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September 24

The in front of abbreviations

I heard you can ask language questions here. Should you write "SPLC is an organization that opposes bigotry" or "The SPLC is an organization that opposes bigotry"? TIA ImTheIP (talk) 08:43, 24 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I think it depends. It's usually used with "The BBC", never with "NATO". AnonMoos (talk) 09:08, 24 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Because NATO is an acronym? ImTheIP (talk) 09:12, 24 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think it's that simple: CNN ABC for example. Bazza (talk) 09:26, 24 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
In Australia, we do say The ABC when you are referring to their TV channel. --TrogWoolley (talk) 11:04, 24 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
ImTheIP -- BBC and NATO are both acronyms, both commonly preceded by "the" in their full form when used in a sentence ("the British Broadcasting Corporation", "the North Atlantic Treaty organization"). AnonMoos (talk) 10:21, 24 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Yes they are, and we do indeed refer to "the BBC"; but not to "the NATO". How to tell whether to include the "the" seems to be the original question. Bazza (talk) 10:54, 24 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
NATO is normally pronounced like a word ("Nayto"), whereas BBC is pronounced with each letter individually. Could that be relevant?
That's not a reliable guide. We have 4 types:
I would just like to note that the notion that there are such a thing as "true" acronyms which do not include all of Jack's examples is disputed. --174.89.48.182 (talk) 22:07, 25 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, there are schools of thought and climates of opinion about this. (I went to the best school, naturally.) But my starting point is that any other thing called -onym is a word. Not just a name or a title, but a word. BBC, FBI, CBS etc are not words in the traditional sense. They might get counted as "words" in a word count of a document, but that's about it. They might even get possessivised ("the BBC's charter"), but that means little when we now hear atrocities like "He and I's father". Besides, I'd argue that what's being possessivised in my BBC example is just C, not the whole expression BBC. Others are free to differ. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 23:05, 25 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
There is no general rule or convention. The best may be to follow the usage of the organization itself: "The SPLC is a catalyst for racial justice ...",[1] "The SPLC stands up for ...",[2] "Each year since 1990, the SPLC has published ...".[3] However, they themselves are not 100% consistent: "SPLC is a nonprofit, tax-exempt 501(c)(3) organization".[4]  --Lambiam 09:53, 24 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, or the style guide of the national press association in your country. If the US, I think there are two, but just checking what the Associated Press does, it seems they include "the" nearly 4/5 of the time for this particular organization, based on ghits. 70.67.193.176 (talk) 16:28, 24 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
It might not be best to follow the usage of the organization itself. For example I understand that the CIA is sometimes called just CIA by insiders, but omission of the definite article seems aggrandizing and inappropriate to this outsider. Temerarius (talk) 20:34, 24 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
From the CIA's website: "The CIA is an independent agency responsible for ..."[5] and "Like all government agencies, the CIA was not created overnight".[6]  --Lambiam 11:27, 26 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
CIA insiders supposedly call it "the Company" more often than anything else... AnonMoos (talk) 21:23, 24 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
This is a feature of languages generally, thus "the Netherlands", "the Ukraine", etc. 92.7.217.34 (talk) 10:58, 25 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Except it's not "the Ukraine" any more. That applied when it was a region of Russia, and continued after it became a separate Soviet republic, but ever since it became an independent sovereign nation in the 1990s it's just "Ukraine" now. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 16:45, 25 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
But it is "The Gambia", which is an independent sovereign nation that refers to itself that way (with a capital "T").  --Lambiam 11:45, 26 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Officially "Republic of The Gambia", nearly consistent with "Republic of the Congo", and both named for their primary rivers. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:38, 26 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
This gets back to my point about French names for countries. In English, the use of the definite article is very much the exception. But in French, it's almost universal (more so than I thought above; and to boot, one has to know whether it's le, la or les) – except for certain exceptions, which [7] tells me are:
  • Antigua-et-Barbuda, Bahrein, Chypre, Cuba, Djibouti, Haïti, Israël, Kiribati, Madagascar, Malte, Maurice, Monaco, Nauru, Niue, Oman, Saint-Christophe-et-Niévès, Sainte-Lucie, Sainte-Marin, Saint-Vincent-et-les-Grenadines, Sao Tomé-et-Principe, Singapour, Sri Lanka.
Most of these are islands, which may be significant (except many other islands get an article). But Djibouti, Israel, Monaco are Oman are not islands. Who makes these decisions? -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 22:36, 26 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I can't make heads or tails of the above discussion. But here is a specific example: Simon Wiesenthal Center (SWC). Is it "the SWC" or "SWC"? ImTheIP (talk) 17:30, 25 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I think the conversation got convoluted because there's no apparent rule as to whether or not "the" is required for acronyms or abbreviations. For your specific question, I would use "the SWC". If you ask me why, I would say because it looks right to me (and refer you to the tortuous discussion above). Bazza (talk) 09:01, 26 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Their website uses just "SWC" in page titles and when used attributively (as in "SWC officials"), but in full statements they mostly use "the SWC": "a goal the SWC has contributed to",[8] "The SWC supports all Presidents",[9] "The SWC is the only Jewish NGO ...".[10] As I wrote before, I’d follow the use of the organization – unless there are strong reasons not to do so,  --Lambiam 11:45, 26 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Current labels for or types of capitalism

