Talk:American Revolutionary War/Archive 21

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Article scope debate Apr 2020

Just out of curiosity, since we spend a great deal of time debating the intent and scope of this article, and cleaning up text that goes beyond the limit of this article, is there a way to pin a summary of these decisions to the top of the Talk page? I guess this is more of a Wikipedia question than a question about this article itself. But having that scope handy might help keep the article focused. Canute (talk) 13:07, 9 April 2020 (UTC)

Canute, It would seem the various section titles give us an adequate summary of the discussions.

• Primary theme of this article
• Coverage of foreign aspects
• Condensing British global involvements
• Inappropriate off topic section
• Unbalanced coverage
• Due weight... etc. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 19:43, 9 April 2020 (UTC)

It seems we now have a consensus to effect these things, and it appears that Lord Cornwallis has acquiesced somewhat. I'd recommend that we move slowly, however. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 20:42, 9 April 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, I was thinking along the lines of pinning decisions to the talk page, especially with the long discussions we've had around what is and is not within the scope of this article. I don't really know if that's a thing, though, I've never seen it anywhere else. Canute (talk) 17:24, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

There's a lot on the plate here. Best to go slowly. The whole theme of this article, per the bulk of sources, hinges on the effort for independence. British global efforts by and large involved their own interests and had little to nothing to do with the American struggle for independence. e.g. There were few if any American patriots involved in the dozens of British-French-Spainish conflicts about the globe. We still have more coverage about those things than the battles of Bunker Hill, Saratoga and Yorktown combined. Gotta wonder how that happened. In the Other British involvements section there are some two dozens battles w/ links covered, while battles like Saratoga and Yorktown are nominally covered in the article overall. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 04:55, 11 April 2020 (UTC)#

Hi guys, sorry I haven't responded for a couple of days, been pretty busy.

Defintely the first three years of war is purely an Anglo-American thing (although France was shipping armaments and supplies to America, and the British were very aware of the French potential to intervene while they tried to deal with the growing war in America) However, the war doesn't hinge solely on the independence issue after 1778. Once entangled with the French the British were compelled to withdraw troops and downgrade America in strategic thinking. Due to the terms of the Treaty of Alliance and Bourbon Family Compact the war almost continued into 1783, even though Britain had by that stage already conceded American independence. At the last the sticking point that nearly prolonged the bloodshed wasn't American independence but the "Gibraltar equivalent". Stockley's Britain and France at the Birth of America: The European Powers and the Peace Negotiations of 1782-1783 is good on this.

Like I've said, I think there are a lot of issues in terms of naming and demarcation of this war not just on Wikipedia but in the RS. I guess there might be scope for having two sister articles. One that covers the war in the American/Canadian theater and one that covers the entire war, of which that theater is just one part. This is similar to the earlier wars where we have an article about the international war respectively (Nine Years' War, War of the Spanish Succession, War of the Austrian Succession and the Seven Years' War) and the American part of it (King William's War, Queen Anne's War, King George's War and the French and Indian War). This would allow a greater narrative focus on each. Not ideal, but it might be some kind of solution to these recurring issues. Again, best wishes. Lord Cornwallis (talk) 19:15, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

AGREE with @Lord Cornwallis: I would say that the ARW itself is NOT the worldwide conflict among Europe's Great Powers of the 1700s - - - BUT the Great Powers do use the ARW of British colonial insurrection amidst their worldwide Second Hundred Years' War to advance an ongoing conflict in overlapping chronologies: (1) Anglo-French War 1778-1783, (2) Antilles War 1781-1783, and (3) Fourth Anglo-Dutch War 1780-1784.

Misapplications of RS otherwise are the Tail wagging the dog, the ARW military history part wagging the Second Hundred Years' War whole. TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 12:49, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

Sister article

A sister article is actually the way to go. Currently Previously in the Other British involvements (1781–1783) section there are were 33 battles/conflicts mentioned, with links in the redundant sections, not to mention all the names/links for various commanders and leaders. Before the International war breaks out (1778–1780) section was condensed there were many such links contained in it. — Presently there are more links to battles and conflicts in the Other British involvements section than there are in the entire article. — Many of these battles come under the headings of Anglo-French War (1778–1783), Fourth Anglo-Dutch War, Anglo-French War, Second Anglo-Mysore War, etc. Most if not all these battles involved no American belligerents and had no concerns or impact on the prospect of American independence. e.g. The conflict with Mysore ended in 1784, the year after the American Revolution was over. If we are to consider the conflict with Mysore as part of the Revolutionary War, which Britain surrendered in, then it goes that the Revolution didn't really end until 1784. All this is very misleading, to say the least.
In terms of coverage and scope, one only has to look at the table of contents in a given publication about the American Revolution to see where the greater bulk, if not all, of the coverage lies - i.e. the conflict in America between the British and the patriots. If there is an exception to speak of, one that gives nearly as much coverage to Britain's other battles, I'd be interested in looking at it and who authored it. Meanwhile we need to summarize this material, as I've begun to do with India, below. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 21:26, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

