Talk:Wallachia

Homeland of the Vlachs

I quote somebody below: "There is a theory stating that the Latin speaking Vlachs actually moved from the Southern Balkans into the present day Wallachian territory.
I find the official Romanian version highly improbable". Further to this statement, I want to point out the obvious Vlach/Romanian, or Balkan Latin, placenames in today's Western Bulgaria, like the town of Vakarel ('vacă' is the Romanian for 'cow', Bulgarian and South Slavic 'krava'), the village of Pasarel 'pasăre' - bird, Bulgarian 'ptica'), the town of Gorna Malina (Upper Malina), misleading is the etymology from the Bulgarian 'malina' - raspberry, the true origin of the name is in the Daco-Moesian word 'mal' meaning 'bank' in Romanian and 'mountain' in Albanian [the same relativity of the words denominating 'bank' and 'hill, mountin' can be seen between Bulgarian 'brjag' (bank) and Serbian 'breg' ('hill')]. There are also phonetic traces of the Balkan Latin, such as the name of the river Džerman lying south of Sofia (the stem 'german' is quite spread and has a Thraco-Daco-Moesian, whatever, Paleobalkan, origin meaning 'hot', e.g. the Roman town of Germanea, today's Ihtiman east of Sofia (by the way, next to Vakarel), also the Albanian word 'zjarr': 'hot'. This river name renders the Romanian (Balkan Latin) palatalization of G into DŽ in front of E and I, in Bulgarian there is no such phonetic change (rather it is very old, dating back to proto-Slavic times and today is simplified into Ž, Romanian sound J). Even the sound DŽ in Bulgarian is new and exclusively found in foreign words. Among Romanian placenames in ex-Yugoslavia I will mention the 'Durmitor' mountain (Dormitorium, a place were sheep rested/slept). My point is that the region starting from Thessaly in Greece, through Epirus, Macedonia, Eastern Serbia, Western Bulgaria and further to the West shows an obvious presence of Romanian or Aromanian language. This is the homeland of the Romanians or Vlachs which is consistent with its natural conditions which are the same as those of the Carpathian mountains and Transilvania. It was not a particular problem for a semi-nomadic people if we refer to the centuries from 3rd to 13th, to cover all these distances with their livestock. I dont think however, that the Vlachs lived exclusively south of the Danube, rather, that the river was not an obstacle and was regularly crossed. It is especially narrow in the region above the Djerdap/Gerdap cascade today. Only after the year 1000 in my opinion did the 'Transdanubian' Vlachs move East and South, probably together around the time of the Cuman invasion and established themselves as an ethnic factor in Eastern Wallachia and Moldova, slowly assimilating the existing (Slavo)Bulgarians, Russians/Ukrainians, Gagauz, Cumans etc, etc, etc.

Regarding the name: Vlach is not a Romanian word, it is not and never was used by the Romanians themselves, it is a Slavic term denomiating any Romance/Latin people or language, let us not forget that by it the Serbs and Bulgarians, and later the Greeks and Russians (*the original Russian form is Voloch), called the Balkan Latin people, today's Romanians, while the Poles use Włochy to refer to Italy, the same with Hungarian Olasz(ország), which is a distorted form coming from the Slavic plural form of Vlach (Proto-Slavic sing. Volchъ, plur. Volsi). 85.11.148.31 14:31, 26 May 2006 (UTC) Not registered, for now

Valahia and Vlahia

Valahia and Vlahia are NOT early names in Romanian of Wallachia. Even in the first ever document in Romanian language (Neacşu, 1521) the name of "Tseara Rumaneasca" is used. See: [1] Bogdan | Talk 19:55, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)

i was thinking of Mircea cel Batran title "Ungro-Vlahia Samodarjet" but it was obviously written in slavonic, while Caloian Asen's title "Imperator Blachorum et Bulgarorum" was obviously written in latin Criztu 22:23, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Mircea cel Bătrân called his country "Ungrovlahia". However there is no mention in the article about this.

