Talk:Conservative Party (UK)

Change political position to say "Centre-right to right-wing"

I have done this. Lbc07 (talk) 18:19, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

I think this is a reasonable change given the well-documented shift towards the Right. While this is not reflective of all of the Conservative elected representatives, those such as the European Research Group could reasonably be referred to as right-wing. Thoughts? -Internet is Freedom (talk) 15:59, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

I'm happy with this change as long as you can find a few decent sources (ideally international ones) which refer to the party as a whole as right-wing. Absolutelypuremilk (talk) 09:33, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

I support this proposal as long overdue and a clear improvement of the current wording, although in my opinion we should ideally go a step further. The party left the mainstream conservatives (the group that includes the CDU/CSU of Germany and The Republicans of France) many years ago when it joined an EP group that has at various times consisted of openly far-right anti-immigrant parties like the Alternative for Germany, the True Finns and the Danish People's Party, some of which have ties to Neo-Nazism. The Conservative Party in the UK may have been a conservative party (in the European sense) in the past, but there has been a shift towards being primarily a right-wing nationalist party, that has been remarked on by many commentators, and in recent years also an increasing overlap with the far right, with people like Jacob Rees-Mogg who openly supports far-right parties in Europe such as the AfD. The most accurate description today would probably be "a right-wing and partially far-right political party in the United Kingdom." This is also pretty much in line with how parties that the Conservative Party (UK) has had formal cooperation with, such as the AfD, are described ("a right-wing to far-right political party in Germany"). --Tataral (talk) 17:00, 2 September 2019 (UTC)

Quick attempt at finding a few refs:

The Irish Times (2019): "The right-wing Tory Party once presented itself as the pragmatic party of business. Now it’s a radical separatist sect populated by clownish demagogues." [1]

The Guardian (2019): "[the party] has today been hijacked by the radicals. It no longer has space for the Keynesianism of Rab Butler or the liberalism of Francis Pym. It is the home of the radical right." [2]

CNBC (2017): "Theresa May, Britain’s current premier and leader of the right-wing Conservative party" [3]

The British Council (2015): "The Conservative party is a right-wing party which promotes lowering taxes by reducing the size of government." [4]

Book 'Muslims in British Local Government' (2014): "The Conservative Party is a right-wing party that advocates smaller government and lower taxes at both the local and national levels." [5]

TSP (talk) 17:19, 2 September 2019 (UTC)

Those are passing descriptions, at least some of them polemical, not considered analyses. With regards Tataral's argument, the EPP are not conservatives and most definitely are not "mainstream centre right" from a UK perspective. The EPP is a Christian Democrat Europhile body (with some of its own rum members). Hence the Conservatives and the EPP have never been happy friends (it was the EPP who turned down the first attempt at a hookup) and this got worse with the increased federalist drive around the time of the constitution/Lisbon Treaty. A Eurosceptic party tends to approach its place in the EU Parliament as a matter of pragmatism based on its approach to the EU, not some general statement of political principle on some broader continental spectrum (that's a product of a Europhile approach). Mentioning the AfD is tarring by association - the AfD began as very much a professors' Eurosceptic party and when it veered off to the far right most of its MEPs deserted and it was expelled from the ECR. And Rees-Mogg was clear he does not support them. Timrollpickering (Talk) 20:52, 2 September 2019 (UTC)

Your assertions about the European People's Party are wrong. Our own article describes it primarily as a coalition of "conservative and liberal-conservative member parties." It is universally considered centre-right, and at the very least the main centre-right group, if not the only centre-right group in the EP. Postwar-era Christian democracy is for all practical purposes the dominant form of centre-right conservatism in certain countries, like Germany, but these parties (e.g. the CSU) are also widely described simply as conservative.

It is a fact that the Conservative Party (UK) is a member of a group that is entirely dominated by parties not considered "centre-right" by any serious scholars or commentators, i.e. parties widely considered right-wing nationalist to far-right. They have not only included the AfD (now regarded as far-right with neo-Nazi elements for several years), but also the anti-immigrant True Finns and the anti-immigrant, far-right Danish People's Party, and various hard-right parties in Eastern/Central Europe. The fact that their new friends and partners were a hodgepodge of far right parties, some with links to Neo-Nazism, was in fact discussed in the media already ten years ago when the Conservative Party (UK) left the EPP. And regarding the AfD, British media have repeatedly highlighted the support of key Tory politicians, like Rees-Mogg, for the AfD as recently as this year[6], so it's not simply a thing of the past, when the party was supposedly the German equivalent of UKIP. When they form a group with a bunch of clearly far-right parties, they can't expect to be considered "centre-right".

