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why was this removed?

https://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Biden–Ukraine_conspiracy_theory&diff=983698064&oldid=983697931

Aviartm? soibangla (talk) 18:51, 15 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Soibangla Edit conflict. It has been added. Aviartm (talk) 18:55, 15 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

NY Post is unreliable source

It is making an extraordinary claim, requiring corroboration from reliable sources, and that doesn’t mean sources simply reporting The Post reported this. No such corroboration exists. The article makes at least one clearly false assertion and allusions to other dubious if not false assertions. The material is clearly UNDUE and must be removed. soibangla (talk) 19:13, 15 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The same could have and was said of the Steele Dossier. We need more RSs to corroborate reporting, agreed. According to Vice News, "At the moment, no reporting including our own has turned up evidence to contradict the Post, and The Daily Beast has published an interview with the repair shop owner, which is also bizarre, but lines up with the Post's story." Corroboration is already underway. Aviartm (talk) 19:18, 15 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Steele dossier has zero to with this. Corroboration is already underway Sure looks like debunking at this point. soibangla (talk) 19:21, 15 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Look, this whole thing has all the classic telltales of October Surprise dirty trick disinformation, likely of Russian origin. It absolutely reeks. Think. soibangla (talk) 19:25, 15 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Absolutely, it's politics. Whether it came from Russia is unknown. Aviartm (talk) 19:35, 15 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Is this Wikipedia policy or just an opinion? Just because a newspaper gets something wrong once doesn't mean that it is unreliable. Most newspapers make mistakes occasionally. It also isn't relevant to its accuracy if it is right or left-winged. To date, the only disputes about NY Post's article are that it was obtained through hacking. Nobody is disputing the accuracy of its contents. 12:17, 16 October 2020 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Skb7 (talk • contribs)

Yes, they are [1]. XOR'easter (talk) 17:53, 16 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hope you are all ready to remove all instances of "false" and "conspiracy theory" after the FBI confirms this story.

It's already been confirmed that Joe Biden was the Big Guy!

Requested move 15 October 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: WP:SNOW closed as not moved. As is said multiple times in the discussion, reliable sources nearly unanimously call it a conspiracy theory, and the "recent reporting" comes from a tabloid infamous for fabricated stories (and this story seems to be highly fabricated). It should also be pointed out that a conspiracy theory doesn't stop being one because the President of the United States believes in it; after all, Trump was one of the most high-profile believers in the Obama birth certificate conspiracy theories. Sceptre (talk) 21:30, 16 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]


