Talk:Mexico

Issues...vandalism...porque?

Why can't the editor change the racial line on this top page in reference to gays? DonDeigo 16:13, 20 December 2006 (UTC) Why is there vandalism in this page and why would someone want to do this to the Mexico page? I just don't understand the reasoning behind it. [[user:Bardock the Mexican|Bardock the Mexican]

I agree with you totally. But, unfortunately most vandals I've seen from this article are peoplr who probably have a personal hatred for the country, while others are just bored and randomly vandalize pages. It's sad that articles like this are frequently vandalized. --Moreau36 22:12, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

"SOME" Americans hate Mexico because of all the illegal immigration issue, "SOME" Latin Americans hate Mexico because as much as they don’t like it, Mexico is better than them in many aspects, and "SOME" other people in the world hate Mexico because of the stupid stereotype that Hollywood movies have shown them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.25.177.5 (talk • contribs)

• ReplY:The Vato who made the comment above, is stupid and dumbed and has serious "Mental issues", that's just POV Bullshit!. --Ramirez 07:12, November 11, 2006 (UTC)

• Reply: The above statement made is a POV statement, written by an unknown coward who has "mental problems" against Mexicans. You should have your self checked with a doctor. That is discrimination!!. Fuck You, Puto.!! --Ramirez 05:22, November 11, 2006 (UTC)

• Reply: The unknown writer who wrote the most stupidiest comments against my fellow Mexican country men, seems very familiar to me. May be this unknown user is the one, who has been writing silly Poin OF View statements in The Mestizo article, with no sources to back it up. The unknown user has been writing about racist comments about mestizos in The Hispanic America section. I' am watching and monitoring you! Vato!, beware--Ramirez 07:45, November 12, 2006 (UTC)

• • Reply to Ramirez72: Chill out. The "unknown" writer (User:70.25.177.5) was simply making a statement of fact. There are various categories of people who hate Mexico and Mexicans for a variety of reasons. I believe that his statement is not that it is reasonable to hate Mexico. His statement is that "Some people hate Mexico..." with a statement of why those people think that they should hate Mexico. You can believe his statements are true (i.e. that "SOME people hate Mexico") without believing that they have a justifiable reason for their hatred. I suspect that 70.25.177.5 would agree that the hatred of these people is unreasonable. Moreover, even if User:70.25.177.5 did say and mean POV, racist things, your response violates Wikipedia policy on civility and Wikipedia's prohibition of personal attacks. Please refrain from this sort of language in the future. --Richard 14:36, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

To Ramirez, Probably you didn't understand my message, if your English ain't that good I recommend you to use a translator, how am I gonna say shit against Mexico when I'm Mexican myself, I was just saying the reasons why SOME people hate this wonderful country, which as I said before is because of envy (South Americans) or ignorance (Rest of the world).

Just to finish, if I didn’t put my name on it's because I don’t have a userpage or I don’t know how to access to it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.25.177.5 (talk • contribs)

So, get a username now! We'll help you learn how to use Wikipedia. Feel free to ask any questions on my Talk Page. --Richard 01:45, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Photo of "racial differences"

Does anyone else find this photo misleading or at least inappropriate for an encyclopedia article? Maybe I'm being too sensitive here, but I think that for a country with such a large diversity of people, it's strange to use a photo of three very similar-looking people (in terms of "racial differences") to represent the variation in Mexico's races. I don't see anyone that seems to represent quite the many groups of indigenous Mexicans seen in the parts of Mexico I've been to (granted I've only been to Mexico City, Puebla, and Tijuana). Instead I see people that seem to show what I, the ignorant American, would see as different shades of "white". I am quite aware that "mestizos" can have features ranging from what could pass as fully European to those that could pass as fully Amerindian, and that these three students could easily be of three different backgrounds (say "Spanish", "mestizo", and "German", maybe) but I just don't find this photo representative of Mexico's actual diversity. Either way, I don't think such a picture is appropriate for an encyclopedia article. You can describe diversity in numbers and labels if you absolutely must, but do we really need to have a picture for this sort of thing? Does anyone else agree with me? --SameerKhan 11:04, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

• Reply: Yes I agree with you, firstly the photo does not represent all Mexican people, because it's focusing on just full blooded white Mexicans. That's just discrimation. They should include all types of Mexicans including the Amerindian peoples, Mestizos and Afro-Mexican peoples etc. Can some one change the pictures, including the picture in the sport section. The picture of a woman is a fan, it does not represent what football (soccer) is all about. The picture should contain actual players kicking or running with a soccer ball. -- Ramirez 04:51, November 11, 2006 (UTC)

Ok, so what's the point, you guys are going from one extreme to the other, you changed the picture of three Mexicans, (one brown, two whites) and instead put TWO pictures of Amerindians, if you've got a better picture that shows Mexico's racial diversity, you're welcome to post it, but the picture that was before definitely represents more accurately Mexican society, therefore I'm changing it back, and when you get better picture, please post it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Supaman89 (talk • contribs)

Okay I'm sorry I didn't make it clear enough, but I would actually prefer to have no photo at all ("Either way, I don't think such a picture is appropriate for an encyclopedia article."). I don't see equivalent photos in the demographics sections of other country articles, including very racially diverse countries like India, Russia, or the US. They may have maps or statistics, but no photographs. Can we remove the photo altogether? --SameerKhan 22:35, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Why don't we leave it like that for a couple of weeks, while someone get a better one, anyways I don't think it's a bad picture, just because no other country has something like that it doesn't mean is inappropriate. “Mexico, always innovating hahaha”. By the way, why do you care so much about this article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Supaman89 (talk • contribs)

I may not be from Mexico but I can still care! My reasons are also somewhat personal. I personally don't find it at all appropriate when encyclopedic articles give pseudo-objective information about racial differences like "look at this picture of racial diversity". It's more commonly seen where articles state things like "one gets a sense of the diversity of Los Angeles just walking down the street" or "Indians come in all skin colors" etc. (obviously I made those lines up but you get the idea), where it's supposed to be some sort of "wow, look how great my country is" when it always sounds to me like "wow, look how racist I can be by pointing out the differences I see in people". Now, I am not calling anyone names here or anything like that, so please don't take me out of context. Thus far this is my own personal belief. Now, for my reasons for actually bringing this up, beyond my personal feelings - I don't believe in attaching labels to other people, and I don't believe that is Wikipedia's policy either. If we discuss race or religion or sexual orientation, this should be self-reported information, if it is given at all. You wouldn't use that photo to say "look at this photo of the diversity of Mexican sexual orientation" - that's something that we cannot judge as an outsider - even if those three people were straight, bi, and gay, or whatever. So if we talk about the racial diversity of Mexico, show it with maps and statistics of self-reported identity (i.e. census data), not with a picture of people where readers are supposed to use their own subjective stereotypes to understand the meaning. To me, an American, I can hardly tell that these three people in the photo are supposed to be from different "races". I would have much more easily believed the caption if it said "examples of white Mexicans" alongside another photo of other Mexican people. Now, that is just because of my subjective ideas on what white people look like, being from the US. Someone from Mexico will see the photo differently, maybe. Someone from Argentina might see it a third way, etc. But this is drawing entirely on subjective outsider beliefs, and not self-reported identity. This is what bothers me about the photo and why I think it doesn't belong in an encyclopedia article. It makes Mexico look like it's trying to prove something that it can just show with statistics and maps, if anything. I think Mexico is a great country and shouldn't stoop to such things. Maybe I'm alone on this. If that's the case, let the picture stay. --SameerKhan 23:52, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree with SameerKhan, the picture is not encyclopedic. Moreover, the picture shows (to the eyes of an American) three Caucasians! Where's the diversity? I believe the point of the picture was simply to show that white Mexicans do exist. Like SameerKhan said, statistics can show that point in a more appropriate and encyclopedic way. The picture should be eliminated from the article. --Alonso 00:10, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

First of all they are not three Caucasians, in case you didn't notice one of the was brown skinned with European features, therefore a Mestizo, the other 2 where definitely white, the only racial group still to be shown where the Amerindians, that's why I said that picture wasn't perfect, but is more accurate than the ones that you insist on posting. Why is it that people always try to show the worse of Mexico, they are always showing small towns and people with sombreros, which couldn't be more distant from reality.

I'm guessing that you are an American with a Middle Eastern background and maybe that's why you think that I'm being kinda racist by posting those photos, but I'm not.

I don't think we need to start fighting over this specially when you're not even from Mexico, but if you wanna contribute to this matter I already told you to look for a better picture, but please don't keep on posting the photos of those Amerindians, insinuating that we Mexicans are like that, we already have enough with Hollywood movies.

As soon as you get the picture with the three mayor groups (Whites, Mestizos and Amerindians, or even Afro-Mexicans) you're welcome to change right away, thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Supaman89 (talk • contribs)

I am not of Middle Eastern background. I don't think my background is relevant - please don't make assumptions. And I'm not saying you're racist. I'm just saying that's how people will interpret a photo like that. And I think I made it quite clear that I know those three people are probably from different "races" but my point was that any non-Mexican (i.e. the majority of people reading English Wikipedia) would not be able to know that. A non-Mexican (like myself) might just see this photo and think "wow, the racial diversity of Mexico is just three white people?", even though a Mexican might be able to say "oh, a mestizo and two Europeans".

In addition, I didn't say we needed "people with sombreros" or "small towns" (not that this should be considered "the worse of Mexico"). I just didn't think the photo should be included.

The point of Wikipedia isn't that only people from Mexico can edit or comment on an article about Mexico. If we made that kind of a rule, all articles would be biased. Wikipedia is open to all editors who follow the appropriate guidelines, and that is what both you and I are doing. I don't think it's appropriate to label someone as not having a good enough opinion to use a talk page. I agree there need not be a fight, which is why I didn't make edits to the article unilaterally. By the way, that wasn't me who put the photos of Amerindians on there. I don't think that was a better representation of Mexico either. I'm not looking for a better photo. I'm trying to question the need for a photo at all. --SameerKhan 04:40, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Sorry man, I was at school.
Basically what we are debating about, is if this section should have pictures or not. If we agree that it's ok to put pictures, at least you agree with me what picture is the most appropriate one, until we get a better one. But if we agree that there shouldn't be pictures at all, well... then we don't have to worry about which one to choose, right.

Now, let me show you some articles that have photos of actual people in their Demographics section: Brazil, Argentina, Taiwan, etc. didn't you say that there was no other article that showed pictures in their Demographics section? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Supaman89 (talk • contribs)

You're right. There seem to be some countries that have photos in their demographics sections. Still, none of them claim to be "a photo of diversity", which was my point. Photos can of course have white people, brown people, or whatever, in them, but it's ridiculous to have a photo "of diversity". Anyhow, I'm not arguing. You guys decide on your own. I've said what I need to say. --SameerKhan 21:16, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your opinion, as you said before anyone who wants to contribute to wikipedia may do it, and again if you wanna keep editing to this article please do it, as long as is for its improvement. I think we're done with this discussion, finally. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Supaman89 (talk • contribs)

I'm sorry but whoever changed the picture to that one with only amerindians is just showing his/her ignorance about Mexican "racial" diversity. I'm kind of sick of people with such prejudices. I'm not sure if having this picture is "good" or "bad" or "innapropiate", but if we are going to have it there, we should present the most accurate versions. I think that a well balanced picture should have a white person, mestizo with brown skin, mestizo with white (lighter) skin, amerindian and afro-mexican. I am Mexican and I know the diversity of my people. AlexCovarrubias ^{( Let's talk! )} 22:44, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I know, but a picture like that is hard to find, I think the easiest way to do it, is by taking the photo ourselves, Alex if you have a camara could you please take a picture of some of your friends, one white, one kinda white, and one brown, and then post it. Yo tengo rato que no tengo camara si no, ya la hubiera subido, asi que si lo puedes hacer pues bien no.' — Preceding unsigned comment added by Supaman89 (talk • contribs)

I just created a graphic (it is what I do most in Wikipedia :D) with what I would call a well balanced diversity of Mexicans. All the people in the pics are friends of mine. AlexCovarrubias ^{( Let's talk! )} 00:24, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Ok Supaman89, now what is the logic behind your deletion of my newly created picture of racial differences in Mexico? Because you just deleted the pic, period. I created a more accurate work, with males representing all racial or ethnic differences in Mexico. Well, can you tell me why you deleted the pic? I mean, you asked me to create it (I was gonna do it anyway). I just wrote your talk page and you have there some accusations of "white supremacy thinking". I'm not sure about what to think about it, because you were perfectly "ok" with the first picture they posted, a pic with 2 white girls and 1 mestizo (more european looking). I really don't want to believe it so please, explain your logic. (And by the way, you should sign your comments).

Here is the graphic I produced, so all the community can compare it and post what they think:

vs.

Ok, comment. AlexCovarrubias ^{( Let's talk! )} 19:03, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

I know man, I should sign my comments, but I don’t know how, anyways yeah man of course your picture is better, but I left a message that probably someone erased, that said that your picture was good but if you could make it simpler and also put a couple of girls, cuz I don't know it just feels too gayish. When I wrote it I was just joking around (It was way funnier in Spanish), and I erased the picture because I thought you had red it and were working on the new one.

About the dude whom left me a message in my talkpage, I saw it as well, you probably also saw my answer to his accusations, by the way if you erased all the messages in my talkpage could you put them back please, why would you do that in first place?, saludos. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.25.177.5 (talk • contribs)

I never mess with everyone else's talk/user page. It was not me. You can sign your comments by writing 4 tildes like this ~~~~ or if you can't, just click the "Sign your name" link in the table below. Saludos. AlexCovarrubias ^{( Let's talk! )} 00:36, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

I do not like the pictures posted by User:AlexCovarrubias. Forgive my straightforwardness but I think User:Supaman89's idea of taking personal photos is a bad idea. User:AlexCovarrubias's pictures look amateurish and thus inappropriate for Wikipedia. This is not meant as a slam on Alex. It's just the difference between a photograph taken by an amateur and a photograph taken by a professional. I think no photo is better than a poor quality photo. Can we drop the idea of taking a picture of our friends and calling it "diversity"?

You don't need a photo to show racial diversity. IMO, no photo will do a good job of conveying the idea that you want so give it up. Just talk about it in the text.

BTW, here's my insight on the diversity problem. In the United States, society is dominated by Caucasians (not mestizo with Amerindians or Africans). Thus, when we talk racial diversity, we are talking about non-Caucasian ethnicities (African, Hispanic, Asian).

Mexico is different from the United States. According to the statistics given in the article, Mexico is 60% mestizo, 30% Amerindian and 9% Caucasian. To talk about racial diversity is to focus on the non-majority races and ethnicities i.e. the Amerindians and the Caucasians. I think this is why some editors of this article get heated up when racial diversity is "illustrated" by a photo of Amerindians. I don't think the person who inserted that picture meant to say that Mexico is all Amerindians. I think he/she was just trying to say that Amerindians are a significant racial minority.

--Richard 01:39, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Yo, Alex, thanks for telling me how to sign my comments, now, I understand that you took your time to create that picture, which is pretty good but again, I don't know... it just doesn't feel right, don't get me wrong man, it just looks weird, What do you say if we put the picture of the mestizo and Caucasians and also the one with the Amerindians.

Now, Richard, I know you think we shouldn't put pictures at all but then why don't you go and say the same thing at the articles of Argentina, Brazil and Taiwan?
--Supaman89

Superman89, as to why we don't complain on the Argentina, Brazil and Taiwan articles, I think it is self-evident, the pictures in these articles are professional, not just the photos of me and my friends (mostly white people). If you really like the Brazil example, why don't we put the picture of the Maya people in San Cristóbal that is shown on the Indigenous peoples of Mexico article (which would be equivalent to the picture of Amerindians of Brazil) and perhaps a professional picture of the Mennonite plautdietsch communities in Durango and Chihuahua, which would be equivalent to the picture shown of the "Southern European Festivals" both in Brazil and in Argentina. I just don't think that taking pictures of ourselves to show the diversity of a country is appropriate for an encyclopedia. --Alonso 05:29, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

I think the main issue here is not "the pictures look amateur". As a Mexican I know the diversity of my country because I live here and I have traveled all over Mexico. Those persons may be familiar to me, but they certainly represent very well Mexico's diversity. Ask any other Mexican. AlexCovarrubias ^{( Let's talk! )} 16:19, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Alex you haven't answered me yet, what do you think about putting the picture with the mestizo and caucasians and also the one with the amerindians? --Supaman89

I'm not sure if I understand what you're suggesting. You want me to edit the current picture? And present only mestizos, whites and amerindians? AlexCovarrubias ^{( Let's talk! )} 20:09, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm not a user, but I feel that the labels used to classify each person in racial differences photos are misleading and inaccurate. While I fully acknowledge the diversity of ethnic roots and different phenotypes found in Mexico, I feel that the majority of people featured in the photos are probably mestizos, regardless of whatever "race" someone may want to place them in. I particularly have a problem with the people labeled as Amerindian, as they are not nearly as indigenous-looking as other Mexicans considered to be Native Americans. I'm sure they're Amerindian ancestry is strong, but they, too, are most likely mestizos, and most people of Mexican descent would probably not consider them to be "indios." I think that race is very fluid in Mexico, and this should be the template to set for the photographic supplement (which is what is the example used in the Brazilian photographic supplement). Thank you. 69.235.144.199 17:44, 30 November 2006 (UTC)James Lopez69.235.144.199 17:44, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree with 69.235.144.199 regarding the Amerindians. The rest look fine to me. --Alonso 17:18, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Security Issue

There is no reference about Mexico's police, nor military, there should be at least a reference in the main body konegistiger November 18, 18:30 (UTC)

Like the wall that is being built along the mexican border to prevent immigrants too pass on over here to the United States? I don't think I saw that in the article....._{maybe I should check again...} But if it's not there, it should be. Kyo cat^meow! 01:13, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

I wasn't talking about that wall, maybe it's something important, but that should go on USA article, not in Mexico's one, cause it's being built on USA side. What I was talking about was about police, insecurity and all that stuff konegistiger November 22, 18:44 (UTC)

I don't think that's part of the Mexican article, if you wanna create an article about the USA-Mexico immigration issue, and put all the information related to the wall, why don't you do it, but there are more important things that this article needs for instance "Geography and Tourism of Mexico". -- Supaman89

Oh. --Kyo cat^meow! 20:04, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

BABEL MOVIE

Has anyone seen "BABEL" yet, what do you think about this film?, do you think it promotes stereotypes about the Mexican society?, cuz I think it does, and being Mexican myself I couldn't feel more insulted by that movie, everything from the music that they listen to, the wedding, the way they dress, is totally absurd, because of that kind of crap is that people think we live in towns, kill chickens, carry a gun and wear sombreros. --Supaman89

The US media's endless stereotyping of Mexico and its' people (Mexican Americans) has damaged the social status of US Hispanics (or American Latinos, depends on what title to use is appropriate or P-C to many people). If the American people in the US opposed such negative portrayals and exaggerations of racial and national minorities, and other cultures (African-Americans, Asians, Jews, Arabs, Native Americans, white ethnics like Irish or Italians or Poles, Southern rural whites, homosexuals and the disabled), how come it remains acceptable to offend or defame Mexicans and other Latin Americans? The Babel movie, if done by accident or some of their writers hold prejudice on Mexicans, seems to depict the country and people as backward, criminal, dirty, happy (or "child like"), lazy, macho (i.e. Latin males harass white Anglo women), patriarchal, submissive, uneducated and violent "non-European race" of "brown people". I mean in the year 2006, the Hispanic/Latin American countries and peoples are targeted like this by TV, movies, cartoons and comedy clubs like it's allowed for the US or "white Americans" generalize what or how they view Mexico, Puerto Ricans, Cubans, Central or South Americans, etc. I don't think it's racist or nativist to view Mexico a "third world" country, but Mexico is geographically and historically in North America like the US and Canada are, and I thought the US has a diplomatic friendship with Mexico as a war ally (but neutral), tourist destination and trade partner. The Mexican people may have their own ideas or stereotypes of Americans, Europeans and other nations (Guatemalans, Salvadorans or Hondurans come to Mexico or as a springboard to enter the US gets bad ethnic/national jokes in Mexican media), but so far most Mexicans, esp. immigrants and multi-generational Americans of Mexican descent, don't view America as full of "cowboy racists", "yanqui imperialists" or "moneyed gringos". It's true at this time, a wave of kidnappings of American tourists and businessmen is gonna affect the tourist industry Mexico depends on, but it has a diversified economy (unless for hotel resorts on the coasts). 63.3.14.1 14:45, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

First of all, Babel is a Mexican-US coproduction, it was written and directed by Mexicans. Indeed, I don't feel that it promotes a stereotype, as some people in Mexico do live that way, though not all... Hari Seldon 22:49, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Mexico's standard of living as compared with Argentina's

In "standard of living" (6.2) it says “The standard of living in Mexico is higher than most of other countries in Latin America drawing people from places like Argentina, Brazil or Cuba to the country in search for better opportunities”. This sentence tries to imply that Argentina has a lower standard of living than Mexico.

