Talk:Abraham Lincoln/Archive 29

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Typo - "rgar" for that

The page says: "Attempts at compromise followed. Lincoln and the Republicans rejected the proposed Crittenden Compromise rgar was contrary to the Party's free-soil platform." It seems obvious that "rgar" is a qwerty-keyboard typist's shift over error for "that".

Also, "Indeed, the most ample evidence to the contrary has all the while existed and been opnen to their inspection." Here open was likely intended.

I am not privileged enough to edit these on the main page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.66.109.208 (talk • contribs) 18:59, 23 February 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 25 February 2019

Inside Lincoln's bio section, Andrew Johnson, his second vice president, is not linked. |vicepresident = [[Hannibal Hamlin]]<br>(to Mar. 1865)<br>[[Andrew Johnson]]<br>(from Mar. 1865) Jordanlees2 (talk) 19:07, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

Jordanlees2,  Done. ―MattLongCT -Talk-^☖ 19:14, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

Error in date of death for Abraham Lincoln as

DOD indicates 4/15 when in fact it is 4/14. Please edit. Thank you. NN NovemberNice (talk) 16:36, 14 April 2019 (UTC)

He died the day after he was shot. Acroterion (talk) 17:06, 14 April 2019 (UTC)

I'm having a little trouble with the wording "Abraham Lincoln was assassinated by John Wilkes Booth on Good Friday, April 14, 1865," since that implies immediate death, which was obviously not the case. Acroterion (talk) 17:16, 14 April 2019 (UTC)

In what way is this embellished?

"Exploiting his embellished frontier legend (clearing land and splitting fence rails)"

As he actually did clear land and split fence rails, and this was not an uncommon occupation, why is the word 'embellished' used?

The use of a word with negative connotation seems biased, unless some details can be added to demonstrate.

"Exploiting" also has a negative connotation, although less strong, especially when the majority of the country was involved in agrarian activities in the run-up to the Industrial Revolution. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.24.22.99 (talk) 19:20, 19 April 2019 (UTC)

Requesting feedback at Talk:Abraham Lincoln (captain)

I started a discussion at Talk:Abraham Lincoln (captain) because there is an un-addressed contradiction regarding his date of birth. The article claims May 13, 1744, but a memorial marker of his claims May 1738. Anyone with questions or comments can post on the linked talk page. Thanks. Mungo Kitsch (talk) 19:13, 28 April 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 15 May 2019

The Gettysburg Address is 271 words and is not 272 words; often misunderstood is the word "battle-field" which is one word and not two. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bmhatten (talk • contribs) d19:25, 15 May 2019 (UTC)

 Not done for now: I think it depends on which version one is counting the words from - there are at least 5 somewhat different "official" extant copies/drafts (the Nicolay, the Bliss, the Hay, the Everett, and the Bancroft) plus the Associated Press version which differs from the official ones. Shearonink (talk) 22:17, 15 May 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 30 May 2019

He was an affectionate, though often absent, husband and father of four children. Robert Todd Lincoln was born in 1843 and Edward Baker Lincoln (Eddie) in 1846. Edward died on February 1, 1850, in Springfield, probably of tuberculosis. "Willie" Lincoln was born on December 21, 1850, and died of a fever on February 20, 1862. The Lincolns' fourth son, Thomas "Tad" Lincoln, was born on April 4, 1853, and died of heart failure at the age of 18 on July 16, 1871.[12]:179–181, 476 Robert reached adulthood and produced children. The Lincolns' last descendant, great-grandson Robert Todd Lincoln Beckwith, died in 1985.[22] Lincoln "was remarkably fond of children",[12]:126 and the Lincolns were not considered to be strict with their own.[21]:120. In fact, Lincoln's law partner William H. Herndon could grow irritated when Lincoln would bring his children to the law office. Their father, it seemed, was often too absorbed in his own work to notice his children's behaviour. Herndon recounted, "I have felt many and many a time that I wanted to wring their little necks, and yet out of respect for Lincoln I kept my mouth shut. Lincoln did not note what his children were doing or had done." (Source: Emanuel Hertz, The Hidden Lincoln, p. 105 (Letter from William H. Herndon to Jesse W. Weik, November 19, 1885). NatePDThompson (talk) 14:21, 30 May 2019 (UTC)

@NatePDThompson: Assuming the source is correct so  Done –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 15:44, 30 May 2019 (UTC)

References

Why does this article define Robert Smith Todd's life by Slavery?

