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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 100.4.147.164 (talk) at 12:09, 5 July 2020 (→originated by vs. influenced by...). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

@Billinghurst could you explain me why the link I add a bout a gyspy jazz method (http://guitarejazzmanouche.com/en_wiki/index.php/Category:Gypsy_Jazz_Method) is more commercial than truefire.com a online shop for online lessons or even djangopedia which contains more Adsense than mine? Thanks for explanation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.205.253.177 (talk) 13:41, 31 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]


Untitled

Shouldn't Django's name be listed as Jean-Baptiste? It is not like in English where the name is separated, rather it is common French name, like Jean-Pierre, Jean-Jacques, Jean-Luc, etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.194.65.196 (talk) 20:21, 8 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Django's name wasn't Jean-Baptiste, that is a persisent false rumour, which

has been discussed extensively on the Django Reinhardt page 1Z (talk) 16:17, 5 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I tried to add some sourcing and tone down a few things.--T. Anthony 03:51, 13 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

As I understand all this article needs now are links? RomanyChaj

Sources for the "Techniques" section

I see that the user Conical Johnson added the "Original research" tag for the "Techniques" section. Can somebody bring some sources for it, as I know myself that most of the infos are true? Also, something on the special vibrato that they use would be good (with a source of course:) ). Kenshin (talk) 11:51, 12 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that this section is accurate and not OR. I could add some refs from Romane's book.1Z (talk) 09:58, 13 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I have removed a dubious claim about "gypsybilly" and contacted user:Conical Johnson. 1Z (talk) 08:13, 25 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

As I'm sure you guys all know, the OR tag has nothing to do with the veracity of the material. You aren't allowed to write things just because you know them to be true. You must have an independent source that verifies it. The way this section is written sounds to me like a guitarist discussing techniques with which he is personally familiar, even to the extent that he uses them himself in gypsy jazz music. Therefore he knows it to be true. And yet, it is (in the hypothetical case I mention) original research. As with any unsourced content on WP, add some sources. Conical Johnson (talk) 09:30, 25 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Finding sources for doubtful text is much more importan tthan finding sources for information that is probably correct. Most of WP is unsourced.
I think the books in the "References and further reading" section generally support eveything in "techniques". Are in-line citations required? They would be possible, but time-consuming. 1Z (talk) 10:48, 25 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Whatever else is going on in Wikipedia is irrelevent. You believe this text to be "probably correct", but anyone who didn't write it has no idea. In this way this article is precisely the same to me as pages with "doubtful text" are to you. Whoever wrote that doubtful text believes it to be "probably correct" just as you believe your own writing to be. Conical Johnson (talk) 20:11, 25 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]


There is much outright crap on WP, fixing that is much more of a priority than finding chapter and verse for sensible and uncontentious comment. 1Z (talk) 08:22, 26 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Come on man, do you really not understand what I'm saying here? "Outright crap" is in the eye of the beholder. That's why we have sources - to remove judgement calls of what's true or not.
Now, with that said, it's not like I'm deleting material here. I put the OR tag up there months ago, and it still applies. If you want to just leave it like that forever, you can. I don't have these books and I'm not going to do the research. All you have to do is cite the book at the end of the paragraph, most people don't bother to cite pages. You could even make some stuff up and cite it all to the book. Who's gonna know? Add some refs if you want the tag gone. Conical Johnson (talk) 09:28, 26 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I have cited severeal books at the end of the article. 1Z (talk) 16:24, 26 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I have to say something that is on all too few Wp talk pages: This is an absolutely fantastic article and a marvelous source of information, Wp's cavils about sourcing notwithstanding. -- Craig Goodrich 68.58.132.176 (talk) 08:01, 8 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

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Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 3 external links on Gypsy jazz. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add {{cbignore}} after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}} to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:

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wtf.