I suggest to include in the article this form of the name. I quote:"Eu, Io Mircea mare voievod şi domn singur stăpânitor a toată ţara Ungrovlahiei şi al părţilor de peste munţi, încă şi spre părţile tătăreşti şi herţeg al Amlaşului şi Făgăraşului şi domn al Banatului Severinului şi de amândouă părţile peste toată Podunavia , încă până la Marea cea Mare şi singur stăpânitor al cetăţii Dârstor." Just to be inline with the historical truth.Zmiklos, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Old Bulgarian vs. Old Slavonic

The language used for the official documents of both Wallachia and Moldova until the end of the 17th century was Bulgarian.

i understand Michael the Brave had documents written in romanian ? In 1600 - Criztu 20:52, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I understand it was more like using Bulgarian until the 19th century.

Another Valachia (Czech Republic)

There is another Valachia in the Czech Republic. This Valachia - Valašsko in Czech - lies in the easternmost part of Moravia, on the border with Slovakia. Now it is mostly the ethno-cultural region with its own dialect of Czech language, folkways and quite strong local feelings.

The name comes from migrants walking along the Carpathian range about 400 or 500 years ago. On their way they gradualy lost their original language with exception of some words, but preserving more of their culture and economical customs, namely sheep breeding.

Some links (in Czech): http://www.valassko.cz/, http://valasske-kralovstvi.cz/.

I don't know if it would be better to merge this note into the main article or to start another one about the MoravianValachia (we prefer the simple 'V'). Hm? -- Bob, 2005-09-10 17:48

Well... It would be better to title it Moravian Wallachia and link it from this article. In Romanian, we spell it with "V", too, but in English the more common form is with "W", mainly because the word was borrowed from German. :-)

BTW, There is another Wallachia, in Greece: Great Wallachia. bogdan | ^Talk 16:05, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

Mircea cel Bătrân called his country Ungrovlahia. So it would be factual to name the country as it was named before. The "Ungro" word has been deleted to beautify the history.Zmiklos, 11:06, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Yes, and also "Transalpina", at least that's what he wrote on the coins. A new "Name" section should be added. bogdan 11:44, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Wallachia and the Bulgarian Empires

This is the first time I read on a Romanian page about Wallachia being part of the Bulgarian Empire and I congratulate the author. However, there was no mention of the Second Bulgarian Empire, where Wallachian inclusion and participation was paramount. I have also read that the provinces across the Danube were given authonomy by the Bulgarian King Constantine Tih. Can anyone confirm that?

Also the following statement: "The continuing weakening of the Hungarian state by further Mongol invasions (1285) and internal disputes opened the way for the process of unification of the Romanian political formations independent of the Hungarian kings." is a little too romantic for my taste. Romania was not a word in use before after the Napoleonic Wars. Wallachia, just as Besarabia and Transylvania were either provinces under certain rule or at times semi-autonomous territories because of the lack of such rule. There was no drive, need or idea for a "romanian" unificatinon until someone came up with it in the abovementioned period. (Kaloyan)

It's indeed hazardous to claim a drive in 13th century, but in that sentence it clearly refers to Wallachia and Moldavia as Romanian (I understand this word as an ethnic label here) formations. An awareness of a common identity however existed (though I can't suggest right now a date for its birth). We have Ungrovlachia and Moldovlachia ("et utraque Valachiae") and a significant number of other testimonies for it.

Related to the above, as early as during 16th century, we find attempts of unification of these Romanian political formations. Sigismund Zápolya, through an Italian messenger, claims that he would abandon his rights over Hungary if he could rule over Transylvania and if the Austrian Emperor could help him conquering Dacia by taking Wallachia from Pătraşcu and Moldavia from Alexandru (1566). Gh. Pungă (1999) suggests a political convergence of the three Romanian states after the battle of Mohacs (1526), as an initiative of the protestant Hungarians opposing a Catholic alternative under the suzeranity of Austria. This Hungarian political project has an amazing similarity with the unification from 1600 and the emphasis on the common origin of these people shows that the unification on ethnic criteria was certainly an idea much older than one born in the period you suggested. Daizus 12:48, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, you must try to make a difference between a unification on the basis of a common ethnic ground and the extension of someone's rule. Royal/noble marriages were often the cause of a political union with no other objective than increased power and wealth. The truth is that most states at that time were multi-ethnic.

