Where there are interesting non-subjective facts as Johnuniq points, then direct information from the BLP themselves is fine, but this should be seen as the glue to fill in spaces left by the secondary sources, not the foundation to build a BLP's biography on. If we're doing the latter, that begs the question if the person is really notable. --Masem (t) 18:13, 26 March 2020 (UTC)

My basic view is that this is too frivolous to include anywhere (WP:INDISCRIMINATE), and I suspect the RS coverage you mention probably consists of frivolous celeb-gossip level non-news. However I might reconsider if the coverage was big enough and serious enough, likely for some reason not included in the question here. And in that case 'claims about oneself' would be pretty much irrelevant, as we would be summarizing whatever significant things the sources were saying. Alsee (talk) 19:16, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

Tjalf Sparnaay

I happened across this article on realist artist and painter Tjalf Sparnaay and was startled to read in the lede: "stripper"? The tense "is" does not support this term; and by all means I cannot find anything in the article or online to suggest the BLP to be a stripper. Is there something being "lost in translation"? Maineartists (talk) 01:42, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

It was vandalism so I've reverted it. Woodroar (talk) 02:10, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

Thanks, Woodroar. But now there seems to be 2 Early life sections? Maineartists (talk) 02:35, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

The text was identical so I removed one of them, too. Woodroar (talk) 03:09, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

Joshua Ip

The subject's name has been repeatedly edited to his real name rather than their better known and more page-relevant pen name "Joshua Ip". This violates the following policy on privacy of living persons' names:

"Caution should be applied when identifying individuals who are discussed primarily in terms of a single event. When the name of a private individual has not been widely disseminated or has been intentionally concealed, such as in certain court cases or occupations, it is often preferable to omit it, especially when doing so does not result in a significant loss of context. When deciding whether to include a name, its publication in secondary sources other than news media, such as scholarly journals or the work of recognized experts, should be afforded greater weight than the brief appearance of names in news stories. Consider whether the inclusion of names of living private individuals who are not directly involved in an article's topic adds significant value. " — Preceding unsigned comment added by Desapar (talk • contribs) 07:32, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

Jimmy_Dore

extremely biased defamatory comments https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Jimmy_Dore&type=revision&diff=947879083&oldid=947627022 SeventhHarmonic (talk) 01:09, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

This was vandalism which was quickly reverted by another editor. Feel free to revert this type of thing yourself. Neiltonks (talk) 12:24, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

Dating material at the Raven Goodwin article

Some back and forth on dating stuff going on at Raven Goodwin (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views). Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 02:42, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

This seems to be a case where IPs were probably improving the article, but unfortunately reverted. See talk. (The earlier edits were problematic since they were clearly unencyclopaedic but in some ways were also an improvement since it seems more likely they were correct about her fiancé's name.) Although to be clear, I'm not complaining about any editor's actions. I understand how easy it is to check one source and assume that the others say the same thing, especially since some of the edits were fairly poor and the IPs just said stuff like do a Google search etc rather than noting the source discrepancy. Nil Einne (talk) 13:40, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

Elizabeth Tan (English actress)

Long term ownership by promotional accounts; at least one edit in the past was by an IP claiming to be the actor's agent, but it's fair to say that the COI involvement has been more widespread. I've cleaned this up a bit, but more eyes and critical faculties will be welcome. 2601:188:180:B8E0:DC8C:D31D:1DDB:9A1A (talk) 21:05, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

I've edited it to cut back on the puffery and name-dropping, and watchlisted it. Neiltonks (talk) 12:22, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

Thank you, Neiltonks. JJMC89 also blocked the most recent disruptive account. 2601:188:180:B8E0:65F5:930C:B0B2:CD63 (talk) 14:51, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

Gwenno Saunders

Small dispute with @Iridescent: - should Gwenno Saunders be described as 'Cornish' in the lede? I say no per WP:MOSETHNICITY - we do not describe people by their regional heritage/origin (she was born & raised in Wales but has Cornish heritage). Lots of people are famously associated with a city/region, that does not mean we describe them as such in the lede. GiantSnowman 20:34, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

No idea what this is doing here - this is just yet another case of GiantSnowman being disruptive for the sake of being disruptive - bus as I've already explained (and had ignored) WP:MOSETHNICITY doesn't say what GS thinks it says. "Unless it is relevant to the subject's notability" applies here; as I've already said on GS's talkpage, her notability derives almost entirely from Y Dydd Olaf (partly in Cornish) and Le Kov (all in Cornish), and she's almost certainly the most famous Cornish artist in any medium. If not for those two albums she'd just be "the one who was in a couple of incarnations of the Pipettes". Removing the fact that a Cornish artist famous for Cornish-language work is Cornish is straightforward tendentious editing. ‑ Iridescent 20:41, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

I note the article was created on 26 November 2006 and didn't become "Cornish" until this edit on 18 October 2019. She was notable in 2006 as a musician; the fact she is now also known for recording music in Cornish language is irrelevant. GiantSnowman 20:44, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

Oh and for the avoidance of doubt - I have nothing against mentioning her Cornish-language music in the lede. What I oppose is describing her as "Cornish" in the lede. GiantSnowman 20:46, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

Barack Obama is notable for being the first African-American President. However, he is (rightly) described as "an American politician" in his lede - and his article is a Featured Article! GiantSnowman 20:52, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