Biden–Ukraine conspiracy theory → Biden–Ukraine allegations – Recent reporting on this issue necessitates a likely different title. As more questions than answers been brought up and as the news will continue to report on new developments, it is more appropriate to rename for now. Aviartm (talk) 20:05, 15 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose, things coming up in the news are conspiracy theory all their own. like, how can a laptop dropped at a shop in April 2019 have files with meta-data showing them created in December 2019? Seems like a trap to trick the Trump administration. Hyperbolick (talk) 21:07, 15 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose the title characterizes the situation appropriately. Numerous WP:RS for this article are calling it a conspiracy theory, and I don't see much in the way of a counterargument. AlexEng(TALK) 21:29, 15 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose: The "recent reporting" is exclusively from NY Post, a notoriously unreliable source. This article should never have been created in the first place for the evidently sole purpose of featuring this highly dubious content that is uncorroborated by any reliable source. This whole episode is a disgrace. soibangla (talk) 21:32, 15 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose We do not consider Russian disinformation propagated into an attempt at an October surprise to be "allegations". It's complete garbage, a hit piece, and to suggest any sort of validity to it is a false equivalence that compromises the neutrality of the project. – Muboshgu (talk) 22:01, 15 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose: An allegation is "a claim or assertion that someone has done something illegal or wrong, typically one made without proof". While the proof that exists may not be valid, it's proof at the very least. Snowycats (talk) 22:23, 15 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose I think the above !votes make the case well enough. The existing title sums up what reliable sources have to say. XOR'easter (talk) 22:41, 15 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Existing title is accurate and reflects usage in reliable sources. Kaldari (talk) 22:45, 15 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Originating from a damaged laptop left at a computer repair store, this is as sketchy and as much of a conspiracy theory as you can get. Liz Read! Talk! 23:35, 15 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Everything indicates this is a conspiracy theory that is part of a long-standing Trump/Russian disinformation campaign directed at Trump's supporters, who are notoriously uncritical and lap up this type of stuff without any fact-checking. -- Valjean (talk) 01:34, 16 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Calling it a "conspiracy theory", especially in the title, seems like Wikipedia is taking a side. Another more neutral title: Biden-Ukraine scandal. Mcrsftdog (talk) 05:15, 16 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
But it is baseless. No media organization has been able to view or verify that any of the documents are what the tabloid NYPost claims they are. And, according to CBS News, the computer repair person who said that Hunter Biden dropped off the computer is legally blind so he couldn't even identify who gave him the damaged laptop. This story is full of holes and the "evidence" not been verified by any reputable news organization. Liz Read! Talk! 05:21, 16 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
If something can't be verified as true or false, a better label would be "allegation." I'd refrain from calling it a "conspiracy theory" unless that's the label reliable sources are giving to it. Mcrsftdog (talk) 05:38, 16 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Considering that Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton are in fact secretly distant cousins descended from the same European royal house, would it then be a conspiracy theory or an allegation that the Clinton-Trump Family has illicitly masterminded all political developments in the US for the past three decades? Hyperbolick (talk) 06:50, 16 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
USA Today, NBC news, The New Yorker, and ABC News have all referred to it as a conspiracy theory, and thats just a quick glance. Greyjoy talk 10:43, 16 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Mcrsftdog, but that is the label reliable sources are giving to it. Also baseless, debunked, and an invention. —valereee (talk) 12:56, 16 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Our policies require editors to take the side of RS, as we are required to use them and give them due weight over baseless accusations from unreliable sources. We are a reality-based encyclopedia. When RS concur that the sky is no longer blue, we will also change our content to say it is no longer blue. Until then we favor sources which describe the reality that the sky is blue. -- Valjean (talk) 16:05, 16 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Support - Neutral language is preferred in all articles. Conspiracy theory should only be used if there is no dispute that it is false. Given that the current sitting president Donald Trump is calling this fact, it is far from a conspiracy theory. Skb7 (talk) 12:13, 16 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Donald Trump calling something a fact doesn't really mean all that much. Greyjoy talk 12:35, 16 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Skb7, hahahahahahahahahaha...whew! Good one! —valereee (talk) 12:52, 16 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
NPOV misunderstood to mean "neutral", as in "No Point of View". "Neutral language" is, according to NPOV policy, the language used in RS, even when biased. It is a serious NPOV violation to alter, censor, or neuter such language. Editors must remain neutral and document the biased language used in RS. Keep in mind that the truth is usually biased toward one side or the other. -- Valjean (talk) 16:09, 16 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support on grounds of neutral language. Guitarmankev1(TALK) 12:44, 16 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose as imprecise; RS are calling this a conspiracy theory and so should we. In fact they're calling it it debunked, baseless, and an invention. Using "neutral" language would be false balance. —valereee (talk) 12:51, 16 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong support - conspiracy theory is a derogatory term. Nowadays popular and once-reputable media are not so strongly bound to neutrality and restraint in reporting. This should not result in a trickling down consensus from these sites that whatever accusations have been made are a 'conspiracy theory'. Whatever it is (and right now it's just a whole bunch of ruckus), until the accusations have been made are proven or disproven they should be discussed and represented neutrally. Beaneater (talk) 13:32, 16 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose, for the same reasons that have already been mentioned above. Guycn2 (talk) 15:46, 16 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose it's a conspiracy theory, not an "allegation". To call it an allegation is false equivalency between WP:RS and propaganda.--Maleschreiber (talk) 20:04, 16 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Support Calling it a conspiracy theory is a clear violation of WP:NPOV. To quote from the NPOV article, "A neutral point of view neither sympathizes with nor disparages its subject (or what reliable sources say about the subject), although this must sometimes be balanced against clarity. Present opinions and conflicting findings in a disinterested tone. Do not editorialize. When editorial bias towards one particular point of view can be detected the article needs to be fixed." Do any of you reasonably believe that an editorial bias is not apparent on reading the article? Additionally, there are certainly WP:RS that use significantly softer terms than conspiracy theory and read as much more neutrally written articles, such as NY Times, BBC, AP, Snopes. Chandra.sarthak (talk) 20:50, 16 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Also, looking at Wikipedia:Article_titles#Non-judgmental_descriptive_titles also point towards the same direction --- conspiracy is far from non-judgmental, and similarly far from a neutral point of view Chandra.sarthak (talk) 20:56, 16 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Chandra.sarthak, it is not "editorial bias" to point out that these allegations meet the definition of a conspiracy theory. Did you notice the clause although this must sometimes be balanced against clarity? We need to be clear that there is no validity to these claims. See WP:FALSEBALANCE: Conspiracy theories, pseudoscience, speculative history, or plausible but currently unaccepted theories should not be legitimized through comparison to accepted academic scholarship. We cannot omit the conspiracy theory if it is the entire subject, but we ensure we don't legitimize it. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:58, 16 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