You're missing the point. The truth is that most states are multi-ethnic. ;) Then and now. Daizus 19:42, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

As far as what you call "an awareness of a common identity" is concerned, you may also want to consider the Vlach element within the First and Second Bulgarian Empires. For it was an inseparable part of both.

I am afraid I don't follow you. What can you tell about the "awareness" of the Vlach element during the Bulgarian empires? What can you tell about the political continuity between your examples and the Wallachia which is subject in this page. ? Daizus 19:42, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Note that the Vlachs, however, they might have thought of themselves, were happy to support the revival of the Bulgarian state. What is more, they didn't opt for a Wallachian or some other trans-Danubian state formation.

I don't know of such a thing. However, considering Balkanic Vlachs and north-Danubian Romanians as being a single population can be misleading in many contexts. Daizus 19:42, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Also, on what grounds do you call Wallachia and Moldova Romanian? As far as I am concerned both provinces kept on using Bulgarian as their official language until sometime the 18th century. What about the titles of their nobles (bolyar, voevoda, etc) and their names (Tihomir, Mircha, Vlad, Stanislav)? What about the Hungarian period or the Cuman rule over Bessarabia?

The majoritarian ethnicity was and is Romanian. Is this a good enough reason? ;)

Is Hungarian a Roman kingdom because the official language was Latin?

The letter of Neacşu is 16th century. Linguistics, toponymy point out that Romanian language existed in the first millenium AD. 18th century is an unrealistic milestone.

The reality might be not as Slavic as you like it to be. Boier (boljári, bolyades) is usually regarded as Turkic, but there are also hypotheses (S. Paliga) that it has an autochtonous origin (boi -> boier as in oi -> oier, also see the Latin evolution pecus - pecunia, herds - wealth / social status). There's no Tihomir in the documents, but a Thocomerius which seems to be a Turkic name (N. Djuvara says it's Cuman, S. Brezeanu says it's Pecheneg). Moreover, Sorin Paliga suggests that there were some borrowings from East Romance languages to neighbouring Early South-Slavic languages (during V-VII centuries).

I agree that there is a significant Slavic cultural influence over north-Danubian Romanic popultions, though. However this doesn't change an ethnicity. Daizus 19:42, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

"Romanian" was NEVER an ethnicity before the creation of the modern Romanian nation-state. You point at occasional written documents or toponyms, which by and in themselves mean nothing. You could find letters in Greek, Bulgarian, German and so on. They could have been left by a merchant or a traveller or simply be written by a person skilled in that particular language for various reasons.Since the Romans ruled over some of these lands it is only logical that some places will retain the nmames the Romans once gave them. The toponyms, however, are predominantly non-Latin. Looking at some map a few months ago, I was surprised to see the amount of Slavic toponyms on the other side of the Danube. Boyars has nothing to do with an "authotctonous origin" as it is well known that it was a title for Bulgar nobles. Unless of course you consider BUlgar nobility to eventually have evolved into authoctonous :)))

One more thing, you will find information on this idea of common identity and continuity in Lucian Boia's "History and Myth in Romanian Consciousness". http://www1.minn.net/~graczar/FTR-208/boia.htm (Kaloyan)

You terribly misunderstood Boia. He does not argue against common identity and continuity in themselves, but against certain historiographical mistakes who were built around these ideas taken as axioms. I issued a 16th century argument considering the common ethnicity of Wallachia, Moldavia and Transylvania recognized and valued as a political pretext for conquest/union. You avoided it and embraced an "anti-Romanian" axiom (your contribution reminds me of those pan-Slavic theories). You're commiting the fallacies Boia identified and warned of. Daizus 19:42, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Funny you should mention the Pan-Slavic theories :) , as I am the last person to embrace them.

