Talk:Ramón Mercader

Untitled

According to this page, Mercader arrived to Mexico as "Frank Jacson" (sic) with a fake Canadian passport, not as the Belgian Jacques Mornard. However, I am not sure if Canada had its own passports back in 1939. Ruiz 08:41, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)

Murder of Trotsky

"...On August 20 the same year, Mercader..." This looks like careless editing. What year? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.145.0.162 (talk) 14:57, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

is it fitting that a lying murderer died painfully of cancer? 174.24.17.22 (talk) 19:23, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

Hidden deletions

Xe xe. Someone took out all reference to the Cuban origins of Mercader's mother and left no apparent trail in revision history. Now who would want to do that? Xe xe. El Jigüey 12/09/08

Why not a movie?

Why did not anybody make a movie or a book about this guy. I mean, Leon Trotsky was FAR more powerful then any American president. His story is fantastic Hollywood stuff. Assassin sent by KGB undercover to kill one of the most powerful men on Earth. Befriends his target for about two years and kills him. Damn...I'll have to write a story about this guy. He deserves it (he was only twenty six when he killed Trotzky).

Has been done ---> [1]

Snottily 12:16, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

A book has been done also! "The Man who Loved Dogs" by Leonardo Padura

Soviet agent

We seem to be having the same issues as at Joseph Stalin regarding whether Mercader was a Soviet agent. Many reliable sources support this contention (they have itemized at Talk:Joseph Stalin), yet it is continually reverted without discussion by User:Mista-X. The current formulation is not ideal and cites only one of these sources (the U.S. NSA), but more can be provided to support this widely accepted fact. The oneparty.org reference is accurately characterized as "supporters of Stalin" - for Pete's sake, the link is to a lecture given at a meeting of the Stalin Society. Let's have discussion on this rather than more reverting of well-sourced material. MastCell ^Talk 21:26, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

The current single source is enough, as you said on the Stalin page there is no need to endlessly buttress this widely accepted point. The article also needs to state that Stalinists CONTINUE to deny it, changing it to "others" obscures that fact. Mista-X's argument now seems to be that there is no "new evidence", and that the "same old proof" says he only visited the USSR, when it really says Mercader was a Spanish Communist recruited into KGB service by his mother.

Separate from this, the article could use two new sections on the oddities of Mercaders Trial and imprisonment, I will add them eventually. Questioning81 14:23, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

MastCell

There is not sufficient proof to show Mercader was an actual agent. The sources only derive from a planned rescue of Mercader that never happened. The other sources show that Mercader was "trained" in the USSR, but it was typical for communists to travel to the USSR in those days and train in party school. And even if Mercader was 1.) an agent 2.) taking orders directly or indirectly from someone who was an agent, there is no proof that the assassination was an official mission of the NKVD, on orders of the NKVD, and there has never been any proof that Stalin ordered such a thing. Mercader murdered Trotsky in an unprofessional and strange manner, much like a crazed former apprentice who felt like his master had betrayed him. A professional assassin doesn't use random weapons like an ice-axe and deal semi-fatal blows. NKVD traditionally and to this day KGB uses poisons and such, which is much more stealthy and effective. This points towards Mercader, et al acting alone and the NKVD trying to avoid an embarrassment by breaking him out (even though he was probably only roughly linked to the NKVD, which in those days any communist would be accused of being a spy in the western hemisphere).

The recent sources added by MastCell are over kill. Most of them are brief articles that mention things in passing, one about the actual ice-axe itself, etc. and should be preserved to source other part of the article as it expands; but really these sources prove nothing about Mercader unrtaking "assassination" orders. Sources 2 and 3 might be interesting to look at, but I have my doubts about Conquest. Let's try to work together from now on. --Mista-X (talk) 01:29, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia isn't based on how we think the NKVD would plausibly have acted in a given situation. It's based on what reliable sources say about a subject. This is codified in Wikipedia:Verifiability and Wikipedia:No original research. The sources initially provided were more than adequate, especially since I am unaware of any reliable source that denies Stalin's and the NKVD's involvement. Even Soviet historians admitted Stalin's and the NKVD's involvement toward the end of the USSR. Certainly it's not too much to expect Wikipedia to be at least as honest about Soviet history as Soviet textbooks were?