Such reference to Argentina as a country with a lower standard of life than Mexico is wrong not only regarding Human Development Index, but also considering GDP per capita, life expectancy, literacy, among many other indicators.

Additionally, and regarding a comment of konegistiger below, it should not forget that the size of the aggregate GDP (konegistiger said "I recall the only two Latin American countries which are trillionare economies are Mexico and Brazil") does not translate into an indicative of development or standard of living: India is trillionaire (in fact, three-trillionaire), and Australia, the Netherlands and Switerzland are not (see List of countries by GDP (PPP)), but the last three are clearly (far) more developed and with a (far) better standard of living than India.

I think that we should acknowledge that, at least regarding Argentina, the debate about whether it has a higher or lower standard of living than Mexico is at best arguable, and that it would be incorrect to state any conclusions in the article. At least, it should indicate that Argentina has some indicators that place it above Mexico (specially, those that state that the Argentines live better, earn more, live more and are better educated than Mexicans), and that the issues of development or standard of living between Argentina and Mexico are debatable.

I think the most correct and practical solution would be to remove any reference to Argentina in the referred sentence. November 27 2006, 22:01 (UTC)

This is not Argentina article to indicate such things you ask, you better go and edit the article Argentina. Also you are not considering the size of the population. There's no doubt Mexico have more people with better standard of living than Argentina because the country has 106 million people and Argentina only around 39 millions. Not all the population of Argentina live in good conditions, so even if the 39% of Mexico's population would have nice living conditions, it would be 41.34 millions. Of course not only 39% of Mexico's population live in good conditions. ¬¬ AlexCovarrubias ^{( Let's talk! )} 23:11, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Oh also, the largest Argentinian community outside Argentina is in Mexico. Why not in the US for example? In 2004, Mexico's and Brazil's government decided not to ask eachother citizens for visas. You know what happened? In 2005 Mexican government had to step back because the Brazilian immigration tripled. So... I don't see Mexicans going to Argentina or Brazil to seek "better opportunities and better standard of living". (And don't say it is because we have the US nearer, becasue then why the Argentinians aren't going to the US?). AlexCovarrubias ^{( Let's talk! )} 23:15, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

I completely agree with you in the sense that this is not the article where to discuss which of Argentina or Mexico are the most developed. As evidenced by the different standards used in this debate, it is possible to support both positions. Consequently, do you agree that the reference to Argentina in the sentence referred to standard of living should be removed? 00:25, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I happen to agree with the anonymous user: the standard of living takes into account the Human Development Index, life expectancy, literacy, secondary school enrollment and completion, access to health services, amongst many other indicators, and in many of them Mexico ranks below Argentina. Also, Alex, we cannot say why Argentines emigrate to Mexico, arguably it could be a better standard of living, or simply better short-term opportunities, but it is still an assumption. Now, what the article originally said was that Mexico has the highest income per capita in Latin America as measured in GNI (Gross National Income) as reported by the World Bank. That is a fact, and that's what the article should say. --Alonso 01:20, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I think we reached an agreement. I have recently registered and hence cannot modify the article. Could you please delete the reference to Argentina in the sentence regarding standard of living? 02:39, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I would rather wait until Alex and more users contribute and express their opinions. So far only us two have reached an agreement. We need a consensus. --Alonso 03:32, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Let's wait, let's say, 1 week, and if no contrary opinions were rendered we can deem the corrections approved. 12:59, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

In the Argentine article, it also says that many Mexicans immigrate to Argentina, implying that Argentina offers more opportunities for immigrants that Mexico, and no one says anything about it, so if you want to quit any reference of Argentina in this article, please go and say the same thing to the argentine article.--supaman89

Wow, that is news, Mexicans emigrating to Argentina?? Could you please reference that? At least it can be referenced that Argentines do emigrate to Mexico, and it has been shown Mexico has the largest number of Argetines overseas. If the Argentina aticle says that Mexicans emigrate to Argentina, I hope, for the sake of the quality of our encyclopedia, that they can cite the appropriate verifiable sources (if that is true). In any case, the point I was trying to make is that "standard of living" involves many aspects besides income per capita. Mexico does have a higher income per capita than Argentina, in fact, Mexico's Gross National Income is even higher than that of Brazil. That is a fact. The rest, like I said, about literacy, secondary school enrollment and completion, are another story, and therefore we cannot say anything about the overall standard of living, unless, of course, a source can be cited that clearly states which ranks "higher". --Alonso 20:30, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

The person who wrote the Argentina article does not cite the source, and according to the Argentine official statistics office it does not appear to be many Mexicans in Argentina!!: http://www.indec.mecon.ar/ I guess we can assume that there must be at least one, in which case the assertion would still be right, but I am putting a "citation needed" header in that sentence in the Argentina article anyway.

What is problematic in the Mexico article is not the assertion that there are Argentines in Mexico (in fact, I am not contesting the sentence "Mexico is also home for many other Latin American emigrants, many from Argentina (making Mexico home to the largest Argentine population outside of Argentina, an estimated 150,000 in 2005", which would be equivalent to the sentence included in the Argentina article), but the inkling that Argentina's standard of living is lower than Mexico's (as derived from the sentence "The standard of living in Mexico is higher than most of other countries in Latin America drawing people from places like Argentina, Brazil or Cuba to the country in search for better opportunities"). It is the connection between standard of living and migration in the same sentence what is objectionable.--Diegou 20:45, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I just checked the Argentina article and the reference to the Mexican emigration has already been deleted by the administrator of the page. Apparently it had been the product of vandalism. Coming back to our issue, let's for a few more days to see whether someone has a good reason to keep Argentina as a country with a standard of living lower than Mexico, and if no one appears let's delete it. --Diegou 00:45, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I strongly recomend not to delete or edit that sentence. Mainly because this is a Argentine nationalistic issue, a bias. The main key in the sentence these Argentinians try to delete is:

"The standard of living in Mexico is higher than most (it does not claim to be the highest) of the other countries of Latin America (which is true) drawing people from places like Argentina (true), Brazil (true!) or Cuba (true) [...]"

The sentence is not saying Mexico holds the highest Latin American standard of living. And the immigration from Arg, Bra and Cub is true and can be heavly referenced. Is they are soooo bothered by this, we could (theorically) rewrite the sentence like this:

"The standard of living in Mexico is higher than most of the other countries in Latin America. Many people from countries like Argentina (largest Argentine community overseas is in Mexico), Brazil and Cuba comes to the country seeking better opportunities."

But, oh well, I honestly believe they will be also bothered by this. They rather want the sentence to say "Mexico is not better than Argentina but only to the other Latin American countries". Hehehe, practical joke. AlexCovarrubias ^{( Let's talk! )} 09:08, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Alex, I think that I treated you with respect, and kindly ask you to treat me the same way. The basic assumption when I debate in Wikipedia is that the others are intelectually honest, and I demand to be treated like that as well. I never assume from scratch, unless there are good reasons, that a person is "biased" or driven by "nationalism". If you read all my entries here, you will see that all I am bringing are: (i) objective and verifiable data to demostrate that it is not possible to assert that Argentina has a lower standard of living than Mexico (or the opposite), as signed-off by Arturo (who I think is Mexican!!), and (ii) arguments explaining why the sentence is problematic and may drive to a conclusion that is not true. Specially regarding this second point, your reasoning in your post reflects exactly what I wrote two days ago above in "Major sabotaje":

I know that someone may say that the sentence has two parts and that the reference to Argentina, Brazil or Cuba does not imply that those countries have a lower standard of life, but the structure of such sentence is clearly misleading and induces to think so.

Alex, you happened to be that "someone"!! I am not trying to make a nationalistic argument or try to demonstrate who is better than who, but simply to make this encyclopaedia as accurate as possible. This is not a contest, and the whole purpose of the Wikipedia is to make this encyplaedia as better as possible by accepting that, maybe, your views are not shared by others and that, maybe, there are some things that can be written better.

My suggestion is to rephrase the sentence like this: "The standard of living in Mexico is higher than most of the other countries in Latin America", and leave the migration issue to the Demographics chapter where it belongs. In fact, in that chapter already says that there a lot of Argentines in Mexico, and I am perfectly OK with that because: (i) it is accurate, (ii) it is the right chapter where to talk on the issue and (iii) it is not linked to another issue (like standard of living) that can drive to inaccurate conclusions.

I hope that now my thoughts are clearer and you may accept my proposal, which I think should be acceptable to everybody. --Diegou 12:24, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

If the problem is merely semantics then I think the sentence should be edited. The sentence reads: "The standard of living in Mexico is higher than most of the other countries of Latin America drawing people from places like Argentina, Brazil or Cuba". According to the sentence, who or what is "drawing people from other countries"? Well, the "standard of living" (the object of the sentence). So the sentence does imply that a "higher standard of living" is the reason behind Argentine immigration, like Diegou pointed out. While all separate statements are true (like Alex pointed out) causation might not be necessarily true (we cannot say one thing causes the other even if they are both true).

Now, arguably , people do emigrate because they seek better opportunities (caeteris paribus); that is to say, it seems logical that immigration is caused by economic and social factors and that families would, under normal circumstances, emigrate to places where they could enjoy social and economical freedoms they are deprived of in their home countries (not only better economic conditions but social conditions as well; some people seek refuge from political or religious persecution as well). I believe this was the case with the "first" wave of Argentine immigration during the 1970s when a military coup forced thousands of Argentines to "disappear" or emigrate, while it seems that this "second" save of immigration in recent years could be caused by economic factors (the 2001-2002 economic crisis). However do "economic opportunities" imply that "standard of living" is higher?

Two problems arise: (1) how do you define or measure standard of living quantitatively in order to make objective comparisons between two countries? and (2) how do you infer from a mean (or average) statistic that measures HDI to the whole population? Usually (like the UN does) standard of living is simply measured with the Human Development Index (HDI), which includes poverty rates, literacy rate, life expectancy and income. If that were the case, Argentina ranks 36 while Mexico ranks 53, and it would seem contradictory to say that a "lower" standard of living is "drawing" Argentines to Mexico. HDI in itself is problematic: even Cuba and most ex Soviet nations rank higher than Mexico! The reason behind this is that in most communist countries health care and education are accessible to everybody, and in fact Cuba enjoys the highest literacy rate in Latin America, and one of the best health care systems in the region; however, income per capita is well below that of Mexico. Cubans (or Argentines) emigrate to Mexico seeking better economic opportunities and not because Mexico's literacy rate is higher nor because hospitals and health care facilities are available in rural communities.

Secondly, even if we take HDI as a measurement of standard of living, this is just an average. How can we infer from a simple statistic to the whole population? A small group of rich individuals in a country will "pull" the HDI average up even if the majority of the population is deprived of basic needs. I believe the Gini index could assist us in this matter: Argentina's inequality is worse than that of Mexico. (Given that Mexico's income per capita is higher than Argentina's we can rule out that Mexico ranks higher because "they majority is poorer", like it would be the case with Sri Lanka, which ranks higher than both Argentina and Mexico in income inequality). But then we are not talking about "standard of living" but of "income inequality". But migration, in my opinion, is much more complicated than this. Why is it that Mexico's net migration rate is negative then? (and Mexico probably has the greatest emigration rate in Latin America)? What type of immigration is taking place and what type of emigration is taking place? For example, are immigrants extremely qualified (they have a university diploma) while emigrants are not (they do not have a high school diploma) or vice versa? Are there "more opportunities" for the "university qualified" (even if they are foreigners) while Mexican peasants have to emigrate?

While it seems logical to say that Argentines are immigrating to Mexico in recent years seeking better economic opportunities (or why would they?) it does not necessarily follow that "better economic opportunities" means "better standard of living" if it is measured with the HDI. I would rather say that which is factual: "Mexico has the highest income per capita in Latin America (GNI or Gross National Income) as reported by the World Bank, and enjoys one of the highest standards of living in the region". Then, like Diegou proposed, move the immigration stuff to the Demographics section. If something has to be said, then it can be said that "higher income" or "better economic opportunities" could be "drawing" immigrants to Mexico (and avoid the "standard of living" phrase). --Alonso 17:50, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your well balanced post. I might not agree with everything you say (e.g., on the issue of income per capita I would make clear that Mexico is highest in Latin America if measured with GNI, but fourth if measured with GDP (PPP), as it says in the chapter of Gross Economic Product in Economy of Mexico), but I do not want go further (at least this time!!) and would settle with the solution you propose. It was great to share this debate with you at such a high level. --Diegou 18:12, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

True, GDP PPP per capita is the fourth largest. Yet, I (like the World Bank) prefer National Income and not GDP for two reasons: GDP includes production generated by foreigners even though the income (or some utilities) might be perceived or retrieved by foreign countries, and secondly PPP "adjusts" GDP with a purchasing power exchange rate instead of using the nominal exchange rate. Given that the Argentine peso has been greatly devalued, GDP per capita jumps from 4000 to 12000 using PPP. If Argentina was a closed economy, I guess I would use PPP, but in a globalized world Argentina has to import and export products at the nominal exchange rate not at a fictional purchasing power parity. That is why I like GNI better, but that is a personal opinion, and some economists would argue otherwise. --Alonso 19:42, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

In effect, neither GPD(PPP) or GNI (nominal) alone give an accurate picture of national income, and it should take into account both of them.

If the matter is the evaluation of standard of living, as pointed out in List of countries by GDP (PPP), "Using a PPP basis is arguably more useful when comparing differences in living standards because PPP takes into account the relative cost of living and the inflation rates of the countries, rather than using just exchange rates which may distort the real differences in income".

However, and pointed out in List of countries by GDP (nominal) per capita, "Great care should be taken when using either set of figures to compare the wealth of two countries. Often people who wish to promote or denigrate a country will use the figure that suits their case best and ignore the other one, which may be substantially different, but a valid comparison of two economies should take both rankings into account, as well as utilising other economic data to put an economy in context."

So, following such advice, I would put both figures. --Diegou 19:49, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

GNI is neither GDP (nominal) nor GDP PPP; it is a different way of measuring income (in fact you could create a GNI PPP if you wanted to). But that's not related to the argument here. By the way, It was good to debate with you too =) --Alonso 20:14, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

You are right about the GNI. Too many different figures ...

According to the article on GNI, "Gross National Income comprises the total value of goods and services produced within a country (i.e. its Gross Domestic Product), together with its income received from other countries (notably interest and dividends), less similar payments made to other countries. For example, if a British-owned company operating in another country sends some of their incomes (profits) back to UK, the UK’s GNI is enhanced. Similarly, the repatriation of profit from a US-owned company operating in the UK will count towards US GNI, but not affect UK GNI."

I guess that in the case of both Argentina and Mexico the GNI would be lower than the GDP, since there is more foreign investment in both Argentina and Mexico than investment of these countries abroad. But I have not found any numbers to check this theory. --Diegou 20:25, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

J. Alonso, thank you for your message on the GNI.

Alex, please let us know if you have any good reasons not to accept J. Alonso's proposal to correct the sentence we are discussing about. --Diegou 11:57, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Considering that nobody opposed, I have modified the sentence in a manner that I think it is acceptable. I did not touch the Demographics section since I think it is already well balanced, indicating the different sources of inmigration (economic reasons, exiles, U.S. expatriates, etc.)--Diegou 12:59, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Reverted the information deleted because there is no concensus. I don't know why you edited the section citing "concensus reached". That is false. So far there's only 2 people debating about this, and I'm revising their edit history because I suspect sockpuppetry. AlexCovarrubias ^{( Let's talk! )} 22:22, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Hey Alex let's cool down. We've been waiting for you to debate, but you haven't debated nor commented anything at all. Obviously, without talking there will be no consensus. Also, realize that you are reverting to your previous version, a version you don't even want to discuss. I don't know if you have read anything of what has been debated here, but at least realize that using the only measurement for "standard of living" (the HDI) Mexico's standard of living would be lower than that of Argentina, and then your version is simply false. There is no need to reach a consensus: false information should be deleted immediately, unless you can provide proof or a source that corroborates your version (say a different type of measurement in which Mexico ranks higher), which we would gladly accept and discuss. I strongly recommend you to read the article on Human Development Index, if you personally reject HDI, then I recommend you to revise the Key Development Data and Statistics published by the World Bank, where you can compare all those aspects that are included in the "standard of living" concept (i.e. literacy rate, school enrollment and completion, life expectancy, etc.) of both Mexico and Argentina. Like I said in my discussion, maybe you are confusing "better economic opportunities" with "standard of living". Sure, Mexico's economic opportunities are better, otherwise Argentines (or Cubans) would not emigrate to Mexico. Please at least discuss the issue with us and participate in the debate before accusing Diegou of not waiting for a consensus in which you have shown no interest in participating. I would gladly accept your information and discuss it, if you at least provide something other than your personal opinion.

