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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Daishokaioshin (talk | contribs) at 22:17, 5 January 2007 (The move thing has been resolved, so...). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Toriyama named him "Burdock" in the manga

FUNimation and earlier dubbs named him "Bardock". I thought that Wikipedia is supposed to go by written text names. In this case, the Viz manga names source. This applied for the Krillin article to be Kuririn, Tien Shinhan article to be titled Tenshinhan, etc. Even in the translated English manga he is called "Burdock". Shouldn't we go by this? ----Power level(Dragon Ball) 15:46, 21 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

We should use the most correct information available - for all Wikipedia articles. For anime and manga articles specifically, the guidelines are to use hepburn romanizations of the original names, unless another romanization (that is also 'correct') is more frequently used (for example, Goku rather than Gokū), or if the name is derived from an English word (for example, Trunks rather than Torankusu).

I'm trying to figure this out right now. I've got a Super Barcode Wars card that says "Barduck" http://www.dbzcollection.fr/barcode/cartes/barcode3/images/96_jpg.jpg -- DesireCampbell 16:23, 21 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'll continue the discussion above... -- DesireCampbell 16:32, 21 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I had this same discussion on the Majin Buu article. I suggested changing the article to Djinn Boo (because I thought that we were going by the English manga names) and it worked, but it was reverted shortly after. I really don't know what determines the name of a Dragon Ball article, but what we should be doing is using the English manga names for all DB articles, not a manga name on one page (Son Goku, for example) and an anime name on another (like Bardock). We need to come up with some sort of agreement on how the DB articles are named (if there isn't one already). // Sasuke-kun27 20:24, 21 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
It's been discussed, were going to have to use the Viz Manga names, since the manga has the highest source of canon in fiction, hence, Bardock should definitely be changed to Burdock (Dragon Ball). // Power levelStacy's Mom 21:21, 21 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps it should be discussed again. This blind adherence to the Viz translation is flawed. There are clear guidelines for Wikipedia already, we should use those.

MOS:Japan related articles

The name should be a hepburn romanization of the original name, unless another correct romanization is more well known (ie: Gouk rather than Gokū), or if the word is derived from an English word (ie: Trunks rather than Torankusu).

So, in this case, Burdock may be the correct article name, but not because it's used by Viz. Viz has many problems with its Dragon Ball release, including erroneous names. If all the DB articles are using the Viz translations instead of Wiki guidelines, they should all be re-checked to make sure the article names are correct.

-- DesireCampbell 23:54, 21 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ever heard of the vegetable, burdock? That is an English word, and Toriyama has said it's derived from that same vegetable (just like all of the other Saiyans, such as Kakarrot (carrot), Vegeta (the word "vegetable), Nappa (the cabbage), Raditz (radittsu in Japanese, derived from radisshu, or radish), Tullece (lettuce), Paragas (asparagas), and Broli (broccoli).

Uh huh... and the discussion here is whether the name is simply 'Burdock' or if it's slightly different, or "derived", from the word 'burdock'. Some Saiyan names are exactly like the word (Nappa) while others are slight variations on the word (Broli). From what we've learned, it's probably 'Burdock' and not 'Bardock' or 'Barduck'. -- DesireCampbell 22:54, 22 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well, Landmark says that the vegetable is pronounced baadakku, like Burdock's name, so it should just be spelled Burdock. Chibi Gohan 23:34, 22 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Could we get a quick scan of that? -- DesireCampbell 00:33, 23 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I don't own a scanner. Perhaps this could be discussed on DaizenshuuEX (since people like Steve and Julian are there). Chibi Gohan 19:28, 27 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Another section about the name? Joy!

So, here's what I've got:

"Burdock" -- which would be pronounced bur dock
バードック -- baa do ku
バーダック -- baa dah ku
(Bur)ダ(ck) -- bur dah k
Burdock

Yeah, so, "yay, whole lotta useless work".

So 'burdock' would normally be バードック in katakana, and Toriyama (apparently) decided to change one of the characters (so it's a reference to burdock not just 'burdock'). But the kana he used instead of ド was ダ, which (with a 'k' sound added on) sound exactly like 'dock'. The romanized name should reflect the original spelling and show the change from that word - but it already does (Just like Vegeta and Videl, but that's another explanation). Unless someone wants to romanize it as 'Burdahk' or 'Burdawk', I suggest 'Burdock'.