I'm interested in a list of terms describing current forms/types of capitalism. 'Digital capitalism' is one. 'Neoliberal capitalism' another. There are many of these labels, often critical, floating around but I struggle to remember them and they are a little challenging to google up. Can people suggest current descriptions of capitalism that illustrate or explain the many critiques currently available and relevant? Thanks if you can help. -- Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:A447:A6CD:1:680C:EC0A:99F2:8557 (talk) 12:30, 24 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Shareholder value capitalism -- originally used with positive connotations, but today usually negatively... AnonMoos (talk) 13:10, 24 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
We also have articles on Eco-capitalism, Corporate capitalism, Democratic capitalism, State capitalism, Authoritarian capitalism, Anarcho-capitalism, Social capitalism, Welfare capitalism, Consumer capitalism, Caravan capitalism, Regulatory capitalism, Surveillance capitalism, Rentier capitalism, Black capitalism, Collective capitalism, Crony capitalism, Finance capitalism, Gentlemanly capitalism, Humanistic capitalism, Heroic capitalism, Inclusive capitalism, Penny capitalism, Pink capitalism, Sustainable capitalism. For criticism, I'd start with Criticism of capitalism and the category Category:Criticism of capitalism. ---Sluzzelin talk
There is a portal for this subject Portal:Capitalism and a project Wikipedia:WikiProject Capitalism. We also have individual articles on advanced capitalism, anti-state capitalism, Casino Capitalism, ersatz capitalism, financial capitalism, free-market capitalism, green capitalism, homocapitalism, industrial capitalism, liberal capitalism, merchant capitalism, monopoly capitalism, neo-capitalism, party-state capitalism, peak capitalism, progressive capitalism, racial capitalism, rainbow capitalism, stakeholder capitalism, state monopoly capitalism, supercapitalism and technocapitalism. 92.7.217.34 (talk) 16:06, 25 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

September 25

MOS:SAMESURNAME and similar names

While this question may be better suited for Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Biography, I'm looking for general guidance, rather than policy (which is covered at MOS:SAMESURNAME). During the ongoing copy edit of article Kaikhosru Shapurji Sorabji by User:Tenryuu, some issues were noticed in its section Kaikhosru Shapurji Sorabji#Family and finances. Sorabji's father was called Shapurji Sorabji, so sentences referring to both of them might look like "Sorabji lived with Shapurji...", which may be ambiguous. The Manual of Style page says, "When referring to the person who is the subject of the article, use just the surname unless the reference is part of a list of family members or if use of the surname alone will be confusing" (emphasis in original), but does not offer any officially allowed approaches. One option would be to refer to Sorabji's father as "Shapurjee Sorabjee" (as some sources do), but that might be a problem in a spoken version of the article. Additionally, Shapurji Sorabji would have a bit of a claim to WP:GNG, and WP:UCN would rule out the "Sorabjee" spelling, so that is not ideal. I think it would be reasonable to use "Kaikhosru" for the son and "Shapurji" for the father throughout relevant portions of the article, but I'd like to get input from others. Thank you. Toccata quarta (talk) 11:33, 25 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