--Alonso 23:11, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

P.S. I don't want to revert to Diegou's version, which you will probably re-revert, and start an edit war. But I will add a "citation needed" template to your statement. --Alonso 23:15, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Alex, you are not playing fair. Please kindly accept deleting the sentence you added while we are discussing here. As you may have noticed, the other two persons involved in this discussion think the sentence is wrong, and are providing serious reasons to think so. We still have not seen yours.--Diegou 23:20, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Diegou, I think you were mistaken in some concepts you exposed on the "United Mexican States" section of this talk page when speaking of standard of living. You can read my comments above. --Alonso 23:46, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. Yes, I was generalizing and should have been more specific. Regards. --Diegou 23:50, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

The language as it stands suggests that the reason for Mexico's large Argentine community is because of better living conditions. I don't think it's necessary to establish quantitatively whether Mexico or Argentina is a more pleasant place to live, but this sentence blatantly suggests that Mexico has a higher standard of living, which is dubious any way you look at it. Mexico is also home to the largest American (US) community outside of the United States, but one cannot automatically infer that this is because of superior living conditions in Mexico.Triphook 20:17, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

The aforementioned comment overlooks the fact that the better living conditions in Mexico for Argentinians might be due to them being slightly better educated due to Argentina's population being smaller and thus capitalising on the comparative advantages. Besides, the 2000 Argentine economic crisis and the corralito debunks the purported Argentine (economic?) superiority over the rest of Latin America, even though most argentinos and outsiders with a bias because Argentina has a majority of white people immigration often believe Argentina is better, and provide no reasons for such an irrational belief. Rodrigo Cornejo 01:31, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

First of all Rodrigo, I don't really appreciate the notion that I am biased because Argentina has more white people than Mexico, this is both ad hominem and incorrect. Second, I never claimed that Argentina was "superior" to Mexico, simply that its standard of living was comparable to that of Mexico, if not higher. The bottom line is that one cannot make the case that living conditions in Mexico are the driving force behind Argentine immigration. The fact that Argentina has a quantifiably higher standard of living, is completely irrelavent.Triphook 02:09, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

• Do we even need to make that comparison? If you just said that conditions in Mexico are {excellent | good | bad | horrible}, and then give some numbers, the reader can make his or her own conclusions. Titoxd^(?!?) 02:16, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I completely agree, and this is what I (and other peopler here) was trying to say. We are not trying to state in the article which of Argentina or Mexico is better than the other in terms of living standards or whatever. In fact, we have already shown here, and nobody was able to demonstrate the opposite, that it is not possible to sustain (as the article purports) that Mexico's living standard is higher than Argentina, considering the Human Development Index, GDP per capita, life expectancy, literacy, etc., which figures are current and not pre 2001 crisis.

Considering that the relevant numbers are already in the Mexico and Argentina articles, and taking into account that the comparison is controversial (as shown by this discussion), I agree with Tito, Triphook and Alonso that the sentence we are discussing about should be deleted.--Diegou 14:25, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I think we shouldn't be too hasty in trying to justify immigration, but I wouldn't be too hasty either in doing comparisons. Triphook made a good point on American and Argentine immigration, yet, like I said before, immigration is a complicated issue, and the nature of immigration is relevant as well. We can't compare American and Argentine immigration to Mexico: the great majority of the 1 million-plus American residents in Mexico are retirees, whereas the great majority of the Argentine residents in Mexico are within working age, and that does speak about the reasons or motives behind immigration.

I guess the controversial issue here is whether we want to say that a higher standard of living (whichever way you want to define it) is the driving force behind Argentine immigration (specifically, given that, so far,, nobody seems to contest the statement about Brazilian, Cuban or Central American immigration). As such maybe we should eliminate the connection between immigration and standard of living (I agree it is a plausible assumption, but nonetheless and assumption). Then I would suggest we provide specific reliable numerical data on several concepts related and/or included within the "standard of living" concept, to improve the quality of this section (instead of merely talking of subjective qualitative assumptions). In any case at least quantitatively we could make comparisons, if we need to compare at all. After reading the 2006 UN Development Programme Report (available here) I have to admit that I found a few surprises myself: life expectancy in Mexico is now actually higher than that of Argentina, adult literacy rate is roughly equivalent, percentage of population living in indigence (under $2 a day) is lower in Mexico and income per capita is higher if it is not adjusted to PPP, though, given that the Argentine peso is undervalued, when adjusted to PPP, income per capita in Argentina is higher. In many other aspects their achievements in development are roughly equal, though, in some (notably secondary and tertiary school enrollment and completion, access to sanitary services, and infant mortality rate) Argentina fares better. --Alonso 17:20, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

First of all, I have strong evidence showing J.Alonso and Diegou are the same person (WP:Sockpuppet) so I'm reporting this. Secondly, "3" persons are not a consensus and you should read the article about "What Wikipedia is not". It clearly states that it is not a democracy so, "votes" are not valid to fix a situation. You must not delete the sentence (now it has citation needed label). AlexCovarrubias ^{( Let's talk! )} 18:42, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Alex, as far as I know, I have only one personality, and certainly am not Alonso ;-). I have just checked and you have not fulfilled your threat of reporting the purported suckpuppet. Be my guest and do it, please, so an administrator can take a look at you behavior on this debate.

Second, how can you write a sentence with a "citation needed"? If you write something, it is assumed that you know that it is true and then it is not necessary to include the "citation needed". Now, if you write it and you put the "citation needed", that means that you are aware that you are INVENTING something, because you have doubts yourself. Can you please explain this to all this people who have been making efforts showing their ideas?

Third, in spite of all the arguments from different persons in this chapter, you have not provided any valid idea to sustain the sentence but words like "bias", "nationalistic", "sockpuppet" and the like.

Do you dare facing all the arguments shown here? --Diegou 19:17, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I did not include the "citation needed" template. It was added by another person but I respect it because it is true: even if we all know the largest Argentinan community outside-country is in Mexico, we need to present a source. So I will, but until I do it, it was reasonable to leave that tag added by some other user.AlexCovarrubias ^{( Let's talk! )} 21:54, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Alex:

• Your suspicions about me and Diegou being the same user are unfounded and, unless you are a bureaucrat you cannot see the IP addresses of registered users, you can only see addresses of anonymous users, in which case your strong evidence is mere speculation. But hey, report us, you will only make a fool of yourself.
• Secondly, you are acting arbitrarily by inserting your own version without even participating in the discussion (I don't even know if you at least have taken the time to read our comments). You are not even putting at least some effort into reaching a consensus. By the way, nobody ever talked about voting. But like I said before we need no consensus (and ergo, no voting) when it comes to deleting statements that are proven false. Since you have not shown any verifiable proof of your statement, and if you continue to reinsert it without making an effort to participate on this debate, your actions are bordering on vandalism. But if you participate constructively (instead of inserting only personal opinions and ad hominem comments) we will definitely be able not only to reach a consensus but to have a better article.
• Thirdly consensus is reached with participating users. If only three users participate (and so far there have been 6 not 3), and all six agree, we've reached a consensus. Consensus is not reached by the hundreds of thousands of registered users, but only by those that are active in the discussion. Otherwise, nothing in this encyclopedia will ever reach a consensus. We invite you, kindly, to participate on the debate.

--Alonso 20:17, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I strongly refuse to talk to both of you as separate persons, because again, I have strong evidence that you are the same person. I will file a sockpuppetry complaint soon, when this matter is really relevant because the "rules" to file a complaint are very clear: cases with less than one week are useless. So, I'm waiting. And thanks God for the IP log and contributions log. It will prove me right.AlexCovarrubias ^{( Let's talk! )} 21:54, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Fine with me. I don't care if you refuse to talk to us as separate persons, as long as you participate on this debate. Secondly, as an administrator of one wikipedia, let me give you a piece of advise, since I guess you haven't even read the "clear" rules about sockpuppetry. If you had actually read the rules for reporting suspected sock puppeters you would have noticed that cases that are older than one week are useless. It says "older". So you don't have to wait. Go ahead and report us, you will be proven wrong. But like I said, as a common user, you cannot see the IP addresses of registered users. Not even us administrators can, so your threats are unfounded. Now given your attitude, and your insistence on reverting edits without participating on the debate, I am thinking of reporting you of vandalism. Please, again and for the last time, I ask you to participate constructively on this debate. --Alonso 22:10, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

• Both of you, knock it off. There's no need to throw sockpuppetry and vandalism accusations around. And for the record, I do have the sysop bit on, so stop edit warring and start discussing unless you want to run into the electric fence. Now, if we do want to get really grounded on policy, the sentence has to go, as it violates WP:V, until someone finds a source. Titoxd^(?!?) 00:07, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Titoxd, like I said I am an admin at another wikipedia [1], not at this wikipedia, just in case you didn't read my comment correctly and were accusing me of not having the "sysop". And at least on our wiki, admins cannot see the IPs of registered users but upon request. If that is not the case in this wiki, I would very much appreciate if you could direct me to the appropriate meta page to request that feature for our wiki. Now, if you had followed the debate you would have realized that we have been telling Alex, ever since the beginning, that there is no proof of his statement; and that the only quantitative measurement for standard of living is the HDI (which in itself is debatable) and it would prove him wrong, since Argentina's HDI is higher than that of Mexico. Therefore, the sentence had to go, and I don't think a consensus has to be reached for that, but I asked Diegou to wait for Alex to respond before making any changes so that he could provide a verifiable source for his claim. His repeated reversions to his previous statements while ignoring the debate (except for accusing me of sockpuppetry) do constitute if not vandalism (I might have exaggerated) at least a violation of basic etiquette. --Alonso 00:32, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

So, as far as I am making the numbers OK, (a) Alonso, Triphook, Tito and I are in favor of removing the sentence since it cannot be verified (unless Alex thinks we are all the same person, in which case we (or I should say "I") would be only one ;-)), and (b) Alex thinks that the sentence should keep though he admits himself that he cannot verify it (he is including a "citation needed"). I am not sure what is the position of Rodrigo Cornejo regarding the sentence, but please Rodrigo let us know yours if you want. Consequently, since nobody (not even Alex) has provided any verifiable data to keep the sentence, if nobody opposes with arguments that are not ad hominem I would delete the sentence as adviced by Tito (who I am sure is a person different from me, but I am not sure regarding Alonso and Triphook ;-)) as it violates WP:V, until someone finds a source. --Diegou 12:10, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, Alex insists on keeping the sentence even when he does not bother in explainig why. We tried to encourage Alex Covarrubias to debate here or at least let us know what he thinks, but its only arguments were ad hominem attacks (using words like "nationalistic", "bias", "sockpuppetry" and the like).

I am not an experienced Wikipedian. What should it do in a case like this? Report it as vandalism? --Diegou 14:05, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I hate to break it off, but the highest living standards countries in Latin America are 1. Uruguay, 2. Puerto Rico, 3. Chile, 4. Costa Rica, and 5. Venezuela. I know Brazil and Mexico belong to the top 10, so does the U.S. territory of Puerto Rico, the Netherlands Antilles belonging to Holland, and French West Indies/French Guiana, legally parts of France. Many British west Indies colonies and nations tied to Great Britain are up there, but not sure the rank but the British emphasized democracy, progress and security. Now to explain Mexico isn't in the top 10, but has advanced beyond most of Latin America to some exceptions is easily analyzed and studied, because Mexico is supposedly have a large middle-class, and at the same time nearly half the people are seriously or nearly poor. If the country tries to keep track of population growth (once a 3% annual growth rate in the 1970s and 1980s), promoted better educational standards for lower-classes and rural interior areas, and even provide actual social welfare like the U.S. and Canada has to their lowest income strata, things won't be drastic and chaotic like it has been for 30 or 40 years. The "economic miracle" focused on industrialization, deregulated banking practices and public educational methods closely based on American capitalism and European socialism, but corruption and mishandling of these programs had negative consequences being felt by Mexican society today. Mexico's current economic condition and now the political instability after a closely tied election by two corrupt political parties replaced the previous one-party system, might not been as worse and troubling than Mexicans have to live with. The Mexican people throughout it's history had lived with various degrees of difficulty and as a byproduct of colonial Spain destroyed five highly-advanced Amerindian empires in the present-day country, a proud people aware of their Amerindian heritage and represent the world's largest Spanish-speaking country. To compare living standards for Mexico with Argentina isn't meant to defame Mexican culture or race (i.e. the history of race relations with Mexican Americans in the Southwest US, and that Argentina has a "white" European majority), but a look in the failures after successful advancements in Mexico is a sure warning for other third world leaders (i.e. China, India, Brazil, Turkey, Egypt, Nigeria, Indonesia and Russia-former Soviet countries) to keep themselves in order and to improve the way their country works by fighting mass poverty, corrective measures to end corruption and continue to promote development in education, industry and social progress. 63.3.14.1 14:34, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I didn't get your point. You are providing another "ranking" for standard of living without citing your source. And your ranking is surprising given that after reading the 2006 UN Develop't Programme Report, only HDI is used for ranking and it doesn't follow that order (see: List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index). In any case if you provide a source for your ranking we would consider it before making any changes. --Alonso 14:48, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Again, this is not a contest to see who has a better standard of living than who. It has been demonstrated here that it is not possible to argue that Mexico has a living standard higher than Argentina (and I am not saying that the opposite is true). Thus, since the sentence we are discussing about implies something that cannot be verified, it should be deleted it.--Diegou 15:01, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

OK, here I go again. Since Alex Covarrubias is the only person here who opposed deleting the sentence (I am not sure what Rodrigo Cornejo and 63.3.14.1 think on this specific issue, but they are invited to do so), and we do not know his reasons, I kindly invite Alex again to let us know his arguments. In case he does not try to reach a consensus by explaining why he thinks the sentence should be included within, let's say, one week from now, and nobody opposes it, I will delete it. --Diegou 15:34, 5 December 2006 (UTC) HUGHES! This could help you O.o

I support the deletion of this sentence as unnecessary and contentious, SqueakBox 22:48, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

First I'll address this: "The bottom line is that one cannot make the case that living conditions in Mexico are the driving force behind Argentine immigration. The fact that Argentina has a quantifiably higher standard of living, is completely irrelavent.Triphook 02:09, 4 December 2006 (UTC)" If it isn't the comparative advantage argentines have when coming to Mexico, or if Mexico has such apalling living conditions as every outsider seems to depict the country's situation... then why do Argentines come to Mexico? Because they are so good looking and they want to get the mexican women? I don't think so. The side that supports Argentina's overwhelming superiority over the "backwater" country Mexico is should ask themselves why Mexico has the greatest argentine diaspora in the world. Secondly, I strongly support keeping the sentence. If we're going to start asking for sources and putting "citation needed templates" in things that require common sense then I think I don't like Wikipedia anymore. I hope that this doesn't escalate and that next time I write "2+2= 4" somebody says it's an unsourced statement and that I need provide evidence of that. Rodrigo Cornejo 02:24, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Political oppression? Heck, better weather? The fact that there are a ton of persons with an Argentinan background in Mexico doesn't necessarily mean that Mexico has better conditions than Argentina; it doesn't mean than Mexico has inferior conditions either, as correlation is not the same thing as causality. It seems like drawing our own conclusions, which is, as you well know, prohibited by Wikipedia policy. I don't see why the sentence should be there. You can say that Mexico has a trillion-dollar economy, and other facts, but it is not Wikipedia's purpose to try to analyze and declare that X country is better than another. (P.S: I, for one, find your characterization of us thinking of Mexico as an "inferior backwater" as quite off-the-mark, since I am a Mexican citizen, for what it is worth...) Titoxd^(?!?) 02:57, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

True Rodrigo, it is Mexico's comparative advantage that draws Argentines to Mexico (and comparative advantage could well be better weather, less political oppression or economics!) That is, indeed, common sense. However, comparative advantage and standard of living are two different things. I could even say (to me it sounds very logical) that "better economic opportunities" are the reason that is driving Argentines to Mexico, but again, "better economic opportunities" and standard of living are two different things. And even if we could rephrase the sentence to say that "it is comparative advantage" or "better economic opportunities are driving Argentine emigrants to Mexico", we still have to reference our claim. In case you haven't read all the discussion above, immigration is a very complex issue, and common sense not always applies. For example, Mexico has the greatest US-citizens community [diaspora] abroad, estimated at an amazing 1 million (more than 6 times greater than the Argentine diaspora). Yet common sense tells me it is not "higher standards of living" the driving force behind this migratory phenomenon. Comparative advantage makes sense to me, yet comparative advantage is the force that has driven 6 million Mexicans to the US, and Mexico's net migration rate is negative (the largest in absolute terms in LA). You see, immigration is far more complex than what common sense or a single statistic can convey.

Even if you strongly support [unproven] causation (standard of living drives immigration), the problem here is how are we suppose to define (or measure) standard of living. Standard of living is usually measured by GDP per capita in purchasing power parity ([2], p. 276). If this is the case, then we incur in a contradiction since Argentina's GDP PPP per capita is 13,000+ USD, while Mexico's GDP PPP per capita is 10,000+ USD. Another measurement is HDI (even though the definition of HDI includes standard of living, making it circular). HDI includes education (school enrollment and completion) life expectancy, literacy rate, mortality rates, and many other aspects. But then again we incur in a contradiction since Argentina's HDI is also higher than Mexico's. Yet Cuba's HDI is also higher than Mexico's, in spite of Cuba being much, much poorer than both.

