Talk:Black Lives Matter

Seperate page for the social movement?

This page mainly discusses the activist organization known as "Black Lives Matter", but there exists a broader social movement that exists around the slogan "black lives matter". I recently wrote a separate article with sources detailing the separate broader movement, but it was deleted because the editor believed the information was already here. Organizations and social movements typically have separate pages on Wikipedia, for example the page Black Panther Party is separate from the page Black Power movement even though they are related. Should we make a Black Lives Matter movement page for the larger social movement and all its intricacies?Mangokeylime (talk) 17:02, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

I agree that there should be separate pages about Black Lives Matter as a social movement and Black Lives Matter as the network of activist organizations. The lead to this article states that Black Lives Matter is a social movement, but the infobox and the bulk of the article are about the (network of) activist organizations. There are continuing confusions throughout; for example, there is a section on the Movement for Black Lives' statement on Israel, which would be better placed in the page of the Movement for Black Lives organization. The page as it stands now muddles rather than clarifies the multiple uses of the term "Black Lives Matter". Kumar (talk) 14:57, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

There have been many recent edits to this page, many of which removed the history of the organization pre #Blacklivesmatter to include its original founders and the organizations startup in the late 1990s (https://psmag.com/news/the-past-present-and-future-of-the-black-lives-matter-network). Additionally, there is an absence of links to the other # movements that #Blacklivesmater and #BlacklivesmatterDC have stated are a part of the #Blacklivesmatter movement such as #Defundthepolice. According to not just the leaders but the organizations press releases #defundthepolice IS #Blacklivesmatter and cannot be addressed separately (https://www.wbur.org/hereandnow/2020/06/03/black-lives-matter-co-founder and #blacklivesmatterDC twitter). Why were these relevant attributes of the organization allowed to be deleted? 96.18.201.232 (talk) 06:30, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

I also agree that the Black Lives Matter social movement page should be split from the Black Lives Matter Global Network. It's a huge point of confusion... and something that ought be fixed in a timely fashion. I suspect this page is receiving a lot of traffic of late. Wikipedia should help clarify the distinction between the social movement and the organization, not add to the confusion. The way the article is written gives undue weight to a specific organization within the social movement by conflating that organization with the movement itself. GottaShowMe (talk) 13:43, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 2 June 2020

Footnote/source #54 is a dead link and needs to be updated or removed. 173.61.193.159 (talk) 18:47, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: See WP:KDL. If somebody wishes to fix it they are free to do so, but simply because it's a dead link is no reason to remove it. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 19:24, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Lead saying that Black Lives Matter has disappeared

Why is this in the lead? Snooganssnoogans (talk) 19:36, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

There's no such text in the lead AFAICS... RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 19:41, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

The lead ends with this garbage: "By the summer of 2017, the movement was getting significantly less attention, which some people attribute to Donald Trump's presidency dominating national headlines." Snooganssnoogans (talk) 19:42, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

I have removed this content (cited to a single 2017 source) as dated and, in any case, not lead-worthy. If anyone believes that it should be in the lead, then they can come to this talk page and make their case. Thanks, Neutrality^talk 19:06, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

Civil rights activists disagree among each other about tactics – why is this in the lead?

Every single movement will have actors that disagree with the tactics used, in particular in rather decentralized movements such as this one. Why is this mentioned in the lead? By giving such prominent placement, it seems to serve the purpose of suggesting to readers that BLM is highly divisive among civil rights activists. As far as I can tell, the text is covered in two sentences in the body of the article, and only mentions four individuals who have expressed disagreement over some tactics used. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 19:42, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

As far as I can see, there's a whole section on this... Please don't be an annoyance. Thanks, RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 19:52, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

? There are two sentences about black civil rights leaders disagreeing with some of the tactics of BLM. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 19:58, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

WikiProject Black Lives Matter

I've created WikiProject Black Lives Matter for interested editors. Thanks, ---Another Believer _(Talk) 21:06, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 June 2020

Does not have any references to the cops shot because of the black lives matter protests this last week. Source: https://www.reviewjournal.com/crime/shootings/las-vegas-police-identify-officer-shot-during-protest-2041743/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/06/01/george-floyd-protests-trump-black-lives-matter-minneapolis-usa/ Pyrojkl (talk) 20:10, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: I'm sure it's listed at the proper page, which is not this one. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:14, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

Use of the word "alleged" referring to St. Louis police brutality

The word "alleged" usually implies some sort of dubiousness to the claim. I believe there should be a citation here, and the word "alleged" removed. What thoughts does everyone else have? I'd be bold but I feel it would be better if someone who, a) lived in St. Louis, or b) wasn't white, or both, chimed in, as I'm out of my bailiwick. DancingGrumpyCat^talk | ze/zir or she/her) 02:27, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

"Wasn't white" how about less racism from you?

.it says alleged because it's unproven, and also that every single statistic for cop killings show that there is no bias against blacks. Official sources such as FBI, WAPO and dept of justice show that unarmed whites have a higher likelihood to be killed by cops than unarmed blacks. Yashamaga (talk) 08:58, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 5 June 2020

As of June 2020, all 50 states and 18 countries have protested for Black Lives Matter making it the largest civil rights movement in history. 107.77.206.220 (talk) 16:01, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. TheImaCow (talk) 16:12, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

To hyphenate or not?

