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Good articleBeyoncé has been listed as one of the Music good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
January 15, 2024Featured article candidateNot promoted
April 22, 2008Peer reviewReviewed
April 30, 2008Good article nomineeListed
October 5, 2008Featured article candidateNot promoted
May 20, 2013Good article reassessmentKept
September 22, 2013Peer reviewReviewed
Current status: Good article

Semi-protected edit request on 20 July 2020

Include filmmaker in her list of titles (singer, songwriter, etc). She has produced 4 films up to this point (Life is but a dream, Lemonade, Homecoming and Black is King) and it only makes sense for it to be acknowledged 41.57.208.27 (talk) 14:05, 20 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. P,TO 19104 (talk) (contribs) 19:38, 21 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

associated artists

should chloe x halle be under the associated artist list.......... Thedivinebey (talk) 22:04, 5 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Only if they meet Template:Infobox_musical_artist#associated_acts' criteria. © Tbhotch™ (en-3). 22:12, 5 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Should she be defined as a songwriter in the lead?

Should Beyoncé be defined as a songwriter in the lead of her article? isento (talk) 04:51, 21 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'm converting this thread into an RfC, for the reasons that were stated below. Given the subject's ubiquitous cultural presence, I think it's better to get a consensus on this. isento (talk) 11:19, 24 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Votes

Actress, yes, the rest, no. © Tbhotch™ 23:08, 25 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Yes they are. Beyonce has produced records throughout her career (including some independently), is well-known as a dancer, and has made several films (including one which received a Peabody Award and another which received 6 Emmy nominations). These are all attested to in reliable sources and are certainly "integral to the person's notability" as per MOS:ROLEBIO. Bgkc4444 (talk) 19:23, 27 August 2020 (UTC)Bgkc4444[reply]
Dancer? Dancing on her tours doesn't make her a dancer, and which records has she produced (other than her own)? © Tbhotch™ 19:36, 27 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
These activities can be discussed further down in the lead, but not in the defining first sentence. isento (talk) 17:46, 28 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes - Beyoncé has been called a songwriter by both reliable third-party sources and those who have worked with her, therefore it is definitely a defining characteristic. Timeheist (talk) 18:59, 27 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Tending towards 'no'. By omitting it in the first sentence, we wouldn't be saying she's NOT a songwriter. If there's controversy among reliable sources whether this is a legitimate characteristic or attribute then why post it this prominently in the lede? (especially when there are characteristics and attributes far more dominant in terms of how they are reported in the media). But I won't care if it remains either. Weak no. ---Sluzzelin talk 19:43, 27 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Tending towards no, per Sluzzelin. If we decided to keep the "songwriter" role, then we had to address the controversy on the lead section. Something like "Beyoncé has been credited as a co-writer in majority of her songs, but her songwriting contributions were often disputed. Bluesatellite (talk) 21:12, 27 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

Fair question, given her songwriting track record is controversial, and her contributions seem to be often marginal ([1]), unless an independent source can confirm otherwise? Given the definitions of songwriter available here and elsewhere, she seems to fit it only if we use the term loosely. Which begs the question, is that really helpful to readers understanding this article's subject? isento (talk) 04:51, 21 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

If this helps, there have been interviews with producers who have witnessed Beyonce writing entire lyrics to songs and observations regarding her production and musicianship abilities. The source is a book called "House of Hits: The Story of Houston's Gold Star/Sugarhill Recording Studios"- p.239-240 Cleopatra5595 (talk) 05:42, 21 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

A bit, yeah, but all I see is an interview with Workman (not really an independent source) detailing her having written lyrics for one song while in her old group twenty years ago. In any case, I've added a footnote alongside "songwriter" in the lead with qualifying info about her writing credits, although I would like to see more comments here. "Songwriter" still does not appear to be a defining characteristic for this person, which is what the lead should define in its opening (WP:LEAD). isento (talk) 05:52, 21 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The most reliable source for songwriting is actually the people who involved in the writing process itself. Dan Workman is only the audio engineer of the record, he has nothing to do with producing, let alone songwriting. Rob Fusari who did actually write and produce "Bootylicous" said to Billboard that Beyonce was lying that she was the one who came up with the song's idea.[2]. And that's not the only time such things happened. Bluesatellite (talk) 06:12, 21 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. I've included that in the article. isento (talk) 06:25, 21 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The fact that a significant portion of her recognition and awards is for her songwriting necessitates the inclusion of this role in the lead, as it is a defining characteristic of her and her career. According to WP:DEFINING, "A defining characteristic is one that reliable sources commonly and consistently define the subject as having", which is certainly true in this case. It also brings the following example: "a film actor who holds a law degree should be categorized as a film actor, but not as a lawyer unless his or her legal career was notable in its own right or relevant to his acting career". Beyonce as a songwriter is certainly relevant to her career as an artist. Nothing about using the word "songwriter" for Beyonce contradicts the songwriter article or any Wikipedia guideline. Bgkc4444 (talk) 18:06, 24 August 2020 (UTC)Bgkc4444[reply]