My point is, immigration is much more complex than x causes y. Moreover, the concept of standard of living is also much more complex than merely economic opportunities or GDP and includes many other concepts in which Mexico fares better than Argentina, and others in which it doesn't, which makes the causation, at best, imprecise, and we do better by leaving it out. And like Titoxd pointed out, we are not supposed to do any original research here. --Alonso 03:44, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Jha! Talk about political opression in a country with Mexico's history. Titoxd, are you sure political oppresion would be a reason for argentines to move to Mexico more than they being able to capitalise opportunities their country doesn't provide? And we're not trying to illustrate the compexity of the migratory phenomenon here, just briefly explaining why there is an argentine diaspora in Mexico. The sentence is too controversial it seems. Oh well, we'll never reach a compromise here so I give up. Argentina is better than Mexico, and so is Cuba (by HDI). You can hang on to that belief, I won't try to explain why I disagree. If you want to base everything in statistics without giving not even a brief interpretation, fine. Rodrigo Cornejo 05:29, 9 December 2006 (UTC) and I am a mexican citizen too Titoxd, but well that doesn't mean I have to be uncritical of the foreigners perception of Mexico as a desert full of people with sombreros that drink Tequila 24/7

I find the stereotypical argument in relations to "how foreigners think" made by Rodrigo inappropriate (as it does not assume good faith) and inaccurate, as many of us discussing the issue are, in fact, Mexican. I believe the discussion over a single sentence is getting way out of proportion. For the most part, regardless of our nationalities and "personal beliefs" we should focus on research and reliable statistics, since Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a forum.

I have asked all participants to read the UN Development Report so that our discussion would be more precise and academic and not based on our biases, perceptions, opinions and beliefs which are, by nature, subjective. If we can summarize most of the academic (non-personal) statements of the discussion above, which deserve our consideration, they can be presented as follows:

• It is precisely because of the complex nature of the migration phenomena of Mexico (both immigration and emigration), that we cannot accurately pinpoint any reason (other than our personal opinion) as to why Argentines immigrate to Mexico anymore that we can do it for other immigration groups, (like American citizens, which, obviously, do not come into Mexico because of a "higher" standard of living, and their "diaspora" is six times larger than that of Argentina). A significant percentage of the Argentine community in Mexico did immigrate escaping from political persecution during the military dictatorship. Nonetheless the recent new wave of immigration has been mostly "illegal" and there are no reliable documents (at the SRE in Mexico) neither to provide an exact number of immigrants nor their motives. Common sense, however, seems to indicate that "better economic opportunities" would be the reasons behind Argentine immigration. But we should be aware that we can't compare 2+2=4 to a complex phenomenon and infer a simple logical causation.
• "Better economic opportunities" is not the same thing as "standard of living", and "standard of living" is included, but does not entirely constitute the Human development index, as I had previously said before. For the UN "standard of living" (and used in part to construct their HDI) is measured by GDP PPP per capita, or income per capita in purchasing power parity. Income in PPP is not "real" (the actual amount of dollars) but "artificial" in that an exchange rate (or parity) is artificially constructed by comparing the different price indices between countries. In countries with a lower cost of living a specific fixed "real" income buys more of the same stuff than in countries with a higher cost of living, hence their "purchasing power" is greater. This is the case with Argentina, that in spite of having an income per capita below 4,000 USD (whereas Mexico has an income above 7,000 USD), it has a higher "standard of living" because the purchasing power of those 4,000 (following the economic debacle and the devaluation of the Argentine peso of 2002) is equivalent to 13,000 USD (i.e. the cost of living is low), whereas the Mexican income of 7,000+ USD has the purchasing power of 10,000 USD (i.e. cost of living is higher). If we were to say that "standard of living" alone is the cause of immigration (as measured by GDP PPP) we incur in a contradiction. If it were just by this fact, the sentence has to be either eliminated or edited. Of course, we can argue as to whether GDP PPP per capita is a good indicator of standard of living or not (I personally don't think it is a good measurement), but this is not a forum, and for the most part, most international organizations use it.
• Even if we edit and just say "better economic opportunities are causing immigration from other countries like Argentina...", instead of saying "standard of living", I personally believe, that we should still provide a reliable source for the claim.

So far the options have been "eliminate it" or "keep it as it is". Has anybody ever thought of a third option?

--Alonso 20:36, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

After reading all what has been said here, I also believe that the sentence is fine as it is. In the Demographics chapter the issue of immigration (and emigration) is already considered extensively, and the Standard of Living chapter focuses specifcally on that. Any link between both issues should be carefully demonstrated. As Alonso says, the emigration matter is quite complex, and the reasons for emigration are not only economic but also political and social. If someone finds any studies regarding this matter, it should be cited in the Demographics chapter and not in Standard of Living.--Diegou 01:48, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

I have been following this debate since it begins (Could you be more specific ? where…) on November 22.

And I must say, I can’t believe it. I can’t believe how many Mexicans try so hard (despite all arguments against) to keep a sentence that doesn’t provide anything to the ultimate objective of wikipedia, knowledge.

And I wonder, why is that?

Sadly, I think we all know why is that. Is because the sentence, that sentence, haves a negative connotation to Argentina. Simply as that. I do not assume good faith ? Guilty as charge.

But what else can I think ? Since no other argument has been exposed?

Once and again and again Alonso invited the other users to share their arguments, and also Diegou did.

Most than personal believes, nothing.

Why the Mexicans do that ?? why??? They don’t want just say “we are fine, we have a good quality of life, we are happy”. No. They need to mark a difference. They must state a difference. They need to say “we live better than argentines, that’s why there is a lot of them living in Mexico”. Even if that is not true.

I mean… look at the title of this section!!! “Mexico’s standard of living as compared whit Argentina’s” !!!!!!!!!!!

Why there should be a comparison?? why they must compare one to another ???

Mexico’s page is the only page I have found (so far) whit a chapter entitled “Standard of living”.

No other page has it!! Nor Norway has it (the country whit the highest HDI in the entire world!), nor Argentina has it (the highest in LA), nor Japan (the highest in Asia) has it !! no one !!!

And the Argentina page said “we have a better standard of living than México”?? NO. “We are better than brazil”??? NO. We could say that, because is true, but no thanx.

Also, Argentina is the country whit the highest immigrant population within ALL Latin America, almost two and a half times more than Mexico (1.500.000 / 644.000). Immigrants represent to Argentina a 3.9%, while in Mexico is only a 0.6%. Argentina is the 28º country in the entire world elected by people from other countries to live in and the 1º in LA. So ? That give us the right to say “they came because we are better”?? they came because we have higher standards of living ? they came because in their countries are worst economic opportunities ?

No sir, we do not speculate about that. We don’t argue why they are here. They came. Period. And they are welcome.

What about USA, home of the largest Mexican “Diaspora”??? 7.000.000 of immigrants, totaling a whopping 26.000.000??? they said “a quarter of their population came to our country looking better opportunities??” NO.

I mean, we are talking of the biggest “Diaspora” of ANY country in the world, more than 170 times the SUPPOSED argentine colony in México!! Let see what the USA page said about that: “Immigrants from Mexico make up about 66% of the Hispanic community,[70] and are second only to the German-descent population in the single-ethnicity category.”. :That’s it. That’s all. No suppositions, no conjectures.

Again, sadly, it seems to be if there is a minor opportunity, for insignificant it is, to say something bad about Argentina, to say something pejorative about Argentina, to say something degrading to Argentina, that opportunity will be taken by some Mexicans.

And I must clearly say “SOME” Mexicans. Thanks God, not all of them think that way, not all of them are based on prejudices, and to me, it was a relief to read Alonso’s NPOV arguments. ALONSO, TE GANASTE MI RESPETO.

That sentence must go. Why? Because is speculative, subjective and unverifiable. Not only about argentines, also about Cubans and Brazilians. But most than anything, because that sentence has no porpoise more than try to state a xenophobic comparison. And all we debating here, known that is so true. Disgusting, but true.

But wasn’t enough whit that sentence, they need more.

And since we are debating about the argentines in Mexico and what is true and what no, this sentence also must go:

“… many other Latin American emigrants, many from Argentina (making Mexico home to the largest Argentine population outside of Argentina, an estimated 150,000[3] in 2005. [5])”

Why? Again, word by word, the same reasons given above. Speculative, subjective and unverifiable, plus xenophobic.

The cited source isn’t more than a newspaper article, not a single one official source certifies that. Even the same sentence said “an estimated”!!!

That, by itself, goes AGAINST any wikipedia POLICY.

But here comes the best: the same article states “Según los últimos datos provistos por la Secretaría de Gobernación mexicana, los argentinos residentes en México serían alrededor de 10.600. Sin embargo, se estima que están viviendo allí alrededor de 150.000 conciudadanos.”

"La comunidad argentina en México es un verdadero misterio. Según los datos oficiales somos sólo 10 mil registrados, pero si le preguntás al hombre de la calle te dirá: `seguramente hay un millón de ches"

“The argentine community in México is truly a mystery. According to the official records we are only 10.000, but if you ask to the man on the streets he will say: surely there is a million of ches”

“If you ask the people on the streets…!!!” That’s a verifiable source!!

Does anyone EVER read that source???? I mean, anyone whit a NPOV.

We all know that illegal immigration exists. In Argentina, Mexico, USA and everywhere.

OK. But never, repeat, NEVER I saw any country where the illegal immigration was fifteen times!!!! the legal one.

Two? sure. five? mmmmm…. maybe. ten? don’t think so. fifteen? IMPOSSIBLE.

Traditionally, the main destinations for the argentines were Spain and Italy, due an historical background. The first time I read “Mexico home to the largest Argentine population” I thought, “that’s new!!”. But almost everything is possible. So, I did my research.

As far there is a Mexican community in Argentina (http://www.angeldemexico.com.ar/) why not vice versa? but… the “largest”? mmmm….

Lets see what I found:

1º As already I said, and the article say (what is more than enough) that statement is based on an estimation, a presumption, of “el hombre de la calle”. Quite a source.

2º The same article talks about the official data, 10.600 argentines. Not 10.599, not 16.601. 10.600

3º Is the only “source” that certifies that. Of course, cited in every wikipedia article about demographics of México.

4º When you go to check the “reference” ([3]) at the bottom of the page, besides that is not a reference at all, this is what you found “Excluding those born in Mexico,”… O_o !!! Sorry, but… I mean…. this is soooooo… sorry again…. lol. I must try to keep my etiquette. Including them how many they are?? four, five millions??? In case you didn’t read the “reference” (the other one, the newspaper article, not that comment) not even the same article says nothing about that!!! NOTHING. That’s pure fantasy, an invention!!! ANOTHER ONE.

5º Remember what I said about Spain and Italy? This will be very interesting. Spain: “According to the Spanish government there were 3.7 million foreign residents in Spain in 2005; independent estimates put the figure at 4.8 million or 11.1% of total population (Red Cross, World Disasters Report 2006). According to residence permit data for 2005, around 500,000 were Moroccan, another half a million were Ecuadorian, more than 200,000 were Romanians and 270,000 were Colombian. Other important foreign communities are British (6.09% of all the foreign residents), Argentine (6.10%), German (3.58%) and Bolivian (2.63%). In 2005, a regularization programme increased the legal immigrant population by 700,000 people.”

Lets do the mats: 3.7 m / 100 * 6.10= 225.700. say what???? 225.700 argentines living in Spain. But… the biggest argentine “Diaspora” is in México!!! the journalist who wrote an article for a newspaper asked somebody on the streets and he supposes that!!! who say that this supposition of the people of the streets is not true??

The INE, Instituto Nacional de Estadística de España, an OFFICIAL agency.

Not a newspaper, not a conjecturer, not even... “the people from the streets”

And that, IS A FACT.

To be more accurate, the OFFICIAL records said exactly 152.975 argentines. The wikipedia´s Spain page talks about 225.700, that means 1.5 times the official count, which is pretty logical. Not 5, 10 or 15 times the official data.

So, a quick resume:

Mexican official records: 10.600 argentines living in Mexico.

“mexican people from the streets conjecture”: 150.000 argentines living in México.

Spanish official records: 152.975 argentines living in Spain.

“spanish people from the streets conjecture”: they don’t do that.

Spanish residences permit data 2005: 225.700 argentines living in Spain.

Difference between official records and conjectures / residence permits:

Mexico: 15 times.

Spain: 1.5 times.

Conclusion:

In México DO NOT LIVE THE LARGEST ARGENTINE COMMUNITY.

Wikipedia, should be, MUST BE, based on reliable, verifiable and probed information. NOT on conjectures. NOT on prejudices. NOT on beliefs. NOT ON PEOPLE FROM THE STREETS.

Ergo, that sentence must go. And not only from this page, from every wikipedia page that states that, because THAT IS FALSE. :Otherwise, we could start asking to our neighbors questions like “how many Bengalis do you think lives in our country?” and based on what they say or they think, then we came and write an article.--Wikidrian 19:20, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

The only thing I want to say to that is that not all Mexicans want the sentence to stay... it's a bit unfair to put us all in the same "bloc", if you want to call it that. Titoxd^(?!?) 19:28, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Yeah Argentina is better than Mexico... it is sooo better than still, Argentines continue to come to Mexico. How many Mexicans in Argentina? =) And yeah, you might want to say "Mexicans go to the US because it is closer". Well, then why Argentines aren't going to the US also? =) Yeah, you keep thinking your country is better... if that satisfies you. But also, try to convince your fellows Argentines in our country. AlexCovarrubias ^{( Let's talk! )} 21:44, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Alex, calm down. Are you even looking at the arguments? Any ways, who cares if Argentina or Mexico is better off? (By the way, GDP per capita IS a good indication)... Really, why should a page about a country be used to compare it to another country? And if Mexico is so great, why does it care to be compared to Argentina? In any case, both are shadows of economies when compared to Brazil, or even better, the United States. Does it matter? Does that make Mexico less great, or less beautiful, or less competitive?

On the other hand, reliable sources and good faith discussions help make wikipedia a more accurate and comprehensive encyclopedia. This article needs to grow, and if we continue debating weather Mexico or Argentina should be the 55th or 60th economy per capita in the world, well, it will get us nowhere. Hari Seldon 23:08, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

"They are both shadows of economies compared to Brazil??", excuse me?, Mexican economy is so close to the Brazilian one, even thought argentine economy goes third after Mexico, there is nothing to compare between the first two and the third one, Mexican and Brazilian Economy are like 4/5 times bigger that the argentine economy and they are both two of the biggest on earth, so I don’t mean to be rude but please do your research before posting. --Supaman89

Of course, supaman, you missed the point entirely. My point is that comparisons are not what is most important for this article.

However, I will answer your criticism of Brazil. According to the List of countries by GDP (PPP) article, Brazil is the 9th economy in the World, Mexico is the 13th, and Argentina is the 22nd. The following figures are in millions of "international" dollars: (i.e. 1 = 1 000 000)

Brazil has a GDP (PPP) of $1,576,728, Mexico has a GDP (PPP) of $1,072,563, and Argentina has a GDP (PPP) of $533,722. This was for the year 2005.

The difference between the three is not comparable. The difference between Brazil and Mexico is $504,165 million of International dollars, and the difference between Mexico and Argentina is $538,841 million of International dollars. As you can see, at a difference of more than 500,000 millions of currency, Mexico is shadowed by Brazil, in the same way that Argentina is shadowed by Mexico.

Now, that is for the overall value of the economy, but when it comes to GDP per capita (PPP), Argentina is 50th in the list, and Mexico is 65th. The difference may be explained by the fact that Argentina has a smaller population. However, when it comes to GDP per capita per hour (meaning, how much is produced per hour per capita), Mexico is 43rd and Argentina is 40th. Indeed, it can be argued that Mexico's and Argentina's economy per capita, and per capita per hour is similar enough for it to make no significant difference whatsoever.

Comparing the Mexican economy to the Argentine economy is a futile attempt, and an unnecessary one for this article. If any comparison would be valuable to a reader, it would be the one to the US economy. Any other comparison is just empty nationalism that does not help the reader of the article, and that is not valuable for wikipedia.

In short, it doesn't matter which economy is better. The article should not include this comparison, or any comparison at all except against the world's largest economies, so that the comparison can be helpful to the reader.

Additionally, it may be added that Mexico is a G-20 nation, a category of middle-developed countries that include Brazil and Argentina (and South Korea, and South Africa, and a dozen other nations). It is unimportant what economic position Mexico has with respect to the other G-20 countries. Whats important is that Mexico is properly categorized and gives a useful reference to the reader. Hari Seldon 18:53, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Just for the record: Alex Covarrubias made on this talk page an unfair accusation of sockpuppetry against me, and never apologized for such false attack. Finally, he filed a case, which is ongoing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Suspected_sock_puppets/J.Alonso

I am making this matter public to defend my reputation, and so everybody can have their own conclusions by reading the content and the depth of the arguments of the different persons involved in that discussion. I think that "the light of the sun is the best disinfectant", and that exposing publicly the behavior of the accuser of the purported sockpuppetry will make Wikipedia better.--Diegou 19:47, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Yeah you're right the economy issue goes out of context but as you said just for the record let me put you the "total GDP 2005"[[3]] (Millions of US dollars):

10. Brazil - 794,098
13. Mexico - 768,438
32. Argentina - 183,309

Anyways, I don't even remember what we were debating about, did anyone ask to remove something related to Mexico's and Argentina's standarts of living? did they already do it? if so, I think we're done here --Supaman89

Yes, you're right, this matter ended some time ago, and everybody agrees on the current wording of the article. I am not sure why there are still debates here. Anyway, an interesting offspring of this debate is the false sockpuppetry accusation by Alex Covarrubias; you can amuse yourself in the link I provided in my prior post.--Diegou 21:03, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Supaman89, Diegou, what we are debating here (by now) is ANOTHER speculative, subjective and unverifiable sentence, as I already said on my prior post. Please review all the arguments exposed to support that.

So far, the best argument against that was “Yeah, you keep thinking your country is better... if that satisfies you” (!!!) by Alex. Please let us know what you both think about this debate.

Tito, I didn’t put all of you on the same “bloc”. That’s why I said “ ...“SOME” Mexicans. Thanks God, not all of them think that way, not all of them are based on prejudices... ”

I think is pretty obvious here who is based on prejudices and who’s not.