All these uses of Gypsy, yet not a single pointer to Romani people? (FWIW, my granddad was Rom, and we take pride in being "of Gypsy blood," so I hope nobody goes all PC on this article just for that reason.)
Weeb Dingle (talk) 17:15, 30 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The words Gypsy, Manouche, and Romani are all in the lead section and are now wikilinked. Tony 1212 (talk) 23:02, 10 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Need for "History" section

In my opinion this article badly needs a "History" section: compare for example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jazz#History. I am happy to create one if no-one thinks this is a bad idea... Cheers Tony 1212 (talk) 23:05, 10 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

OK, new section added, see what you think... Tony 1212 (talk) 05:59, 23 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 20:25, 26 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, I've added an image gallery and populated it with a subset of relevant images from Wikimedia Commons. Perhaps more can be added over time, as new ones appear there. If anyone wishes to add to or alter my selection, feel free. Cheers Tony Tony 1212 (talk) 19:38, 14 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Please read our policy WP:GALLERY In particular ' Wikipedia is not an image repository. A gallery is not a tool to shoehorn images into an article, and a gallery consisting of an indiscriminate collection of images of the article subject should generally either be improved in accordance with the below paragraphs or moved to Wikimedia Commons. Generally, a gallery should not be added so long as there is space for images to be effectively presented adjacent to text.' Please remove the gallery.Best wishes.SovalValtos (talk) 21:55, 24 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I removed the section per Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Music#Lists which says "Music genre articles should not contain lists of performers." An image gallery is functionally the same as a list of performers.
The best way to incorporate images is to put them near associated text in the article body, so that the image shows notable and important points of the topic. But we also cannot clog the article with images, crowding the text and making it too hard to read. Binksternet (talk) 22:13, 24 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The full quoted paragraph reads: "Music genre articles should not contain lists of performers. A separate list page may be created." So maybe this gallery would be appropriate for such a list page, which does not presently exist. I note User:SovalValtos is also selective with quoting RE style; the full paragraph includes the statement "A gallery section may be appropriate in some Wikipedia articles if a collection of images can illustrate aspects of a subject that cannot be easily or adequately described by text or individual images ... See Women's suffrage in New Zealand for an example of an informative and well-crafted gallery." Regards - Tony Tony 1212 (talk) 22:21, 24 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
There is certainly room on Wikipedia for an article titled List of gypsy jazz artists, within which a handful of images would most likely fit. Binksternet (talk) 23:21, 24 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with your proposal, and may create such a page if someone else does not get there first (a few other things to do as well :)... Cheers Tony Tony 1212 (talk) 05:43, 25 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Discographical items - yes or no...

Hi all, I am thinking that it would be nice to list a few "overview" discographical items (compilations) that deal with the genre as a whole, as opposed to LPs/CDs by individual artists, in a "discography", or "listening" section. I can find no guidance on whether this is preferred for genre articles, under e.g https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Music#Discographies; other examples (Blues, Bluegrass music), however do not seem to do this. Thoughts, anyone? Regards - Tony Tony 1212 (talk) 06:46, 28 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps a section labelled "Anthologies"? Tony 1212 (talk) 18:56, 28 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Here is an example of what I have in mind:

[Section header] "Anthologies", or "Recordings", or "Selected recommended listening", or...

  • Jazz Gitan 1939-1943. Jazz Archives no. 144, 1999. Single-disc compilation with Django Reinhardt, the Ferret brothers, André Ekyan et son Orchestre.
  • Gipsy Jazz School - Django's Legacy. Iris Music, 2002. 2-disc compilation, also including rare tracks by the generation that immediately followed Django, playing electric guitars, etc.; includes accompanying extensive (101 page) booklet.
  • Gypsy Jazz. Properbox, 2007. 4-CD set including many obscure tracks by Reinhardt and contemporary ensembles in other European countries, also some by Reinhardt's contemporary in pre-war Paris, the Argentinian guitarist Oscar Alemán; includes accompanying 31 page booklet.
  • Nothing But Django. Le Chant du Monde, 2008. 3-CD set covering "current generation" followers of Django including Boulou & Elios Ferré, Raphaël Faÿs, Biréli Lagrène and many others; includes accompanying 27 page booklet.
  • Le Coffret Jazz Manouche. Wgram Music, 2011. 5-CD set (including one disc of historic Reinhardt selections), remainder largely recent recordings by a wide and representative selection of new Gypsy Jazz players, with brief artist and title information only.
  • Gypsy Jazz: The Authentic Sound of Parisian Street Jazz. Not Now Music, 2015. Budget price 2-CD set featuring many of Reinhardt's contemporaries including in settings with accordionists such as Gus Viseur, Jo Privat, etc.