That said, 'Bardock' is a correct romanization, but doesn't hold as true to the original word.

So, who's up for a Move Request to Burdock (Dragon Ball)? -- DesireCampbell 16:05, 25 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Where's your source that says burdock is pronounced バードック (baadokku) as opposed to バーダック (baadakku)? Chibi Gohan 19:27, 27 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well, not much of a source really. I don't think 'a guy' is really much of a source. Oliver Hague, over on the DaizEX forum, and I have been debating it for a while. バードック is (apparently) a much more common 'spelling' for 'burdock' than バーダック. A quick google shows DBZ or other anime sites for バーダック and 'herb' stores and cooking stores for バードック. バーダック could be a transliteration for 'burdock' but it's just not the most common one, I guess. --DesireCampbell 20:02, 27 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I support the move to Burdock (Dragon Ball). ----Power level(Dragon Ball) 15:32, 28 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I also think it should be moved to Burdock (Dragon Ball). And note that we have not only the VIZ translation backing the move, but also Steve Simmons, who is a hell of a lot more accurate than whoever writes the dub scripts. Chibi Gohan 19:12, 29 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Also, does anyone know how to remove those alternate names? When I try to delete them, it leaves a blank space in the article where the alternate names should go. And nobody says Budock or Badock anyway, not to mention the fact that they're incorrect. Chibi Gohan 19:16, 29 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with the move to Burdock (Dragon Ball), I just don't want to do it right now. *meh* If someone else does the work, I'll vote it, but I'm not too worried about it. The same goes for the info box. The whole thing needs to be redone, for all the DB pages. The alternate names thing is useless and confusing (there should be a whole section detailing the name). Other anime character info boxes are better, I'm looking at possible reworks. The same goes for the template at the bottom. There's one for characters, one for the anime, I think there's a third too. All the more reason to get the Project up and running. --DesireCampbell 20:08, 29 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

So can I move the page from Bardock to Burdock (Dragon Ball)?

I might just move the page since Power level (Dragon Ball) (me), DesireCampbell, and Chibi Gohan want to have it move to Burdock (Dragon Ball). Any objections before I attempt to move it? Power level (Dragon Ball) 15:23, 30 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I doubt there'd be any objection. But I think that after moving the page the new Talk page should have a note about why the name was changed. Just in case the issue us brought up again. --DesireCampbell 16:31, 30 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Cool. Can you perform the move then? I don't wanna start a fuss or rivalry or anything here. Power level (Dragon Ball) 17:01, 30 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Will do. -- Oops. Can't. The page already exist - so I can't move it apparently. --DesireCampbell 17:50, 30 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm, I just tried too several times, and it won't work? Would you contact an administrator to perform the move then? I've gotta get something to eat... Power level (Dragon Ball) 18:00, 30 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I went ahead and did it. If anybody comes along and objects, we can talk about it, but it seems fine for now. I also fixed the resulting double redirects and the link at Burdock (disambiguation). Someone might want to edit the article to reflect the new title. -GTBacchus(talk) 21:45, 30 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! I'll edit the page now. --DesireC ampbell 22:00, 30 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I know I'm coming into this late, but there was no Requested Move posted, so I didn't notice. I really disagree with this title. Almost no one in the United States knows this character by this name. A search on Google for "Burdock Dragonball" shows only 1440 hits, compared to almost 200K hits for the same with "Bardock". The only reference to "Burdock" in the US is in one line of one page of the VIZ manga, but "Burdock" is the spelling and name preferred in the Anime series (as dubbed/edited by FUNimation) and the TV movie (also by FUNimation). According to WP:NAME, we should Use the most common name of a person or thing that does not conflict with the names of other people or things.. "Burdock" fails this twice: first by requiring the disambiguation from Burdock (the bush) and second by not being the name most commonly associated with the character. I agree that "Burdock" might be a more "true" transliteration, but Wikipedia policy is often to choose the more well-known name for the title, even against a more "correct" one. JRP 23:14, 4 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Good points all around. And I agree that "Bardock" is probably more well known than "Burdock" but I'm torn as to whether that's enough to warrant it's use or not. WP:MOS-JP#Romanisation says we should use the English spelling for transliterations from katakana, but WP:anime#Sections says we should use official romanizations if possible. Choosing one distribution company's translation over another is a wrought with difficulty (and I don't want to get into that right now). I'm just unsure what is more important: recognizability, or correct information. "Bardock" is a decent transliteration of the katakana, but it's obviously not what it's supposed to be. And "Burdock" isn't so far off that noone would figure out who's being referred to.
      • Choosing a name based on official translations has it's faults.
      • Choosing a name based on straight transliteration has it's faults
      • Choosing a name based on what's popular has it's faults
If whatever way we translate the name is imperfect and can draw criticism, then I think we should at least try and go for the most correct name. --DesireCampbell 00:27, 5 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The official Wikipedia policy is Generally, article naming should give priority to what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature.. Official policy doesn't specify correctness, though that is a good goal and a good argument could be made for it-- but it's not policy. WP:MOS-JP is considered a guideline, but I'm not sure I follow your reading of it. I think it's more ambiguous than you suggest, that section just reiterates standard rules for how to write the Romanization, which we follow properly in the infobox. WP:Anime is not officially either a guideline or a policy, so it's recommendations should only apply in the absence of other direction. I'm not suggesting this just because it's "policy"-- I'm not that bureacratic, but it seems overall like the better choice. JRP 01:15, 5 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Name section and other fixes