If someone has a particular preference that isn't crazy and they get prickly about it, go along with it. Otherwise just do something that makes sense and is unambiguous and don't worry about the MOS. Editors obsessed with the MOS are Wikipedia's versions of Vogons, so as a matter of sanity preservation it's good practice to avoid interacting with them too much. There is almost no area of Wikipedia as bureaucratic. Let them do their own thing while you do yours. 2601:648:8202:96B0:0:0:0:DDAF (talk) 06:12, 26 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
True as that may be, any reference to "Shapurji" or "Sorabji" will be potentially ambiguous, while their full names are a bit long and abbreviations ("K. S. Sorabji" and "S. Sorabji") would look odd. However, most of the events described in the section happened after Shapurji Sorabji's death, so from that point of view, there shouldn't be any ambiguity. And yes, WP:IAR should be at least as important as the MOS, but the plan for the article is a FA nomination, so one best be cautious and not too "creative" in working on it. Toccata quarta (talk) 06:43, 26 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
To an Indian reader, such abbreviations look normal. The complexities of Indian names are such that our policies are not up to dealing with them.  --Lambiam 09:31, 26 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Often, one can avoid such problems by referring to the father as "his father" instead of using a name or by making similar substitutions. Deor (talk) 15:58, 26 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

September 26

Swiss French accent?

Do French-speakers from Switzerland have an obvious accent that a speaker from France would notice and recognize right away? If yes, is it enough to cause issues with intelligibility? I know that the answer to both of the above for Quebec instead of Swiss French is yes. Thanks. 2601:648:8202:96B0:0:0:0:DDAF (talk) 02:54, 26 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The accent of Vaud sounds, to me, analogous to a Welsh accent in English. --Tamfang (talk) 03:35, 26 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
All I know is that it's famous for having rational number words ("septante, huitante, nonante"), but these might not come up in most conversations... -- AnonMoos (talk) 06:14, 26 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
4 Big Differences: Swiss French vs Regular French: "In France, they tend to smash syllables together and sometimes transform the sound of a word or phrase into something sounding much different... If you visit Switzerland, you are likely to hear well articulated French instead of mashed up French like that above".
YouTube - L'ACCENT SUISSE (in French). Alansplodge (talk) 12:03, 26 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
FRENCH AROUND THE WORLD: SWITZERLAND: "Many French people swear that they can recognize Swiss accents, but, in fact, there is no standard Swiss-French accent. Parisians and Quebecers might tell you that Swiss people speak French more slowly, but linguists have disproven this claim. Actually, what differentiates the Swiss accent is its emphasis on penultimate syllables. That is, "standard" French speakers emphasize the last syllable of words and sentences. Swiss French speakers, on the other hand, tend to accentuate the second-to-last syllable of phrases, which changes the rhythm of their speech".
Alansplodge (talk) 12:03, 26 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
In standard French, speakers slightly stress a word's last syllable which does not contain a schwa vowel (not always the same thing as the word-final syllable). In connected speech, this often means that stress is on the last non-schwa-containing syllable of several words in a row, pronounced together as a phonological unit... AnonMoos (talk) 12:29, 26 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
As indicated above, these differences are perceptible to native speakers, but subtle. They do not affect mutual intelligibility. By the way, many French speakers would be hard-pressed to distinguish correctly between a Swiss and a Belgian accent unless they dealt with such speakers on regular basis. The Quebec accent is much more obvious, and intelligibility issues surface mainly when some form of joual is spoken (there are snobbish Parisians who pretend not to be able to understand any accent that deviates in the slightest from standard Parisian French, but they're the one who need help...). Xuxl (talk) 13:49, 26 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
In response to your question, and as others have said: standard or no, the Swiss-French definitely have a noticeably accent that is distinguishable from a France French accent, but it is fairly subtle, and never causes problems of intelligibility. Belgian is slightly different (and to my ears) more easily distinguishable. But don't mistake the situation for Swiss French with the situation for Swiss German, which besides having a very different accent than High German, is also its own language (at the spoken level; there is no written version) and is only partly comprehensible to foreign German-speakers. Mathglot (talk) 10:24, 27 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Restrict toward?

From m:Abstract Wikipedia/Wiki of functions naming contest. Is this phrase correct? "...restrict the wiki only towards the goal..." sounds a bit weird to me: 

The name should not restrict the wiki only towards the goal of the Abstract Wikipedia or be only about natural language and content abstraction, but should reflect the potential that the functions may be used in a large diversity of ways and places.