...plus any recent compilations/reissues of historic recordings by the original Quintette du Hot Club de France.

On film:

  • The Django Legacy, also released as Gypsy guitar : The legacy of Django Reinhardt. Dir. John Jeremy, 1991 (available on VHS tape). 60 minute made-for-TV film narrated by Sacha Distel with interviews and/or music from Babik Reinhardt, Boulou & Elios Ferré, Jimmy Rosenberg, Stochelo Rosenberg, Gary Potter and more.
Thoughts? Tony 1212 (talk) 00:00, 29 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe but probably not. Wikipedia does not Select recommended listening. Let us see who strongly supports the proposal.SovalValtos (talk) 07:00, 29 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

originated by vs. influenced by...

Anonymous user 100.4.148.101 has twice inserted the phrase "influenced by (Django Reinhardt)" to the lede description of the style, first to replace my wording "developed by", then my replacement text/semi revert "originating from", without justification. I have around 10 texts in front of me that would support stating Django as originator of the style, and you would have to live under a rock to assert anything to the contrary. What is best to be done here? Regards Tony Tony 1212 (talk) 22:03, 29 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

We can put the article under protection if disruption continues.
I would be interested to see the IP's source for someone who established gypsy jazz before Django. If there's somebody earlier, I'm open to reading about it. Doubtful, though. Binksternet (talk) 22:31, 29 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

No—it was invented much later, rather than earlier. If you can find a source of information published before Django Reinhardt died in 1953 which refers to him playing "gypsy jazz" or "jazz manouche" please share it.

Thanks, Binksternet. Re the suggestion that Django may not have invented/originated/originated developed the style, well, who was there? Eddie Lang and Baro Ferret. But Baro was not playing gypsy jazz at that time (he did later with Django), and Lang's style was very different (no "gypsy" there). Basically I would contend the imputation (that Django "influenced" the genre but it already existed in some manner) is simply spurious.

Why should there be any imperative to trace jazz manouche's origins to the 1930s or earlier? It didn't exist until much later.

It is well documented that Django played in a different style before 1930-32, and he developed the new style after listening to "new" jazz records played for him by Emile Savitry. I could go on but there is no need I am sure :) Best - Tony Tony 1212 (talk) 22:42, 29 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Django Reinhardt did not develop gypsy jazz. It was developed by other musicians many years after he died. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.4.145.216 (talk) 20:12, 4 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That depends whether your concept of "gypsy jazz" includes the 1930s performances and recordings by its originator or not... it appears that you would exclude them and confine use of the term to the music of his followers only. This is not a view adopted by current authors: I quote from Dregni, "Django Reinhardt and the Illustrated History of Gypsy Jazz" as an example: "Gypsy jazz is largely the legacy of one man-and Django remains one of the few musicians in any style of music to create a whole genre as his legacy." (p.8). In other words, he created the genre, even if it did not acquire the name "gypsy jazz" until the 1970s (a point that is mentioned in the article). To imply that the genre did not exist until it was so named, and to exclude its creator, is simply incorrect.Tony 1212 (talk) 21:54, 4 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Also note that the original term was in French - "Jazz Tsigane" - as used by Alain Antonietto in articles, discographies, etc. - to refer to the historic style played by Django and his contemporaries - not specifically his followers (who were few to non-existent in the early 1970s). Tony 1212 (talk) 22:46, 4 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

If you read Michel-Claude Jalard's 1959 article on "Jazz Tsigane" you'll find that it was not at all dealing with gypsy jazz or jazz manouche, which didn't exist at that time. "Jazz Tsigane" was simply jazz played by musicians of Romani origin. It was about the ethnicity (or as Jalard put it, "race") of the musicians, not the style of music they played.

The argument is not that the genre did not exist until it was named as such; the point is that nobody during Django Reinhardt's lifetime—or for some years after his death—considered the music he played (after 1930 or so) to be any genre other than jazz, plain and simple. Dregni is wrong. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.4.147.164 (talk) 00:59, 5 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hello 100.4.147.164, and thanks for engaging here on the "Talk" page; also I am presuming you are contributing in good faith, and may have more suggestions/contributions for the future, in which case I wish you all the best.
Nevertheless according to your definition, a modern individual or group re-creating Django's music note-for-note (or attempting to) is playing gypsy jazz, but Django was not... which I would contend is illogical.