First, I'd like to ask anyone who knows how to archive everything above. The page is cluttered and needs to be cleaned. I'd do it, I just don't know how.

Secondly, I'm sure everyone means well, but the opening paragraphs where it says that "Burdock's name is a pun on 'burdock', which is an herb", the second "burdock" should stay lowercase, it's not a proper noun.

Now on to the Name section. Perhaps I've just not fleshed it out enough to make it understand able -but I'm worried that a long drawn out explanation would clutter the article. I'll expand on the explanation and ask y'all to point out where it should be cut down.

Name

Burdock's name is, like all other Saiyans, a pun on a plant. In this case, the herb burdock. In Japanese foreign words are transliterated into a special alphabet called "katakana". These characters are very much like English letters in that they are sounds without meanings (as opposed to Kanji which are whole words in a single character). The word "burdock" transliterated into katakana is バードック (bādokku pronounced like "baa doe coo") but the character's name is written as バーダック (bādakku pronounced like "baa dah coo"), changing the do character to da. This character change actually makes the kana sound more like "Burdock" to English speakers than it did before, and that makes it difficult to accurately romanize the word to show the pun. Normally one would simply spell out the word exactly as the kana sounds, in this case badakku. But knowing the word is based on an English word it is common to use that spelling if at all possible. The problem arises in the character change from ド (do) to ダ (da). To show the change the romanization should mirror the change as well. The ダ (da) character replaced the "do" part of "burdock", so it would seem obvious to change the word to "burdack" - but such a change would alter the pronunciation of the change. The new spelling "burdack" doesn't have the same syllable sound a ダ (da). In fact, the only English spelling that would keep the same sound would be "burdawk" or "burdock".

So the word could conceivably be romanized as "Burdock", "Barduck", "Badack" or any combination of those syllables.

It's just that it seems a bit redundant, but taking things out makes it more ambiguous. I think most of the explanation about katakana can be taken out (a link to katakana should suffice) but I'm not sure how indepth the explanation the romanization should go. --DesireCampbell 21:51, 1 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was No consensus. Duja► 10:27, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Burdock (Dragon Ball) → Bardock — Article recently renamed (outside of WP:RM), but new name does not follow WP:NAME. According to that policy, we should Use the most common name of a person or thing that does not conflict with the names of other people or things. "Burdock" as a name is only used in the VIZ manga translation, once, for a character that appears in two panels. There are only 1440 Google hits on "Burdock Dragonball". "Bardock", the original name of this article, is the name used consistently in the anime (as translated by FUNimation), is used in the title of the TV movie (also by FUNimation), and used in nearly every US tie-in product. "Bardock Dragoball" receives 200,000 Google hits. I believe this name was chosen due to a mis-reading of WP:MOS-JP, which anyway is only a guideline while WP:NAME is official policy. This change would also allow us to use just "Bardock" as the article name, without the parenthetical disambiguation which makes linking more cumbersome. JRP 06:15, 6 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Reasons for using Bardock:

  • Bardock is the most common variation of the name. (1400 Google hits for Burdock vs 200,000) (See also Wikipedia:Search engine test)
  • Bardock is in the name of a title of a movie in the US: Bardock: Father of Goku. Using "Burdock" as the character name would make that article quite odd.
  • "Bardock" requires no disambiguation on Wikipedia, while "Burdock" does. This makes linking more difficult and less natural.
  • "Bardock" is the name used in both the "cut" and "uncut" FUNimation-translated anime series, including in the title of the movie. In contrast, Burdock is used only once in the VIZ-translated manga.
  • In the US, the "Bardock" name precedes Burdock by several years.
  • Both names are reasonable romanizations of the Japanese. While "Burdock" may express the pun better, that's a subjective test. We have more objective criteria, though WP:NAME, to use.
  • Akira Toriyama chose "Barduck" for the name, not either of these two options, so neither is more "correct" as far as the creator of the work is concerned. Most Toriyama-English names (such as Gokuh, etc.) aren't used in the US, but it at least doesn't provide any weight against this option, either.
Point of clarification: Toriyama never wrote the name out in English. The name was only ever written as バーダック. The only other reference we have is a short interview where he said the pun was on gobô (the Japanese word for burdock). "Barduck" is used on Japanese "Super Barcode Wars" cards. --DesireCampbell 06:52, 6 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • WP:NAME is the official policy on naming. Simply put, "Burdock" fails test 1.6: Use common names of persons and things. Regardless of your views on the above, we need to follow this policy. —the preceding comment is by Gene Nygaard (talk • contribs) Gene Nygaard: Please sign your posts!.