It's about what you've said and the way you said it. You cannot annul an ethnicity through a chancelary official language or some excerpts of antroponymy or toponymy. This line of argumentation is to be found among those theorists I mentioned. Daizus 09:47, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

As far as Boia is concerned, one of the main points he makes in regards to our discussion is that "Some of these are the myth of the Romanian people's eternal will for national unity, the myth of the glorious Middle Ages, the myth of Romanians as defenders of Christianity, the myth of the "Romanian continuity" (the uninterrupted habitation of Transylvania by Romanians since Roman times)... " - this is a indirect quote from the book review, just to be sure.

I have read Boia's book (the one reviewed in your link). Unfortunately I don't know if it is translated in English to make a recommendation. If you want to talk about Boia the only way we can do it is on his book, not on the reviews. You have yet to show where and how Boia argues that various hypotheses are false. He does not discuss history but historiographies. If you can't make the difference, there's no point in debating this. Daizus 09:47, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

And Daizus, btw, your use of "Romanian" in this discussion is as uncritical as it can get.

How? And relatively to what? Romanian means a Romanic language speaker from a certain space where we know of certain cultural traits and a certain language evolving through centuries. We know from late Middle Ages accounts testimonies that the inhabitants of these territories (for instance, a diploma given to Nicolae Olahus mentions in 1541 that they come from Rome and inhabited Dacia; above you can see that in the same period the letter of Neacşu mentions Ţeara Rumâneasca) call themselves (after) Romans. Sigismund Zápolya does not aim for Transylvania, Banate and Oltenia (the historical Dacia, after a mainstream opinion anyway), but Transylvania, Moldavia and Wallachia. If there is no common ethnicity, on what other grounds these three provinces are taken together as an entity? I must say again that does not happen in 18-19th centuries, but in 16th century and that the authors are Hungarians not Romanians! Daizus 09:47, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

On the multi-ethnic point (I was obviously referring to the past ONLY) let me add that the notion of Wallachia becomes even more elusive if you: 1.Accept that it was a multi-ethnic entity with a constantly changing content and no unified and overarching state frame to serve as mechnism to mix, assimilate and produce the idea of the "common". The Hungarians, Cumans, Slavs, Uzes, Pechenegs and Tatars had little in common with the "Latin speaking" population. They also invaded and ruled various territories separately.

Ad nauseam. I already issued the criterion of majority and never denied the ethnic diversity. There's no pure ethnic state neither in past nor in present. Daizus 09:47, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

The so-called criterion of majority is fictional. There was not one major ethinc group. The only thing that placed a variety of peoples within a group was a regional (and often changing) name and whom they were subjects to. (Let us exclude religion on this occasion.) Kaloyan* 05:44, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

2.Add the existing incongruence between various medieval writers on what territory the term Wallachia exactly delineates.

Since 14th century Wallachia means approximatively the same space. You're the one bringing Bulgarian Empires into equation failing to justify a political continuity. Daizus 09:47, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Exactly my point. The 14th century is the beginning of the end of the Second Bulgarian empire, which vanishes in the 15th century. There is plenty of confusion surrounding the crusader's chronicles on say the House of Asen and Wallachia.

Also, can someone try to explain why if the Latinised Dacians were direct descendants of the Romans, why didn't they use the readily available Latin alphabet for most of their history?