The article you are linking to, titled "Leaving the EPP will be truly revolutionary," is written by Daniel Hannan. As The Independent notes, "earlier this year [...] Daniel Hannan endorsed Dutch white nationalist politician Thierry Baudet, an adherent of the “cultural Marxism” conspiracy theory."[7]

Wikipedia is an international encyclopedia and we are writing from an international perspective here, not from a UK perspective any more than we are writing from a German or French perspective. Wikipedia is not based in the UK and doesn't favour UK perspectives over other perspectives. From a broader, European perspective, this party and its formal partners in the EP are not widely regarded as centre-right, but as parties on the right-wing to far-right spectrum. --Tataral (talk) 23:43, 2 September 2019 (UTC)

Upon leaving the Conservative Party (UK) today, which resulted in the party losing its parliamentary majority, Phillip Lee noted that the party is "infected with the twin diseases of populism and English nationalism,"[8] which is yet another example of the shift in how the party is perceived, and especially in how it is now viewed primarily as an English nationalist party rather than a centre-right conservative party. --Tataral (talk) 19:37, 3 September 2019 (UTC)

Just came across this discussion and it is clear that on any scale that the conservatives are a right wing party. Have there been any sources cited to suggest they're centre right? This seems the position that needs defending as it's mealy mouthed at best. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 167.98.85.52 (talk) 11:02, 4 December 2019 (UTC)

Reply to unsigned IP. Suggest you look ar organisations supporting Conservatives - such as Bright Blue. In no way could they be classed as purely "right wing", therefore present description should stand. If you are going to make a "contribution", please ensure you sign it. Thank you, David J Johnson (talk) 11:26, 4 December 2019 (UTC)

It seems to me that there is consensus here to do something with the current, nonsensical description of the party as only "centre-right," at the very least to include the "right-wing" descriptor. I would prefer "right-wing to far-right", but perhaps the latter description needs more discussion. --Tataral (talk) 21:51, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

I agree. At the very least the UK Conservative party should be described using [Populist] National Conservatism discriptors. Centre-right certainly no longer applies since the 2010 general election and the application of (arguably) discredited austerity [9] policies by David Cameron [10]. Some strong and high profile powerful MPs (including Johnson, Gove, Duncan Smith and Mogg) are far right and have even called themselves the Grand Wizards [11]. Johnson has made many racist and homophobic statements;too many to list here, however his staunch anti-immigration attitude is very clear [12] [13] and the party supports the far-right Orban government in Hungary [14]. The Conservatives flagship 'Hostile Environment' policy is arguably a far-right policy [15] designed, in conjunction with austerity, to punish the poor, as suggested in harsh critisism by the UN's special rapporteur [16] and the UN Committee on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights [17]. Many high profile and powerful Conservative MPs advocate foodbanks [18], insurance based healthcare [19] and forced labour [20]. The staunchly right wing European Research Group is considered to be a reasonably powerful party within a party that is a driver of Conservative policy. One could argue that it's constant pressure on Theresa May was a major contributor to her failure to deliver Brexit and eventual resignation [21]. And of course, the Conservatives promote Laissez-faire right wing policy of opening of markets, including the NHS to US companies [22]. One could argue that Johnsons illegal prorogation of Parliament [23] was a deliberate attempt to push through a No-Deal-Brexit at the behest of the US trade representative as requested in the fore mentioned leaked US-UK trade documents [24]. This would have been a good example of disaster capitalism if it had been enacted. Many powerful Conservative MPs also associate with Steve Bannon (a well known white supremacist) [25] [26] and there are indications that high profile far right activist Tommy Robinson has recently joined the Conservative Party [27]. Moderate Centre-Right politicians, for example Baroness Warsi, are being sidelined [28]and many have even left the party. Overall, indications are that the UK Conservative party has shifted further to the right of the political spectrum [29] [30]. Nealunreal (talk) 13:11, 16 December 2019 (UTC)

Page move discussion

Hi. You might be interested in this discussion. Thanks. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 09:33, 24 May 2019 (UTC)

Infobox: party leader

I don't know what the wikipedia practice is for this, but IMHO we don't need to include outgoing next to the party leader's name in the infobox. It's certainly not the practice in Canadian political party articles. Perhaps it is for British political party articles. What say you all? GoodDay (talk) 15:19, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

On her own page, the infobox says "Acting: since 7 June 2019", so would assume this page should also say acting for consistency 1234567jack (talk) 16:06, 7 June 2019 (UTC)

Leader of HoC

Is there a reason why the Leader of the House of Lords is listed in the infobox, but not Leader of the House of Commons? I thought it may have been taken off and not replaced when Andrea Leadsom quit, but looking at history this is not the case. 1234567jack (talk) 16:03, 7 June 2019 (UTC)