A Google search for Beyonce and songwriter appears to lead with reliable sources profiling a few of the songwriters who've written for her and a Vanity Fair piece comparing Beyonce to Meryl Streep, Frank Sinatra, and Billie Holiday as artists who are "celebrated [not] because [they] write such good parts, but because [they] create them out of the words that are given". isento (talk) 21:31, 24 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The ASCAP is a performer's organization, not an independent awards body. isento (talk) 21:38, 24 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
:: Please look further. From this year, this article calls her a songwriter, this one does so twice, and so on. Bgkc4444 (talk) 21:56, 24 August 2020 (UTC)Bgkc4444[reply]
One of those sources calls her a "singer-songwriter", which she clearly isn't. Maybe you'd notice that if you were as discriminatory with sources that favor your position as you were with sources that don't. isento (talk) 22:26, 24 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I've now cited several more sources/controversies to the article surrounding her songwriting credits/claims. Perhaps you should take that into consideration. isento (talk) 23:03, 24 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Nothing you have said means that Beyoncé is not a songwriter. The fact that she has had co-writers and a source called her a singer-songwriter does not negate the fact that she is a songwriter in any way. You source your contentious claims about living persons to unreliable sources, and therefore this material does not belong in the article (see WP:BLPRS). Your material also violates WP:NPOV and you have given undue weight to minority views. Your assertions in this discussion similarly violate these rules. Timeheist (talk) 18:59, 27 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
As well as the arguments being based on unreliable sources, Isento also brings a claim by one collaborator who later recounted it. Yet there are many more collaborators who have spoken about Beyonce's writing, such as producer Dre, who said here "She was 100 percent involved. She put her mind to the music and did her thing. If she had a melody idea, she came up with the words. If we had the words, she came up with the melody. She’s a beast." The article continued, "When pressed further about assumptions that Bey's songwriting contributions are minimal, Dre said, "Haters, that’s their job: to do everything to discredit brilliant people." No doubt, Beyoncé has been discredited by many over the years—and held to standards that don't exist for many of her white peers, in a racist fashion—but a number of her collaborators have always come to her defense." This includes Ryan Tedder, who said "The whole melody, she wrote it spontaneously in the studio". Similarly, Carla Marie Williams said here that Beyonce "got to work on how she wanted to say the words properly. She's a visionary herself, so she started helping us find the direction of the song. She wanted it to be a female anthem, and we wanted to address certain issues. [Months later] we were still working on the second verse, trying to refine it. It wasn't just like, "Yeah, take the song." We really crafted it all together." Similar statements have been made by various additional collaborators, such as here, here and here. These are all stories published only since her last album, and there are many more reaching back over the past couple decades. It is impossible to say, without bias, that Beyonce is not considered a songwriter. Bgkc4444 (talk) 19:14, 27 August 2020 (UTC)Bgkc4444[reply]
Bogus argument. They're not unreliable - The Daily Beast's chronicle of factual events is echoed in the Vulture, the Sunday Independent, Billboard, The Boombox, even Daryl Easlea's biography on Beyonce. The collaborator didn't recount the claim - as I stated in my edit summary, and had you actually read the source(s), you'd see one interview is referring to the producer's musical idea, the other to the titular concept. Tedder is cited in the Sunday Independent source as "muddying the waters" about her songwriting credits. To deny there isn't a controversy is to be blinded by one's fandom, as Kritselis suggests in the Sunday Independent. isento (talk) 20:42, 27 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Timeheist, nothing anyone has cited here demonstrates she is consistently and reliably defined as a songwriter, which is the threshold here: "A defining characteristic is one that reliable sources commonly and consistently" (WP:DEFINING) Hired guns close to the event which is Beyonce's purported songwriting are primary sources. isento (talk) 20:49, 27 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Use common sense. A songwriter writes a song. She has exclusively written parts of songs, or a part of a song. She is a part-song-writer. A co-writer. There. I've broken it down in plain English. isento (talk) 20:56, 27 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The Daily Beast is a reliable source for news, not for the opinion of a writer spreading contentious claims about a living person. The Sunday Independent and The Boombox are unreliable sources for this also. Fusari did recount his claim and Tedder never said that. You're doing original research. The former told Billboard "she told Barbara about how she came up with the idea for the track" and later told EW "she had the ‘Bootylicious’ concept in her head. That was totally her." The latter told the Guardian that Beyonce rewrote the bridge and therefore she is a songwriter. He didn't suggest at all the Beyonce steals credits, he just said that he doesn't know about other songs. As always Isento, we shouldn't be cherry-picking negative points and misrepresenting sources just because we don't like the person who the article is about, and then give these points undue weight.