Who talks about (direct! :o) descendency here? I talk about language, culture and civilization. What alphabet? Do you have any evidence for a Latin education system? And do you have any alternate theory for the origin of Romanian dialects, other than being East Romance languages (i.e. coming out of Latin)? Daizus 09:47, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes I do have a rough theory. Latin language remained one of the many spoken languages in some of these regions. At some point, a Latin speaking elite decides to create a common Latin/Roman myth and hence, an identity for these provinces, under which they can be united. Whenever the modern Romanian state emerges, the official language becomes Latin and the state apparatus uses its many mechanism in order to latinise the rest of the population. In other words, nothing very different to the history of other nation-states. Also, I suspect, there might have been a later migration of Latin speaking Vlachs from Greece that made the percentage of Latin speakers greater at som point. The Hungarian take on Romanian origins is based on a similar argument. I still wonder, however, if there has been a possible second large migration ... What do you think?

I am no expert in this field but I read quite a bit. I am interested in the Bulgarian connection across the Danube. It is neglected by Bulgarian historians and purposefully ignored by their Romanian colleagues for it doesn't fit in the Romanian nationalist myth. I know that eventually Bulgarian rulers lost interest (and control) in the northern territories and concentrated most of their efforts down south.

I am not sure what you mean. If there's no such a "Bulgaro-Romanian" history ignored by both Bulgarian and Romanian historians maybe it doesn't exist? Talking about lost interest is somehow weird. You claim the Bulgarian kings prefered some rocky heights in Balkans over some fertile fields north of Danube? These are the myths, if anything! :D

I also find funny the way you talk about Romanian historiography. One one hand, you're exagerating the Bulgarian political and cultural influences (as the same time minimalizing the incovenient evidences - the Latin character of the language, for instance) promoting a version of Bulgarian nationalism. On the other, from your first intervention in this page I've noticed you are not even acquainted with A. D. Xenopol or Ioan Bogdan, well-known Romanian historians whose works were published about a century ago. What can you possibly tell about Romanian historians or nationalism in Romanian historiography then? Daizus 02:52, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

There is a theory stating that the Latin speaking Vlachs actually moved from the Southern Balkans into the present day Wallachian territory. I find the official Romanian version highly improbable.

Arguments are always heavier than opinions. You can check your probabilities even here on Wikipedia at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_Romanians Daizus 02:52, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Also, I cannot see what can possibly be the common Latin linguistic glue, when as I mentioned there were so many other cultures, ethinc groups and languages. If anything, a Latin speaking group would have been a minority.

That you cannot see a possiblity is not really of my concern, I am not trying to persuade you of anything. Repeating also doesn't do any good, through repetition a claim does not become true. You're welcome to explain the Romanian language and dialects spoken today by about 30 million people. You're welcome to offer new interpretations of the medieval ethnonyms and make estimations to prove whatever ethnicity in minority/majority in whatever cultural and political entities they were part of. If you cannot then your contribution here is basically a troll. Daizus 02:52, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

"Repeating also doesn't do any good, through repetition a claim does not become true." Really? What does the Nazi past tell us about repeating a lie and blow it out of proportions?

I also know that Romanian language has plenty of Bulgarian words, even after its careful latinisation. I would be very interested to see what language (apart rom the alphabet) older Wallachian texts were written in.

But you don't seem to know that Romanian language has even more Latin words. You don't seem to know that Romanian grammar is so not Bulgarian. You don't seem to know that Bulgarian/Slavic words cover certain semantic areas (e.g. ecclestiastic) unlike Latin ones (e.g. agrarian) which are evidences for language's origin and later influences, you don't seem to know that the Latin character of Romanian language is not conditioned by French or Italian loans. Daizus

Btw, what did you mean by "political continuity"? Where did I fail to justify what?

You were arguing about Wallachia as a state. You were trying to relate it to Bulgarian Empires, you were trying to minimize the role of an own ethnicity. These are just claims, not arguments. Daizus 02:52, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Talking about lost interest is somehow weird. You claim the Bulgarian kings prefered some rocky heights in Balkans over some fertile fields north of Danube? Yes I do. Notice how I placed "lost interest" and "control" next to each other as this is not a discussion I want to get into right now. There were constant invasions and migrations from the North - the Rus, Magyars, Tatars, etc. Then having access on the Mediterranean (where the climate is milder and there is plenty of fertile ground, i.e. Southern Thrace f.ex.) and the fixation with conquering Constantinople has always driven the efforts of the Bulgarian state south. The Byzantine military threat has also been the biggest one, which also explains why the attention of the kings has been directed towards the south.