Leader of the House is a role in a government. Traditionally the party's leader in the Lords carries out this job in that chamber, but the leader in the Commons doesn't. Timrollpickering (Talk) 10:54, 10 June 2019 (UTC)

No, Baroness Evans is Leader of the House of Lords, it is a role in government, not party political. She is not the Conservative Party leader in the House of Lords. There is no such thing if you look at the party's structure https://www.conservatives.com/Members/Party-Structure-and-Organisation. For that reason I feel she should not be listed either. See also the roles page on the government website https://www.gov.uk/government/ministers/leader-of-the-house-of-lords. 1234567jack (talk) 18:20, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

"Boris Johnson (2019-present)"

That way of formatting the sub-section title in the article might give the impression that we're assuming that he'll last until 2020... -- AnonMoos (talk) 22:07, 8 September 2019 (UTC) Cringe... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.7.124.20 (talk) 19:53, 22 March 2020 (UTC)

"Centre-right political party"

One may argue it would now be legitimately fair and more accurate to describe the Conservative Party as far-right, as since 2019 they have openly espoused nationalist, nativist and authoritarian policies which would not be reasonably regarded as politically centric. 86.6.59.59 (talk) 22:07, 20 October 2019 (UTC)

I agree that we should include the far-right descriptor, but probably as part of a spectrum, "right-wing to far-right," like we typically do in the articles on comparable parties with which the Conservative Party (UK) has had formal cooperation agreements at the European level, such as Alternative for Germany ("is a right-wing to far-right political party in Germany"). We already have a discussion on this above. The descriptor "centre-right", particularly when used as the only descriptor of the contemporary Johnson-led anti-immigrant party, is an obvious falsehood that comes close to propaganda. --Tataral (talk) 21:56, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

Opposed. The position should be based on reliable sources, not users' personal opinions or elevation of the importance of alliances in the EU Parliament (which only the Brussels bubble cares about) as core defining. Timrollpickering (Talk) 00:17, 14 December 2019 (UTC)

The position is based on reliable sources, many of which have remarked on the party's shift to the right, and as far as I can tell on a consensus on this talk page. Certainly a description of Boris Johnson's party in 2019 as "right-wing" (a fairly broad and inoffensive term that typically includes conservatives; even Law and Justice is described as right-wing populist) is utterly uncontroversial and universally recognised by non-FRINGE sources, except those sources that prefer the descriptor "far-right" instead. Our article on right-wing politics notes that "the term right-wing can generally refer to "the conservative or reactionary section of a political party or system".

The WP:FRINGE position that Boris Johnson and the party he leads are somehow "centre-right" on the other hand is not based on any reliable sources, and cannot be included as the only descriptor in this article, as a number of editors have pointed out for some time now. Centre-right is a term that is associated with the political centre and that typically describes centrist parties like the EPP family. As many commentators have noted, the Conservative Party (UK) began drifting to the hard right exactly when it left the centre-right group (i.e. the EPP) and entered an official alliance with various squarely far-right parties. Centre-right is not a term that is used by many reliable sources when describing the Johnson party and its policies (or Johnson's ally Trump for that sake). One of the party's most senior politicians until recently, Philip Hammond, himself not exactly a left-winger within the party, just noted that the party is now "extreme right-wing."[31] And conservative newspaper The Daily Telegraph noted yesterday that Johnson has "fostered a squarely Right-wing Conservative Party".[32] Descriptions of the party as "centre-right" are generally many years old and refer to a completely different party with different people and different policies, and most importantly, that was part of the centre-right group, the EPP, which wouldn't touch people like Trump or Johnson the Brexiteer with a barge pole.

Of course the party's official alliances matter; it's the Conservative Party (UK) itself that recognised Alternative for Germany (frequently described as extremist in Germany), the True Finns, the Danish People's Party and a bunch of other anti-immigrant far-right parties as its official sister parties with which it shares its values and ideology. Nobody forced them to enter into an alliance with all those far-right parties. If someone officially joins a far-right alliance or party, it's a pretty strong indication that they are far-right. The notion that only "the Brussels bubble" cares about whether someone is far-right and anti-immigrant is just plain wrong, this party's drift to the hard right has been extensively commented on in British media too, and indeed by many of its own most senior politicians under the former more moderate leadership. --Tataral (talk) 05:02, 14 December 2019 (UTC)