Alex, maybe you didn’t understand what we are debating here. If that is the case, please, read carefully all the previous posts. This is not a forum, where people came to say what they think about if a country is better to another. That’s not the subject. If argentines continues going to Mexico, please, show us some statistics. Otherwise, that’s (ANOTHER) conjecture. How many Mexicans in Argentina?? I don’t know, do your research. But what I know is how many argentines in Mexico: 10.600, no more, no less. And that is OFFICIAL. And what I also know is that in Mexico DO NOT LIVE THE LARGEST ARGENTINE COMMUNITY. Why do Mexicans go to Argentina / USA? Or Argentines go to Mexico / USA? I don’t know, I don’t care. Again, That’s not the subject. I don’t think our country is better. Better in what? There are thousands of measurable matters. And this is not about what we think. That’s the point. That’s all about. This is about Facts against believes. Here we were discussing about standard´s of living and immigration.

Fact: 10.600 argentines living in Mexico

Belief: 150.000

Fact: Argentina ranked seventeen places above Mexico in the HDI.

Belief: Mexico is better than Argentina.

“Yeah, you keep thinking your country is better... if that satisfies you” No. Is not what I think, nor what I believe. Is what the UN says, at least about quality of life. Nothing more, nothing less. :Here are no place for thoughts or beliefs.

“But also, try to convince your fellows Argentines in our country.” Ok. But you do the same whit your fellows Mexicans in our country, if that satisfies you. :D But do not use the HDI as an argument, it will be a little contradictory and problematic for you. ;)

Alex, your sayings are my best argument, my best proof, about all I said before is right. To certify all I said on my prior post, about xenophobia, believes, lack of proofs and subjective and speculative sentences, we only need to read all your comments on this debate. They speak for them self. Thank you for corroborate all I have been saying. Really, Thank you.--Wikidrian 16:12, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Wikidrian: Lets just drop this argument. Again, the purpose of this article is not a comparison, much less against Argentina. Hari Seldon 17:22, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Wikidrian. This is not a forum. The controversial sentence has already been modified. This discussion is over. Wikipedia is not a forum to discuss whether one country is better. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and the controversial issue has already been settled and the sentence removed. There is absolutely no need to continue this argument. --Alonso 17:53, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Hari Seldon, Alonso. Did you read my first post? I am not who is doing the comparisons. I am against that since the beginning. I am who said (copy/paste) “Why there should be a comparison?? why they must compare one to another ???” ok?

I know that the original controversial sentence about why a person emigrates has gone. What I am saying, is about other sentence. “Mexico is also home for many other Latin American emigrants, many from Argentina (making Mexico home to the largest Argentine population outside of Argentina, an estimated 150,000[3] in 2005. [5]).”

This sentence is under the “Demographics” chapter, and has not been modified. Not under “Standards of living”. It’s a different sentence. I already expose all the arguments about why that is false, including official stats. If nobody will say anything about why this sentence should stay, I will proceed to erase it. That’s what I am debating. Not about what originates the migrations. Please, read my first post. We are talking about different subjects. The first one, settled. The second one, no. If you say this controversial issue, about the supposed largest argentine population outside Argentina, not about what causes the immigration, has already been settled, please link me to page with the conclusions, because here nothing has been told against my arguments. Maybe we should open a new discussion subject to avoid this misunderstands. If you agree, go ahead.--Wikidrian 00:26, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Wikidrian, with all due respect your first contribution contained dozens of ad hominem attacks towards personal users. Please review wikipedia's policies for etiquette, since you are new here. Do not confuse criticism towards other users with arguments. We haven't criticized you the way you did at your first contribution, nor the way you criticized "Mexicans" in general.

Secondly, either you failed to see the point in the La Nación article, you fail to understand the migration phenomena around the world or you fail to understand statistics. You claim that there are only 10.600 Argentines in Mexico no more, no less. That is not true. There are 10,600 legal Argentines in Mexico, no more, no less. There are also probably 1 million legal Mexicans in the US, no more no less. Yet, estimations of illegal immigration are a different matter. There are around 4-6 million illegal Mexicans in the US. The Argentine community in Mexico is estimated at 150,000 (and if you read the entire article, some even claim a number close to a million, adding the immigration from the 1970s during the military dictatorship), yet, for all purposes, the consensus is 150,000 amongst estimations of legal+illegal Argentines. That is why the sentence says "estimated at 150,000" which is, true. For example, in 2003 Reforma, showed a similar figure for Argentines with FM-2 (legal 5-year resident status in Mexico) or FM-3 (legal 1-year resident status), yet they also reported that the SRE registered close to half a million Argentines coming into Mexico in 2003. Obviously, statistically you need to remove those that come for business or pleasure and those who while staying illegally, emigrate to the US. Statistically, the estimation was at 1/4 of the figure. Since you cannot have a clear estimate of illegal immigration (even though all foreigners leaving Mexico must also file a visa form before boarding a plane), they use statistic resources. Unless you want to call the statisticians that reported 150,000 for la Nación as "incompetent", the figure is, for the most part, valid. I hope I have been clear.

--Alonso 01:20, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

J Alonso, if the claim that Mexico has such a large Argentinean colony is true (which, in my experience, it might be), then I suggest that the sentence remains, since it does provide important information on the demographical composition of Mexico (i.e., it is not just a nation of Mexicans, but a nation of immigrants, a fact that is sometimes forgotten). Indeed, many of the people I know here in Mexico are immigrants, and I think that what is called for is a re-write so that the sentence's connotation can be interpreted less as an attack on Argentina, and more as a statement of Mexico's status as a home for immigrants. (I.e., it would be a good idea to get some more information on the immigrant colonies from other nations or cultural groups)... Hari Seldon 06:13, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Like I said, I oppose its elimination. But after reviewing Wikidrian's long argument, I see some valid points. For one thing, all estimations, be it Reforma, la Nación, or American Citizens Abroad, of illegal immigrants are not precise. His calculation of Argentines in Spain makes sense. What I propose is this: rewrite the sentence so as to mention the fact that there is a significant proportion of Argentines in Mexico and that some estimate it at 150,000 (La Nación and Reforma). Since Wikidrian's calculations of Argentines in Spain make sense, until a valid source that compares all illegal immigrants across countries, we should eliminate the claim that says that Mexico is home to the largest Argentine diaspora. It is hard to make this claim given the discrepancies between statistics. --Alonso 15:45, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Now we are talking !! Alonso, whit all due respect, please tell me exactly where or when I criticized “Mexicans” in general. Once and again I said that “some” Mexicans must state a pejorative comparison whit Argentina, and that seems to be the only reason to some sentences to be here. SOME Mexicans don’t means “mexicans in general”. Even I took my time to write a single paragraph to leave that perfectly clear. You invited Alex, in several occasions, to share their arguments, and all that you get was a sock puppetry accusation. Am I wrong?

If a valid and reasonable argument to keep that sentence is exposed, then I could see it in a different way, but there wasn’t an argument at all. That’s why I think this is all about a xenophobic matter against Argentines. Some Mexicans, I repeat, SOME Mexicans, are confusing patriotism whit xenophobia.

I am not the first person who used words like “bias, nationalistic, sock puppetry, practical joke” etc etc etc on this debate. Anyway, I said it, you said it: “This is not a forum. The controversial sentence has already been modified. This discussion is over. Wikipedia is not a forum to discuss whether one country is better. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and the controversial issue has already been settled and the sentence removed. There is absolutely no need to continue this argument.”

Done.

Now, you are partially right when you say I am new here. I am new whit an account. But I have been participating as an anonymous user for a long time. I am new as a registered user, but I am not new to wikipedia. As far as I know, an anonymous / new user opinion is so valid as the one for a registered user.

Secondly, you say I haven’t been criticized. Until now. One way or another, it seems I failed. I am not claiming that there are only 10.600 Argentines in Mexico no more, no less. An official Mexican agency claims that. Not me. Besides what you said about the supposed 150.000 argentines is in the second paragraph, I already read the entire article more than once, till the end, were another interviewed argentine talks about a lot of friends who returned to Argentina.

And I say “another interviewed argentine” because that is what is the original one who talks about an estimated population of 150.000, and who makes the joke about one million “ches”. I think it’s very clear he is making a joke, not a statistic. And like I previously said, and he said, the presumption of the 150.000 or the 1.000.000 "ches" is made by “the people from the streets”.

Now, I must repeat my self: “ We all know that illegal immigration exists. In Argentina, Mexico, USA and everywhere. OK. But never, repeat, NEVER I saw any country where the illegal immigration was fifteen times!!!! the legal one. Two? sure. five? mmmmm…. maybe. ten? Don’t think so. fifteen? IMPOSSIBLE.”

You talk about the 4-6 million illegal Mexicans in the US, as an example, compared whit the 1 million legal. So, the estimation is 4 to 6 times the legal immigration. Nor 15 times, nor 100 times, if we consider the 1 million “ches” joke a statistic.

But, in the US, that estimation, of 4-6 million Mexicans, is made by official agencies, not by the people from the streets. In the article, the 150.000 argentines estimation is made by John Doe. The consensus you talk about of 150,000 amongst estimations of legal+illegal is a one single person consensus. A person who doesn’t belongs to any state agency, university, research center or international organization.

You talk about what Reforma said in 2003, the FM-2, FM-3 forms and the SRE records, but you don’t link the source. Maybe if we could have a well-documented official information, so we can check it, this debate will be over. But until now all we have is a presumption made by an immigrant.

You said, “…close to half a million Argentines coming into Mexico in 2003…”, “…Statistically, the estimation was at 1/4 of the figure.” (500.000 / 4= 125.000), but, no link to check it. But we could check this one where according to a study made by “Direccion Nacional de Migraciones” (National Migration Agency) from Argentina, the total emigration for 2004 was 29.821, a 45% more than 2003, 20.586. So, a total emigration of 20.586 argentines to the entire world on 2003. Now, how is that 6 times the total argentine emigration for that year, to the entire world, gone to Mexico? You talk about 125000 argentine immigrants only in Mexico, but less than 21.000 argentines in total leave the country that year. ¿¿?? But well, as you say: “either... you fail to understand the migration phenomena around the world or you fail to understand statistics” (I presume this is not an ad hominem attack, and it goes whit the policies for etiquette, right? because if it is not, we have a contradiction here) More. Principal destinations: Los Angeles and Miami in the US, and Madrid, Barcelona and Vigo in Spain. More ahead, a mention to Italy, and Spain again. Not a single word about Mexico. Not a single word. Repeat: this is an official study from an official agency.

I can’t call the statisticians who reported 150.000 for La Nacion “incompetent” because there are no statisticians at all. Who is the statistician? Hector Arber? Precisely the guy who talk about asking the people on the streets? Who? Not a single one academic source is cited on the entire article, less a statistician. Unless you want to call the previously named John Doe a statistician.

Now, lets pretend for a second, just pretend, that this presumption/estimation is true, it’s properly documented. Forget about that Mexico inst even mentioned in official emigrations reports, or the only source is a one single article without any qualified source... What about all the official data from Spain? What about all the cited and verifiable information of argentine immigration in Spain? Instituto Nacional de Estadística de España (National Institute of Statistic): 152.975 argentines living in Spain. Residence permits data 2005: 225.700 argentines living in Spain. Not even taking the 150.000 supposition for granted you could say in Mexico lives the biggest argentine overseas community. Not even in that case. Or I also failed in this statistic? Who failed? Unless you want to call the people working for the INE, real statisticians, “incompetents”.

But, let’s go further. Let suppose also, that there is no official Spanish data at all. There are no 2 official records that dismiss the biggest argentine colony conjecture. We have 2 official records against 1 conjecture, but let’s pretend those 2 doesn’t exist. Nothing.

What about wikipedia policies? What we do whit that? I already say it, more than once. So, here is again:

"Wikipedia, should be, MUST BE, based on reliable, verifiable and probed information. NOT on conjectures. NOT on prejudices. NOT on beliefs. NOT ON PEOPLE FROM THE STREETS.

Ergo, that sentence must go. And not only from this page, from every wikipedia page that states that, because THAT IS FALSE.

Otherwise, we could start asking to our neighbors questions like “how many Bengalis do you think lives in our country?” and based on what they say or they think, then we came and write an article."

And this is not new to wikipedia.--Wikidrian 16:13, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Argentine Immigration to Mexico

For purposes of easing the reading, I have created this new talk subsection to further the debate about Argentine immigration to Mexico, statistics, and the way it is presented in the article page.

1.- The article subsection is about "demographics" not about "comparisons with Argentina". I think that weather or not Mexico has the largest Argentine colony in the world is besides the point and totally irrelevant... 2.- Since it is a demographics section, we should make an effort to include not only the significance of Argentines, but also the significance of immigrants from other nations and/or cultural groups. Where is the sentence that talk about Senior Americans/Canadians/Europeans that come to certain Mexican towns to retire? Where is the statement about the central americans who stay in Mexico after they fail to cross ilegally to the US? Where is the statement about the significant immigration of arabs and jews that the country had during the 19th and early 20th century? What about all the european immigrants from World War II (my high school teacher in Mexico was such an immigrant, and many modern day Mexican entrepreneurs are descendants from such immigrants)? What about the new trend of asian immigrants that come to work for newly established asian firms in Mexico (a growing number, particularly in the north of the country). All of these must be included. (Of course, I don't have any data, only observations from Mexico, but we should make an effort to find this data and make the article as comprehensive as possible). 3.- I think we all agree that we want whats best from the article. We don't have discussion on weather or not the sentence must go. It is clear it should. But, what would substitute it? We should strive to constantly expand the quality of this article. Hari Seldon 17:14, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Widirian: Yes, I was referring you your comments against some Mexicans as lack of Etiquette and ad hominem attacks, or ad nationem attacks, if you will. Also note that capitalizing on the internet is understood as shouting. You do not need to repeat your arguments I had read them. Like I said, all references that say they are the biggest diaspora should be eliminated. I am terribly sorry about the lack of "competence" and rigorous research from La Nacion. I can assure you that is not necessarily the case from Reforma, which has been awarded for its precision and objectivity. Unfortunately the article was published in March 2003, and you need to pay to access the online database. I will ask all users that I know if anyone has payed a subscription so that he could bring the article up so that you can see it. In the meantime you might like to provide sources for you INE claims in Spain. Not that I don't fully trust you, but you don't trust me either. My conclusion was the same: eliminate the claim that they are the largest diaspora, keep the estimation. Like I said, estimations of illegal immigrants are far from precise, and that includes the Spanish INE. Do you know how "INE" made its estimations of illegal foreingners possible? They asked all illegal foreigners to come to the INE's offices so that they could be counted in the census. Obviously, very few did, they had to use other statistical resources.

Do you happen to know what is the "official" figure of Americans in Mexico? Less than 100,000. Do you want to know what is the number reported by "American Citizens Abroad"? A little more than one million. Ten times greater. The total number of foreigners in Mexico, as reported by Mexican INEGI is 400,000+, and that includes all Central Americans, South Americans, Chinese, Korean, Europeans and Americans. The discrepancy is huge when you consider that The Economist estimated at least 200,000 Americans in San Miguel de Allende and its environs alone. The fact that the discrepancy is greater than that produced by Spain's INE might only speak of how many more illegals live in Mexico (its easier to get in there given the relaxed immigration policies for tourist and/or loose border controls) than in Spain or the US for that matter, or if you want to be absolutely critical, you can even doubt the accuracy of INEGI and SRE and blame them for their "incompetent" census. But Wikipedia is not supposed to engage in original research so as to say which discrepancy makes sense and which doesn't. While it is good that you point it out, unless you are a Statistician yourself, and you want to engage in original research, the discrepancy itself really doesn't speak of the fact the figure is wrong explicitly; like I said many other "valid" reasons for a discrepancy could be pointed out. And I am not talking by the "unrigorous" estimate made by La Nación, but by Reforma and SRE.

--Alonso 18:08, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Considering that there are no official figures to support that the Argentine community in Mexico is the largest in the world, and that statistics are controversial, I propose this wording which I think would be acceptable to everybody: "Mexico is also home for many other Latin American emigrants, many from Argentina (estimated 150,000 in 2005 according to some sources[5])."

Would all of you agree?

P.S.: Wikidrian, I am Argentine but I have to confess that if I were a Mexican I would find your sayings a little offensive (even with your carve out of "SOME" Mexicans). In my short experience in Wikipedia, I have to tell you that I found most of Mexican users well informed, well intentioned and open to discuss different points of view. Of course there are exceptions (for instance, the accuser of certain fake sockpuppetry case ...), but I guess you find such exceptions in all countries.

P.S. 2: Alonso, good to meet you out of that darned fake sockpuppetry case.

--Diegou 13:58, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Geography

I noticed this article was missing a geography section despite already having a subpage for it. I grabbed the intro from the subpage - but someone that knows Mexico should expand and rewrite. Kmusser 19:50, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Try checking the history, it was probablly deleted by a vandal, SqueakBox 01:09, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

sports

link should be added to Primera División de México in sports section. It says football is the most popular, but doesn't link the top flight!