African-Americans or African Americans? What is the consensus? I must confess that I hadn't noticed the hyphenated version being so prevalent here... The African American article inconsistently uses both (why is the title not African-American)? Kingoflettuce (talk) 16:11, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 June 2020

I would like add a section on the corporation that currently donate to black lives matters including the W K Kellog Foundation and Ford Foundation. Ansu Mastu (talk) 00:49, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

 Not done for now: ​Please show a "draft" of what you would want in that section. {{replyto|Can I Log In}}'s talk page! 00:55, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

Draft This will go under controversies:

The Black Lives Matter movement has come under fire for the funding that it receives from massive corporations many consider to be using the movement as a PR move. Foundations such as the W K. Kellogs Foundation and the Ford Foundation have donated large sums to the movement. Although the founder of the W K. Kellogs foundation Will Keith Kellogs was a known proponent of eugenics and Henry Fordmedium published anti-Semitic writings.

References

Semi-protected edit request on 6 June 2020

The use of BLM is inappropiate as that acronym is and has always been used by the Bureau of Land Management. I am offend by Black lives matter using the acronym. Please stop the reference. 2600:100E:B132:F00B:2E8D:18AE:2460:A8EB (talk) 17:45, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: We don't change things based on editors' feelings of offense when there's no reasonable cause EvergreenFir (talk) 18:03, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

The use of BLM has caused conflict in searching, was conducting research on the police shooting of Robert "LaVoy" Finicum as part of the Occupy action in Oregon in 2016. BLM is the official abbreviation used by the Bureau of Land Management in the United States of America and is referenced consistently on the wiki page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bureau_of_Land_Management . Failure to allow this to be addressed would be a rather large failure of moderator responsibility. 96.18.201.232 (talk) 06:19, 7 June 2020 (UTC) EDIT: Perhaps change it to (#BLM) ?

What? BLM is a disambiguation page. Anyone searching the term will be taken there and they can choose the meaning they're looking for. It creates no conflicts it include the abbreviation here. There is nothing to change unless you mean we should remove the abbreviation from the article entirely which would be ridiculous.  EvergreenFir (talk) 06:30, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 June 2020

Nowhere on the page is a reference to the connection of Black Lives Matter (BLM) and #defundthepolice. Per the organization itself, the two movements are not separable as #BLM created #defundthepolice and applied the pressure for responses from political leaders in 2020. (https://blacklivesmatter.com/defundthepolice/ or https://www.wbur.org/hereandnow/2020/06/03/black-lives-matter-co-founder). There should be attribution to this and perhaps even merging wiki.Defund the Police with wiki.Black Lives Matter page. 96.18.201.232 (talk) 04:12, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. JTP ^{(talk • contribs)} 17:32, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 June 2020

Request to remove the two paragraphs in the "United Kingdom" section, specifically these two :

"In London, after it was defaced a few days earlier,[233] protestors defaced the Statue of Winston Churchill, Parliament Square, Westminster with graffiti for a second time. Black spray paint was sprayed over his name and the words "was a racist" were sprayed underneath.[234] A protestor also attempted to burn the Union Jack Flag flying at the Cenotaph, a memorial to Britain’s war dead.[235] Later in the evening violence broke out between protestors and Police. A total of 49 Police Officers were injured after demonstrators threw bottles and fireworks at them.[236]

Over the weekend, a total of 135 arrests were made by Police.[237] British Prime Minister Boris Johnson commented on the events saying "those who attack public property or the police – who injure the police officers who are trying to keep us all safe – those people will face the full force of the law; not just because of the hurt and damage they are causing, but because of the damage they are doing to the cause they claim to represent.[238] "

REASON:

The impression is strongly given that these have been included merely for reasons of political bias and/or to provide skewed negative associations, as they are completely irrelevant and have absolutely nothing to do with the subject ("Black Lives Matter") which the article is about. Vandalism and the other petty crimes mentioned were not sanctioned by the protest movement and are in any case not particularly unusual events, and unlike the Colston statue issue in Bristol, in this case did not have greater symbolic or public significance or effect. It would be more useful, interesting and informative if the article had included, for instance, information on the number of protesters and some of their demands.

The comments of the Prime Minister given here are also completely irrelevant to the subject. If he should be included at all, the relevant part of his speech, ommitted for unknown/questionable reasons, is where he says "“You are right, we are all right, to say Black Lives Matter; and to all those who have chosen to protest peacefully and who have insisted on social distancing – I say, yes of course I hear you, and I understand.'".

SpurredByLove (talk) 08:19, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

As for the second request, regarding the Cenotaph, the source says: Even some supporters of the Black Lives Matter movement worried that the vandalism of the statue would only alienate Britons from the cause of social justice. But others thought the graffiti was spot-on, seeing such acts as manifestations of justifiable rage.

So I believe it has relevance there. The first event, re the statue, would need some researching to ensure it's not connected in any way (in which case, removal may appear correct). Regarding the speech, the former comment from the PM should probably be added. ProcrasinatingReader (talk) 03:07, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. There appears to be a discussion in this section about the merits of this change. Please note that edit requests should only be made once a consensus has been reached. Please continue this discussion in another section on this talk page and gain a consensus before reopening this request. Thanks. — Tartan357  ^(Talk) 23:24, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Politicians and corporations coming around to BLM

Please include a section or paragraph in the article giving for instance the example of Nancy Pelosi espousing All Lives Matter as recently as last year ( https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/policing/2019/01/07/nancy-pelosi-black-lives-matter-federal-prisons-sexual-assault-police-killings/2500021002/ ), as one example of politicians who have "evolved" or changed their stance on this (flip-flopped when it was politically popular, but obviously keep that analysis out for the sake of NPOV). Pelosi and other Democrats, and even Mitt Romney are now doing nice little theatrics pretending to believe that Black Lives Matter -- espousing the slogan. However, these examples, along with all the other politicians and major multinational corporations going from treating the issue as political poison to cashing in on it to earn some Twitter points, should be discussed in the article. 66.169.133.247 (talk) 02:37, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