However, since you've edit-warred, and been blocked, over this issue in the past I went ahead and added 10 additional reliable sources so things would be a bit clearer. I'm happy to discuss reliable sources and their views. I'm not interested in listening to someone dispute a widely accepted fact buttressed by dozens of reliable sources based solely on their personal views. This isn't the forum. MastCell ^Talk 04:24, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Stalin ordering Trotsky killed is NOT a widely accepted fact. It's purely a widely speculated and assumed version of history. I hav never seen any source that shows declassified archives with such orders coming down from the NKVD let alone from Stalin. If there is I would like to see this. I also don't understand why Stalin would have killed Trotsky at a time when he was actually calling for support for the USSR, seems more like something his follower couldn't swallow! NKVD had Trotsky right under their thumb in buyakada just years before, Trotsky could have and should have been sent straight to the gulag or firing squad long before he got to any hot vacation spot. --Mista-X (talk) 04:35, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Wow. Authentic Stalin-apologist crankery. I've not seen this on a regular basis since my old friend Jacob Peters got banned.

Apart from that, please read WP:FRINGE and try to understand just how irrelevant your lack of understanding is on Wikipedia. Even better, try some history books. Moreschi (talk) (debate) 19:02, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Moreschi, I do read history books which is why my concerns arise. The following is what I am challenging: 1.) if Mercader was an agent, where was the proof? And I mean real proof like his profile from NKVD archives, not a codename for him in a rescue attempt AFTER he murdered Trotsky, 2). If Trotsky was ordered assassinated by Stalin, let's see a signed order. 3.) If there is no such evidence that exists from Stalin, we can't just "assume" he wanted Trotsky assassinated, that's poor work and misrepresentation. 4.) If there was an order or mission by the NKVD, lets see the evidence, not a rescue attempt after the fact, but evidence there was an official NKVD mission to assassinate Trotsky. This should not be hard if there is declassified archives, so why have the "historians" only provided us with vague references to the NKVD? --Mista-X (talk) 19:47, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Attempting to get inside Stalin's head and make an editorial determination as to the rationality of a particuar action of his is not really Wikipedia-appropriate. The widely accepted view of motivation and timing is simple. Trotsky was useful to Stalin as an Emmanuel Goldstein figure, a ubiquitous, omnipotent centralized boogeyman. All of the accused in the Moscow Show Trials, and many of the rank-and-file victims of the purges, were accused of "Trotskyism", of connection with him. Once the Purges were wound down, by 1939-1940, Trotsky was no longer necessary as a boogeyman and became a loose end, with 2 floors of the Lubyanka devoted to wrapping him up (according to Conquest). Yes, there is no signed order from Stalin to eliminate Trotsky, just as there is no signed order from Hitler to carry out the Holocaust, but these events would not and did not happen without instruction from the top. MastCell ^Talk 18:59, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Comparing the holocaust with this really gives me an idea of where you are at, MastCell, and that's sad. BTW, whose assuming things now? 1984? A Nice storybook. Sorry, but Stalin didn't need Trotsky because all of the defendants in what you call a "show trial" confessed or sold each other out. You are simply confusing widely accepted myths as facts. The real fact is that no hard evidence exists which proves Stalin masterminded this, or that it was by the NKVD. It's just so-called "logical assumptions". --Mista-X (talk) 19:39, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm not interested in continuing this debate, as I don't see it as being particularly productive. So long as you're willing to respect WP:V, WP:NPOV, WP:NOR, and WP:SOAP, and avoid substituting your personal opinion for that of dozens of reliable sources, I think we're done here. MastCell ^Talk 19:53, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

You haven't provided any reliable sources. --Mista-X (talk) 21:06, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

[2]. Happy editing. MastCell ^Talk 21:12, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't want to restart a debate but wanted to put my 2 cents in. In all the books and articles I have read on the subject conclude Mercader was trained by the NVKD.

It is documented that: Mercader attend NKVD school for saboteurs. (Alexander Orlov who defected to the US testified to this.)