Actually this sort of argument is widespread among philosophers of the arts (see Arthur Danto's The Transfiguration of the Commonplace). A musical genre is not only about abstract sounds; it also involves a cultural context and a means of production (e.g., improvising rather than imitating what somebody else played on a recording a long time ago).

You may as well say that since Chaucer and Shakespeare were not considered "English Literature" at the time they were written, they do not come under that category today. However the article is about the genre of music as understood today, not 80+ years ago.

This last sentence seems to acknowledge candidly that the notion that Django Reinhardt "originated" or "developed" gypsy jazz is a recent invention and to view his music of the 1930s with the QHCF (which was a minority of the music he was playing even during that decade) is an anachronistic fiction.

I'm sorry, merely stating "Dregni is wrong" is not a valid argument.

Of course it's not an argument; it's an accurate statement.

If this page were entitled (say) "gypsy jazz today" or "current performers in the Django style" (or some such title) then I would agree with your suggested wording, but it is about the entire genre, which everybody - apart from you it seems - accepts, starts with Django and the QHCF. So in fact I do not care exactly what wording is in the lede, so long as it conveys that concept: starts with / originates from / originally created by / developed by are all fine. "Influenced by" is not, for the reasons already discussed... You can say that this is my opinion, but I believe it is sufficiently backed up by published sources. By the way my name is Tony, you can check my user page if interested. Regards - Tony 1212 (talk) 01:40, 5 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Whenever I see an argument like this, where a sort of rethinking or historical revision is suggested, I like to go back to the most stable sources, the ones that were around before Wikipedia. It's interesting to look at books published before 2004, because their authors were not influenced by what is too easily found on Wikipedia. One of the books in my search tonight was Tom Dempsey's Classic Jazz Guitar Styles from 1997. Dempsey says on page 10: "The guitarist who most significantly influenced the style, “Gypsy jazz," was Django Reinhardt."[1] This kind of tribute can be found in just about every mention of Django. Binksternet (talk) 03:51, 5 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I think the key is what phrases are / have been used in the same sense of "gypsy jazz" - for example Hot Club style, Django style, etc. - they are all the same thing, meaning the guitar (and small group) style for which Django and the QHCF are the archetype, that everyone tries to reproduce or then build upon. Thus to say that (for example) Django did not play "Django style" guitar is obviously nonsensical.
A quote will suffice, from Ian Cruickshank's "The Guitar Style of Django Reinhardt", 1982 (well before the internet era)... (p.1) "The purpose of this book is to provide some pointers towards the gypsy jazz style as pioneered by Django Reinhardt, and continued to-day by many gypsy guitarists." (My italics). That is exactly it; this WP article exists to describe the genre, its history (starting with Django, also to some extent its pre-Django antecedents), its characteristics, instrumentation, techniques. All of these commence with consideration of Django and the music he created in the 1930s, not just his recent followers. I completely accept that the music by his followers was "influenced by" Django Reinhardt, but his own music was a then brand-new and original synthesis, and influenced only by non-GJ players (in the jazz world, Armstrong, Ellington, etc., plus his non-jazz gypsy antecents).

Django just had a distinctive individual musical voice within the jazz genre—as Django's biographer Patrick Williams has noted, characterizing it as a different style of music (i.e., "gypsy jazz") is as nonsensical as calling Lee Konitz's music "Jewish jazz" or Adrian Rollini's music "Italian jazz" (see Williams, Django Reinhardt, p. 141).

In this page (genre description) we clearly (to my mind) start with Django and go forward from there. Really, to me this is so self-evident that I do not even see why we are prolonging this conversation... Tony 1212 (talk) 04:51, 5 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Well, in terms of gypsy jazz we can start with Django as an influence and inspiration, but not as creator or originator. If you think we "clearly" must accept that Django "created" gypsy jazz, then that view needs to be grounded in an argument that's based on historical truth and reality rather than the assertion that it is "self-evident" or the fact that certain writers such as Dregni have made claims and arguments that may in fact be erroneous.

Gypsy jazz originated around the 1970s and the name didn't become widespread until the 1990s. Today it's musically quite different from the music that Django played in the 1930s with the QHCF. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.4.147.164 (talk) 10:09, 5 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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