Survey

Add  * '''Support'''  or  * '''Oppose'''  on a new line followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~~~~.
  • Strongly Oppose: This has already been decided since no one argued about it anymore. Wikipedia goes strictly by Hepburn romanizations, name puns, and manga texts and more; not anime filler specials, not toys/collectibles, not ads or merchandise, and most definitely NOT any fan related sites. Power level (Dragon Ball) 15:33, 6 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment Actually, I think it's very clear that Wikipedia uses the common names for things. And "fan related" sites hardly relates to the official licensees of the property, in this case FUNimation. Please read WP:NAME, or another official policy, and show me the passage that says "strictly by Hepburn romanizations". JRP 16:42, 6 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment Maybe you don't remember, but do you know why Cui (Dragon Ball) was moved to Kiwi (Dragon Ball)? That moved was made by KojiDude because of User:Zarbon's persistant obsession with the character. KojiDude had a very good point -->[[1]]... Wikipedia uses ENGLISH MANGA NAMES! An example would be Tienshinhan--->Tenshinhan, Krillin--->Kuririn, Frieza--->Freeza, etc. Do you get the point? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Power level (Dragon Ball) (talk • contribs)
      • Who do you think started that policy? Go see who moved Muten-Roshi and Kuririn back in 2004. Look at the debates we had back then. But, in the last two years, I've done a lot more editing on Wikipedia, outside of just the Dragon Ball articles and outside of fandom. And, you know, I've really come to appreciate the simpler policies. Though I appreciate the irony that I'm now effectively arguing with precedent that I helped to start. :) JRP 17:47, 6 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • We use Shinigami (Bleach) rather than VIZ's "Soul Reaper" and zanpakutō rather than "Soul Slayer". I'm sure that there are many more examples. Dekimasu 05:48, 12 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
        • Hey guys, let's be civil about this eh? And can we hold discussion in that 'discussion' section right below us? Rules be damned. We should try and collaborate here to figure out what would be the best thing to name the page and the character. Which one is better? Should we use one for the article title and another for the body of the page? I don't know, let's talk about it. --DesireCampbell 18:42, 6 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support use common English name when one exists. Also, the fact that there has been a past debate doe not mean that this debate can't take place. Consensus can change. Jay32183 00:11, 11 December 2006 (UTC) Abstain Since the two official translations of the anime (Funimation dub and Funimation subtitles) use different spellings I cannot make a claim about what "common English" is. Jay32183 04:27, 13 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Bardock will be the most recognized name per Jay's arguments. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 21:41, 11 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support, no comment. -- RattleMan 21:46, 11 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - see below - DesireCampbell 22:26, 11 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support, it is admitted that Bardock far more commonly used. That's all that really matters. Gene Nygaard 05:11, 12 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. MOS-JP notes, "For transliterations from katakana, use the English spelling if available (i.e., Thunderbird (サンダーバード Sandābādo) instead of Sandābādo)". "Bardock" may be common, but it is not printworthy. Redirects are cheap and "Bardock" can redirect here. Dekimasu 05:48, 12 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    Comment That only applies if there's no English loan word to use in its place. Don't selectively quote guidelines to try and make your point seem valid. WP:NAME dicates that Bardock be used. Being a policy, it supercedes every other guideline that you cite. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 06:05, 12 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    I wasn't selectively quoting guidelines to make a point... I was reading the guidelines to select a point. I have no personal investment in this page or interest in Dragon Ball. There is no English "loan word" to use in its place. "Bardock" is not an English word, and "Sandābādo" is not an English word. This name, however, is an English word. And I'll quote again, from WP:NAME: "When there is no long-established history of usage of the term, more consideration should be given to the correctness of translation, rather than frequency of usage." Dekimasu 03:59, 13 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    Actually, it doesn't. WP:NAME is great, but it's meant only as a general guideline, and other guidelines should be used when they are geared more towards a specific topic. As such, we should focus on established practices (if any at all). These would be WP:MOS-JA and WP:Anime. Both say we should use standard English spelling for loan words, and official romanji spellings for names. The character's name is a pun on a loan word, and I believe that the most common spelling for that plant is burdock, not "bardock". "Burdock" is also Funimation's offical romanization of the name, as seen on the Japanese subtitles on all current DVD releases. Beyond that, WP:Ignore all rules says any guideline or policy can, an should, be ignored if such a rule prevents the article from becoming "better". --DesireCampbell 06:19, 12 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    Like in other moves, you simply don't know what you're talking about. What part of "This page is an official policy on the English Wikipedia." escapes your notice? Also, don't try that ignore all rules defense, because titling an article a single letter different does not in any way hamper improving the article. You can easily mention a single pun on an original name with a differently named article. Finally, Funimation wouldn't title a movie "Bardock" then use Burdock as his name. Use some common sense. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 06:25, 12 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    "What part of "This page is an official policy on the English Wikipedia." escapes your notice?"
    Obviously not this part: "It is important to note that these are conventions, not rules carved in stone." Oh, and "Japanese See: Wikipedia:Manual of Style (Japan-related articles)".
    "Also, don't try that ignore all rules defense, because titling an article a single letter different does not in any way hamper improving the article."
    That's your opinion. The word choice "improv[e]" is intentionally ambiguous. It's meant to promote debate over what is an "improvement". You think that naming the page "Bardock" would be an improvement, I think "Burdock" would be an improvement. We should debate this.
    "Finally, Funimation wouldn't title a movie "Bardock" then use Burdock as his name. Use some common sense."
    Firstly, Funimation isn't really one for making a lot of sense, but they are good for one thing (if nothing else): brilliant Japanese subtitles. All dual language releases include a English subtitle track translated from the original script by Steven J. Simmons. These translations serve as Funimation's official romanji spellings for the series. The dub uses certain names, the subtitle track uses others. Is it that you doubt the subtitle track says "Burdock"? [2] [3]
    If you would like to debate the issue (which I would prefer) there's a "discussion" section just below this. --DesireCampbell 07:12, 12 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strongly Oppose As per reasons stated by Desire Campbell. Daishokaioshin 07:45, 12 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    Comment Even if everyone on Wikipedia wanted the name "Bardock", those that agree with DesireCampbell would win this survey because of those two movie amazing movie scans, as well as the manga panel on Burdock's article page. So, there you have it. Anyone else wanna argue about the name change? ----Power level(Dragon Ball) 15:24, 12 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • I assume this is the scan from the manga that has the name spelled out, but your link is broken. If it were that easy though, I'd point out that a DVD cover is much more obvious, common, and recognizable than anything you could point out, in one panel, of one translation, of the manga. (And what's up with your sig, is this an odd attempt at making Stacy's Mom the most linked to page on Wikipedia? Careful, that almost looks like vandalism to me.) JRP 04:36, 13 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed broken manga link. By the way, that DVD cover title is spelled wrong (somewhat) if you compare it to DesireCampbell's "Burdock" proof -->[4] [5] Forget about the Stacy's Mom link, that was just, wierd... Power level (Dragon Ball) 16:26, 13 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
To clear up the apparent confusion; "Bardock" is the name given to the character in the English dub - "Burdock" is the name use in the Japanese translated subtitles which, according to WP:Anime we should be using.--DesireCampbell 01:01, 17 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