Funding section

The Funding section claims "Black Lives Matter have received over $100 million in funding from the Open Society Foundations, Ford Foundation and Borealis Philanthropy among others.[70][71] In addition, the Black Lives Matter Movement has received support from organizations and foundations like the Black Youth Project 100, the Black Civic Engagement Fund, the Center for Popular Democracy, Color of Change and the Advancement Project.[72]"

This seems very poorly sourced. The 2016 Washington Times article which claims "Black Lives Matter is increasingly awash in cash, raking in pledges of more than $100 million" appears to confuse Black Lives Matter with Movement for Black Lives. It also claims the Soros foundation gave $33 million to BLM, which has been fact checked by Snopes and found to be the total donated by OSF to all organisations with even the most tangential of connections to the Ferguson protests. The Politico article "major donors consider funding black lives matter" doesn't mention any figures at all.

At the very least, it needs clarification of what is meant by 'Black Lives Matter' in the context of funding - namely dozens of different organisations involved in racial equality and justice in some way.

The most recent tax filing I can find for the Black Lives Matter Foundation (the organisation rather than the broader movement) is from 2017 and is for $279,109. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nephtys84 (talk • contribs) 08:36, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

Agreed. If anything, it looks like referencing funding goals over the next 10 years and not remotely a received funding. --Msherby (talk) 00:09, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

Looking at the section and references again, I think this funding section needs a lot of re-work to make accurate, including new references. The two references are from 2016 and not good quality. Msherby (talk) 00:22, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

The 279,109 amount you are talking about is for the Black Lives Matter Foundation which is different from the Black Lives Matter Global Network. The Global Network is the corporation linked at the top of this wiki article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bewkid (talk • contribs) 21:47, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

Why was this even removed? Even the Black Lives Matter website has a donation button right at the top of the page. When you click on "Donate" it even shows their registration ID's in each state. The reason why as someone mentioned above there hasn't been a donation to the actual foundation since 2017 is because all donations now go through ActBlue. It also says this on the Black Lives Matter official website. Here is the direct website: https://blacklivesmatter.com/ You can clearly see the giant blue "Donate" button, and when you click it, you can see the registration ID's on the right side of the page, and what organization is handling the BLM donations for them. The Funding section needs to go back up. 2601:145:500:831:40F7:D571:8CE5:B24 (talk) 22:34, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

Ford Foundation claims to fund "Movement for Black Lives" (aka M4BL) on its own website. This link also confirms the funding from Borealis Philanthropy:

https://www.fordfoundation.org/ideas/equals-change-blog/posts/why-black-lives-matter-to-philanthropy/

"Movement for Black Lives" is NOT in fact separate from BLM. M4BL is a coalition of groups which includes BLM (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Movement_for_Black_Lives https://web.archive.org/web/20190502120213/https://policy.m4bl.org/about/)

From Borealis Philanthropy, we see a quote from a senior member of Open Society Foundations which confirms their support for M4BL (and hence BLM):

“We are proud to be a BLMF donor in this important political moment because supporting the Movement for Black Lives (M4BL) is what will make long-lasting, systemic change possible,” said Alvin Starks, Senior Program Officer with the equality team of the Open Society Foundations’ U.S. Programs.

https://borealisphilanthropy.org/black-led-movement-fund-2018-grantees-focus-on-cross-movement-collaboration/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.247.111.114 (talk) 00:00, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 10 June 2020 ( Marxism )

Remove reference to 'Marxism' as an aim of BLM in the sidebar. This is completely unfounded and the supporting references for this claim are from established right-wing agitating sources. The references quoted do not support the inclusion of Marxism as an aim of BLM in any way. 212.69.53.171 (talk) 14:19, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

Aren't some of the founders self-described Marxists?- "She describes herself as a Marxist and a queer social justice activist" from- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alicia_Garza

 Done That was vandalism that has been removed. Garza may identify as Marxist, but that doesn't mean BLM is too. – Muboshgu (talk) 16:49, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

They are "trained Marxists" according to one of the founders, Patrisse Cullors: https://justthenews.com/politics-policy/video-resurfaces-which-black-lives-matter-founder-says-groups-creators-are-trained https://therealnews.com/stories/pcullors0722blacklives — Preceding unsigned comment added by Psyden (talk • contribs) 03:04, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 10 June 2020

George Soros Key Person 2600:6C50:7280:4616:E0FE:9C25:23F5:7D2A (talk) 18:47, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. EvergreenFir (talk) 18:57, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

Category:Dishonoured statues

I have created Category:Dishonoured statues (0) (talk) (first member was Statue of Edward Colston; it now includes a Stalin ;-) ). See also its talkpage for consistent & useful usage. -DePiep (talk) 19:51, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

this is a welcomed category but 'dishonoured' seems like a catch-all term that could encompass many things, from a vandalistic graffiti to a statue being torn down. (PS: see Decommunization in Ukraine, List of communist monuments in Ukraine, Demolition of monuments to Vladimir Lenin in Ukraine, Category:Destroyed landmarks in Ukraine, Category:Destroyed sculptures, Removal of Confederate monuments and memorials, etc. for other examples to add to your category).Alcaios (talk) 20:02, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

(ec) (I just lost my reply, will reply to first version) -DePiep (talk) 20:23, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

