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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Merbabu (talk | contribs) at 09:24, 28 June 2020 (→Undue weight on criticism: culled). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.


removal

Removed unnecessary info. This fact pertains to the High Court page and can be found there. It is merely clutter on this page. AntonioBu 10:17, 15 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

If this is the style you desire then please edit every Australian court article to reflect this. For example Citizen J of the x court the x highest court in the Australian hierarchy. AntonioBu 12:55, 15 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Garfield Barwick Address

It's absurd that the largest section deals with a function that Heydon didn't even attend.--Jack Upland (talk) 10:37, 17 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Correct. Current text needs to go almost in its entirety. Ozhistory (talk) 05:45, 18 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
See WP:NOTPAPER. The length doesn't matter. -- Callinus (talk) 07:43, 18 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
See WP:NOTNEWS.--Jack Upland (talk) 07:55, 18 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
It's a bit tighter now; but still needs more editing, if anyone is keen. Rangasyd (talk) 11:14, 28 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I think we should probably wait till the situation is resolved.--Jack Upland (talk) 06:27, 29 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Or should I say "died down", one way or the other. All we need here is a few sentences, which say he was accused of bias, he didn't stand down, and then the result of any appeal, etc.--Jack Upland (talk) 10:49, 31 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
All the section needs to say is: 1. He agreed to speak at a Liberal Party function. 2. He then decided not to speak, saying he hadn't realised it was a Liberal Party function. 3. He said that he couldn't use a computer and access his emails himself, which led to much comment. [Not currently in article]. 4. The unions asked him to recuse himself for bias. 5. He said no. 6. The unions didn't appeal. [Not currently in article]. The article current devotes excessively length to this issue and goes into intricate trivial detail, but still manages to miss or mangle the main points.--Jack Upland (talk) 08:58, 27 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Heydon v NRMA

Heydon v NRMA is the leading legal precedent in Australia on professional negligence, but I can't find a source which says that.--Jack Upland (talk) 09:24, 30 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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Inquiry

Just an obseration it may not be accurate to describe the latest matter as a finding of the High Court. It is certainly an inquiry by an independent consultant probably commissioned by the Chief Justice in role of employer, but not from a matter decided from a proceeding before the Justices of the High Court. POakleaf (talk) 08:33, 22 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Yes: been fixed. Errantius (talk) 14:17, 22 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
What do you have in mind? Errantius (talk) 09:04, 23 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Um, removing the direct quotations...--Jack Upland (talk) 09:35, 23 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
That is unconstructive, IMHO. Errantius (talk) 11:35, 23 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
See MOS:QUOTE. Quotations are being overused here. All we need is a summary of what was said.--Jack Upland (talk) 01:57, 24 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
See also, for more detail, WP:QUOTEFARM. Quotations, even at length, are appropriate when the original words are very important, as I think they are here. Errantius (talk) 05:15, 24 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I disagree. Some quoting here could be justified, but not to this extent. It is repetitive, verbose, and unencyclopedic. We should summarise what happened. Quoting from the Herald is ridiculous. It's like a bad student essay.--Jack Upland (talk) 07:44, 25 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Given that WP:BLP is very important here (as is the risk of editors who are subject to Australian libel laws ending up in trouble if they summarise things incorrectly), quotes are appropriate where there's a need to be precise with what the sources say. I don't think that the level of quoting is excessive. Nick-D (talk) 08:25, 25 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you, Nick-D. I have been acutely conscious of that. One should also bear in mind that the Sydney Morning Herald is both reporting on the High Court investigation and reporting its own investigation. I have drawn a line between report and comment by not including the criticisms of Heydon's defence argument by former sex discrimination commissioner Pru Goward. Maybe this will become such a #MeToo moment that some of its material should be moved elsewhere, but at fhe moment the story is geared to Heydon. Errantius (talk) 11:53, 25 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
If you are scared of being sued, then just don't edit.--Jack Upland (talk) 20:34, 25 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The point is, to avoid defamation. Errantius (talk) 23:24, 25 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Quoting doesn't avoid defamation.--Jack Upland (talk) 09:33, 26 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Of course, but let's both move on. Errantius (talk) 11:09, 26 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
No, the style used is unacceptable on so many levels.--Jack Upland (talk) 11:38, 26 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Undue weight on criticism