In this article it cites Robert Smith Todd as a "slave-owner" yet in the Wikipedia article on Robert Smith Todd it says that Todd was a "lawyer, soldier, banker, businessman and politician." Why are we defining a man's life by the mere fact that he owned slaves - a common practice in the early 1800s, when he was much more than that? Where's the balance/neutrality here? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tpkatsa (talk • contribs) 23:35, 17 June 2019 (UTC)

I think you make a good point. We mention the slave-owning aspects later on in the article. On the other hand, Robert Smith Todd does not mention slavery at all. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆 𝄐𝄇} 01:15, 18 June 2019 (UTC)

Indian wars or policy section

Any chance of a section on Indian policy or Indian wars. I know the focus is the Civil War, but there were Indian Wars too including : Owens Valley War, Dakota War of 1862, and the Yavapai Wars. Cmguy777 (talk) 02:59, 3 November 2019 (UTC)

• The Indian Policy of Abraham Lincoln W. Dale Mason (2009) Indigenous Policy Journal

I presented this talk for discussion. No one has yet responded. I believe and Indian policy section is appropriate for the article. Especially how much did the Souix uprising affect the American Civil War ? Lincoln may have used Confederate POWs to fight in Indian Wars. Cmguy777 (talk) 21:29, 12 November 2019 (UTC)

I'd be interested in reading it if it is written up and sourced properly. Maybe start with adding information to the war pages you linked first since this article seems to be continually protected, and then doing a summary edit here? My ability to track down good sources tends towards the sciences so I can't help much in terms of getting it put together, but that's my two cents. --A Shortfall Of Gravitas (talk) 12:47, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

I added two reliable sources and expanded information on Lincoln and Indian policy. I added the section to the article on November 12. I kept the focus on the Souix Uprising, or the Dakota War of 1862. There were the other wars. How did those wars affect Lincoln ? More information would be required. Cmguy777 (talk) 17:59, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

Balance at Forced into Glory

FYI

 – Pointer to relevant discussion elsewhere.

Please see: Talk:Forced into Glory § Balance: Conflict between Lincoln critics like Bennett, and critics of those critics.

The article (on a somewhat controversial biography of Abraham Lincoln) rarely has editors or even talk-page comments, so additional input is requested. PoV issues with our article have been pointed out since 2009, and the off-site academic controversy involving the book's notable author, Lerone Bennett Jr., and his views about Lincoln and the Emancipation Proclamation goes back to the 1960s.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  23:01, 12 November 2019 (UTC)

"No man has a good enough memory to be a successful liar."...except the man who creates a meme. -Abraham Lincoln

Hey all, is there anyone that knows the source for this alleged quote for Lincoln? I personally suspect that the quote is nothing but nonsense, but apparently it is nonsense with an at least sixty year history. [1] Thanks for any help. Geographyinitiative (talk) 22:50, 25 November 2019 (UTC)

Good evidence that Ulysses Grant said it during the Civil War = Josiah Gilbert Holland; Richard Watson Gilder (1897). The Century Illustrated Monthly Magazine. pp. 359–60. Rjensen (talk) 23:19, 25 November 2019 (UTC)

"Lincoln led the nation through the American Civil War, its bloodiest war and its greatest moral, constitutional, and political crisis."