(ec) @Alcaios: Yes, 'inclusion creep' is tricky (see also the cat:talk). That is why the category page has in its intro "... explicitly and more permanently dishonoured". This excludes e.g. paint throwing. and we'll see how this develops. Existing categories Dishonoured and Destroyed do not have this dimension. This is wikipedia, so development is open :-)

Sorry for the edit conflict, I was including other articles to help you. Alcaios (talk) 20:44, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

OK (I usually don't lose my edit in an ec; probably now bc the earlier post was edited). BTW, I have checked Category:Destroyed sculptures and lots of Ukrainian statues qualified for inclusion. You can take a look & check. -DePiep (talk) 12:58, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

Also, the new category is open for WP:DIFFUSE: subcategories for Ukraine, US-confederates, UK-colonialism, Stalin, ... may be created. I do not know the Ukraine history well enough to be specific about Ukraine. -DePiep (talk) 20:39, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

Maybe notability is best secured when the statue itself has its own article. -DePiep (talk) 20:45, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

Organization structure

This article is missing information about how the organization is legally structured and should include incorporation or non-profit information. FinalNemesis (talk) 14:09, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 June 2020

40.142.143.153 (talk) 12:39, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

Ford did not donate to BLM. But they did donate to black lives movement. They are totally different.

 Done Removed, thanks. Existing source said the same, but also noting this article: https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/ford-motors-funds-black-lives-matter/ ProcrasinatingReader (talk) 03:12, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 June 2020

change African-American to Black, many Black-Americans do not have origins in Africa. 206.176.144.9 (talk) 14:02, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

All humans have origins in Africa. There are African Americans descended from the slave trade, and others who are recent migrants from Africa. Who are these non-Africa-related black Americans you speak of? Aboriginals are called "black" in Australia, but I doubt their small presence alone is enough to remove "African-American" from this page. Wallachia Wallonia (talk) 23:24, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. – Muboshgu (talk) 19:05, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• March against the Yanez not guilty verdict in the shooting of Philando Castile (35229974362).jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 10:52, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

Only in the Western world?

BLM appear to only exist in the Western world & have no interest in what happens elsewhere. The article should state why they ignore what's happening in the rest of the world. The vast majority of black people don't live in the West, so it's strange to exclude them. Is there an explanation for their narrow focus? Jim Michael (talk) 11:25, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

We can only state that with reliable sources. Otherwise it would be original research. No focus on Latin America or the Caribbean either, for that matter, it's all about rich Western countries. But if that is what the sources say, our hands are tied. ♫ RichardWeiss talk contribs 17:08, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

Secrecy and confusion

The domain name "blacklivesmatter.com" is registered by "GoDaddy.com, LLC". The registrant's e-mail address is "blacklivesmatter.com@domainsbyproxy.com". The name of the registrant is not provided. Why is the registrant's name being kept secret? There is a Delaware corporation named "Black Lives Matter Global Network, Inc." (no. 6194815; incorporated 11/18/2016). And there is a California corporation named "Black Lives Matter Foundation" (no. C3790568; incorporated 5/22/2015). Which of these two corporations is the article titled "Black Lives Matter" about? Scott Gregory Beach (talk) 17:30, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

@Scott Gregory Beach: This article is not about a particular corporation, it concerns the overarching Black Lives Matter movement. If you have queries about domain registration, you would be better off directing them to the domain registering company (which you seem to have identified as being GoDaddy). You may find the help page for talk pages useful to confirm what the scope is of topics here. Hope this helps. Best, Darren-M talk 20:53, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for explaining that the article is about a social movement, not about a particular organization. Since that is the case, the "Infobox organization" should be removed from the article because it gives the false impression that the article is about a particular organization. Scott Gregory Beach (talk) 21:16, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

@Scott Gregory Beach: I think the infobox itself is useful, but I've amended the organisation type from "Activist organisation", to "Activist movement". I think this better reflects the content we already have elsewhere (especially the lead), which explicitly details that while formal 'chapters' exist, Black Lives Matters itself is an informal movement. Best, Darren-M talk 21:25, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

Many people say that they donate(d) money to BLM. If it's a movement rather than an org, who receives the money? Jim Michael (talk) 08:23, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

BLM not a tax exempt charity?

The Internal Revenue Service continuously publishes and regularly updates its "list of organizations eligible to receive tax-deductible charitable contributions".

Publication 78 Data: https://www.irs.gov/charities-non-profits/tax-exempt-organization-search-bulk-data-downloads

The Delaware corporation "Black Lives Matter Global Network, Inc." (no. 6194815; incorporated 11/18/2016) is not on that list of "eligible" organizations.

And the Delaware corporation "Black Lives Matter Global Network Foundation, Inc." (no. 6518139; incorporated 10/16/2017) is not on that list of "eligible" organizations.

It therefore appears that neither of these corporations is eligible to receive tax-deductible charitable contributions.

So where is the money going?

"Black Lives Matter Managing Director Roasted for Dodging Questions on Finances, Antisemitism". Breitbart, June 10, 2020.