Vladimir Petrov who defected to Australia testified to seeing Mercaders reports in the Trotsky dossier in the KI registry on the NKVD. Including pictures and layouts of the house. This proves that the NKVD knew he was there at the very least to gather information on Trotsky.

That Caridad received the Order of Lenin from Stalin personally for liquidation of 'dangerous enemy of the people' and that Ramón eventually receives the Order of Hero for his 'valorous act'.

That's interesting, did Stalin visit him in a Mexican Prison to present him with the Order of Lenin? Or is it a fact that it was Khrushchev who gave it to Mercader years later (after the death of Stalin)? And how exactly does any of the above prove that Stalin ordered the assassination of Trotsky? --Mista-X (talk) 21:03, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

You misread - it was Caridad who received the Order of Lenin from Stalin not Ramon (although it was at the same time that Stalin announced Ramon was awarded Order of Hero, he did not physically receive the medal after his release). After the assassination Caridad was presented at the Kremlin by Lavrenti Beria to Stalin for the award. Also I never claimed that Stalin ordered the assassination. BaomoVW (talk) 14:46, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Stalin was worried about the book Trotsky was writing about him. Thats why the first failed attempt in Mexico on Trotsky included incendiary bombs to his house. I think it is possible that NKVD and the Kremlin didn't know about the assassination prior to it actually occurring but to suggest that they were completely oblivious or that Mercader wasn't an agent is no more than a conspiracy theory. But its worth mention. (I think the current wording is fine.)

I think some of the references in the second sentence should be redistributed throughout the article and the redundant ones deleted – not to undermine anyone's viewpoint but to clean up the article. Hopefully as the article expands some of the ambiguity will be resolved. BaomoVW (talk) 15:36, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Misha-X, Misha-Y, and Misha-I. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.178.58.112 (talk) 16:50, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

restoration of content

The use o fthe name for assassins in major films is notable content, showing continued awareness of his deeds. I have restored the deletion. DGG (talk) 13:04, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

• I'm with you on Variations on the Death of Trotsky, which is a notable play in which Mercader is a major character. Not so much on the Manchurian candidate - the assassin is named Raymond Shaw, and he's a captured U.S. Army soldier brainwashed using a variety of methods. Has anyone drawn a connection from that to Ramon Mercader, a Communist and willing assassin in the employ of the NKVD, besides the editor who added it to this article? I find it a bit of a stretch, to say the least. MastCell ^Talk 17:54, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

re: Frank Jacson

The story goes Sylvia Ageloff met Mercader as Jacques Mornard in Paris. Ageloff moved back home to New York where Mercader met her with the Frank Jacson passport. He explained he bought the passport for $3500 to avoid military service.

Also Canadian passports were issused as early as 1915. lookie BaomoVW (talk) 23:55, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Identity

"Mornard" looked like Mercader's relatives. A Belgian would not know Catalan phrases. The fingerprints from 1950 would come partly from the Franquist police, of course. Mercader was too dark and short to be a Belgian. The unusual spelling "Jacson" has been described as a double bluff to disarm suspicion, but it was probably just a stupid mistake. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.44.108.96 (talk) 14:04, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Real name

The correct name of this man was "Jaume Ramon", not "Jaime Ramón", this is the spanish name, but not the original one, which was written and pronounced in the catalan way. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Freecatalonia46 (talk • contribs) 17:29, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Mixed sources

I just asked Jgdavies1 on his userpage about the source for his recent edit. Blue Rasberry (talk) 13:37, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

Spanish, not Catalan

His nationality is referred to as Spanish, not Catalan. Catalonia is part of Spain. Here are examples of this: [3] [4] (all refer to him as Spanish). Not to mention, he is referred to as a Spaniard, not a Catalan in the Spanish Wikipedia. (N0n3up (talk) 06:20, 17 December 2015 (UTC))

You mention "Catalonia is part of Spain". So as you are stating he was Catalan and Spanish. Otherwise makes non-sense. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 171.18.2.2 (talk) 17:11, 22 July 2019 (UTC)

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A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:

• Mercader post arrest.jpeg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 15:54, 27 July 2019 (UTC)

"His last words are said to have been:.."

sentences like that should never appear in a serious encyclopedia 37.119.180.240 (talk) 20:36, 21 August 2020 (UTC)