Agreed. The party has been drifting right for some time now, culminating with the election of Boris Johnson, who ejected all of the moderate (centre-right) MPs from the party for voting against him.[33] The Conservative Party's election campaign was also endorsed by far-right figures including Stephen Yaxley-Lennon, [34] who later announced he had joined the Conservative Party. [35] I think changing it from Centre-right to Right-wing to Far-right would better reflect the current state of the party. Grnrchst (talk) 14:26, 14 December 2019 (UTC)

Support the retention of centre-right. Absolutely disagree with calling the party far-right, which is ridiculous. The party does not hold Neo-nazi, fascist or ultranationalist ideologies. A few figures from the far-right joining the party's membership and/or endorsing the party does not change the political position of the party as a whole on its own. The party needs to show a clear ideological and political shift through its rhetoric and policy positions, which have not changed to the far-right. I am possibly open to centre-right to right-wing, however I'm not currently convinced by the arguments made. The source referring to Johnson fostering the right-wing within the party falls under WP:SYNTHESIS as it is not explicitly calling the party itself right-wing as a whole. I am yet to see any reliable source that explicitly refers to the party as a whole as right-wing. Helper201 (talk) 14:42, 14 December 2019 (UTC)

Here are sources which refer to Boris seeking the centre or middle ground:

• https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/boris-johnsons-manifesto-will-abandon-threat-of-a-no-deal-brexit-6gd8xj9nb
• https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/12/13/general-election-results-2019-live-boris-johnson-conservatives/
• https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/12/13/boris-johnson-signals-huge-lurch-middle-ground-new-labour-style/
• https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/may/21/boris-johnson-centrist-tories-leadership-bid-pitch

Helper201 (talk) 15:00, 14 December 2019 (UTC)

What we are discussing here is the nonsensical description of the party, in the present tense, only as "centre-right", as opposed to using one or more descriptors that reflect how up-to-date reliable sources actually view the party today, for example as right-wing, an inoffensive broad descriptor that may include conservative/national-conservative parties like this party and Poland's Law and Justice party (which is in fact described as such) and numerous of the Conservative Party (UK)'s official sister parties. I think the best solution is to describe the party today as mainly right-wing and historically as mainly centre-right, while noting its perceived far-right tendencies in recent years. It's quite uncontroversial that there is a tendency or faction within the party that is far-right/extreme right, even Philip Hammond[36] and other prominent former Tory politicians have said that.

The description of the party led by Johnson as only centre-right, with no mention of either right-wing or far-right tendencies, is WP:FRINGE, pure and simple. Also, a party doesn't need to be neo-Nazi or fascist to be far-right, that's not at all how the term far-right is used. Far-right, like right-wing and centre right, is a broad term that may describe many different ideologies to the right of centre-right and moderately right-wing politics. Our own article on far-right politics simply defines it broadly as "politics further on the right of the left-right spectrum than the standard political right", which is certainly true for this party today. --Tataral (talk) 17:50, 14 December 2019 (UTC)

Centre-right per the sources listed by Helper201. Adoring nanny (talk) 19:35, 14 December 2019 (UTC)

Centre-right or right - I'm certainly no fan, but they are clearly a mainstream conservative party, sure there's some far-right loons among them, but the party is not Neo-nazi, fascist, ultranationalist or driven by any other far right ideology overall. Bacondrum (talk) 23:14, 14 December 2019 (UTC)

Centre-right: I am anything but a Tory. However, it is ludicrious to suggest they are anything but centre-right. Brexit isn't a "left" or "right" issue, and if you look at the (vanilla) tory manifesto - moderate, plain and simple. Wikipedia is evidence-based and factual. Not a place for people to litter pages with their political views.Executiveop (talk) 23:19, 14 December 2019 (UTC)

Centre-right from a quick look over Google Books and Google Scholar, academic and book sources tend to describe the party as "centre-right". So do news sources, including recent news sources. That doesn't mean that the party's relationship with the far-right (such that it is) isn necessarily not worth discussing; it just means that it's not been established that any other description is more appropriate. Ralbegen (talk) 23:41, 14 December 2019 (UTC)

Centre-right There are plenty of groups, such as Bright Blue and others who are liberal Tories, also Boris Johnson has declared his administration to be "One Nation Conservative". David J Johnson (talk) 12:39, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

Right - Right Wing would be more appropriate. Brexit may not be a left - right wing issue, however immigration, crime and government spending is. It is widely recognised that the UK conservative party takes a much more right nationalist approach to crime and immigration than many European counterparts. If you want evidence on this, you have the whole issue of the European migrant crisis, where the centre right governing party in Germany, the CDU, opened Germany's borders. Whether as more right leaning/right wing & Nationalist governments in Turkey and Hungary closed their borders after a certain period, with the UK closing theirs off almost immediately. So at least if the description isn't changed from centre-right to right leaning or right wing, then it should at least be edited to include 'Nationalist', as it is very much concerned with preserving British Nationalism, cutting immigration, and promoting tougher police and crime stances, whether as a more centrist and 'compassionate conservative' approach would be to tackle these issues by improving circumstances. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.149.38.94 (talk) 23:23, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