One one hand, you're exagerating the Bulgarian political and cultural influences (as the same time minimalizing the incovenient evidences - the Latin character of the language, for instance)...

I wouldn't say exagerating. I am re-introducing it right where it belongs. The "Latin character" of what language? The modern creation of a language for the newly created state of Romania? With this I agree. The inconvenient evidence is the common usage of Bulgarian in liturgy and as official written language until this modern creation. Why not Latin or Greek? I would like to hear a proper explanation for that. The Cyrillic alphabet was created in 864. Whatever the exact math may be, these are maaany centuries mon ami.

As for the Bulgarian lingo in Romanian, I know what you've mentioned and I'd have to add nobility titles, which means a lot, should we abandon the discussion of an established ethnicity in the Middle Ages. There are plenty of other words (and I hate repeating myself) that even the careful latinisation of the language, conducted in order to get rid of the inconvenient Bulgarian factor, hasn't been able to erase. What do you make out of "ulitsa", "zakuska", "palinka" and most importantly "DA" instead of a Latin "SI"? (Btw I am terribly sorry the list I had of latinised Bulgarian toponyms in Romania disappeared when my old pc died. If I find it again, I'll make sure I'll make it public.)

But you don't seem to know that Romanian language has even more Latin words. You don't seem to know that Romanian grammar is so not Bulgarian. You're assuming too much. I never claimed what you are alluding to - that Romanian equals Bulgarian + some random dash of Latin words. Romanian is a distinct languague, yet, a modern construct, produced to partly justify and consolidate the emergence of a new nation-state. Who would use a Bulgarian grammar for such a pooject? You could get away with claiming that Latin and Bulgarian existed simultaneously in some of the lands that contemporary Romania comprises. Then we could have an intersting discussion. Partly, it is what you're saying by stating that the elite used Bulgarian for some purposes. Perhaps we could discuss the intricacies of upper and lower influences and their confluence in a contextual dynamic.

You're welcome to explain the Romanian language and dialects spoken today by about 30 million people. Easy. Ever read anything on the construction of the modern nation-state?

I don't think we have anything to discuss. You lack basic knowledge. Daizus 23:45, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Dazius, I'm not sure what you believe the objective of a discussion is. If you find yourself to exceed the knowledge of others, perhaps you should try and find ways to explain complex matters in a clear and simplified way, so we could all learn something. If you, however, think that you level is way higher, then maybe you should join a scholar discussion where it belongs.

(p.s. As for Tihomir, check this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tihomir_of_Wallachia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Wallachian_rulers)

MAPS OF WALLACHIA UNDER THE BULGARIAIN EMPIRES

http://bartelby.net/67/byzant01.html

http://www.bgns.net/Bg/otech/history/sredna/maps/2-8.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simeon_I_of_Bulgaria

http://bgns.net/site/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=132&Itemid=63

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:2nd_Bulgarian_empire_map_LOC.jpg

The information on this topic is scarce. Please add any other materials that you may find.

Modern region

Why is there no mention being made of the fact that Wallachia is an informal region of Romania (lest for the one I have just added)? There should be some info accentuating modern situations, or at least the modern counties and cities in the region.

Also, why do you feel like linking the very same word ad nauseam? What is the purpose of that, and why does it seem that many Romanian contributors have never seen Wikipedia:Only make links that are relevant to the context? When you make links like Austria or Russia, why do you not check where they lead? Is Republik Österreich really what you mean? (Clue: Habsburg Monarchy or Austrian Empire, in accordance with date). Dahn 22:59, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Dobruja

I am wondering why the map of 14th century Wallachia includes also Dobrudja together with the south (the so-called Cadrilater annexed by Romania as late as 1913. The map is clearly misleading. Are there any medieval sources which indicate that 1. the Dobrotichi despotate was considered part of Wallachia; 2. that the southern border of the despotate was identical with the border between Bulgaria and Romania in the interwar period?