Languages

I think the section "Languages of Mexico" is irrelevant, this article is already way too long, plus that section already has it's own article, even the United States that has like every possible language you could imagine doesn’t have such thing as a "Languages Section", so what do you think, should we eliminate it? --Supaman89

I think that the case of Mexico is different than that of the US... In the US, though there are a lot of languages, the main language is English. Though Mexico also recognizes spanish as its main language, the influence of the native languages is strong. Perhaps the recommendation should be to summarize it into one paragraph, and move relevant information to the "Languages of Mexico" article, if that relevant information is not already there. Add a link... Hari Seldon 03:36, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

The main language in Mexico is Spanish, and I don't know where you get that the influence of native languages is "strong", as I said before that information is irrelevant, it's like spending a whole section talking about the native languages of Canada, and again it already has an article on its own. We have to start getting rid of unnecessary stuff because the article is way too big. --Supaman89

I think the evidence shows that indigenous languages are important in Mexico and the section should stay. if you want to reduce the article size get rid of some of those 15 weight-heavy pics rather than weight-light text about a relevant issue, SqueakBox 17:59, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

If you ever get to meet a "Mexican" that speaks a indigenous language please call me, all those languages were pretty much extinct after the arrival of the Europeans, they are not part of the culture, they have nothing to do with Mexican society. the government only recognizes their existence that's it, they are not official languages along with Spanish, and the VERY FEW people that may know them, live in the mountains, so all that "information", doesn't belong to the main article of MEXICO. If people wanna go deeper into those languages they can go to their own article. --Supaman89

I only spent 5 weeks in Mexico, about 7 years ago, and met a number of indigenous people who didnt speak Spanish but only an indigenous language, mainly in Chiapas. To claim these people are not a part of the culture smacks of rascism; please source your claims using mainstream sources. Do you honestly believe that people living in the Mexican mountiansd (most of the country) arent Mexicans? Do you believe those who dont speak Spanish arent Mexicans? You are not helping your case with your extremist language, please think about what you are saying before editing here as such inflammatory language often results in the editor being blocked as such extremist ideas have no place in wikipedia, SqueakBox 18:22, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Why is it that every time a tourist comes to Mexico they always have to go to the most Impoverished parts of the country, Chiapas along with Oaxaca are unfortunately the poorest part of Mexico, of course it was likely that you'd meet indigenous people, and what I said before is they are "technically" not part of the Mexican culture, just as indigenous people in the states are not part of the "American culture", it sounds ugly but it's true. --Supaman89

Err, I didnt say I only went to the impoverished parts of Mexico. I also spent time in Toluca, DF, etc. To claim indigenious people are not a part of Mexican culture is offensive rascist twaddle. If you are born in Mexico you are Mexican and for you to claim otherwise is just ideological rubbish. And of course American Indians are an integral part of US culture, that much at least is obvious to a Brit like myself, American people show all sorts of influences from Indian culture non existent in the UK, SqueakBox 18:35, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

I believe the indigenous languages section should stay because:

• the Mexican Constitution clearly defines the "pluricultural" composition of the Nation as having its foundation in the indigenous peoples (second article). In other words, the indigenous peoples are not only part of the Mexican culture but its very foundation; the richness of the Mexican culture is found in its indigenous multicultural structure;
• there is no de-jure official language in Mexico; no language has ever been labeled "official", however, Spanish and the 62 indigenous language in the country have the same status and validity as "national languages" under the Law of Linguistic Rights approved in 2001; indigenous languages have the same de-jure validity in all territories in which they are spoken, and anyone has the right to request public services and documentation in their languages; whether this law is being actually enforced in all communities or not, that is another issue;
• it would be naïve to think that in practice (i.e. "technically") indigenous peoples are not part of the Mexican culture; ever since the Mexican Revolution the "Indigenous Sentiment" (loose translation of Sentimiento Indigenista) has impregnated all artistic expressions in Mexico: arts, literature, music and public TV, and public education, the manifestations of culture itself, in spite of the trend of private TV and media to ignore them;
• indigenous peoples are not only found in Chiapas and Oaxaca, but according to the CDI (former Instituto Nacional Indigenista) they constitute absolute majority in Yucatán, and a very significant proportion in Guerrero, Hidalgo, Cuernavaca, Puebla, San Luis Potosí and Veracruz. Veracruz happens to be the second most populated state in the country, while Puebla is the fourth. While the indigenous culture is very much alive in these states, it is not in the northern and northwestern states, where indigenous peoples are a very small minority; yet these states happen to be amongst the least-populated of the country;
• even in the great conurbations of the center and center-south, it is not uncommon to find someone speaking an indigenous language (notably in Puebla, Guadalajara and Mexico City); while many of the "national languages" are indeed in peril of extinction, 16 of them have more than 100,000 speakers. Nahuatl itself is spoken by 1.5 million while Yucatec maya is spoken by 800.000. These two figures, even though they represent a small percentage of the total population (1.5% and 0.8%) are in fact sizable populations if compared to some European languages.
• not only have I met, in person, dozens of Native Mexicans (or Indigenous peoples) that speak their Native languages both Mexico and in the US, I have found several extremely active users in the Spanish Wikipedia whose first language is an indigenous language. Even though their languages do not receive the appropriate resources from the government and they suffer discrimination from Spanish speakers, they are very much alive and not only "confined to the mountains".

--Alonso 05:53, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

The fact that the state is impoverished doesn't mean it isn't part of Mexico. Indeed, indigenous languages are so important to national culture, that in some villages, and even cities, they only speak those indigenous languages. Because of this, the Mexican government issues regularly free school books in native languages. Many official public functions take place in the indigenous language. Indeed, the native languages of Mexico are of official use, and of extreme influence in the daily lives of an important segment of the nation's population. This is what makes it different from, lets say, the USA's languages, and that is the reason why it should be menctioned in this article. Hari Seldon 18:26, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Mexico as well as the United States do not have an "Official Language" nevertheless in both countries there is a main language spoken by the majority of the people, in the case of Mexico it'd be Spanish which is spoken by almost 95% of the population [[4]], the only reason the government translated some books to those native languages was so they won't say they're been discriminated, there's no reason to include a whole section just to talk about languages that are spoken pretty much just in villages when those people are not even consider to be part of Mexican society by the rest of Mexicans, but that's irrelevant, the point is that that section doesn't belong to the "GENERAL" information about this country, if people want to do a special research about all those wonderful cultures, they can go and check the specialized articles. --Supaman89

I disagree, both with your statement that the majority of Mexicans only considers those born in Mexico and who (not being babies) speak Spanish to be Mexican, and I bet you cant source your outlandish claim otherwise. We get the odd malcontent here in Honduras saying blacks arent Honduran and its the same kind of rascist rubbish you are spouting. Do you think Mexican villages arent Mexican? I dont think your government would agree with that nor the majority of Mexicans or they would give Marcos what he wants. I support the inclusion of these languages as an important part of Mexican culture, same way that Welsh gets mentioned in the UK article, SqueakBox 20:51, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Forget what I said about they not being part of the Mexican society and focus on the facts that I wrote, this article should only show really GENERAL information about the country, if they wanna go deeper into all those languages they can go to their own articles, it's like creating a whole section about the Mexicans that smoke and only 6% of the population are smokers, it's the same case, it is secondary information. --Supaman89

And I disagree, i think the languages should remain. What do others think? SqueakBox 21:13, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

See now you're not even saying a good reason for them to stay, it's just because you want them to be there, again I'm open to any argument as long as it is based on facts, so if you want to keep talking about why you think the section should stay, and it makes more sense than the reason that I'm telling you it should, well then we can keep debating, thank you for your interest on this matter. --Supaman89

Dont know what you make of this but do feel free to revert me [5]. Still mentioning the indigenous tribes but not the influence of English or other European languages that I would indeed argue can stay withj Langauages of Mexico. Because we have that article we should have the section here, SqueakBox 21:49, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Pardon me? What do you mean?. --Supaman89

What do I mean about what? lol. I think the section on languages should stay, I have greatly shortened it and welcome feedback on my edit, SqueakBox 22:20, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

It is pretty clear to me that you want the section to stay, but just because you want it to be there, is not reason enough for it to stay, I'm not going to repeat the reasons why I think the section should go, cuz I already said them, and at the end you couldn't say anything else but "I disagree", so common let's stop playing "I like it or not", and accept that I've got better arguments to eliminate the section. --Supaman89

It now doesnt hog spacve, unlike before, it introduces the longer article Languages of Mexico which needs linking in this article and it is of interest to people who may not even know Spanish is the dominant language in Mexico. I dont think oyu have put across any arguments as to why to eliminate this NPOV, sourced paragraph other than that you dont consider indigenous people to be Mexican so I would strongly oppose the elimination of this paragraph. The fact that the UK article mentions Welsh 13 times also indicates that as a whole country articles include minority languages in those countries. Finally the consensus of the editors here is to keep the section, you havent persuaded a single editor so far nor got a single one to support your viewpoint, SqueakBox 23:03, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Ok I never said I don't consider indigenous people to be Mexican, I said that to the rest of Mexicans they are not part of the Mexican Society, so don't try to put me like the bad guy here. Now the only reason why I made up all this argument, was because the size of the article was way too long and we had to start eliminating unnecessary or in this case secondary stuff, so by you reediting the section does not solve the problem, the section has to be eliminated, and if you see any other thing that is just occupying space and is not really that important to the general information about the country, please tell us.

And the case of the U.K. is different because it is a Union of 4 different countries: England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, therefore it is necessary to show information about each one of those countries, plus 30% of the United Kingdom's population are not native English speakers, so how do you compare 30% vs. only 6.7%, not to mention that each year that number is getting smaller, probably in a couple of years they'll be almost inexistent. --Supaman89

There are ways to streamline, summarize and reduce number of lines in an article without compromising its quality. I am all in favor of a reorganization, but not about deleting facts, such as the importance of native languages. Hari Seldon 17:17, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

It's not like we're deleting them from wikipedia, we're just removing them from this specific article, because as I said before, they are secondary information, I don't know if you red each and every single one of my comments above, but I tell you the same thing I told SqueakBox, I know you want the section to stay, but that's not reason enough, you need to show me why is it so important to keep them, rather than why think they shouldn’t, I already say why they should go, and no one has been able to give a better argument. --Supaman89

No, they are not secondary information. We have already told you that they have the same status as Spanish "national languages". I don't know if you actually read my comments above, but I answered each and every one of your arguments. You have provided a solid reason for why you think they should go except by your personal taste and opinion. --Alonso 20:13, 19 December 2006 (UTC) _____________________________________________________________________________________
Are you freaking joking me, you're the one who didn't read all my comments, and im not going to repeat them again, your only logical argument is that the Government recognizes their existence, and since Mexico doesn't have a "Official Language" that's your excuse for them to stay, I'm just gonna re-paste all the things I've said so you can read them, and You'll se there's nothing to argue about, cuz my comments make more sense. --Supaman89 [Please note that the original argument said "Mexico doesn't have a "National Language". Supraman conviniently changed his own words after my rebuttal. That is unethical]. --Alonso 22:15, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Wrong, you are the one not reading. Mexico has 63 national languages. That is my excuse for having them stay. All 63 have the same "legal" status and recognition, and the constitution commands states to promote their development. --Alonso 21:12, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Exactly of course the government recognizes their existence, I never said the opposite, cuz, they do exist, but almost 95% of the population speaks spanish, and the number of native speaker is decreasing every year[[6]]. --Supaman89

You are still not reading. The government does not only recognize their existence. Read the points below. --Alonso 22:15, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm not reading what?, that there's people who speak them, as well as there's people who speak Spanish, and since Mexico doesn't have an "Offcial Language" they all have the same "status", obviously, so? --Supaman89

1. Mexico as well as the United States do not have an "Official Language" nevertheless in both countries there is a main language spoken by the majority of the people, in the case of Mexico it'd be Spanish which is spoken by almost 95% of the population [[7]], the only reason the government translated some books to those native languages was so they won't say they're been discriminated, there's no reason to include a whole section just to talk about languages that are spoken pretty much just in villages when those people are not even consider to be part of Mexican society by the rest of Mexicans, but that's irrelevant, the point is that that section doesn't belong to the "GENERAL" information about this country, if people want to do a special research about all those wonderful cultures, they can go and check the specialized articles. --Supaman89

Wrong, you are confusing main language with "national language". But I guess you didn't read my comments thoroughly. In the US no language has any recognition at all. That is not the case in Mexico. National languages are the "official recognition" of all 63 languages (Spanish included). Read the 2001 Law of Linguistic Rights (link provided in the Languages of Mexico article). All of them have the same validity not only in their recognition but people have the right to education and to request all public and official documentation in their languages [in other countries that is called "official"]. All 63 languages have the same "status". The "title" official is not used but that doesn't mean the "national" title is less official. It is a legal declaration. Moreover it is a constitutional mandate (second article) for the State (Nation) and the states (constituencies) to promote the development of these languages. --Alonso 21:00, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Again, the government recognizes their existence, I never said the opposite, cuz, they do exist, but almost 95% of the population speaks spanish, and the number of native speaker is decreasing every year[[8]]. --Supaman89

Not reading again. The government does more than to recognize their existence. Read above. It is a constitutional mandate to promote their use. Official documents are issued in those languages. Your arguments are redudant. Percentage descreases but nominal number increases. --Alonso 22:15, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Let's be real, in a couple of years almost no one will speak any of those languages, not because I say so, but because the statistics show it, plus everyday more and more people learn Spanish so they can go to the nearest city and find a job. --Supaman89

That is your opinion. Not a fact. You have shown no facts.

2. Forget what I said about they not being part of the Mexican society and focus on the facts that I wrote, this article should only show really GENERAL information about the country, if they wanna go deeper into all those languages they can go to their own articles, it's like creating a whole section about the Mexicans that smoke and only 6% of the population are smokers, it's the same case, it is secondary information. --Supaman89

Irish, for example is spoken by less than 5% of the population in Ireland. But it has been recognized as the the national or proper language in Ireland. The importance of Irish (or the Mexican languages) it not related to the number of Speakers but to their status (whether it is given through cultural or historical reasons). There are many such examples. --Alonso 21:00, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Could you help me, cuz I think I'm blind but I don't see a "Language Section" in the Irish article,. --Supaman89

Yes let me help you. You probably visited Ireland (the island) and not Republic of Ireland. --Alonso 22:15, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

In Ireland they teach Irish at schools, therefore probably a large percentage of the population is able to speak it or atleast undestand some of it, in Mexico, they you don't go to school and ask, did you pass your exam of nahuatl?, and again the languages are disappearing as days go by. --Supaman89

3. It is pretty clear to me that you want the section to stay, but just because you want it to be there, is not reason enough for it to stay, I'm not going to repeat the reasons why I think the section should go, cuz I already said them, and at the end you couldn't say anything else but "I disagree", so common let's stop playing "I like it or not", and accept that I've got better arguments to eliminate the section. --Supaman89

No. I have already exposed my solid reasons above. You are minimizing the importance of the second article of the constitution, the Law of Linguistic rights and the effect indigenous languages and culture have had on Mexican culture (which I exposed above too). Other than your personal biased opinion (which now you ask us to ignore) you have not provided a solid reason or "fact" to delete the information as "secondary". Saying that "only" 6% speak it is not a "fact" (in terms of linguistics is 6 million an insignificant figure according to which authority? Or is it just your personal appreciation?). Their legal status is a "fact". --Alonso 21:00, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

WE ALL KNOW that is a FACT that 6% of the population speaks an amerindian language, and once again, that information is not important enough to appear in the main article of Mexico, if we had all the space we wanted to, I wouldn't mind, but we don't, and we have to start erasing secundary stuff. --Supaman89

Don't confuse facts with opinions. 6% is a fact. Saying that 6% is insignificant in spite of their legal and constitutional recognition is an opinion. --Alonso 22:15, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

What are you talking about?, if only 6% speaks one of those languages, we can not afford to have the section in this article, because it's simply logical, the case of Ireland is different as I explained above.

4. Ok I never said I don't consider indigenous people to be Mexican, I said that to the rest of Mexicans they are not part of the Mexican Society, so don't try to put me like the bad guy here. Now the only reason why I made up all this argument, was because the size of the article was way too long and we had to start eliminating unnecessary or in this case secondary stuff, so by you reediting the section does not solve the problem, the section has to be eliminated, and if you see any other thing that is just occupying space and is not really that important to the general information about the country, please tell us. --Supaman89

In saying that indigenous peoples are not part of the Mexican Society you are showing to be "the bad guy" (sic) using your words. We don't need to add anything to your comments, they speak for themselves. Moreover they show the little regard you have for indigenous peoples and their place in Mexican society and culture. They are not confined to the "mountains" as you have preposterously claimed, unless you live in a Northern state. I agree, the size of the article is too long. I disagree, eliminating the indigenous languages section is not the answer. I rather eliminate the European languages section (not that I want to, I would like both to stay), but the status of the indigenous languages speaks of their merit. --Alonso 21:00, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

We are not talking about "Indigenous peoples" we are talking about "Languages", again we're not gonna spend a whole section just to mention some languages that are only spoken by such a small percentage of the population. --Supaman89

I am only answering your argument. You said indigenous peoples are not part of the Mexican Society and confined to the mountains. I proved you wrong. Want to talk about languages then limit yourself to the legal documents available. --Alonso 22:15, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

And the case of the U.K. is different because it is a Union of 4 different countries: England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, therefore it is necessary to show information about each one of those countries, plus 30% of the United Kingdom's population are not native English speakers, so how do you compare 30% vs. only 6.7%, not to mention that each year that number is getting smaller, probably in a couple of years they'll be almost inexistent. --Supaman89

Mexico is a federation of states. In many of the states (I will not repeat myself) indigenous peoples are plurality, relative majority or significant minority (read the fourth point of my previous contribution). --Alonso 21:12, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

That's gotta be the most ridiculous answer I've ever seen, it'd be better if you had said, "well... I don't know, you got that one right" --Supaman89

I'm sorry this didn't satisfy you. It seems you do not know that the UK, in spite of being a Union is a unitary nation in process of devolution. Mexico is a federated nation. They cannot be compared. Secondly,the "original" English people were the Welsh, so were the indigenous peoples in Mexicio. The UK has devolved power to the Welsh [by the way, power has not been devolved to the English, there is no English parliament]. In Mexico, since the second article of the constitution clearly states that the pluricultural composition of the Mexican nation has its foundation in the indigenous peoples and mandates constituent states to promote their languages, I guess it is crystal clear that they are extremely important. --Alonso 22:15, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

You just said it, they can not be compared, the UK were 4 countries that came together into become a nation, in the case of Mexico it is always been a unified nation, since it was "La nueva Espana" untill now that is known as Mexico, and ONCE AGAIN there's way too much difference between 30% and only 6%, 30% is too much people, not to be mention. --Supaman89

P.S. Please tone down your language. Treat other users with respect. We are discussing, not fighting. And do not change your own words after the debate. That is unethical. --Alonso 22:15, 19 December 2006 (UTC) P.S.S I'm speaking of Irish speakers as their mother tongue, not of Irish who can understand Irish. --Alonso 22:29, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Sorry but, when did I change my words?? and I haven't seen any bad word comming from me yet. --Supaman89

If we are worried about space we should delete some of the pics before deleting text. 30% of the UK population not native English speakers? LOL. What it said in the other article is 70% of the UK population only speak English, SqueakBox 23:08, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Yeah if you want we can eliminate some pictures, but we also have to eliminate this unnecesary section, and about the UK thing, it uses the word "monolingually" that as you probably know means "Only one language" but the way that sentance is written it refers to the people who didn't have to learn english as a second language. --Supaman89

Supraman your one and only purported "fact" is that only 6% of the population speaks an Amerindian language. You have shown no other fact but mere opinions. You extrapolate a figure (6%) to a personal opinion ("they are not important") and claim it as a fact. My fact is that the constitution mandates the development of the languages and the Law of Linguistic Rights gives them the same validity as Spanish for all official purposes even if it only labels them as "national languages". I think that a constitutional mandate and a National law far surpasses your personal opinion about whether 6% is a significant figure or not. You say they are not important, yet the constitution says otherwise. You say "let's be real in 10 years nobody will speak them". That is an opinion, not a fact, especially when nominally the number of speakers continues to increase, even if the percentage is reducing. I hope you understand the difference between nominal increase and percentage increase.