Again, I am anything but a tory. But this is just incorrect. Firstly, the UK's borders were never "open" - like Ireland, the UK has long had an optout from schengen. Additionally, the UK joined in Operation Triton. Also, the Tories' stance on crime and police is absolutely not nationalist, and never has been. I'm sorry, but that is completely baseless. The tories' stance on crime is no tougher than New Labour's. Meanwhile, Theresa May may have tried to cut down on immigration during her time as home secretary and PM, but she never achieved that target (not even close) and has never approached it in a "nationalist" manner (although the "hostile environment" was absolutely disgraceful, it isn't nationalist, and it was a policy previously shared by New Labour and (during the coalition) the Liberal Democrats). Furthermore, under Cameron the Tories were pretty relaxed on immigration. Johnson is meanwhile even more pro-immigration (he's advocated an amnesty for 500,000 illegal immigrants, and his proposed points-based system is generally considered to increase, not reduce, immigration).--Executiveop (talk) 00:50, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

There's not really any value to discussing immigration policy here—the only important thing is descriptions of the party in reliable sources. I'd say particularly in academic sources, for a topic as well-covered as the UK's Conservative Party. Ralbegen (talk) 10:18, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

Agreed --Executiveop (talk) 12:22, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

Oppose this proposal The Conservative Party is a centre-right party as described by reliable sources. It has not been described as "far-right" in reliable sources.  Spy-cicle💥  ^Talk? 15:03, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

Infobox - number of MPs

Ten of the Conservative rebel MPs have had the party whip restored tonight. Culloty82 (talk) 19:15, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

References

Semi-protected edit request on 29 October 2019

Change the number of Conservative Members of Parliament from 288 to 298. On October 29th 10 former Conservative MPs had their whips restored. Factsinwiki (talk) 19:35, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

 Already done see Special:Diff/923630317. Thanks, NiciVampireHeart 22:11, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 November 2019

Jonathan Nightfire (talk) 00:51, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

Political Position: Right-Wing through Far-Right

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made.. 03:46, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 13 December 2019

conservative party now have 364 seats Libertyaaaa (talk) 09:31, 13 December 2019 (UTC)  Not done: as they ended up with 365 seats. - Arjayay (talk) 17:55, 14 December 2019 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion:

• Theresa May official portrait.jpg

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Commons files used on this page have been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons files used on this page have been nominated for deletion:

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Semi-protected edit request on 15 December 2019

Change references of the conservative party being a 'centre-right' party to 'centre-right to right-wing', due to the recent surge to the right by some areas of the party showing such terminology is reasonable and has been used by media outlets, political commentators, and even former conservative cabinet ministers. Bwahah123 (talk) 23:36, 15 December 2019 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 03:56, 16 December 2019 (UTC)

Party Anthem

List Land of Hope and Glory as Party Anthem as it is the Party Anthem Ncooksey12 (talk) 07:44, 8 April 2020 (UTC)

No it is not an official "Anthem". David J Johnson (talk) 11:06, 8 April 2020 (UTC)

Eurosceptic party - Ideology

Under Tory manifesto in 2019, the Conservative Party takes a Eurosceptic stance, this is also shown in its membership of the European Conservatives and Reformists Party. Why is this not in the ideology of the wiki page? (Airline7375 (talk) 17:41, 15 June 2020 (UTC))

That’s a good question, Airline7375. The issue is that even though the current party leaders are Eurosceptic, it’s much closer to an even split. The change was made in the past and was considered controversial because labeling the party as Eurosceptic gives the impression that almost all party members are Eurosceptic, which is not the case. Ezhao02 (talk) 19:57, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

Yes I understand this, Ezhao02, but as euroscepticism was drawn out In the 2019 election, MPs were given the choice to withdraw their candidacy as a conservative in seats, or support his deal to leave the EU. I respect your view on this matter however as I do understand their is some pro-European factions within, but is a minority.

(2A02:C7F:9882:D300:AD4F:812A:D837:6F52 (talk) 02:00, 16 June 2020 (UTC))

This isn't my view; it's the consensus other editors have discussed. I think we should have other editors comment since I haven't been very involved on this page. Ezhao02 (talk) 02:38, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 25 July 2020

Political Position Right Wing to Far Right 81.110.67.21 (talk) 02:36, 25 July 2020 (UTC)