Talk:Dorian mode

Definition

I read the definition given here as:

"In music, the Dorian mode is a diatonic scale or musical mode, using all notes in the major scale, beginning on the note just a whole tone below [the major mode]..."

(Bold text added.) In other words, I interpreted this to mean that a Dorian mode would be, for instance, using all of the notes of a C major scale and starting on B. Of course this is wrong, and the subsequent paragraph clears things up, but is there a clearer way of putting this?

How about:

"In music, the Dorian mode is a diatonic scale or musical mode using all of the notes in the major scale that begins a whole tone below it."?

The "that" introducing the last phrase tells the reader that we're describing the major scale here, and that the pronoun at the end of the sentence refers to the Dorian.

Of course, I don't know that much about music - I was using the page, after all - so I hope that someone will double check my usage, or try their own fix.

Asmendel 15:09, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Your confusion arose from the following:

The major scale does not contain a note a whole tone below it's tonic (in C Major: B-C is a semi-tone, Bb-C would be a whole-tone). The sentence appears to be a typo (mine?), it should read "above".

Further note or degree can't be above or below a scale, because scales use octave equivalence, "above" the scale CDEFGAB is simply another octave of that scale C'D'E'F'G'A'B'.

Thus the start of the Dorian is a whole tone above the tonic of the major scale, not below the major scale.

Hyacinth 20:00, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)

This mode and gregorian chant

In the medival definition of this mode, the natural minor scale, is scale used more often in gregorian chant then others?

I'm afraid that I don't fully understand the question. The ancient Greek Dorian mode was the natural diatonic mode in E. The mediaeval and modern Dorian mode is the natural Diatonic mode in D. The natural minor scale is the natural diatonic mode in A. In Gregorian chant, the mode in A was very rarely used. Technically, Dorian is the fancy name for the first of the eight standard Gregorian modes. This mode feels minor to most people who are used to the major/minor duality in modern Western music: it can be thought of as a minor mode with a recurring raised sixth. I wouldn't say that this mode is used more often than others. One of the traditions of plainchant is to cycle through the modes. Have a look at the article on musical modes for more information. --Gareth Hughes 12:10, 19 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Basic question

I can get how a scale can be in Dorian mode (or Phrygian etc.), but I can't get how a piece of music can be in a particular mode. A piece uses notes from all over the scale to produce a tune, and these notes do not seem to conform to a strict pattern. So I would have thought the concept of a mode would be irrelevant in this case. I hope I've made the question clear. I think this page should resolve this issue, since it seems a reasonable misunderstanding, and it is in fact what I read the page for. It is a longstanding item of confusion with me, even having once studied classical guitar.203.129.128.94 00:44, 13 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

A piece of music can utilise any musical note, including chromatic and enharmonic intervals. However, most music restricts itself to a selection of possible notes. The most common selection is a diatonic scale. However, there are many cultures that use a different standard. In diatonic music, the fourth and fifth intervals are almost always fixed in relation to the tonic, but the other intervals may have different values. In fixing these 'floating intervals' for a particular scale, one creates a mode. --Gareth Hughes 12:52, 14 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Project for Mode Articles: Standardization and Consolidation

The mode articles are a mess when taken together. The articles need to be standardized and some of the general information consolidated into the Musical mode article and removed from all the articles about specific modes.

a few specific propositions:

corresponding information

I think all the mode articles should have corresponding information in corresponding sections. For example, the intervals that define the mode should be given at say, somewhere near the top of the article in a section called "intervals" or something (whatever, as long as its standard for all articles and maximally descriptive). Also things like if the scale is "symmetric" or "asymmetiric" or whether its a "minor" or "major" scale should be all in one place (perhaps a table would be best for these things).

Information about modes in general

All information that is about modes in general (i.e. applies to all modes) should be moved to the Musical mode article, and not mentioned in the articles about specific modes (all articles should of course be linked to the general Musical mode article). Information about idiosyncratic properties of the modes then will be easier to find that way, and there will be no confused and redundant info (sorta like this paragraph).

Greek vs. modern terminology confusion'

Information about the confusion between the greek and modern terminology should stay in the Musical mode article, with a note at the top of each article--out of the main body--highlighting the terminology confusion (to eschew obfuscation). Perhaps there should be serperate disambiguable articles for the greek modes e.g. a article for Ionian (Greek Mode) and Ionian (Gregorian Mode).

avoiding articl style divergence with later editors not privy to the standardization project

As time passes, people who don't know about the effort to standardize the article no doubt will add information to the article in their own style, perhaps causing the articles to diverge in style over time. To avoid this, we can make a template to go at the top of each talk page that tells editors to keep in mind the style standardization (perhaps a project page--"metawiki pages" I think they are called--with a template and style explanation). Although this may not be that much of a problem, if the style is obvious and is suffieciently elegant to begin with.

Am I getting across the idea here? What do you guys think about such a project? I know there is a way to set up a wikiproject for this sort of thing, but I've never done it before. I'll look into how to do it. Any other ideas on how to make the articles fit better together? Any objections or improvements to the above suggestions? Brentt 09:26, 23 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

PS please respond and discuss at the Musical mode talk page

Confusion about tetrachords

There is a discrepancy between this article and the Tetrachords article about the varieties of diatonic tetrachord. This article claims that the Dorian tetrachord is: "descending, a series of falling intervals of two whole tones followed by a semitone," that is to say, ascending, sTT. The Tetrachord article, however, describes it as "a rising scale of tone, semitone and tone," or TsT. I don't know myself which is correct, but the two articles should agree on one of them.

User:Ixionid, Dec 29 22:50:11 EST 2006.