1. We know that Mircea had among others, the title Terrarum Dobrodicii Despotus, "despot of the land of Dobrotich".

2. Well, the map is similar with the 1913 map, it's because that's what the region of "Dobruja" is. bogdan 12:35, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

This source does not suggest that the lands of Dobrotich was part and parcel of historical Wallachia, on the contrary - it makes a clear distinction. In addition, the lands of Dobrotich were not necessarily identical with the Dobrudja of late 19th century which was defined on the basis of Ottoman administrative units (sandjaks). Nor did Mircea's short-lived possessions south of the Danube coincide with Romania's borders of the interwar years.

They were not part of Wallachia, the region. They was part of Wallachia, the principality (voievodat). I think the description of the map should write this. bogdan 17:11, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

1390 map

why the estates of the Prince of Wallachia are represented as Wallachian lands? They were under Hungarian suzeranity even they were awarded to the Wallachian Prince. these lands were not in pawn like the ones (eg Podolin 1412-1720) in northern-Hungary.--fz22 09:29, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

True. Dahn 09:32, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

perhaps still correct :) read this: http://www.cosys.ro/acta/cikkek/ro/binder.htm --fz22 11:30, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Can you point me to what you noticed in the text? I did not see any reference to Wallachian administration in Transylvania. Dahn 12:22, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Sure: "După 1291, până în anii 1360, Ţara Oltului nu este prezentă în documentele maghiare, după 1360 constituie feudă a voievozilor munteni, dar fără să se fi păstrat acte de donaţie. (maybe were lost) Începând cu sec. XV. Ţara Oltului face parte din nou din voievodatul Transilvaniei, dar donaţiile făcute voievozilor munteni au rămas în vigoare." --fz22 12:33, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but does that mean that they were part of Wallachia? Dahn 13:07, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, what does Wallachia mean? If it's the fief of the ruler of Wallachia, then yes, it seems. Dpotop 13:28, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Um, no, not really. If the prince indeed had claim to domenium eminens, this was within a pre-defined territory which was his land as opposed to lands where he ruled (and, also, largely fictional). Think about Mircea's title: it clearly sets a number of regions as distinct from Wallachia, and it gives different titles for each of them (most of which are titles of minor vassals of the Hungarian King). No, that doesn't sound like Wallachia. Dahn 14:47, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

You mean, different from Wallachia in the same way that Transylvania was different from Hungary? Dpotop 16:56, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Or rather like the English Kings as Dukes of Guyenne. Dahn 22:41, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

And a second point: wasn't anyway the Wallachian ruler a de jure vassal of the king of Hungary? In this case, we can only talk about "de facto" fronteers, and there's place for a nice edit war. :) Dpotop 16:56, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Firstly, vassalage is by no means territorial inclusion (be it nominal or real). It is a relation between rulers of different territories for the respective territories (that is why the person occupying the throne of England was vassal to the king of France as the duke of Guyenne, and then, if you asked him, became his own vassal - not after including Guyenne in England, but after claiming the crown of France). In the case of Wallachia, I guess the Hungarian claim became void after Wallachian Princes stopped paying allegiance - which is not to say that they necessarily became sovereign (although, if you asked some of them, they thought they were), but rather that they began placing themselves under Polish rule and whatnot, and finally enetering the protection racket with the Sultans. For Amlas etc., the situation is completely different in theory, since they likely had to go on paying allegiance; an object of investigation should be whether they became vassals of the Princes of Transylvania for those lands. As you may see, nowhere does the Wallachian domain come into question in this matter. Dahn 22:41, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

And anyway, true feudalism is not about states, but about feudal relationships (the problem being that our feudalism is not exactly western-like). Dpotop 16:58, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

As I have pointed out, it was close enough, at least for what concerned the relation of a Prince with the outside, and it certain that no exception was made inside the Kingdom of Hungary and sovereign Transylvania. Dahn 22:41, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

This discussion seems interesting but what seems to be the major conclusion? That Wallachian rulers were not independent and therefore had various titles of vassals such as 'prince' amd so on? Does that also mean that Wallachia was usually part of another empire?