As you agreed before, "The most reliable source for songwriting is actually the people who involved in the writing process itself". You base your arguments on unreliable sources (including a comment by a random musician, which of course is not relevant when you're trying to find reliable sources for contentious claims about living persons) and the only source you have from a person who actually was involved in the writing process later recounted the claim. I brought half a dozen statements from those involved in the writing process, but of course you deny them. As the source I brought earlier said, Beyonce's detractors are holding her "to standards that don't exist for many of her white peers, in a racist fashion". She is a songwriter. Period. Her co-writing songs doesn't make her not a songwriter. No-one claims that so I don't understand how that's forming the base of your argument. Your arguments seems to be changing and you seem to be giving a few at once because none are strong on their own. Is she not a songwriter because she has co-writers? Because you claim she steals songs? Because you claim she makes marginal contributions? Because you claim it isn't a notable role of hers? Please choose one. Bgkc4444 (talk) 17:56, 28 August 2020 (UTC)Bgkc4444[reply]
They're not contentious claims. The source is used to verify that she's been criticized by journalists and musicians for songwriting credits, which is an undeniable observation. The only opinion cited from the Daily Beast's Kevin Fallon is the trend has redefined popular conceptions of songwriting, with Fallon saying, "the village of authors and composers that populate Lemonade, [Kanye West']s Life of Pablo, [Rihanna's] Anti, or [Drake's] Views—all of which are still reflective of an artist’s voice and vision ... speaks to the truth of the way the industry’s top artists create their music today: by committee." (Which is actually an argument in favor of your position...) The Boombox source cited in the article clarifies Fusari's controversy concerned credit for the musical idea (the riff, the sample), not the lyrical concept. Should I repeat that for the nth time to you? isento (talk) 18:02, 28 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Your hypocritical, too-long-to-read accusations only serve to alienate me from talking to you and to isolate yourself in this discussion. The majority of editors here agree "songwriter" is not definitive. Are they also "cherry-picking negative points and misrepresenting sources because [they] don't like the person who the article is about"? Maybe they're just too stupid to recognize her almighty talents? isento (talk) 18:09, 28 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
For the record, in case you thought otherwise, I don't know Beyonce personally. And I actually happen to like the music she sings and puts her name to. isento (talk) 18:12, 28 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
You should ascribe the first two sentences of the paragraph to the authors of the sources, provide more reliable sources than ones which quote a Fox News article full of racist dogwhistles, and properly represent all views. The Boombox made their own interpretation of the interview. When making contentious claims about living persons, it is best to quote directly from an interview if there is a dispute on its meaning, therefore "he told Barbara about how she came up with the idea for the track" and the converse "she had the ‘Bootylicious’ concept in her head" is what should be used in this article.
Focusing on what your original argument was, that Beyonce should be considered a songwriter if this role has been commonly and consistently attributed to her in reliable sources, you cannot deny that this is true here. It was the case during the Destiny's Child era, the Dangerously In Love era, the B'Day era, the I Am... Sasha Fierce era, the 4 era, the BEYONCE era, the Lemonade era, until today. One cannot say that Beyonce has not been commonly and consistently described as a songwriter, without bias. Bgkc4444 (talk) 18:04, 3 September 2020 (UTC)Bgkc4444[reply]
Dude, the producer literally said, "she knew what she wanted to say". How do you get musical idea (as opposed to lyrical concept) from this? isento (talk) 01:24, 4 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Well, that first source you cited is describing a relative status within the group, calling her "the group's primary songwriter"; of the three members she appears to have more credits for co-writing, looking at the extensive writing lists at those Destiny's Child album articles. The BBC and Redeye sources are before the exact nature of her "writing" contributions came to light (say, for instance, getting a writing credit simply for making an off-the-cuff vocal alteration during a song's bridge, as reported here), and the ABC News source is another that misuses the singer-songwriter title, which I suspect you still don't grasp either... isento (talk) 01:32, 4 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
So, in conclusion, she does not appear to be reliably (and not much consistently) defined as a songwriter. isento (talk) 03:32, 4 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
(side note) isento, could you try harder posting something definite the first time around rather than tweaking n times thereafter? (full disclosure, I'm guilty of the same syndrome, but its potential nuisance has been explained to me) ---Sluzzelin talk 18:36, 28 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Haha, sure. I'll do my best. isento (talk) 18:49, 28 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 26 August 2020

Beyoncé Giselle Knowles-Carter better known as Beyoncé, is an American singer, songwriter, dancer, actress, entrepreneur, record producer and film maker born in Houston, Texas on September 4, 1981. She was 14 years old when she rose to fame and stardom. Haliomerania (talk) 13:45, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done This is way too promotional and is already covered in the article.Praxidicae (talk) 13:46, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Beyonce knowles will know for her vocals, dance moves and songwriting is a famous american female singer Joyce bongekile mhlongo (talk) 18:41, 9 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I’m the one who edited this statement in the first paragraph, but I wonder why it does not show up when you first look up Beyoncé. AfroWorld33 (talk) 22:25, 9 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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