QAnon?

I removed a claim that the computer-shop owner was a QAnon supporter, which I was unable to substantiate. A believer in the Seth Rich conspiracy theory, yes, but not QAnon (according to anything I could find, and presuming that there is even a difference anymore, cf. the conspiracy singularity). The original source in that passage was this Business Insider story, which doesn't mention QAnon specifically. If anyone has a more direct connection that I overlooked, that would be much appreciated! Cheers, XOR'easter (talk) 00:29, 16 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

If RS say he believes in the Seth Rich murder conspiracy theory, that should be included. -- Valjean (talk) 00:40, 16 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The only source I see that explicitly says Macisaac supports QAnon is from WP:DAILYMAIL. – Muboshgu (talk) 00:52, 16 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
That's interesting. The Seth Rich bit is cited in the Business Insider story. XOR'easter (talk) 02:43, 16 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
No daylight there. Seth Rich conspiracy theory is a product of QAnon, or they are the same movement. Now, purely mathematically, what are the odds of somebody anonymously abandoning a laptop containing incriminating information on a Trump foe with the business run by either/or a QAnon supporter/Seth Rich conspiracy theorist? I suppose about equal to somebody abandoning a laptop with incriminating information about Donald Trump Jr at the Old Antifa Computer Repair Shop. Hyperbolick (talk) 02:52, 16 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I mean, if it’s really normal for people to care about and pay attention to the political views of the owner of each and every small-to-medium-sized business they patronize. Secondly, the conspiracy theory being “a product of QAnon” would not logically follow that everyone who believed in the Seth Rich theory learned it because they directly followed QAnon stuff. As for the article, we can mention that the guy who claims to have found the computer was a Seth Rich theory believer, as well as a tiny blurb on how the story came about, and if there’s a need to mention QAnon or whatever just say it’s popular with QAnon people. Discuss-Dubious (t/c) 12:58, 16 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Discuss-Dubious, Hunter Biden is a reasonably wealthy individual who has been under political attack for months; his father is the Presidential candidate of a party that has been the subject of repeated cyberattacks and data theft by malign actors, primarily foreign governments.
Put yourself in his shoes. Would you drop off an unencrypted laptop at a strip mall computer shop and leave it there without paying the bill? Seriously? That is not even slightly plausible.
Add to this the prior reporting of data theft by Russian intelligence and Giuliani and Bannon's statements about having emails, made some time ago, and what you have is a very obvious attempt at a reunion tour by Ben Ghazi and the Buttery Males. Guy (help! - typo?) 12:42, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
JzG, Ben Ghazi and the Buttery Males? Asartea Trick | Treat 13:29, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Asartea, yeah, they were huge from 2012-2016 but all ten tracks on the first album were indistinguishable and the difficult second album got some early buzz but turned out to be a complete bust. Guy (help! - typo?) 16:32, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
JzG, Thanks for the answer! Asartea Trick | Treat 17:24, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
LMAO! -- Valjean (talk) 19:11, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Censorship

How can you write the whole intro paragraph without citing any sources to say that it is fake.