He is also (rightly) described in the lede, in the very next sentence, as: A member of the Democratic Party, he was the first African-American president of the United States. Now what, GiantSnowman? Mr rnddude (talk) 17:12, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

'Gwenno Saunders is a Welsh/British musician, known for being a member of The Pipettes and for her Cornish-language solo albums' or similar would be appropriate, would it not @Mr rnddude:? Now some other questions to answer: If she is only notable for her Cornish, why did she have an article for 13 years before she was described as Cornish? How come she only 'became' Cornish in October 2019? What happened that month to change the situation? Did Cornwall gain independence from England? GiantSnowman 17:57, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

RfC: Appropriateness of the redirect Barack Osama

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

WP:SNOW -- an obvious "no", via the discussion here in combination with the previous results. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 19:17, 30 March 2020 (UTC)

---

The redirect Barack Osama and its lowercase form Barack osama were deleted 8 times in total, always per G10 or a similar rationale except for one G1 in May 2007, before being salted in June 2008 and March 2009, respectively.

On the other hand, this typo is common enough (example 1, example 2) that it may actually warrant a redirect despite this, like its counterpart Obama bin Laden/Obama Bin Laden/Obama bin laden that have been kept three times at RfD.

In brief: Should Barack Osama/Barack osama exist as a redirect to Barack Obama? –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 04:59, 24 March 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose. Absolutely not. — Richwales (no relation to Jimbo) 05:08, 24 March 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose. Seems like an effort to make a political point. At this point, people know his real name. The primary valid redirect would be a misspelling of Barack (like Barrack) or Obama and Osama is not a misspelling, it's pejorative. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 05:07, 24 March 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose even if we ignore political considerations the fact fact that it appears that after being salted no one contested either of the deletion for over 10 years strongly indicates that people aren’t misspelling Obamas name in that manner making the redirects pointless.--69.157.252.96 (talk) 05:44, 24 March 2020 (UTC)
• Please don't waste editor's time with nonsense like this. Johnuniq (talk) 06:59, 24 March 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose How do you accidentally type that? “B” and “S” aren’t even close to one another on the keyboard. You know what I’m gonna have to call on this one. ~ HAL333 05:03, 26 March 2020 (UTC)

  "B" as in "B", "S" as in "S"? Elizium23 (talk) 05:24, 26 March 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose - Nah, even if someone accidentally types Barack Osama into the search field, his name still appears in the search results, along with other results, let them choose the article they want based on the search results. And also, once you start to type in the name Barrack and the letter O...the first suggestion is Barrack Obama. And also agree with Johnuniq. Isaidnoway (talk) 13:12, 26 March 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose: This strains credulity. — Javert2113 (Siarad.|¤) 16:08, 26 March 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose per HAL333. If a reader somehow managed to genuinely innocently confuse Obama's name as Osama, showing them the search results would do more to help them recognize their mistake than a redirect, so the lack of redirect would be doing them a favor. Sdkb (talk) 18:05, 26 March 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose Can't see how "Osama" could be anything other than a politically motivated nickname that we shouldn't recognize for Obama. There's no logic to consider it a type or a misunderstood/phonetic misspelling. --Masem (t) 18:08, 26 March 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose per the above and it's time for a withdrawal of the proposal or a WP:SNOW close. Newyorkbrad (talk) 18:09, 26 March 2020 (UTC)
• Comment: I tend to agree that this is probably just some politically motivated crap-slinging just to, I don't know, get a laugh, but I do seem to be missing one valuable bit of info that is actually factual, and that is just how many hits does this redirect get on any average day? I tried checking, just to satisfy my own curiosity, but apparently the new pageview tool doesn't allow me to check redlinks anymore. (The old one did.) That would seem helpful to know for a question like this. But that aside, it's really not necessary to have redirects for every possible misspelling of a word or name. I can see using them for commonly misspelled names, like Mississippi or Tennessee, but I wouldn't go out of my way to think of every possible typo, and on those grounds alone I also oppose. Zaereth (talk) 19:06, 26 March 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose per Sdkb: if a reader genuinely confused the two, it would be much better for them to see it corrected in the search results than to assume that it was correct because of a redirect. Kohlrabi Pickle (talk) 15:57, 30 March 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Raquel Dancho

This is the Wikipedia page of a recently elected Canadian Member of Parliament, and it essentially reads like something out of her campaign ad. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.161.170.219 (talk) 23:06, 30 March 2020 (UTC)

I agree. This article needs a lot of work to make it encyclopedic. It reads like an autobiography, with telltale signs that it was likely written by the subject or someone close to the subject. For example, most of it is unsourced, it contains info only the subject could possibly know, and is written from an egocentric spatial-perspective that turns it into a first-person narrative. The tables showing election stats are extraneous and should be cut. It focuses more on her personal life than on any political stuff. (Not too different from whatever that is someone posted one section above this, that I just deleted.)

I don't have time to fix these issues myself, but you most certainly can. Just find some good sources, add what relevant info you can, and whittle away everything that's not found in them anywhere. I hope that helps. Zaereth (talk) 23:44, 30 March 2020 (UTC)

It's a copypaste of [1]. I've reverted and revdel'd it. Connormah (talk) 23:50, 30 March 2020 (UTC)