It would be better if this sentence did not have the word "war" in it twice. How can we reword? Peregrine Fisher (talk) 06:39, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

Yes, that would be the common view, but sometimes the burdensome importance of a concept supports the repetition of a word. This may be such a case. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 06:47, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

Perhaps "its bloodiest conflict"? CaptainEek ^{Edits Ho Cap'n!}⚓ 07:18, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

Repetition works as Lincoln himself knew--listen to his second inaugural speech (1865): Both parties deprecated war; but one of them would make war rather than let the nation survive; and the other would accept war rather than let it perish. And the war came. Rjensen (talk) 07:52, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

How about "Lincoln led the nation through the American Civil War, its bloodiest war and its greatest moral, constitutional, and political crisis" becomes "Lincoln led the nation through the bloody American Civil War; its greatest moral, constitutional, and political crisis"? Less words = more pppwwwwwrrrrrrr! Peregrine Fisher (talk) 08:20, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

ok with me. Rjensen (talk) 17:33, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

Looks good to me. Grammatical note: I think that a colon, not a semicolon, may be more grammatical in this case. "its greatest moral..." is not an independent clause. CaptainEek ^{Edits Ho Cap'n!}⚓ 20:09, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

Dred Scott

This needs work. Within the section, Lincoln is quoted, and he in turn is also quoting the court decision. This is too much for the reader to follow. Hoppyh (talk) 03:11, 12 February 2020 (UTC)

I took a stab at it. May or may not be better. https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Abraham_Lincoln&type=revision&diff=940368338&oldid=940362369 Peregrine Fisher (talk) 03:58, 12 February 2020 (UTC)

Gettysburg image

The Gettysburg photo is very difficult to pick Lincoln out from (i.e. I could not, and Lincoln is very distinctive). I had to look it up, [2] this article does a very good job at pointing out who's who. If anyone fancies themselves good at photo editing, a version of the photo where Lincoln is circled in red or yellow would be most useful. CaptainEek ^{Edits Ho Cap'n!}⚓ 18:45, 12 February 2020 (UTC)

It seems like the edits we have been making lately are not causing a stir. So, if you think you are improving the article, just do it! And if you're not sure, mention it here on the talk page after you have done it. Then people can look at after the fact. But at some point, each sentence of improvement needs to involve less than one sentence of discussion. Peregrine Fisher (talk) 21:12, 12 February 2020 (UTC)

Peregrine Fisher, I asked originally because I'm not very good at photo editing, but I proved myself wrong! Busted out Fire Alpaca and churned out a highlighted version in no time CaptainEek ^{Edits Ho Cap'n!}⚓ 21:45, 12 February 2020 (UTC)

Great! Peregrine Fisher (talk) 02:14, 13 February 2020 (UTC)

The lead section is not well balanced

In my opinion. First para has 3 sentences. Bit small. The second para has 6 sentences. Bit bloated. Third para is also bloated. Plus it starts with this:

"As the leader of the moderate faction of the Republican Party, Lincoln confronted Radical Republicans, who demanded harsher treatment of the South; War Democrats, who rallied a large faction of former opponents into his camp; anti-war Democrats (called Copperheads), who despised him; and irreconcilable secessionists, who plotted his assassination. "

Comma, comma, semi-colon, comma, semi-colon, parenthesis, comma, semi-colon, comma, period. Chuckle. I'll have to think about that one for a bit. Peregrine Fisher (talk) 04:49, 11 February 2020 (UTC)

So I took a 10 year hiatus after making getting this article to GA and failing at FA. Looking back at my GA version of the lead it looks like the lead has deteriorated since then. https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Abraham_Lincoln&oldid=402021833 Peregrine Fisher (talk) 05:01, 11 February 2020 (UTC)

Peregrine Fisher, I quite like He became a country lawyer, an Illinois state legislator, and a one-term member of the United States House of Representatives, but failed in two attempts at a seat in the United States Senate. He was an affectionate, though often absent, husband, and father of four children. from the GA version, especially the last sentence, although I'll admit I'm not sure where it would fit in.

The second paragraph could probably have some of the civil war info removed. I think They began the process of seceding from the union. To secure its independence, the new Confederate States of America fired on Fort Sumter, one of the few U.S. forts in the South. Lincoln called up volunteers and militia to suppress the rebellion and restore the Union. could get compressed down a bit. The middle sentence seems almost unnecessary; while Lincoln was certainly central to the civil war, this is an article about him not the war.