Scott Gregory Beach (talk) 20:45, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

@Scott Gregory Beach: I am unclear what edit you are suggesting here, but it is worth calling out that Breitbart is a blacklisted source except for opinion. Further detail here: WP:BREITBART. If you have a desired change, either be bold, or make sure to provide sufficient detail here including reliable sources so somebody can review it and add. Best, Darren-M talk 21:30, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

I took you advice. I boldly added a couple of sentences to "Loose structure". Scott Gregory Beach (talk) 03:59, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

@Darren-M: It appears that Scott Gregory Beach is correct. The blacklivesmatter.com website is not affiliated with the Black Lives Matter global movement. See https://www.complex.com/life/2020/06/black-lives-matter-foundation-not-affiliated-with-movement or any of the other articles that have come out in the past few days regarding this. MikeToddATL

Hard-Left Organisation that supports the removal of police across the world

I have included some links for the people who don't have the general knowledge on this organisation. The BLM website also shows they are a communist organisation. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/06/12/make-no-mistake-blm-radical-neo-marxist-political-movement/ https://blacklivesmatter.com/what-we-believe/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/how-the-black-lives-matter-movement-went-mainstream/2020/06/09/201bd6e6-a9c6-11ea-9063-e69bd6520940_story.html (Airline7375 (talk) 17:56, 15 June 2020 (UTC))

Per WaPo: "As consensus grows about the existence of systemic racism in American policing and other facets of American life, longtime organizers of the Black Lives Matter movement are trying to extend its momentum beyond the popularization of a phrase. Activists sense a once-in-a-generation opportunity to demand policy changes that once seemed far-fetched, including sharp cuts to police budgets in favor of social programs, and greater accountability for officers who kill residents." The Telegraph piece is an op-ed. I don't see any mention of marxism on the BLM website that you linked to. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 18:09, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

Airline7375, please keep your point of view and original research off of this talk page and stick with what reliable sources actually say, none of which call BLM "communist".. – Muboshgu (talk) 19:13, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

Follow the money

A California nonprofit public benefit corporation named International Development Exchange was formed on May 16, 1985. https://businesssearch.sos.ca.gov/Document/RetrievePDF?Id=01275657-3638077

International Development Exchange changed it name to Thousand Currents on May 3, 2017. https://businesssearch.sos.ca.gov/Document/RetrievePDF?Id=01275657-22294922

A Delaware corporation named "Black Lives Matter Global Network Foundation, Inc." was formed on October 16, 2017.

Thousand Currents is the fiscal sponsor of Black Lives Matter Global Network Foundation, Inc.

In 2017, Thousand Currents gave a "cash grant" of $62,000 to a California corporation named Black Lives Matter Foundation. https://thousandcurrents.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/THOUSAND-CURRENTS-2017-990-PDC.pdf And in the previous year, Thousand Currents gave $28,130 to Black Lives Matter Foundation. https://thousandcurrents.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/FY17-990-Thousand-Currents.pdf

Black Lives Matter Foundation receives cash grants from Thousand Currents, and Thousand Currents is the fiscal sponsor of Black Lives Matter Global Network Foundation, Inc. This makes me wonder whether Thousand Currents is receiving charitable donations on behalf of Black Lives Matter Global Network Foundation, Inc. and whether Black Lives Matter Global Network Foundation, Inc. is instructing Thousand Currents to give some of the donated moneys to Black Lives Matter Foundation.

"The Black Lives Matter Foundation" Raised Millions. It's Not Affiliated With The Black Lives Matter Movement. https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/ryanmac/black-lives-matter-foundation-unrelated-blm-donations

Scott Gregory Beach (talk) 02:11, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

"Cease and Desist Order"

Issued to Black Lives Matter Foundation

Issued by Xavier Becerra, California Attorney General

Dated "December 2, 2019"

http://rct.doj.ca.gov/Verification/Web/Download.aspx?saveas=1520997+.pdf&document_id=09027b8f803ac14f

Scott Gregory Beach (talk) 04:48, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

Position on Israel still current?

First, as another user mentioned, the statement on Israel was apparently made by the Movement for Black Lives (perhaps not even that organization directly), not Black LIves Matter, so does this section belong here? Here's the article on the subject: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/08/why-did-black-american-activists-start-caring-about-palestine/496088/

Second, that article is from 2016. I've been crawling all over the BLM and the M4BL websites, and I can't find a position on Israel anywhere currently on either of those sites. I've been doing a keyword search for "Israel" on all pages - nothing. Perhaps it's been removed? And if so, shouldn't that be mentioned? M4BL got an awful lot of flack for the wording of that statement back in 2016, wouldn't be surprised if the position has simply quietly "disappeared" from any public statements since then. If someone else can find it, please clear up the mystery!142.202.44.13 (talk) 14:00, 17 June 2020 (UTC)Hat Wever

Cultural impacts of the Black Lives Matter movement

I would like to create a new article for cultural outcomes of the Black Lives Matter movement. Perhaps Cultural impacts of the Black Lives Matter movement or another name that is meant to cover art, street art, music, literature, etc.

I am not finding an existing article like this... and this article has an Influences section where I suggest having a paragraph with a {{main}} link to this new article.

Just checking in here regarding this approach and article title... while I will start compiling information. Any thoughts or suggestions about the new article and its title?–CaroleHenson (talk) 01:45, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

I just found Civil rights movement in popular culture. Perhaps the title could be Black Lives Matter movement in popular culture.–CaroleHenson (talk) 01:48, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

Help needed over at List of police violence incidents during George Floyd protests

There are some 700+ reported cases of police violence, we need lots of help to find reliable sources for them, if such sources exist. Feoffer (talk) 04:47, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

Feoffer, Is there some way to filter which reported cases are notable? Or, is there a way to group some of them by place and date?

I was thinking that it might be nice to add a column for outcome, particularly for the instances of significant injuries due to excessive force.

If the list could be grouped or filtered, I would be happy to help.–CaroleHenson (talk) 10:54, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

For ones not already included in the article, there's an online spreadsheet[1] , you could sort it by city.