The article is currently dominated by the issue of the Garfield Barwick Address (which he didn't attend) and the issue of sexual harassment. I am not saying that we shouldn't give a full airing to all the criticism of Heydon, but this is excessive. The article is completely unbalanced. It describes his life up to the age of around 57 as his "Early life" (???). There are only three short paragraphs on his judicial career. There are then four paragraphs on the Royal Commission (which took less than two years). Then there are nine paragraphs on the Address he didn't attend. Now there are 11 paragraphs (and counting) on sexual harassment.--Jack Upland (talk) 07:55, 25 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Both those issues were very prominent. The solution would be to add material on his judicial career. Nick-D (talk) 08:23, 25 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
There is a high level of trivial detail, particularly about the Address, which ended up amounting to very little.--Jack Upland (talk) 20:38, 25 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
But, a Justice of the High Court with a history of harassment is indeed "weighty", and should always be a key part of the article. As for appropriate length, there is work to be done. For example, the lead has a specific date to the day. Too specific, but the matter should still be in the lead. Good writing can provide due weight concisely.
And as Nick-D points out, part of the problem may indeed be lack of info on other aspects of his career. --Merbabu (talk) 01:52, 27 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
No one has said that sexual harassment wasn't important, so that is simply a straw-man. I don't see how you can suggest there is a "lack of info on other aspects of his career". He is one of the most prominent lawyers in Australia.--Jack Upland (talk) 08:48, 27 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I meant, as I assume Nick did, there is lack of info in this article on his career. it would be good to get rid of the boiler plate template given the hits this page is getting. Makes wikipedia look silly. Why don't you get in there and trim the section down? --Merbabu (talk) 09:20, 27 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
As for strawman, no-one said you said it was unimportant. --Merbabu (talk) 09:21, 27 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
And that's the definition of a straw-man.--Jack Upland (talk) 09:30, 27 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Jack Upland's comment. The article as it is today is seriously unbalanced. The subject of the article is a son of a significant public servant, and was a very influential academic, textbook writer and editor, barrister, and NSW judge before he was even appointed to the High Court. There is a good article in today's SMH giving a detailed account of the subject's life, including his life prior to that appointment. It includes information that should be added to this article to make it more accurate and complete, eg that the subject attended "... seven schools overall, in Canberra, London, Rio de Janeiro and Wellington, before eventually returning to Sydney, where he boarded at the upper-crust Anglican Shore School while his father served as High Commissioner in India." Here is the link, which is behind a paywall but accessible to people who do not frequently read online SMH articles. (I do not plan to edit the article myself, because I am a lawyer and have always avoided editing articles about the law or lawyers.) Bahnfrend (talk) 13:27, 27 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Culled

So, I went in a consolidated/summarised a lot of the stuff. And i removed the daily running sheet style of "So and so said they would, or that this should happen". Total cull to about 25% of what it was. It still has it's own section (which is appropriate) but it's about 8% of total article length. It will inevitably be added to as the issue plays out over the following months. I don't suggest it's perfect...needs some refinement but it's a start. Sometimes it's better to just get in and have a go, rather than slapping on an ugly tag (remember, main space is for readers, not editors), and creating a talk page section so long that is an undue weight problem itself. --Merbabu (talk) 09:24, 28 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I have separated and expanded the material in the former paragraph on Heydon's "legal scholarship"—quoting from his most recent book some self-assessing material that marks a "black letter" perspective. However, I am concerned that this may not be representative of deeper thinking that may be evident elsewhere, not only in the early book on restraint of trade (going by the publisher's description) but also particularly in journal articles. Heydon's fields of legal research and my own appear to have nothing in common, so I am not able to pursue this concern myself—that is, to find what others in those fields have said about his work. I think it would be very useful to be able to indicate from sources the perspectival relationship between his publications and his judgements. Just calling him "black letter" or "conservative" as to either would seem plainly insufficient. Errantius (talk) 12:07, 27 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Since writing that, I have noticed that WWGB removed the quotation, with the comment "bizarre quote, why are we publishing a sales pitch for Heydon's book?" I have now restored the quotation, since, if what it says is representative of Heydon's perspective, it demonstrates that he has a perspective that is remarkably limited. To many if not most legal academics, I think, as a sales pitch this passage would be disastrous. Errantius (talk) 12:30, 27 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
And I have removed it again. The book preface is a primary source, written by the subject of the article, and does not meet a standard of reliability. It is up to others to determine "Heydon's perspective". WWGB (talk) 12:39, 27 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I see that you have not removed it, but have tagged it as excessively long. I think it is plainly there not for any value of his own opinion of his work but as evidence of his perspective, supporting the characterisation that precedes it—and evidence of his perspective is important for reasons I have discussed above. Maybe alternative evidence of his perspective can be found, as I have suggested above. Let's see what others think. Errantius (talk) 15:47, 27 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I did remove it (twice [1][2]) but you restored it each time [3][4]. I refuse to edit war with you. You should observe WP:STATUSQUO and omit the disputed content until the matter is resolved. I await the opinion of others. WWGB (talk) 01:14, 28 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see that quotation reveals anything much. More revealing is his comment about the giant rat of Sumatra.--Jack Upland (talk) 00:27, 28 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Women on the High Court

There was some disapproval of the appointment, however, as Heydon replaced the only female justice at the time, Mary Gaudron. The court was then all-male (for the first time since 1987) until the appointment of Susan Crennan in November 2005.

I don't think this is really about Heydon. Gaudron was the first woman on the High Court. When she retired, there was a gap of less than three years when there were no women on the court. Now there are three women on the court, including the Chief Justice. John Howard appointed four men to the court before appointing two women. There is no logical reason why Gaudron needed to be replaced by a woman, or why the appointment of Heydon represented a decisive step against female appointments. In fact, there has been a fairly steady increase in women judges on the court. None before 1987. 1 in 1987. 2 in 2007. 3 now. Sure, you can say that appointment of women came too slow, but that's really nothing to do with Heydon.--Jack Upland (talk) 09:04, 28 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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