In reading through the lead I've also removed a redundant superlative at the end, regarding to "in history". CaptainEek ^{Edits Ho Cap'n!}⚓ 05:53, 11 February 2020 (UTC)

So people know what's going on, read User_talk:Peregrine_Fisher#Abraham_Lincoln if you want to. My first question is "would the lead be better if we just copied the old one and replaced the current one"? Overall, would it be better? Would it be a better place to start from and then bring in whatever improvements have happened in the last ten years (if any). Peregrine Fisher (talk) 06:13, 11 February 2020 (UTC)

Peregrine Fisher, I think some of the improvements were good, but not all. We're going to have to blend the two together; harder than just choosing the earlier I'm afraid. Even then, the end result may look like neither. Also, I have opened a peer review for the article. CaptainEek ^{Edits Ho Cap'n!}⚓ 06:28, 11 February 2020 (UTC)

(redent) I'm reading through the old version's lead [3] and the new version. I haven't read anything in the new version that is more concise, more punchy, more summarizing, or more anything good compared to the old one. I know editors would be shocked to just throw away 10 years of edits, but I think it should be considered. I could start redoing what I did years ago, line by line, 143kb .... whatever. I'm about to get hyperbolic and make unhelpful generalizations and who knows what else. I'll stop. If FA is the goal, swapping in the old lead will solve that section. Then we can move on to the next section. Or we can try and fix a lead, line by line, that isn't really that well written. Peregrine Fisher (talk) 07:07, 11 February 2020 (UTC)

I feel sad talking about it, but I think the reason that old version was so great was because of Hoppyh. But I just talked to him, and he's in poor health now. User_talk:Hoppyh#I_think_we_worked_together_on_Lincoln_about_10_years_ago You definitely want more than one really good editor for a task like this. Peregrine Fisher (talk) 07:16, 11 February 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for that, but it really is undeserved. I will “take a wack” at ce in the lead but feel free to revert as desired. Hoppyh (talk) 13:05, 11 February 2020 (UTC)

FYI, I have not looked at the old version, so any resemblance to my CE is coincidental. Hoppyh (talk) 16:06, 11 February 2020 (UTC)

Also FYI, a quick review of the presidents’ FA’s shows most of them have no citations in the lead. I leave that issue for your consideration. Hoppyh (talk) 17:09, 11 February 2020 (UTC)

When at all possible, I agree that the lead should be without citations. With that in mind:

• Do we really need a citation for the pronunciation of his name?
• I think the Randall citation is also unnecessary. The page range is 65-87, so its unclear from exactly where the claim was taken, or what claim that would be. And we have covered that information in the text, so I think it could be removed.
• The ranking citations are already in the body, so I don't see why they need to be in the lead too.

Basically, I think all the citations could be removed from the lead without any ill effect or cleanup needed. CaptainEek ^{Edits Ho Cap'n!}⚓ 05:13, 12 February 2020 (UTC)

The three places where I see citations in the lede are claims of some kind. In that case, I think the citations should remain.–CaroleHenson (talk) 05:33, 12 February 2020 (UTC)

@Alanscottwalker: Shouldn’t we mention his assassination in the first paragraph? Hoppyh (talk) 20:19, 13 February 2020 (UTC)

I don't think so, the current lead is basically structured as a chronology, and his major bio impact was as president - I think it is distracting to rush to the end and it is still in the lead (and he did not do any of the stuff in the current first paragraph because he was assassinated). Now, if the first paragraph were structured differently as basically a quick summary of his whole life . . . Alanscottwalker (talk) 20:26, 13 February 2020 (UTC)

Sounds good. Hoppyh (talk) 20:30, 13 February 2020 (UTC)

Featured Article push

Howdy hello folks! This article was brought up to GA about ten years ago, but fell short of FA. As one of the most important figures in history and the 39th most viewed page of all time on Wikipedia, bringing it to higher quality is one of the most impactful actions on the project. Taking it to Featured status would be an amazing achievement. Its also one that can't happen alone. I'm looking to build a team of editors who are willing to help push this article through to featured status. It will be a vast undertaking, but it won't happen if editors don't make it happen. If you'd like to join, please sign your name below and say what areas you can best help with. Smooth sailing, CaptainEek ^{Edits Ho Cap'n!}⚓ 06:58, 11 February 2020 (UTC)

Participants

Serious folks only, please. This will be a vast undertaking, you will be expected to help significantly throughout the process. You are still welcome to improve the article without being part of the FA Team.