Yet you deny my edit to state 'yet unproven allegations'. Any other thing that remotely hints that it might be true immediately gets redacted without a source. — Preceding unsigned comment added by WakkoYakko (talk • contribs) 07:02, 16 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That the same trick is being rerun ought to leave no doubt that Trump killed Seth Rich. Hyperbolick (talk) 07:49, 16 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@WakkoYakko: The issue is, Wikipedia only says things that a majority of sources agree on. The majority of sources in this situation are news media. A large portion of news media disagrees with this claim. Wikipedia cannot say things that are based on what we personally think because people disagree on what is the truth. We cannot do our own interpretations of the evidence. Wikipedia rules say that only the interpretation given by the majority of sources is what matters. The only way for the statements made in your edit to be accepted and not denied is for a large amount of news sources that Wikipedia respects to stick their neck out for the idea. However, a large amount of news media has come out against the idea. Wikipedia is ultimately the aftershock of what happens with sources that it respects, and this is true of most any topic. Discuss-Dubious (t/c) 12:45, 16 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Mention of Hunter Biden computer

The stories, sprung from the original NY Post article, mention a computer, but none of the sources provide any evidence of a computer. The words computer and FBI should not be in the same sentence. ˜˜˜˜ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tero111 (talk • contribs) 11:54, 16 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that we should be careful about the use of the word "computer", given that there is dispute about where the information originated. Skb7 (talk) 12:18, 16 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I had a Finnish keyboard on and tried to improvise the tilde last time. Tero111 (talk) 13:09, 16 October 2020 (UTC) No changes have been made to the two lines that them refer to Reference 54. NBC claims that there is an actual computer the FBI seized, but they are just quoting the NY Post article! The next line about FBI investigation is true, but only related to the conspiracy, not an actual laptop. Tero111 (talk) 12:22, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Discussing the term "False" in opening statement.

{Logic statement, ignoring WIKI policy and sorry for any people pinged}

  • Background

So let me drop a quick logic statement. Wikipedia is supposed to remain unbiased in articles. So in the opening statement, the article has "The Biden-Ukraine conspiracy theory is a series of false allegations". I undid the word false as the FBI still has the computer. Valjean undid my revision with the comment "Follow the RS in the body (IOW, pretty much NEVER revert content with such an editorial note without extensive discussion first). This article isn't just about the last New York Post matter." So I read the body section.

Now let me give some logic. About 90% (maybe 100%) of the sources in the Background section are liberal sources (In general, Go Biden, Boo Trump...Those sources). Logically, they would all say "FALSE!" to any comments about a democrat/liberal, because those are the people they support. For example, CNN just after the allegations (NY post talk) came out, immediately started saying they were false and then never reported it. Fox News (Using Logic, ignoring WIKI RS policies) is running with the story. HOWEVER, Fox News and the majority of non-liberal sources, are leaving the fact in that they might be true. Knowing how Wikipedia is supposed to be unbiased, should the body have some conservative sources? {LOGIC Statement: If you want to know why Wikipedia is saying 'False' to the allegations, it is because the article only has liberal sources, which say 'false'.} Elijahandskip (talk) 16:14, 16 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

VOTE

To keep this from turning into a major edit war, I am proposing a vote to see if the term false should be removed. [Vote up for 7 days, or until a clear consensus is reach].