Secondly, even if example about Ireland didn't satisfy you, maybe we can use Spain as an example, where only 2% speak basque, and basque is official in the territories in which it is spoken (same as Mexican national languages), yet it deserves a space in their article. But who cares what I, you or anyone says. Even if you don't think they are important, the constitution, the supreme law of the nation says they are, even if they are a "mere" 6% or 6 million speakers of which 3 millions do not speak Spanish. I believe the Congress of the Union's opinion far surpasses your personal opinion and dislike of the indigenous languages and culture.

Then you said that Mexico has been a unified nation. You still do not understand the concept of unitary state and federated state. Mexico has never been a unitary state, except when it was an Empire. Not even during the colonial times it was a unitary state. Do not confuse "united" with "unitary" state. Please review your concepts.

Finally, I guess you are not reading all my arguments. I already told you what you changed, unethically at the beginning of this section. The fact that you missed it shows that you are not reading all the arguments exposed (or you are choosing not to accept the fact that you changed your own words). If you choose not to read any of the above, then at least read this: They are important because the constitution says so, whether you happen to like the law or not. They have the same validity in Spanish for all official matters. States must promote their development by law. They are the "national languages".

--Alonso 00:35, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Ok, you know what this is way too much, I feel like I'm dealing with someone with handicap, now you're even accusing me of not liking the law and misunderstanding the difference between "united" and "unitary", I'm just going to resume all the thing we've said into this simple points:

I resent your comment about me being handicapped. Please avoid ad hominem attacks. I am not "accusing", you simply couldn't tell the difference. --Alonso 03:49, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

• We have a limited space for each article, that's why I proposed to erase the "Language" section, to save some space.

I disagree with your proposal. --Alonso 03:49, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

• Then you said, like me or not, Spanish and any of those languages have the same status because Mexico doesn't have an "Official Language" that's why the section should stay.

• Then I said, yeah of course they have the same status, but since they're spoken by such a small percentage of the population and since most of the Mexican society doesn't really identify themselves with indigenous languages, which is true, I told you that it'd be logical to classify them as "secondary information" which is still very important if we had all the space we wanted to, I wouldn't mind to keep them, but since we don't we would have to erase the section and that its information would still be saved because they already have their own article.

Then I said, their importance is not due to the fact that only 6 million people speak them but to their constitutional and legal status. Then I asked you see the difference between a fact (6% speak an Amerindian language) and an opinion (this figure is insignificant), you couldn't. --Alonso 03:51, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

• Then someone said, if we need more space why don't we delete some pictures.

• And I agreed, cuz I thought it'd help to solve the problem, but we also still need to erase the section, which by the way has a picture.

• Then you try to put cases like Ireland, and I told you that the difference was that they teach Irish at schools, and Irish was really part of their culture along with English, which is not the case of Mexico and those indigenous languages, then you put Spain and all the difference languages that are spoken in the different regions, now I tell you, 35% of Spaniards speak Spanish along with the official language of the region, and I even remember a case when one of those regions wanted to separate from Spain, so is obvious they have to be mentioned in the Spanish article, and something similar happened with Britain’s article again was a big percentage 30% if I remember. That's why the case of Mexico is different.

My point was it doesn't matter the percentage of speakers (be it 2% for Basque or 1.5% for Nahuatl or 0.05% for Aranese), the point is they have full recognition under the law. Recognition includes the fact that all legal documents and public services can be requested in these languages. Moreover, 6 million people is not an insignificant number. AND, the number of speakers is not decreasing but increasing even if the percentage is decreasing (I assume you understand the difference). --Alonso 03:49, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

• Then you said that Mexico is never been unified(Unificado) and I told you, after the Spaniards arrive and defeated the Aztecs and some other tribes, they explore the territory from Nicaragua to big part of the US, and called it "La Nueva España", then each region wanted independence and that's when the a country called Mexico was born and with him the Mexicans, with the time we've lost some territories but there never was a certain number of countries or states that merge into creating this wonderful country called Mexico. So that's just another reason why the case of Mexico and the UK are so different.

No, I never said that Mexico has never been unified. You must be reading wrong, or just skimming. I said it has never been a unitary state (except when it was an Empire). Please review what I said before bringing spurious accusations. I am getting tired of them. --Alonso 03:49, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

• Then you accused me of not reading/understanding your messages and changing my own words, to be honest I don't know what you mean by that, the only word that I remember changing, I'd say fixing is that I changed "National" by "Official", which was what I had in mind but after I saw the mistake I in fact fixed it.

It wasn't a mistake. My response had to do with the fact that you mentioned "national". It was a convenient response to change it after a rebuttal than to accept a counter-argument. That is unethical. --Alonso 03:51, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

And that's pretty much it, my arguments make more sense, and as you said "whether you happen to like it or not"

To you, they make more sense.--Alonso 03:49, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

--Supaman89

Let me try to summarize the discussion we have had:

• Your arguments are: 6% of Amerindian population is insignificant. Amerindians are not part of Mexican Society. The government only "recognizes" the existence of the languages. They should be eliminated from the article.
• My argument is: percentage is irrelevant when determining their importance; it is their constitutional protection, and their legal validity for all official purposes, I will repeat that, for all official purposes, I will repeat that, for all official purposes, which grants them their due importance. The second article of the constitutions defines the nation as a pluricultural country in which Amerindians are the foundation, ergo, they are an integral part of Mexican Society. Therefore, they should not be eliminated from the article.

If, you still fail to understand the logic of my argument, then let's make a voting proposal, so that other users can decide whether to eliminate them or not. Voting is a valid procedure if consensus fails. Ohh, and please, before making another spurious accusation, read my comments thoroughly. I don't appreciate when people put words in my mouth. And please avoid ad hominem attacks. --Alonso 03:49, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

I think that one more factor should be added to J Alonso's argument. It is not only the fact that these languages are used for all official purposes, it is also because some of these languages were lingua franca in some of the most powerful empires of pre-hispanic times and have shaped the spanish language today (The "Italy" article specifies that italian is a direct descendant from Latin, why not add that some amerindian languages, like nahuatl or mayan have added words to the spanish language?).

Some of these languages, apart from being recognized and used for all official purposes by the Mexican government, have had a great impact in Mexico's society and beyond. I think that this is worth noting.

However, I am in favor of using up as less space as possible, but never of sacrificing quality.

Hari Seldon 06:19, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Moreover, if Supaman's only reason for eliminating them is that they are insignificant and we need to save space, then I propose that all 4 paragraphs related to European languages (except for English) be eliminated instead of the indigenous languages. Following Supaman's argument neither Venet nor Plautdietsch amount to more than 10,000 speakers (0.01% of the population) they are confined to the mountains and the will soon disappear. If indigenous peoples are not part of the Mexican society (as Surpaman argues, even though I disagree) then neither Venets nor Menonite descendants are. Moreover, their languages have no constitutional protection and no legal validity whatsoever. French, as a mother tongue is used by mere thousands, and so is German. And, if we eliminate those paragraphs we eliminate 3,607 characters, whereas if we eliminate the indigenous languages paragraph we are only saving 927 characters. That is, we are saving 300% more by eliminating the European languages (except English) than by eliminating the national languages of Mexico. That, of course, if his only concern is saving space. --Alonso 15:36, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

I believe it is possible to move all of this into a separate article, and leave here only two paragraphst that recognize spanish, english, and the amerindian languages and, as you say, eliminate the european languages other than english. Hari Seldon 15:45, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

• Exactly it already has a separate article; we could just make a little paragraph in the "Pre-Columbian Civilizations" area, saying that some of their decedents keep speaking their native language.

• Now Alonso, you're the one who's giving me the same answer, I told you the difference between Ireland, the UK and Spain, and why those articles should include a Language section, and how the case of Mexico is different, not because I want it to be like that, but I already explain the reasons.

• I also said "Mexican society doesn't really identify themselves with indigenous languages", if you ask most Mexicans, Do you wanna learn nahuatl?, they would probably laugh at you, and that's just the way it is.

• Then why does it even matter if Mexico has been a "Unitary"(Unitario) State or not? we're talking about the roll that those languages play in today's society, which as I already say it's almost none, the percentage is decreasing even if the number of speakers increases, which is obvious because that people have kids, but then those kids will probably learn Spanish so they can move to the nearest city, in a couple of years the percentage will be like 0.001%, but you will keep arguing that you want them to stay.

• And now you ask to make a poll, no sir, matters like this have to be solved with facts not by what the people want or think. --Supaman89

Supaman, please try your best to reach a consensus. We have tried our best. I will try, for the last time to explain the difference between fact and opinion: FACT: 6% (6 million!) speak an Amerindian language OPINION: This figure is insignificant, no Mexican cares about it, in a couple of years this figure will be 0.001% (no valid linguistic source cited), people will laugh at you if you want to learn Nahuatl (in spite of the fact that UNAM, BUAP, and even a private university UDLAP offer Nahuatl courses as an option for a second language).

I have already shown you facts, but you refuse to accept them: FACT: Amerindian languages are constitutionally protected and legally valid for all official purposes. The number of speakers is increasing even if the percentage is decreasing. OPINION: They are constitutionally and legally relevant for all purposes, they should be mentioned in the article.

Thirdly and lastly, if you have "nothing against Amerindians and their languages" and your only concern is "space". Then why don't you accept our proposal of eliminating 4 irrelevant paragraphs about European languages that are not "part of Mexican society" and are not "national languages"?

Finally, voting (not a mere poll of opinions) is valid here in Wikipedia if consensus is not reached. Please show Hari, SqueakBox and me your good will and disposition to dialogue and not to impose.

--Alonso 16:25, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

• I remember the "Languages Section" being way smaller and someone added more and more information, so now if we make the section smaller you can say, "Ok, we're done, we saved space".

• You keep saying the same arguments "6% is a fact, your opinion isn't" apparently you don't even read my points, I never said 6% wasn't a fact, I said why they don't belong to he main article of Mexico; the reason for this article to exist, is so the people can read it and learn a bit about how Mexico is like, and "indigenous languages" does not describe it, believe me I live here.

• Then I said, we could make a paragraph in the "Pre-Columbian Civilizations" area and say that a really small percentage of the population speaks an Amerindian language, but it doesn't satisfies you, does it?, what difference does it make to add paragraph in that section remarking that those ancestral languages are still being spoken by some of their decedents, but no you want it to be in an area called languages which by the way has an image (space).

• According to you, I'm not dialoguing, I'm imposing you what to do, lol, if I was doing that, I wouldn't have spent all this time discussing this with you. --Supaman89

Supraman, I have also lived in Mexico, and believe me, indigenous language play a very important role to the lives of millions of people. What is insulting is that your main arguments seems to rest on the attitude that the lives of millions of people are irrelevant, and that the action of communicating with them in their own language is "laughable", simply because they are fewer million than the dozens of millions that don't speak amerindian.

To put your argument into perspective, imagine that we were writing the article on Planet Earth. You're attitude would be comparable to trying to erase the importance of Eastern European languages because they are not as widely spoken or learned as English or Chinese. Those that mean that eastern european languages like Czech, German, or Russian are any less important to the world? That they have no influence on the world's politics, research, law, or trade? At the very least, they should be briefly menctioned, though perhaps not in great detail, but menctioned nevertheless.

Amerindian languages are at the heart of Mexico. They have influenced its history, they have influenced modern day Mexican Spanish, and are widely used today in many states for all official purposes, including trials, contracts, and education.

Indeed, if Mexico can hold legal trials and challenges in nahuatl or maya, and the outcome be recognized by law, isn't that an important fact to remember about Mexico? That you have rights even if you don't speak spanish?

However, I agree that space can be saved. I think we can greatly summarize most of the information. I am against merely eliminating because that subtracts quality to the article. We should expand the quality by reducing space and delivering crucial information, in this case, the legal status, and importance to millions of mexicans of the amerindian languages.

Finally, I agree with J Alonso that the summary (at most two paragraphs, no pictures) should include a menction of spanish as the main language, a menction of the importance of amerindian languages, its legal status as a recognized and widely used language for official purposes, and a menction of the 4 most spoken amerindian languages, and finally, the importance of english. The rest, all the details, and all about the euro languages can be moved to the article Languages of Mexico.

Hari Seldon 17:28, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

OK I'm up for that, I'm gonna do it right now, after that you can check it, to see what you think ok, I'm just gonna add one or two paragraphs in the "Pre-Columbian Civilization" Section.

Now please don't say anything untill i'm done with that ok. --Supaman89

Ok, I'm done, I already did the corrections, all the information is in the "Pre-Columbian Civilization". --Supaman89

I agree with the summary you made, I disagree with the location. It is completely out of place. The information about languages does not belong to the history section but to the demographic section. All articles should have a language subsection in the demographics section. It so happens that Amerindian languages and Spanish are all "national languages" today. Why hide the information in the history section, as if it was something about the past? Also, please write your proposals here', on the Talk page before inserting them, otherwise we are going to have an editions war'. I propose that you revert your changes until we can reach a satisfactory proposal here. --Alonso 18:00, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Oh, common nothing pleases you, you're the only one who keeps arguing, right guys?, we're already done here; and yeah it is something of the past, because it's the legacy that those civilization left to their decedents. --Supaman89

Supaman, do you know what consensus is? I am tired of your ad hominem attacks and lack of etiquette. Your opinion is that they are something of the past, that is not is not a fact. Why do you want to hide the information? We have only reached a consensus when it comes to reducing information. We have not reached a consensus as to the location. Please revert your changes. --Alonso 18:25, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Sorry I agree with Alsonso on this one; we dont want to give the impression that the indigenous languages are historical and of course they should be in the demographics section. If no one moves it back I will soon enough, SqueakBox 18:29, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

I have reverted the changes. Suparman, there is something that would please me: that yo do not weasel your will into the article ignoring consensus and other wikipedia policy. I agree with Alonso and Squeakbox. This should be a sub-section in the Demographics section. Additionally, I proposed that the european languages menctions be moved to the Languages of Mexico article. What happened to them? You completely ignored my proposal and didn't even discuss it! Please be more collaborative. Perhaps it may be useful to create a proposal in your sandbox, and we can continue discussing it. Hari Seldon 18:39, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

it's done, now is in the demographics section --Supaman89

Why do you keep reverting the changes, I just chaged it as you guys said --Supaman89

Please dont assume we all think the same. I couldnt find any language section in your edit and dont believe it is for the best for the article, SqueakBox 18:43, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

We agreed to move it to the Demographics section, so I did it, then Hari Seldon reverted it, so now I don't know what do you want!!???

Proposals

To make it easier to continue ths discussion, I have added this new subsection.

Here we can add our proposals for consensus in the language sub section of the demographics section.

Here is supaman's proposal:

Main article: Languages of Mexico

The Mexican Constitution does not mention the existence of a de-jure official language, however Spanish is spoken by 97% of the population and used for all official purposes, making it a de-facto official language. Nonetheless, the Law of Linguistic Rights, approved in 2001, grants all 62 indigenous languages spoken in Mexico the same validity as Spanish in all territories in which they are spoken, and all indigenous peoples are entitled to request documents and some public services in their languages.

Aproximately 6% of the population speaks an indigenous language, and 3% are not bilingual with Spanish. Of these, Nahuatl and Maya are each spoken by 1.5 million; while others, such as Lacandon, are spoken by fewer than one hundred people. The Mexican government has promoted and established bilingual education programs in indigenous rural communities. A few tribes, such as the Kickapoo and the Cherokee, came to the state of Coahuila in the nineteenth century to escape U.S. army raids and are said to maintain their language and culture to a certain extent.

I think it would be great if we continue our discussions here, and if we can add to the proposals and advance towards a consensus. Hari Seldon 18:49, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

We all agreed that the summary that I did was alright, the only problem was that I placed it in the "Pre-Columbian Civilizations" Section, and they didn't like it, they told me to put it un the "Demographics" Section, so I did, and then you reverted it. why?? --Supaman89

I think we should have a separate section in demograohics called Langauges, SqueakBox 19:13, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

General Comments

In the economy section, what if instead of having two pictures of Mexico City, we have one of Mexico City and one of another important economic city, like Monterrey, which is ranked by Fortune Magazzine as the top business hub in Latin America? I could provide the picture...

Another comment... In the Education section, there is one huge paragrapgh dedicated to UNAM, and a small paragrapgh with few sentences dedicated to other institutions... The ITESM is about as important as the UNAM, and it is better ranked in areas like business and Engineering, and it is one of the most important (if not the most important) private institution in Mexico. Additionally, other important schools, like ITAM, IPN, UANL, ITESO, UAG among others are barely menctioned. Some of the schools where current Secretaries of State went are not even in the article!

Additionally, the fact that UNAM gets most of the ENTIRE federal budget for education (including monies for elementary education) is not menctioned, and I think it is unfair that it isn't if there is going to be a neutral point of view. Sure, UNAM is great, but at what cost to the rest of Mexican society who cannot go to UNAM and have to go to some underfunded state university? Why is there no menction of it in the article?

I think that the best course of action is to streamline the section, reduce it to about a few sentences, menctioning the generalities of how the education system, private and public works, and how it is outlined by the SEP, and menction very discreetly UNAM and ITESM, as they are the most recognizable institutions outside of Mexico. The rest should go to a separate article. Hari Seldon 03:45, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Why not mention IPADE first as it is better ranked than ITESM? What about Colmex, Cinvestav? Where is the ranking for engineering that says that ITESM is better than UNAM? UNAM, the IPN and perhaps Colmex, are the main mexican institutions with citations by the essential science indicators by Thompson Scientific. 6 of the 8 Howard Hughes International Scholars from Mexico work in the UNAM, the other two work for the IPN. Where does it compare to ITESM?