1. CaptainEek ^{Edits Ho Cap'n!}⚓ 06:58, 11 February 2020 (UTC)
2. CaroleHenson (talk) 21:04, 13 February 2020 (UTC)

Tasks

You are welcome to add tasks

1. Source reviewing: Existing sources need to be double checked to ensure that sources reflect the claims they are cited to.
2. Photo review: All photos need checking for status, quality, and applicability. New photos may need to be found, and poor ones removed or replaced.
3. Copyediting: All prose should be of professional quality
4. Neutrality: As a contentious subject, POV issues will need to be dealt with. If you identify a POV issue, please open a new section and discuss it.

Goals

You are welcome to add goals, but please keep them concrete

1. Address issues raised in peer review
2. Every claim well sourced and spotchecked
3. Pass a Featured Article nomination
4. Celebrate!

General discussion

I don't want to be a jerk, but I think we should just swap in the old lead and then move to the next section. Some real tough love. Peregrine Fisher (talk) 07:21, 11 February 2020 (UTC)

Massive undertaking. The current article has certainly grown beyond. Whoever does this, I guess I would suggest looking at Wikipedia:Split and identifying upfront the best/complete sources in the 21st century for Lincoln Bio (eg, book-length by historians, top publishers) and comparing with the best published tertiary bios. Good wishes to you. Alanscottwalker (talk) 16:06, 11 February 2020 (UTC)

• Turns out I was wrong about the size, the prose size is actually still in the 70k range, which is much more reasonable than I had thought. Must've misread the prose gadget, its got a lot of numbers bouncing around. So we actually don't need to do much cutting down, just need to ensure quality! CaptainEek ^{Edits Ho Cap'n!}⚓ 01:53, 14 February 2020 (UTC)

Best biographies?

I have a small collection of Lincoln books, but I'm wondering what folks think the best, most authoritative biographies are. The best I have is Doris Kearns Goodwin's "Team of Rivals", but it focuses more on the presidency and Lincoln's closest advisors, and neglects his assassination. I also have access to Nicolay and Hay's "Abraham Lincoln: A History", but it is now archaic, having been published more than a century ago. Suggestions on books to procure would be appreciated. CaptainEek ^{Edits Ho Cap'n!}⚓ 18:25, 11 February 2020 (UTC)

I think Donald (1995) is where to begin and then look after-that, there are some lists on the internet but I can't vouch for them. Alanscottwalker (talk) 18:50, 11 February 2020 (UTC)

Donald was my primary source. Hoppyh (talk) 19:37, 11 February 2020 (UTC)

Some others, in addition to Donald and Kerns Goodwin:

• "Battle Cry of Freedom: The Civil War Era" by James M. McPherson
• "Lincoln at Gettysburg: The Words that Remade American" by Garry Willis
• "A. Lincoln: A Biography" by Ronald C. White Jr.
• Perhaps, "Lincoln's Body: A Cultural History" by Richard Wightman Fox. I am not familiar with this book, but I am interested in knowing more about this book from a top six list of Lincoln books.

–CaroleHenson (talk) 21:14, 13 February 2020 (UTC)

Abraham Lincoln: A Life (2 vols.) by Michael Burlingame and Our Lincoln: New Perspectives on Lincoln and His World by Eric Foner.   // Timothy :: talk 

Notes section

I have moved subsection "Footnotes" out of the reference section and renamed it Notes per usage in other FA's. This is a great way to handle "parenthetical" comments or detailed remarks which you would rather not bog down the reader with, while maintaining thoroughness; this method is preferred over using references (e.g. see current refs #116 and #123 which I will be moving to the Notes section.) Hoppyh (talk) 16:28, 13 February 2020 (UTC)

"Unbroken forest"

See 3d paragraph of Early Life section—I'm unsure what the term means, and maybe we should define it rather than leaving the reader guessing. Hoppyh (talk) 16:56, 13 February 2020 (UTC)

It's poetic for no-civilization. I suppose southern Indiana (unlike northern-Indiana) is heavily forested but feel free to change. Alanscottwalker (talk) 17:08, 13 February 2020 (UTC)