For the ones already in our wikipedia article, you can sort by Location. Feoffer (talk) 03:18, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

Feoffer, Your intention is to add all 700 or so instances?–CaroleHenson (talk) 14:56, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

My hope is to include all the incidents that merited coverage in reliable sources. But many of the "numbered" incidents don't merit inclusion. Feoffer (talk) 19:25, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

Gotcha. I'll work on it tonight.–CaroleHenson (talk) 20:14, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

Social network analysis and BLM

The primary BLM "hub" describes itself as a "Global Network". I believe that BLM is a social network and that social network analysis can be used to analyze and describe BLM.

The first paragraph of the article about BLM might be revised to read:

Black Lives Matter (BLM) is a global social network. The network is composed of individuals and organizations. Some components of the network are affiliated with a Delaware corporation named Black Lives Matter Global Network Foundation, Inc. That corporation refers to its affiliates as "chapters".

Scott Gregory Beach (talk) 15:31, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

WP:No original research. Also, we're not here to promote a foundation that's exploiting the movement (not a "social network"). Ian.thomson (talk) 22:39, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

Ian, are you confusing the California corporation named "Black Lives Matter Foundation" with the Delaware corporation named "Black Lives Matter Global Network Foundation, Inc."? According to BLMGNF,Inc., Black Lives Matter Foundation is not affiliated with BLMGNF,Inc. Scott Gregory Beach (talk) 23:00, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 June 2020

Definition is blatantly false. BLM is not a peaceful or non violent protest group by any definition. Looting and rioting is not peaceful! Please correct the definition. 198.45.162.49 (talk) 21:52, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

This is not a legitimate request per WP:ER. Lester Mobley (talk) 22:21, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

Cops are called peace officers even though kneeling on someone's neck for over eight minutes, shooting someone with a malfunctioning brakelight in the back, [redacted] shooting a jogger in the back, shooting a man in his home because the cop couldn't remember where she lived, and shooting a sleeping woman because the police had the wrong house by ten miles are all pretty much the opposite of peaceful. Ian.thomson (talk) 22:50, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

Black Lives Matter (social movement)

According to Wikipedia, "A social movement is a loosely organized effort by a large group of people to achieve a particular goal, typically a social or political one".

The title of the Wikipedia article about "Black Lives Matter" should be changed to "Black Lives Matter (social movement)". Then, within that article, the organizations participating in the movement can be identified and described. This structure will help readers to understand that "Black Lives Matter" is a social movement (not an organization) and that many different organization are participating in the movement. Scott Gregory Beach (talk) 23:59, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

The addition of a parenthetical, like "(social movement)", is used to disambiguate a name or title from other uses. I am not aware of another use of Black Lives Matter and there isn't another article titled Black Lives Matter, so why disambiguate?–CaroleHenson (talk) 00:37, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

Carole: There are about two dozen organizations that use the words "Black Lives Matter" in their names. For example, "Black Lives Matter Vancouver".

When people see "Black Lives Matter" they sometimes assume that "Black Lives Matter" is an abbreviated version of an organization's name. For example, they might assume that "Black Lives Matter" is an abbreviation of the legal name "Black Lives Matter Global Network Foundation, Inc."

The Wikipedia article about Black Lives Matter should clearly and carefully distinguish between Black Lives Matter (the social movement) and the organizations that participate in that movement.

Scott Gregory Beach (talk) 01:53, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

Scott, I am not quite understanding your point. The social media hashtag #BlackLives Matter led to the movement and legal entity / foundation. And chapters were formed, such as Black Lives Matter Vancouver.

Just out of curiosity, aside from the location based names, like Black Lives Matter Vancouver, what do you anticipate would be the topic of the article "Black Lives Matter" if this article was moved to "Black Lives Matter (social movement)"?

In other words, what is the most common use of "Black Lives Matter" that should be differentiated (disambiguated) from "Black Lives Matter (social movement)"?–CaroleHenson (talk) 03:15, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

Added "not quite" above.–CaroleHenson (talk) 03:35, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

If you are suggesting two articles:

The article could be split into one article about the social movement that excludes the information specific to the Black Lives Matter organization / foundation and its chapters, which would have its own article.

In that case, I would think that the social movement should probably be the main article (what most people think of as BLM) and the formal organization and chapters should likely be disambiguated, such as "Black Lives Matter (organization)" or "Black Lives Matter (foundation)".

I assume that the article about the organization would be a relatively short article about the actual founding of the organizations, its leaders, and its chapters, with most of the information in the movement article + a bit of cross-reference information and links to the other article.

If you think that this should be broken into two articles, the process is to post the {{Split}} template on the article and explain what you think that the content should be in each article for discussion.

If you are saying that the information specifically about the foundation and its chapters should have its own section (which sounds like you are saying), that would be pretty easy to do, but there would be no need to rename the article "Black Lives Matter (social movement)", right?–CaroleHenson (talk) 10:43, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

Carole: Searching the United States "Trademark Electronic Search System" for the words "Black Lives Matter" yields a list that includes 28 records. One of those records has the "Serial Number 88958933" The record shows that the owner is "Fisher, Haig INDIVIDUAL UNITED STATES 315 Meigs Rd. #A-281 Santa Barbara CALIFORNIA 93109". The "Goods and Services" section of the record reads "IC 035. US 100 101 102. G & S: Political party services, namely, promoting the interests of a political organization; Providing a website featuring information about political issues; Providing information regarding political issues, knowing how to vote and knowing how to register to vote; Providing information, news, and commentary in the field of politics".