The UNAM has a budget of its own and does not depend on the federal budget for education. I am sure that is some kind of rumor that goes around in Monterrey, but it's not the truth.(http://www.ordenjuridico.gob.mx/Federal/PL/CU/Leyes/20122004(1).pdf. Please source your claims before proposing edits to an article. Andy Rosenthal 05:03, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately, Andy, your link is broken. We cannot confirm the source of your claim. Nonetheless, it seems an oxymoron to say that a public university has a private fund. Public funding is the very definition of a public university, otherwise where do they get the money from? Moreover, during the last two weeks there has been an intense debate at the Congress of the Union concerning Calderon's 2007 budget proposal; Calderón [the Mexican incumbent president] proposed to reduce UNAM's [public, federal] budget by some 900 million pesos (90 million dollars) [9]. This decision caused an uproar at the UNAM (and in many newspaper editorials), and UNAM's president himself appealed the decision at the Congress. I wonder, why would he had to go to ask the Congress not to approve Calderon's reduction proposal if UNAM does not depend on it. Whether UNAM's huge budget causes other public universities to be underfunded, I do not know. I wouldn't doubt it, though it would be useful to provide some specific figures from the recently approved 2007 budget (if they are available). --Alonso 06:10, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Oh, I finally accessed Andy's link (the parenthesis had been put inside the link). The link is a pdf paper showing former president Fox's federal budget proposal for 2005, which assigns funds to all "public universities" (p. 17). I guess it is quite obvious to say that UNAM was included. --Alonso 06:19, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps my wording was inadequate; What I meant to say is that the budget that is destined for basic education is set apart than that destined for funding public universities, and that is why I provided the link. According to the budget plan for the federation; basic education, higher education and public autonomous universities are completely separate entities (although all of them are listed under the ministry of education), therefore it is not only false and inaccurate to say that the UNAM uses almost all of the budget that the federal government allocates for education but it is also, -I am afraid to say- a blatant lie. In the link provided for FY 2005, the budget for the ministry of education is noted to be $12,127,978,805.7, of which UNAM gets $826,182,022.2 close to 6%. The total federal subsidy to UNAM on FY 2005 was 16,000 million pesos (http://www.planeacion.unam.mx/agenda/2005/pdf/presupuesto.pdf), while the budget for the ministry of education was 320,854 million pesos (http://www.sep.gob.mx/wb2/sep/sep_Bol3780904). This produces the same figure , about 6%. Saying that the UNAM sucks all of the resources that the federal government allocates for public education reminds me of the stale feud between the states and the Federal District, for an inadequate distribution of the budget. This is the reason why I gentlemanly asked Hari to source his claims. He and I go a long way back, and it is not the first time I see him stating rumors as facts.

It is worth saying, though, that “Fundacion UNAM” and other charitable organizations, the patents generated by the university, the enrollment fees charged to the students and several others are sources of funding for UNAM provide close to 10% of its entire budget.

Beyond an egotistic one I fail to see any other reason to include the phrase that the ITESM is the 7th best business school in the ranking provided, even more so when IPADE (located in Mexico City) is ranked 2nd. I have not looked for sources but also, stating that ITESM surpasses UNAM in engineering I find hard to believe, simply because the amount of research done by ITESM is negligible. Of course no one can aruge the truth, and these are only assumptions.

The UNAM is the best ranked spanish speaking university in the world, regardless of what anyone says, the importance it has for Mexico and the mexicans is not even comparable to any other academic institution in the country. Therefore saying that ITESM is as important is not true.

I am sure Alonso, that you can provide more information on this, but I believe that it is tragic, that a public education system like the one that Mexico had 50 years ago, was silently privatized. Sadly most of the private education institutions in Mexico are the product of the negligence of the federal government to the public education system, where the faculty earns meager salaries. A similar situation to what occured to social security.

I am unaware of the figures for FY 2006, but if the budget reduction planned for UNAM was in the order of 900 million pesos, that would mean a ~6% reduction which is awfully high. The fact that the cancellation of the reduction was lobbied by de la Fuente and others, makes a statement of the political leverage and the importance that the University has; Furthermore the fact that no one from Calderon's political cabinet is a UNAM graduate actually was news (http://www.eluniversal.com.mx/notas/390618.html).

I hope the preceeding paragraphs explain my opinion and the facts presented in a more accurate manner. I have also edited the link that I provided before and hopefully would work smoothly now. Andy Rosenthal 08:34, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

I guess we can argue about the UNAM's budget reduction some place else. As a liberal, I happen to agree with Calderon, but that's beside the point.

I don't think this article should menction ALL universities. In essence, it should include:

• A description of how basic education works. Indeed, basic education is the cornerstone of any education. Why dedicate most space to Universities, that are not as crucial?
• A menction of Article third of the constitution.
• A basic summary of the status of Mexican students compared to students from other nations (i.e., rankings in basic knowledge of math, science, and grammar)...
• Finally, a small, at most three line paragraph, describing the fact that Mexico has both public and private universitites, and perhaps menction the two most important of each. The most important public university is, unquestionably, UNAM (however they got that way), and the most important private university is, also unquestionably, ITESM. IPADE is not a University, it is a business school, meaning they only teach masters in business, and do not have programs for bachelor degrees, in engineering, in medicine, or in any other discipline that is not business... ITAM, UAG, UDEM, and many other schools are indeed very important private universities, however none has the overall quality (measured by reach of so many campuses, rigidity in grading, overall demand of graduates, and accreditations) that ITESM has. That is why I believe it should be the one menctioned.

I also said that this should be an article all by iteslf. Therefore the subsection here should be extremely small. Perhaps in the "full" article we can menction other schools, including COLMEX and IPADE, and all the others. Perhaps we can even menction the "patito" universities, that are a growing problem. Hari Seldon 18:35, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree, the budget for public education should not be discussed here. I am not surprised, though, you agree with Calderon: It is even easier to agree with him when you come from the aristocracy that can afford to speak two languages and pay for private education (Reminds me of this white south african lady that said apartheid was made for the good of the people and then added the phrase 'those savages'). It is always easier when you are oblivious to the hardships of those less fortunate than you.

IPADE is part of the Universidad Panamericana, you can include the UP, but it does not make sense to include a full sentence of the school that is ranked 7th as an asset to the country, when it homes the 3rd.

Your entire last proposal was built upon assumptions, that with the facts provided have been shown to be false. Because UNAM is the most important spanish speaking university in the world, it should be a matter of pride for Mexicans and I believe the way the article is worded is appropriate. In the grand scheme of things, private universities don't really contribute socially, as they are businesses first and schools second. This situation might change though, since its a determination of the new government to abolish public education through its privatization through the back door (at the same time eliminating most of the people that dissent and have a critical opinion against them). Andy Rosenthal 20:34, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Also, I forgot to say , that the measure of the quality of a University has a wider span than your parameters "measured by reach of so many campuses, rigidity in grading, overall demand of graduates, and accreditations". It has to do with the prestige of the faculty and the impact it has in the scientific community (We could discuss for example what is the role of ITESM in the formation of people in the humanities field, or perhaps the scientific contributions it can claim). I encourage you to review the criteria used by "The Times" to select the universities included in their ranking. The role of a university is not only to graduate students that perform well on standardized tests, it so much more than that. At least for a true university. Andy Rosenthal 22:11, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Andy, always so professional: insulting those who disagree with you and making assumptions without verifiable information...

My argument proves to be false at the lack of evidence? Well, lets investigate! Lets make this about the article and not about you and me. Since when is this a personal matter?

Anyways, back to our discussion: We can add Universidad Panamericana if you'd like. Just for the record, IPADE should be compared to EGADE, and not to the overall ITESM. EGADE is ITESM's business school, just as IPADE is UP's business school. We have to compare apples to apples, and a university is far more than just its business school. So, is UP better, more recognized, more "prestigious", and has better standing than ITESM as a private institution?

"Private universities don't really contribute socially"... "Social contributions" are a matter of opinion, and thus judging weather or not they make any sort of social contribution is an opinion. Are we going to base our decision of wikipedia content based on opinions, now?

"It is a determination of the new government"... I thought we were not discussing this. If you want to discuss it, I'll create a message board and we will discuss it there.

How do you measure prestige of the faculty? All the factors I stated are numerical, and therefore, objective, and that is the reason I chose them. Prestige of the faculty, who is to say that a professor from UNAM is more "prestigious" than a professor from Universidad de Yucatan?

Finally, this section is about education, not research. "Science and research" is a different issue than education, and therefore research should not be considered when talking about education.

Hari Seldon 23:20, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

As I said before you can review the parameters employed by The Times, Thompson Scientific, US news or any other institution that ranks academic institutions worldwide, and see what their methodology is. Usually, the prestige of the faculty is determined by polls applied to peers of the people being ranked. I understand that this is your ranking and you chose what you think are best parameters, but there are institutions that do this professionally and I think that their measure is based on a wealth of information that you do not have. The fact that you chose this parameters, makes this statement, your opinion, and not a fact (As objective as numbers may seem). I could not agree more with you, no contribution here should be based on opinions. For example, you said that UNAM holds a higher ranking because it uses most of the government resources devoted for education? I provided evidence that this is not the case. That was an opinion you used to construct a case for your claim. I do not think that is appropriate. (I did use personal opinions on my contributions, and I would probably find people that would agree with them, but I did not use them to sustain a claim that would change the article)

I am unaware though if a ranking as such has been made in Mexico, Reforma publishes a rating of the Universities based in Mexico city, that I was unaware to find straight from the source, however here is a webpage that talks about it http://www.latrinchera.org/foros/archive/index.php/t-8511.html, also I am pretty sure that the ANUIES has a ranking that is based on different parameters. It seems that the ITESM is highly ranked, but it is probably a leap of faith to say that it is the best. I mentioned the UP because It seemed to that you were unaware that IPADE is part of a University, and it seems you know little about it, for example, UP is prestigious in the fields of theology, business and also, medicine (According to the performance of its graduates on the ENARM). It is important to note, however, that these rankings only consider certain aspects of the institutions (intergration to workforce, salary after graduation, etc) and do not account for the research done in the institutions.

Finally if you review the entry on this same encyclopedia about universities, you will see that research is part of the goals of a university. It might be hard to see the connection, but one is linked to the other. (That is why ITESM sends it's students on internships to Universities in the US to perform research). I also want you to note that the rankings that are quoted in the paragraph above, weight highly research or publications (or what is called the impact factor of them) in their methodologies, the amount of grants from the federal government dedicated to research, etc. This is not my opinion, it is how they do it. (It might seem short sighted to use a ranking like this, but unfortunately, the rankings are made by people that have a different concept of higher education and of higher education institutions, that in fact, includes research)

The flagship of professional education in mexico is UNAM, and this is why I think the article should remain as it is, perhaps with a modification to the second paragraph that adds the most important private and public institutions that have importance like the UANL, Universida de Colima, Universidad Autonoma de San Luis Potosi, COLMEX, IPN, UAM, Universidad Veracruzana, Universidad de Guadalajara, etc. With the contribution of people with more expertise and knowledge of the field, perhaps a new entry called education in Mexico should be added, as you suggested, in which these issues are discussed thoroughly. I apologize if I insulted you (though it was not my intention). Andy Rosenthal 00:39, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Please refer to the article higher education , where it states "Higher education includes teaching, research and social services activities of universities" perhaps you should go into the discussion page pertaining to that article and tell them "Science and research" is a different issue than education, and therefore research should not be considered when talking about education This is what makes the argument so upsetting, because you come out of nowhere with ideas of what you think things are that do not correlate to reality. Andy Rosenthal 04:15, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Andy: I never said that I was perfect, and of course I make mistakes. The purpose of Talk pages is to expose our ideas and have our mistakes corrected. Lets just assume good faith on both of our sides and collaborate in creating better articles. First, I would like to advance a proposal:

• This sub-section is called "Education" and as such it is about education and not about which university is better. I also propose that this sub-section be as shorter as possible (two paragraphs at most), and that we later create a larger, more comprehensive article called "Education in Mexico", and IN THERE, we can create a more detailed summary of how education works in Mexico, including more details on the univeristy.
• My proposal is that we reduce the sub-section in this article (for the benefit of the reader who wants to know general ideas about Mexico, and doesn't want to spend time finding more detailed information on Education), Here, we should add more information on basic education, article 3rd of the constitution, and we merely menction that there are private and public universities, and we menction one of each (Which can be UNAM and ITESM, or whichever we can agree on, read the rest of my arguments)... If the reader wishes to find out more about how the Univeristy system works in Mexico, he can go to the new article we will create, called "Education in Mexico", and then to the sub-section called "Universities", in which we will add a lot more detail, perhaps most of the contents of this discussion. What do you think of this?

Now, back to our discussion:

• Rankings are fine, but the more rankings the better. By the way, some rankings done in Mexico use the criteria that I menctioned to rank universities. That is the reason why I menctioned that criteria, but of course, rankings are more useful in an encyclopedia, so lets use them. Preferrably, lets use those in which there are the most Mexican universities ranked (i.e. Lets use Mexican rankings). I would discourage the use of the Reforma one because it only measures universities in Mexico City, and last I heard, there where plenty of high quality universities outside the capital as well.
• So, I made a mistake with the UNAM. I am sorry, that is why I did not pursue the discussion further. I read what I said about UNAM a long time ago and assumed that it still was the case. In any case, I never disputed that UNAM was the best public University in Mexico, so I don't understand what the ill sentiment is all about.
• About IPADE, again, you tried to compare IPADE to ITESM. My point is that the correct comparison should be IPADE to EGADE. Sure, IPADE is part of a University, and so is EGADE, but for the purposes of ranking Universities, you don't just rank one part of it (i.e., its business school), you need to rank it overall. You need to compare apples to apples, i.e., UP vs. ITESM and IPADE vs. EGADE. Sure, IPADE is better than EGADE, but is UP overall better than ITESM? I just want to say that if we find evidence and verifiable facts that there is a better private university than ITESM in Mexico, then that is the one that should go in the article. Right now, my assumption is that ITESM is the best because that is the limited information that I have. But my assumptions can change in the presence of newer and better information.
• The article "Higher education" says that "Higher education is education provided by Universities, vocational universities, and other collegial institutions that award academic degrees.. It includes teaching, research and social services." Ok, I've read it, I am sorry I was wrong. Now, which private university does more research? How do we decide which private university to include?
• Perhaps, if chosing just one is uncomfortable, we can have a list of up to 5 (i.e. "There are many public universities in Mexico including, UNAM, UANL, IPN, Universidad Metropolitana, UABC, and there are also many private universities in Mexico, like ITESM, ITAM, ITESO, Universidad Panamericana, and UDEM.")

Finally, and just for the record, I have nothing against public universities, including UNAM or UANL, or any others... A lot of my friends and family are graduates from such universities and I recognize their quality. I have nothing against them. However, the Mexican education system is not perfect (neither public nor private), and some of that should be recognized in wikipedia, however, it may be best if it was recognized in the new article "Education in Mexico"... Hari Seldon 17:15, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Sorry I have delayed my participation in this discussion. It seems that a consensus will soon be reached. I just want to make a few points. Research is not only part of higher education, it is its very core. Unfortunately in Mexico universities are thought of as teaching centers and not as research institutions. It is out of research that university teaching comes forth, and not a mere regurgitation of the findings of other universities. That is why UNAM ranks so high even amongst Latin American universities. The majority of ranking systems include an extensive way to measure research: number of papers published, quality and quantity (even number of pages), patents awarded, percentage of faculty involved in active research and the like. Like one of my PhD professor once told me, it is our job to prove that the textbooks are wrong [or right].

Now, selecting 5 universities is going to be quite a challenge. Amongst the 5 most important public universities, nobody doubts that UNAM is included, but why UANL and not UABJO or BUAP? [I had read in an article that BUAP is the second public university in science research in Mexico]. Well, I propose that if a list of 5 universities has to be included then this list should include the 5 top-ranked public universities from a ranking source that should be properly referenced. The same thing for private universities, why UDEM and not UAG which is by far one of the most prestigious universities [at least it is well known here in the US when it comes to Medicine, and advertised as a top-choice MedSchool candidate for American citizens], or UDLAP? Again, we should include the top 5 universities according to a properly sourced ranking site. This way we will avoid constant vandalism or unnecessary changes. I once added a list of top 5 universities in the Catalan article (my choice, and this was my mistake) and, of course, a few days later an anonymous user added his university, and then came another that deleted one and added his, and so on.

--Alonso 18:22, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

I was just giving examples, but perhaps we can use a standarized ranking system for universities and say "according to this ranking, the top 5 public universities in mexico are 'a', 'b', 'c', 'd', and 'e', and the top 5 private universities are 'f', 'g', 'h', 'i', and 'j'. That way we protect the article from vandalism and make it more netural. Additionally, it could be helpful if we identify the factors used in that ranking system (some use number of graduates that can find jobs, others use research output as a measure of ranking), this will give the reader even more idea of how precise and useful is the ranking.

There already is a pretty good ranking in the Spanish language wikipedia Ranking of Mexican Universities. This might be of use.

In any case, what is important for this sub section is to show that both types of systems of higher education (public and private) exist. We shall later create an article on the Education in Mexico to provide more detail. Hari Seldon 06:25, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps medicine is a complex case, the UAG is appealing for US citizens because it has what is called a fifth pathway program, meaning that their graduates can take clinical electives in the US, the classes are in english and the training is focused on passing the US boards (even the tuition is based in USD). I've been thinking also, that UIA has sevEral campuses in Mexico (Puebla, Morelos?), so do other universities (I am even sure that the enrollment of UNITEC or Justo Sierra is probably pretty high). So the enrollment is not an important factor. I am sure I have read rankings from the ANUIES, which is the source that I would trust for a reliable unbiased ranking (I will look for it and see if I have any luck).

The irony of Mexico is that it has two of the world's top ten business schools, when it was ranked 30 of 31 in education by the OCDE (http://www.siteselection.com/ssinsider/snapshot/sf011210.htm). This is perhaps something that should be mentioned (although is no source of pride). Andy Rosenthal 07:37, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Andy, we should include all relevant verifiable facts, even those that are not a source of pride. Based on the information we have, I will work between today and friday to create a draft that we can edit, so that we can substitute what is there.

By the way, there already is an article Education in Mexico. It seems like it has very limited information. Perhaps we can expand it.

Hari Seldon 15:50, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

todo

I've added a to-do up top to get a general idea of what needs to be improved. What needs to be expanded, what needs to be tweaked, sourced, etc. Try to be specific, if possible. W3stfa11 23:10, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

I find this horribly offensive and profoundly incorrect.

In the second paragraph:

"Mexico is very gay and all of the god damn wetbacks that live there take it deep."

I find this horribly offensive and profoundly incorrect.

That is vandalism and should be removed.Hari Seldon 18:27, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Reference: Culture Roman Catholic

Reference: Culture Roman Catholic There is a reference to the percentage of romain catholics here: https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/mx.html

--JMWTech 03:10, 21 December 2006 (UTC)