Widely debunked is even better! soibangla (talk) 18:42, 16 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Agree, 'widely debunked' is the best phrasing, more neutral than the flat 'debunked' or 'false'. —valereee (talk) 17:02, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
That Trump chooses to manufacture and use conspiracy theories as part of his election strategy (and modus operandi in life) does not affect how we document RS-coverage of those theories. When fact-checkers describe them as false, then we do too. If they weren't false, we'd change the title of this article, because we only use such titles for false conspiracy theories. -- Valjean (talk) 18:47, 16 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
There is sourcing, such as what was presented by soibangla, that uses the word "debunked", which has the dictionary meaning of expose the falseness or hollowness of (a myth, idea, or belief). So, that'd be okay I think, if consensus were to develop for "debunked" over "false". The term "dubious" is also being used in sourcing, but is much more equivocal than "debunked" and therefore not as good. – Muboshgu (talk) 19:09, 16 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I'm open to synonyms. -- Valjean (talk) 20:10, 16 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
And of course, "An Eastern European expert in digital forensics who has examined some of the Ukrainian documents leaked to the New York Post told me he found anomalies — such as American-style capitalization of the names of ministries — that suggest fakery." https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-truth-behind-the-hunter-biden-non-scandal/2020/10/16/798210bc-0fd1-11eb-8074-0e943a91bf08_story.html
Remember that per Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources, "There is consensus that the New York Post is generally unreliable. A tabloid newspaper, editors criticise its lack of concern for fact-checking or corrections, including a number of examples of outright fabrication." 2601:2C0:C300:B7:FC53:F984:3F15:4B4C (talk) 23:45, 16 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Why was an RfC opened for this topic as this vote is underway? Because the vote here was not going someone's desired way for an article that did not have consensus to be created in the first place? soibangla (talk) 22:51, 16 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep Overwhelming weight of RS and repeatedly confirmed WP consensus text. SPECIFICO talk 02:03, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. Per earlier statements about RS. Asartea Talk | Contribs 11:45, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Remove. It is critical that this remains neutral. As of now we have no proof that this is false. The term "unclear" or something along those lines would be appropriate. The tone of this article is critical for anyone coming. The term "false" is absurd to apply to the article at this time. Outspoken users like :Valjean, whose page prominently contain the text "Donald Trump is a lunatic" are hardly users that we should be seeking input from. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:48f8:4028:78d:e947:e7af:a6b:19e7 (talk • contribs)
  • Cannot really vote on this as there is an assumption that there is a laptop and that FBI "still has it." Rather than have this entire thing in the article, I would remove most of the content and references, and only leave the alleged email that NY Post showed, and discussion of it and its dates and the actual dates of the PDF. Voting on allegations or false allegations is irrelevant if there is no computer. Tero111 (talk) 13:11, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Tero111, no, that would be a spectacularly bad idea, because the email is probably fake; instead we should wait for analytical reporting of the thing in its entirety, including the route by which the laptop arrived at a strip mall computer shop, whether any of the "emails" are verified (the Biden campaign has explicitly refuted at least one claim with backup from official records) and the like.
    WP:NOTNEWS. Guy (help! - typo?) 17:44, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Remove This is a clear example What Wikipedia is not. Using a page of Wikipedia for bias political fighting and turning "allegations" into "conspiracy theory" without being supported by the overwhelming majority of reliable secondary sources would downgrade Wiki reliability and neutrality and therefore should be avoided. This is also not a place to "vote" but to gain consensus. Tritomex (talk) 17:52, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Tritomex, do you have reliable sources that are calling it an allegation rather than a conspiracy theory? Because other editors have said the opposite. —valereee (talk) 20:23, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

It's important to understand that even if the purported emails were real (which is not at all certain, since the evidence points extremely strongly to a Russian disinformation operation coordinated with Giuliani), the claim would still be false and debunked.

All this was explored in excruciating detail during the impeachment hearings. The facts are clear:

  • Viktor Shokin was corrupt. The first bipartisan motion to remove him was filed shortly after his appointment, and when he was finally removed by an overwhelming majority vote of the Ukrainian Parliament in March 2016 his associates were found with bags of jewels and multiple passports of his.
  • Viktor Shokin was not threatening to prosecute Burisma (unless perhaps he was making extortion threats, which is the clear implication in the events leading to Shokin's ouster [2]).
  • Investigation of Burisma was dormant. Replacing Shokin made it more likely that the investigation would be reactivated, as indeed it was in 2019.
  • The investigation of Burisma relates to events prior to 2014, when Hunter Biden was hired as an adviser on corporate ethics policies in what appears to have been an attempt to at least give the appearance of cleaning up the company's former image, as attention focused on Mykola Zlochevsky, its owner since 2011 and a crony of Yanukovych.
  • Removing Shokin was official policy of the United States, the EU, the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund. He was not alone: the office of Prosecutor General had been held to be corrupt under numerous previous holders. The pressure was not to remove Shokin, specifically, but to remove corruption and hire instead a prosecutor who would enforce the law and deliver a business environment free from corruption, so that Western companies, who have to comply with laws forbidding foreign bribery, could to business.