At this point, I believe that there is no person or organization that has the exclusive right to use the name "Black Lives Matter".

Yes, "The social media hashtag #BlackLivesMatter led to the movement and legal entity / foundation". But there is not just one legal entity that uses "Black Lives Matter" in its name. There are 4 Delaware corporations and 3 California corporations that have the words "Black Lives Matter" in their names and probably many more in other states and provinces and other jurisdictions.

Throughout this article, I am only seeing Black Lives Matter mentioned for the social movement and the global network foundation. (And, of course, there are chapters that contain the name Black Lives Matter + the city.) Article titles for pages that would otherwise have the same name are: given the non-disambiguated name to the most common usage (See WP:PRIMARYTOPIC discussion of usage) and a disambiguated name for other uses. I suppose a Black Lives Matter (disambiguation) page could be created with Black Lives Matter, Black Lives Matter (global organization) (or other disambig name) and whatever uses that you found that might justify its own article in the future. Plus, have an {{Other uses}} template at the top of the BLM articles.–CaroleHenson (talk) 16:45, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

The article currently reads, in part: An organization known simply as "Black Lives Matter" exists as a decentralized network with over 30 chapters worldwide". That statement is not true. The corporation named "Black Lives Matter Global Network Foundation, Inc." has a website and numerous "chapters". That corporation may sometimes use "Black Lives Matter" as an abbreviation of its full, legal name but that usage not does legally change its name to "simply" Black Lives Matter. To legally change its name it would have to adopt and file an amendment to its articles of incorporation.

It says "known simply as" - Black Lives Matter is used throughout the BLM website. I think it would be good, though, to state the full foundation name.–CaroleHenson (talk) 16:45, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

 Done with this diff. Please feel free to edit the note, etc.–CaroleHenson (talk) 17:24, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

Adding "(social movement)" to the title of the article would not be necessary if the first paragraph of the article defined Black Lives Matter as a "social movement" and states that many organizations use the words "Black Lives Matter" in their full names.

Scott Gregory Beach (talk) 14:33, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

The article would not need to say that many organizations use the words "Black Lives Matter". Wikipedia is not a directory. It would be good to have a section about the organization and chapters with the full / legal name.–CaroleHenson (talk) 16:45, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

Carole: States have laws that regulate the names of corporations. In general, a corporation's name cannot include the word "bank" or "trust" unless a state regulatory agency gives a proposed corporation permission use those words. And some states require that a corporation's name shall identify the corporation as a corporation by including the words "corporation" or "incorporated" or "inc" or "corp", etc. I do not know what Delaware's corporation naming laws provide but I would not presume the it is acceptable to delete "Foundation, Inc." from the name of the largest social movement organization in the Black Lives Matters social movement. Scott Gregory Beach (talk) 19:12, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

Scott Gregory Beach, Please feel free to change it to what you believe it should be, but I think that you'll need another source. I used a page on the BLM website for the citation. In addition, I think the Black Lives Matter Global Network Foundation is another entity that provides grants for local BLM efforts. I believe it is also sometime called Black Lives Matter Foundation, but I am not sure that they are exactly the same. It sounds like you might have a good handle on this, though.–CaroleHenson (talk) 19:44, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

Statistics

I think it could be helpful to include some statistics that give more context on the issue of police violence toward black people in the U.S. Would it be best to include these in the Criticism section, or somewhere else? For example, according to an article in the Wall Street Journal: "In 2019 police officers fatally shot 1,004 people, most of whom were armed or otherwise dangerous. African-Americans were about a quarter of those killed by cops last year (235), a ratio that has remained stable since 2015. That share of black victims is less than what the black crime rate would predict, since police shootings are a function of how often officers encounter armed and violent suspects. In 2018, the latest year for which such data have been published, African-Americans made up 53% of known homicide offenders in the U.S. and commit about 60% of robberies, though they are 13% of the population....The police fatally shot nine unarmed blacks and 19 unarmed whites in 2019, according to a Washington Post database, down from 38 and 32, respectively, in 2015. " Stonkaments (talk) 05:20, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

References

Stonkaments, I see that no one has commented yet, so I'll jump in. I think statistics would be helpful, perhaps statistics could be taken from the perspective of police excessive force statistics, particularly where there was no crime or a very minor crime (i.e., if they were carrying a gun, a threat to police, etc. that might not be considered excessive force). There looks to be some sources from the query that I added, like one by the Bureau of Justice Statistics.

The section could be called something like "Police use of excessive force". What do you think?–CaroleHenson (talk) 20:07, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

White Lives Matter

I propose that section be split into a separate page called "White Lives Matter", to be focused separately on hate group. The content of the current page seems off-topic and these sections are large enough to make their own page. --ZmeytheDragon16 (talk) 13:02, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

Does it need to be split, or could a new, fuller article called White Lives Matter be created, such as the way All Lives Matter and Blue Lives Matter are handled in the Black Lives Matter#Counter-slogans and movements section (i.e., keep the section, add a {{main}} template?–CaroleHenson (talk) 18:21, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

ZmeytheDragon16, White Lives Matter isn't really a significant topic. It was/is a small counter-response to Black Lives Matter. There aren't really enough significant events on it that would make a separate article appropriate. The current section of it here is 3 lines long. You can prove me wrong by expanding it here and then you'll have a better case for a split imo. Right now, I suspect it would just be a pointless stub. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 19:33, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

Good point. Another option is to expand the Nationalist Front (United States) that discusses the White Lives Matter rally and send the redirect to that page.–CaroleHenson (talk) 19:50, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

Black people vs African-American in the context of this being an international / global movement

Hi fellow editors. The article refers in a number of places — including in the infobox and articles such as this one — to BLM being internaional / global. That being the case, should the term "African-American" not be replaced by a term applicable to black people in other regions, such as Western Europe, where they experience similar police brutality? Rui ''Gabriel'' Correia (talk) 08:26, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

New introductory paragraph

I have drafted a new introductory paragraph for the BLM article. Please note that my draft defines BLM as a "social movement" and that it refers to BLM organizations as "social movement organizations".