Add any additional comments:

To clear up a bit of confusion: The WP:MOS-JP and WP:Anime guidelines state we should use official romanizations if they aren't terrible. "Bardock" is a perfectly fine romanization for バーダック - it's just not the most correct one. And any guideline or policy can (and should) be ignored if such rules would happen the article from becoming "better". In my opinion, "better" means more accurate. And (factually, not my opinion,) "Burdock" is more accurate. I cannot, in good conscience, recommend using an incorrect name used only by a third-party distributor. --DesireCampbell 06:46, 6 December 2006 (UTC) '-edit-' That said, I can understand the arguments presented above, and agree that they are all valid arguments, but I still feel that the most important aspect should be accuracy of information. --DesireCampbell 06:55, 6 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I know what you mean, I was the one that argued for "Kuririn" back in 2004 and have since had a change of heart after being on Wikipedia for a while. But, let's look at the guidelines you cited. In the "Article Name" section of WP:Anime, the recommendation is Name your pages in English and place the native transliteration on the first line of the article unless the native form is more commonly recognized by readers than the English form. See: WP:NAME. That's all I can find in there about naming and that says nothing about official romazations there. (And anyway, "Bardock" is also an official romazation, not a bastardization like "Hercule". Let's not touch that argument.) In WP:MOS-JP, there's a section on "Romanisation", but it only stipulates the romanization scheme to use when writing Japanese words. BUT, it also recommends that you follow Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English) which covers this case nicely: If a native spelling uses different letters than the most common English spelling (eg, Wien vs. Vienna), only use the native spelling as an article title if it is more commonly used in English than the anglicized form.. Again, the recommendation is the "common" name and not the "correct" one. Can you point out the specific guidelines that you are citing? JRP 06:58, 6 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
From WP:Anime#Sections:
"Characters should be called what the series officially states their romaji names as."
That is, what the distribution company (or if possible the original production company) officially states the original name to be. That would mean "Kaio" instead of "King Kai". The point here is to use official romanizations (even if they are little known, or possibly incorrect).
"If that does not exist, use what they are named in the most recent or popular English translation, if it exists, isn't egregiously bad, and is the generally-used name (a google test is appropriate here)."
If there is no official romanization, then use the distribution company's name, if it isn't terrible (that is, it can be bad, but not completely off) and is used by English speaking fans.
"Otherwise, use a literal transliteration."
If there's no official romanization from the production company and there's no English distribution company (or if they decide not to name the character, maybe?) then we should use a standard Hepburn romanization.
The point here is to use English first but keeping romanizations of the original names above dub names. If there are no romanji names to be had, then we should use official dub names (unless they're absolutely terrible). And if we have no English to base the name on at all, treat it exactly like any other Japanese term on Wikipedia.


"Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English) which covers this case nicely: If a native spelling uses different letters than the most common English spelling (eg, Wien vs. Vienna), only use the native spelling as an article title if it is more commonly used in English than the anglicized form."
This case is a bit different. It's always written in Japanese (except for that card) so the native spelling isn't in Latin letters. If anything, the "native spelling" would be Bādakku, and "Burdock" would be vastly more common.
And, again, I'm not trying to use guidelines to back up one position or the other. There are plenty of reasons to use "Bardock" and there are plenty of reasons to use "Burdock" - I just think that the most compelling of which is "Burdock" is the most correct romanization.
--DesireCampbell 09:29, 6 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]



So, why should we choose one name over the other? We should choose a correct, common, official, English name. But there are some problems with that:

  • The correct name is "Burdock". I can show you step-by-step why that's the correct name. But, that name is perhaps less common than others.
  • The most common name is probably "Bardock". The problem then is that it's not the most correct name
  • The 'official name' idea is best rule to go by usually - but in this case there are so many different English versions that it would be unfair to choose one over the other. Not counting the out-of-print adaptations, there are at least five different English versions. There's the Funimation uncut dub, the Blue Water dub, that other UK dub (where Piccolo is "Big Green"), a Mailasian English dub, and the Viz translation. But even then, we can find more rather recent English versions too: Viz has had two or three other versions of Dragon Ball released (with varying degrees of censorship), Funimation's got an official Japanese-translated subtitle track, the original censored Ocean dub, the old Pioneer movie releases, and then there's the video games... and I'm sure I'm forgetting some. Beyond that, there's problems with all the adaptations: The Funi dubs are rather inconsistent with script accuracy and names (both of characters and techniques), and have had censorship issues in the past (though that's not much of a problem now). Viz has had multiple releases of the manga, and has made rather odd translation choices, as well as using completely wrong names, and visual censorship. Though, the Japanese-translated subtitles on the Funi dual-audio releases are very consistent (as they should be, all being done by the same translator).
  • "Burdock" again would be the choice for using 'English names', I think, as it actually is an English word.