Nothing about the timeline stacks up. Nothing about the emails stacks up. And the idea that an unencrypted MacBook belonging to a man who has been under intense scrutiny for years, whose father is the Presidential candidate for the Democratic Party, would be left at a strip mall computer shop rather than taken to an Apple store or simply trashed and rebuilt from iCloud is so very implausible that you have to wonder who would even think of it. Guy (help! - typo?) 23:08, 16 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Not to mention, dropping a laptop to a guy who just so happens to be legally blind and can't identify who actually dropped it, who just so happens to somehow connect to Rudy Giuliani, who worked with Steve Bannon to pass a copy of the hard drive to the NYPost because the legally blind guy decided that he wanted to give Giuliani a copy in addition to supposedly handing it to the FBI? That's an awful lot of "coincidences" there. It has all the hallmarks of a plot to disseminate something fake while laundering the source... 2601:2C0:C300:B7:FC53:F984:3F15:4B4C (talk) 00:02, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Remove the word 'false' and add a second paragraph detailing the dubious nature of the emails. It looks very bad as it is, a conservative hitpiece waiting to happen. Pietrus69 (talk) 17:10, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

How would hiring a sitting US vice president's son (and one in charge of Ukraine policy, on that - Obama's "point man") be "cleaning up" Burisma's image? It has all the appearance of a bribe, even if it's unclear what, if anything, Burisma received in return. 209.6.169.178 (talk) 18:15, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Bannon

This adds more poison to this "story"...

We may be looking at the old classic Breitbart/Bannon/O'Keefe scam strategy that has so often been busted. These people are desperate. -- Valjean (talk) 19:08, 16 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I imagine that investigative journalists will be putting together the true chain of events of who got what, when, where, and how. It may not come out until after the election (surely what Bannon and Giuliani were counting on). – Muboshgu (talk) 19:10, 16 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Valjean, yup. [3], for example, and [4]. Plus of course [5].
We will have to see what the WP:RS's say. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 18:21, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Fox News

The article needs to include information recently disclosed which suggests that a person or persons who where noted to be on the email chains of certain alleged Hunter Biden emails have substantiated that the messages where in fact authentic.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/hunter-biden-china-email-source-verifies — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:E000:1217:49A9:C8B5:FB13:948E:E7A7 (talk) 04:14, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Has this source explained how meta-data of an email supposedly written in 2017 shows it to actually have been written in December 2019? Hyperbolick (talk) 05:27, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The emails were later exported to PDF after the laptop was dropped off. It's the metadata of these PDFs that are dated 2019, not the emails. Please read more carefully as to not spread misinformation. Databased (talk) 18:59, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
First, Fox is not reliable for political claims. Second, there are many more sources that absolutely refute this claim. So: No. Guy (help! - typo?) 12:13, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 17 October 2020

KEbabs 78.56.237.238 (talk) 15:28, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Asartea Trick | Treat 15:31, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The requested change must also be uncontroversial, so make sure that is settled first. -- Valjean (talk) 16:33, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Proposal: Delete article and take the small amount of relevant info and add it to Biden Campaign article

There is already a Trump-Ukraine scandal article that has most of the facts related to Giuliani and the Bidens. There us also a Hunter Biden article in Wikipedia.

I would propose that the current article is not notable. It can be summarized, with the minimal references in the Biden campaign article

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Biden_2020_presidential_campaign

right under the Trump Ukraine thing. Make a section called "The 2020 Giuliani and Associates accusations." That way it is clear they all come from Giuliani and NY Post.

The current article makes it look like there is a valid conspiracy and an FBI investigation into some laptop. A very neutral description of this entire sequence of events is given by NPR here:

https://www.npr.org/2020/10/17/924506867/analysis-questionable-n-y-post-scoop-driven-by-ex-hannity-producer-giuliani

This matter is a trivial item in the big scheme, but some remnants of this will remain in Wikipedia into the Biden presidency, which is likely the outcome of the election. The actual Hunter Biden working for Burisma is well covered already. But currently the article we are discussing is only adding to conspiracy thinking.