Black Lives Matter (BLM) is a social movement. The primary goal of the movement is to stop unjust killings by police officers. The members of the BLM movement publicly protest against alleged acts of police brutality on Afro-American people and they sometimes block public roadways as a means of drawing attention to their protests. The members of the movement have established several social movement organizations, including Black Lives Matter Sacramento, Black Lives Matter Vancouver Wa, Black Lives Matter Global Network, Inc. and many others.

Scott Gregory Beach (talk) 17:00, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

References

Why is this preferable over the current opening paragraph? Snooganssnoogans (talk) 17:11, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

Snoogans... The current introductory paragraph reads, in part, An organization known simply as "Black Lives Matter"[a] exists as a decentralized network with over 30 chapters worldwide..."

The blacklivesmatter.com website includes a page that lists 16 chapters, not 30 chapters. The "Fund the Movement" page of the website states that "Your contribution will benefit Black Lives Matter Global Network". So it appears to me that the owner of the website is not named "simply" Black Lives Matter.

The "About" page of the website reads, "#BlackLivesMatter was founded in 2013". The coining of a hashtag does not establish a corporation named simply "Black Lives Matter" or anything else.

The "About" page also makes reference to "Black Lives Matter Foundation, Inc". Maybe there is a Texas or Alaska or Oregon corporation with that name, or maybe the reference to "Black Lives Matter Foundation, Inc" is a bungled effort to state the name of the Delaware corporation named "Black Lives Matter Global Network, Inc." or the Delaware corporation named "Black Lives Matter Global Network Foundation, Inc."

The errors and ambiguities in the BLM website should not be imported into Wikipedia. It is very important to find out what exists and what is just an error. I hope that my draft introductory paragraph does not include any errors or ambiguities.

It might be the case that Black Lives Matters Global Network, Inc. has published a fictitious business name statement to inform the public that it is conducting its business under the fictitious name "Black Lives Matter". If such a statement has been published, that statement should be referenced in the article so that the reader understands that the corporation is conducting its activities under a name that is not its legal name (as stated in the corporation's articles of incorporation).

Let's work together to remove the mistakes and confusion from the BLM article.

Scott Gregory Beach (talk) 18:23, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

I added information about the BLM organizations to the note about the organization's name here, based upon information at the BLM website. I am still a bit confused about the difference between Black Lives Matter Foundation, Black Lives Matter Global Network, and Black Lives Matter Global Network Foundation (all of which may more legally correctly also include "Inc.") - but I just put in the info that is on the website. If someone can help straighten this out, it might be better to have this in the body of the article - perhaps with its own section within the Black Lives Matter#Structure and organization section.–CaroleHenson (talk) 01:14, 21 June 2020 (UTC) I would be happy to write that section if someone can help me sort out the organization's names and purposes.–CaroleHenson (talk) 01:17, 21 June 2020 (UTC) Updated diff.–CaroleHenson (talk) 02:02, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

Influence Watch information about BLMGNF is a bit helpful, makes it seem as if Black Lives Matter Global Network is shorthand for BLMGNF, but also creates some confusion for me about Black Lives Matter Foundation, Inc.–CaroleHenson (talk) 03:07, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

"dedicated to non-violence"

Cite the source Dudemanyeah (talk) 21:52, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

Dudemanyeah, Based upon the cited source, I changed "dedicated" to "favoring". There may be a better word, but it's at least more in synch with the source now.–CaroleHenson (talk) 01:23, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 June 2020

BLM founder Patrisse Cullors said they (the other co-founders) are Marxist trained and supportive of the communist movement in the United States in interview, there by causing the alt right to seize upon and try to discredit and delegitimize the BLM’s goals.

Source

Patrisse Cullors on video interview 2015 stated the following: “ Myself and Alicia in particular are trained organizers. We are trained Marxists. We are super-versed on, sort of, ideological theories.” 108.45.159.112 (talk) 18:55, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

I did a query on this and I am not finding reliable sources for this. It is not mentioned on her personal website or the Black Lives Matter website.–CaroleHenson (talk) 20:20, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 June 2020

Black Lives Matter have frequently and publicly called for violence recently. To suggest they are nonviolent is a flat lie and clear bias 71.215.128.35 (talk) 14:32, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. — Tartan357  ^(Talk) 14:54, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 24 June 2020

Hi, the beginning sentence of this page is very misleading. It states, “Black Lives Matter (BLM) is an organized movement advocating for non-violent civil disobedience...”. Recent current events prove this movement is violent. They support arson, shooting, arming citizens with AR-15’s, not allowing emergency personnel to help injured citizens and destroying public property. These recent examples show the first sentence should be changed to, “Black Lives Matter (BLM) is an organized movement advocating for violent civil disobedience...”. 96.244.241.127 (talk) 01:23, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

• Hmm yeah, no, that's not true, and you have no reliable secondary sources for that, and we're not going to use Wikipedia as a forum where people can spread lies. Drmies (talk) 01:24, 24 June 2020 (UTC)