Thanks--Pierpao (talk) 18:14, 26 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It does not make sense to me. --174.89.48.182 (talk) 02:40, 27 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
It seems to be saying that whatever name is chosen, it shouldn't be about just certain things but should be about all potential uses of it. Possibly written by someone who either doesn't speak English natively, or was only half awake when they wrote it. Ideally, contact whoever wrote it and ask for clarification. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 06:12, 27 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The phrase was present in the earliest version of the page, created by a Canadian editor who self-identifies as a native English speaker.  --Lambiam 11:01, 27 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
User:Quiddity (WMF) could you rephrase it, please, or add your comment. Thanks a lot.--Pierpao (talk) 15:43, 27 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
User:Quiddity (WMF)--Pierpao (talk) 15:46, 27 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Pierpao: Hi, I've rephrased that point. I hope that is clearer. Thanks for the note. Quiddity (WMF) (talk) 16:51, 28 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Much better! Thank you! :) ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:04, 28 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

September 29

Curfew commander

What is the proper word for a person in charge of a curfew (in areas where curfew appplies)? Seems either Commandant or Commandant (rank), but neither article mentions curfew. Thanks. 212.180.235.46 (talk) 07:55, 29 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think there is a general notion of "person in charge of a curfew". There is an authority that declares a curfew, and a corps enforcing the curfew. The authority that declares a curfew will generally be the executive body charged with the governance of the concerned area, such as a city, state or national government, or in the case of a military occupation the military government or the commissioner (or commander or whatever their title) of the occupying power. The corps enforcing the curfew will in regular circumstances be the local police, but can also be military police, or any force that accepts the orders of the authority that declared the curfew and is capable of applying coercion to citizens. That enforcing corps will generally be directed by some head, and the title or rank of their position will be the traditional one for the corps involved, like "commissioner of police", "police chief", "sheriff", or whatever.  --Lambiam 10:46, 29 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
There are many different kinds of curfew. According to our article, the answer might simply be your mum.--Shantavira|feed me 12:24, 29 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I'm asking because recently during a curfew in Azerbaijan Vilayat Eyvazov was appointed "commandant of areas where curfew is applied". However, I'm not sure whether linking to Commandant would be appropriate here. 212.180.235.46 (talk) 12:49, 29 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
коменданта территорий is what the sources seem to be saying, but it's military commander of those territories, not commander of the curfew right? fiveby(zero) 13:07, 29 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I think this is the orderen, but the site keeps timing out. fiveby(zero) 13:23, 29 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
For the UK at least, how about wikt:warden? Street warden, "Civilian wardens set to police streets" ...be ready to tackle anti-social behaviour, check on truants, or deal with abandoned cars - as well as enforce court-ordered curfews... Y'all got these people running around tackling anti-social behavior? fiveby(zero) 12:55, 29 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, maybe "commander of the areas" is worthy. 212.180.235.46 (talk) 14:44, 29 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
In Azeri he was appointed komendant saatının tətbiq edildiyi ərazilərin komendantı. The Azeri term komendant basically means "someone charged with the supervision"; depending on the context, it can be translated as "commander", "commandant", "supervisor", "warden", or "superintendent". So the Azeri means that he was appointed as "the person charged with the supervision of the areas where curfew has been declared". Pick your choice of which one-word translation feels best, taking into account that Vilayət Süleyman oğlu Eyvazov, while having the title of "colonel general", is currently not actively serving in the military but holds the civil position of Minister of Internal Affairs, and that the Azeri term, although also used as a title, is more generally used than as a title. If I had to write something up for an English-language news item, I'd simply write that he was "put in charge".  --Lambiam 19:45, 29 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
It has to be said that a curfew doesn't have to have a person specifically in charge of it. My city, Melbourne, Australia had a curfew until a few days ago to help control COVID-19. It was policed by the police, so I guess the person in charge was the Chief Commissioner of Police, as is the case with any other law enforcement in the city. HiLo48 (talk) 23:35, 29 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
In this country, there is a 10 PM curfew on bars and restaurants. Obviously this is enforced by patrolling police officers. 92.31.140.61 (talk) 10:54, 30 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

September 30

Movie that has events both before and after a movie it's from the franchise of

Is there a special term for this kind of movie?? (This question was brought to my attention when some users were editing articles related to information on a prequel to The Lion King (2019 film).) Georgia guy (talk) 14:34, 30 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

wikt:interquel. --Jayron32 14:36, 30 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Or, if you prefer, wikt:midquel. --Jayron32 14:37, 30 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
If it has both before and after, maybe it would be a wrapquel or aroundquel. 2601:648:8202:96B0:0:0:0:DDAF (talk) 01:36, 1 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]


October 1

Smith did rob the bank

Why do they add "did" like that in criminal indictments, instead of saying "Smith robbed the bank"? Some archaism? Not sure what it might have derived from. Thanks. 2601:648:8202:96B0:0:0:0:DDAF (talk) 01:34, 1 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

N

Thanks

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