Tero111 (talk) 17:03, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Tero111, No objections here, you are very welcome to nominate for deletion. Guy (help! - typo?) 19:54, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Scroll up. There was a split (Premature) vote that lasted 24 hours.Elijahandskip (talk) 19:54, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Meanwhile, rename to Giuliani-NY Post conspiracy theory. SPECIFICO talk 20:16, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
NOTE: Only administrators can have to move the page due to highly controversial and visible page, so any users that want to move the page please conducted using Request move tool. I also asking admin to imposing 1RR for this article but it will wait pre-condition that impose 1RR. 110.137.170.83 (talk) 20:31, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Should probably remove the word 'false' from the opening paragraph for the time being, and a second paragraph

As this is a developing story, and one which has yet to really bear out, the word 'false' without a solid source is almost certainly going to lead to negative attention.

I suggest removing 'false' and adding a second explanatory paragraph to the intro suggesting the uncertain origin of the recent emails released by the Post. Pietrus69 (talk) 17:04, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Pietrus69, Please see the discussion above at #Discussing the term "False" in opening statement.. Asartea Trick | Treat 17:26, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 17 October 2020 (2)

Change it to an “ongoing political conspiracy.” It is intellectually dishonest to say that the allegations have been proven false already as the investigation is ongoing. Until proven otherwise it is neither true nor untrue. 2600:1011:B019:6773:99D6:5B2:477A:FBF (talk) 18:18, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done Please see the request for comment above discussing this exact thing: #Discussing the term "False" in opening statement. Any change will be implemented as a result of consensus in that discussion. GorillaWarfare (talk) 18:45, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]


Clarification needed

As written, the article does not just deny the NY Post story and the dubious allegation of Biden's causing Shokin's firing, but takes the significantly stronger position that any and all corruption allegations against the Bidens with regard to Ukraine, or even the idea that Hunter Biden was unqualified, constitute a conspiracy theory. Yet world socialist website (no right-wing source), while writing "This account is not very credible, but there does not as yet appear to be any substance to the charges by Trump & Co. that the vice president intervened to block the prosecution of his son’s company in 2016. " also states "But Ukraine is where Hunter Biden has apparently cashed in most extensively, trading on his father’s name and position" and "In the search for board members with the right contacts, Zlochevsky recruited Devon Archer, Biden’s business partner, the former president of Poland and ex-Stalinist Aleksander Kwaśniewski, and then Hunter Biden himself. Biden was brought on nominally to provide advice on corporate governance, although he never performed any actual legal work for the company". (article at https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2019/10/01/bide-o01.html) I think the article should be rewritten to clarify that it's about the dubious Shokin and NY Post claims, and not about any and all corruption related to the fact of Hunter Biden's employment at Burisma; from a certain perspective, his salary in and of itself was a bribe. 209.6.169.178 (talk) 19:05, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The NY Post story exists. All coverage in reliable independent sources casts serious doubt on its veracity, in every possible respect: the provenance of the laptop, the identity of the person who dropped it off, the authenticity of the content. This should be read in the context of a known ongoing FBI investigation into Russian hacking efforts directed at Hunter Biden and Burisma, which was notified to the White House some time ago, and the similar fact pattern around the Kremlin's attempt to smear Emanuel Macron in 2016, to say nothing of the DNC email hacks. This all fits neatly with the known MO of the GRU.
The idea that Joe Biden intervened to have Shokin fired to protect Burisma was extensively investigated in the impeachment hearings and shown to be completely inconsistent with all independently documented facts. Shokin was removed by a huge majority vote in the Ukrainian parliament after an investigation into extortion of another company led to associates who were found with large amounts of money and documents and multiple passports belonging to Shokin. The entire Western world wanted Shokin removed: the World Bank, the IMF, the EU and the US were calling for his removal long before Joe Biden got involved, because it was impossible for Western companies to do business in Ukraine due to our widely prevalent anti-bribery laws. You know these laws are an impediment to doing business in the Middle East and Eastern Europe, because Trump has complained about them in public. The timeline doesn't work for the underlying conspiracy theory any more than it works for the supposed laptop.
The biggest puzzle is why they thought adding Bannon and Giuliani to the mix would make it seem more credible. I guess they skimped on their research. Guy (help! - typo?) 19:51, 17 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
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