Wallachia before 1330 was composed of: Terra Zeurino (Szorenyi bansag/present day Oltenia) + Cumania (between the Olt river and Ialomita) and Terra Prodnicorum (Prahova -> Danube+Siret). these parts were integrant members of the Hungarian Kingdom until 1330. Cumania was a romanian-hungarian condominium. Only voivod Basarab was able to took Wallachia out of the Kingdom but only for a few year. These years were represented a turning point in the formation of an independent Wallachian nobility (and the decline of the Universitas Olcahorum from Hungary). His predeccessors and successors were de-facto and the latters (after 1390) de-jure vassals of the Hungarian Kingdom.

So the map is still not accurate --fz22 23:17, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Why? Vassalage is not "territorial inclusion". (In fact, the existence of vassal territory should vouch for a map.) Note that I am not denying vassalage, at least not nominal one, but that says nothing about the map (nor would a map of France during the period when it was more or less ruled by English kings, or one of the Low Countries under Habsburg rule). Dahn 16:11, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Terra Seurini was located elsewhere (right bank of Olt river). The region was anexed to the KoH around 1227, when it was detached from Cumania. It was donated to the teutonic order in 1420.

The appartenence of Fogaras land is undecided.

The Utas Land (Teleajen->Buzau,Siret) was integrant part of Szekleyland until the end of the 14th century.

Omlas was also under Hungarian suzeranity --80.99.81.135 16:11, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

What seems to be the main conclusion here? What could Wallachia be called except for a region, and in what periods?

A principality. I do not see how that can even be debated. Also, nobody questions the fact that she was an autonomous polity for virtually its entire history. (Let's also note that the Hungarian claim to sovereignty, which would not in itself warrant anything in map-making, was purely symbolic for long before the Ottoman conquest). All of this is in the text, and I do not see it disputed.

What I believe is indeed grounds for debate is the exact consequences of fluctuating relations between Wallachian princes and Hungarian kings, in regard to the status of lands owned by the former in Transylvania (which, IMO, were not proven to have been politically part of Wallachia, and should at least be ranked as "possessions" - not as integral territory). Please also note that the map in question is linked to a certain moment in time, which is specifically indicated in the caption, and there is no implication of earlier or later periods.

IMO, given the recorded presence of Wallachian rulers for the entire period you seem to debate indicates to me and most mainstream historians that Hungarian territorial claims were either not enforced, or had been agreed and shared with Wallachian rulers (who, at the time, also had claim to eminent domain, and repeatedly indicated that the lands they ruled over overlapped with Hungarian claims). I am not saying that this should take precedent, but I can assure you that, leaving the question of lands in Transylvania aside, Wallachia's borders during Mircea the Old are generally thought to have been those indicated in the map. Dahn 20:47, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Also, nobody questions the fact that she was an autonomous polity for virtually its entire history.

This is a bold statement! Plenty of people do question its status. Continuous Wallachian autonomy is a myth, an imaginary narrative constructed to later support the larger Romanian national myth. Wallachian shaky autonomy emerges sometime around the 15th century and does not become a reality until some centuries later.

I'll be trusting historians to tell me that, not random rants, thank you very much. Dahn 04:08, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

'Trust' is a complex matter. You place your trust wherever it suits you or worse, when you're devoid of choice. Reading historians, also, includes reading between the lines and producing your own judgement. In short, take a look at the beginning of this article and then tell me again that Wallalchia was an 'autonomous polity'. I didn't write that article but feel free to edit it, so it suits you already pre-made views. Good night and good luck! :))