mark1

In terms of WP:BOLD I could start drafting a separate article that covers in detail the global conflict, although as I say the RS treat them as a single war so the articles would need to reflect that. It would have the advantage of providing more narrative flow to what is a complex war. I don't know if their are any objectors? The other issue would be that of naming the separate articles, I guess. RS aren't that helpful on this. Lord Cornwallis (talk) 22:52, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

Many of the sources simply say that the American Revolution 'sparked' or gave impetus to these conflicts and was not their actual cause, having causes of their own. When you consider that many of the hostilities towards Britain were already in place before 1781 that seems to make the most sense. It's quite likely that some of Britain's enemies figured that since she was greatly committed in America, now would be the time to act, as was the case in the Great Siege of Gibraltar, so you might want to be clear on these sorts of things. It seems a little peculiar that all these conflicts hit the fan in the last years of the Revolution. I'd also give the name of any sister or related article some further consideration. British naval engagements from 1781–1784 might be most appropriate. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 23:09, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

Bingo. They may not be specifically a part of the American War for Independence, but the ARW provided the opportunity for many of these conflicts, and the additional conflicts contributed to the United States' victory because they diluted British warpower and drained British finances. I like the idea of summarizing these key points in this article. Perhaps naming the specific battles is too much. I support the idea of a sister article to go into that level of detail, but I don't have time to contribute to that right now so maybe I should abstain from voting. Canute (talk) 18:58, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

I think a separate article would need to cover the whole period from French entry in 1778. That was the year the war went global, and Britain started shifting attention away from America to rush resources to other areas. Lord Cornwallis (talk) 21:09, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

It almost seems obvious that Britain spread herself out way too thin, given all the engagements that occurred in a relatively short period of time. I'm wondering if there is a RS that says this in no uncertain terms. It would of course be OR if we were to otherwise make that conclusion in this article. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 00:05, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

Generally if you search on google books with the words "Britain" and "overstretched" - and any year between 1778 and 1782 there are quite a few sources to choose from. Like you say it stands to reason because France was about three times bigger than Britain, and the British had never fought France without the assistance of allies before.

Specifically on the 1778 decision in British strategy Middleton The War of American Independence p.110 refers to a note from Amherst to Sandwich "the contest in America being a secondary consideration, our principal object must be distressing France and defending and securing our own possessions against their hostiles attempts" leading to the decision to order Clinton to abandon Philadelphia and New York if need be.

A little later, Middleton notes the entry of France into the war had important consequences for the Royal Navy "since the defense of the mother country was now its first priority, as Sandwich constantly insisted".Lord Cornwallis (talk) 13:35, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

Middleton doesn't actually say that Britain was overstretched, or uses clear words to that effect, only that the conflict in America was less of a priority at that time. Seeing how France was Britain's next door neighbor, i.e.close by, that seems understandable, esp with Spain and others as France's allies. However, in the British Army during the American Revolutionary War, Daily life section it clearly says that Britain was "stretched to the breaking point" but there's no citation for that statement. Speaking of which, wouldn't this existing article be the place to cover all of Britain's other naval involvements, rather than creating a new article? -- Gwillhickers (talk) 20:20, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

There's a statement in the article that conveys the idea that Britain was overstretched, though not in those or similar words: — "Mahan argues that Britain's attempt to fight in multiple theaters simultaneously without major allies was fundamentally flawed". -- Gwillhickers (talk) 21:58, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

The Middleton references were to the British policy decisions in 1778 regarding the shift of importance away from the American Theater following French entry.

The google books reference was to the overstretched. Here a are a couple from the top of the pile

• Edward G. Gray & Jane Kamensky. The Oxford Handbook of the American Revolution. "Britain's already overstretched resources reached breaking point"
• Frank O'Gorman. The Long Eighteenth Century: British Political and Social History 1688-1832. "Quite simply Britain's resources were overstretched"
• Andrew O'Shaughnessy. The Men Who Lost America. "After 1778 the British Army actually shrank in America, overstretched by its commitments in the Mediterranean, Africa, the Caribbean, Central America, India, and Canada"

Lord Cornwallis (talk) 10:31, 15 April 2020 (UTC)