So, I really don't know which name should be used. There's problems all around. Any thoughts? --DesireCampbell 19:06, 6 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well, since we are mostly going by English manga names (Tenshinhan, Kuririn, Freeza, Lunch, Kiwi, etc.) I don't see why the article has to be titled Bardock. Remember that we're going by the names that the creator himself, Akira Toriyama, gave to these characters. So even if Toriyama didn't create Burdock directly (but did modify his appearance a bit and stretched his name meaning) he still named him Burdock in the manga, and VIZ verifies this. Now I don't know katakana or hiragana and whatnot like you DesireCampbell, but now I really do understand one thing; and that is that Dragon Ball is all comprised of name puns. That is what I understand about this. About the manga names for Vegerot, Madjinn Boo, etc., that's a whole 'nother story which we should take care of later. --Power level (Dragon Ball) 03:01, 10 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Be careful what you wish for. If you really want to follow the manga names, then you need to use "Hercule" for Mr. Satan. Or, at the very least, "Majin Boo" for Majin Buu. The thing about translating from Japanese is that Toriyama didn't write "Burdock" or anything else. He wrote in a Janguage that doesn't use Roman characters and whose transliteration into Roman characters can be done in many different ways-- either strictly phonetically (Bādakku -- pronounced about baa-dak-coo), as close-as-possible-while-still-sounding-English (Bardock), or scrambled a bit so the original pun is more clear (Burdock). Which is more valid the more-closely-phonetic or the more-closely-meaninged? The answer is that there is no straight-forward answer. JRP 05:57, 10 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
We shouldn't use the manga's translation just because it's the manga's translation. Viz did a great job translating everything else, it's just the names they seems to be bending over backwards to fuck up. Oh, and I want to make it very clear to Power Level and anyone else: I don't know Japanese. I know of it. I can pick out a few spoken words, and can plod my way through pronouncing some katakana - but I'd never want to give the impression that any of this information is coming directly from me. The whole 'explanation' of the name comes from me pestering people who do know Japanese; "what does this character mean?" "how is it pronounced?" "what would this mean?" etc. Anyway, names in Dragon Ball aren't easy things. Some names seem easily transliterated (like Kuririn) but we see odd spellings in the manga (like "Kullin"), other names (like Jheese) are simply Engrish and it's hard to determine what the English spelling should be.
I think the best thing to do is use the Funimation Japanese-track subtitles. They're translated by a highly trained, highly experienced, highly respected individuals (Steve Simmons for Z, GT, the Z movies and Z and GT TV specials; and Clyde Mandelin for DB and its movies) and are official romanizations (as the guidelines say to use). If any official romanization is contested, we can discuss it further (like we're doing here).
Specifically, I think that "Burdock" is the best, most correct, name - but understand that switching to the official romanization would probably serve the article better. I don't have the 'Father of Goku' DVD. Can someone here confirm what Daimao translates the character's name as? If it's "Bardock", then that coupled with the wider use of "Bardock" seals the deal (so to speak) for me. But, if its "Burdock" on the DVD then that coupled with my explanation of the name pun hardens my resolve for keeping "Burdock". --DesireCampbell 13:06, 10 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
As I stated earlier, why keep Bardock if the manga had it spelled Burdock? Why keep Tien Shinhan or Tienshinhan if the manga has it as Tenshinhan, etc.? Since it has long been known that the manga had the highest source of canon in these things, I vote for manga names, regardless of the character's popularity. This also accounted for Cui (Dragon Ball) to be moved to Kiwi (Dragon Ball), Krillin to be move to Kuririn, as well as others that I've already mentioned. If we're really going to go by FUNimation's dubbed names, I highly suggest that we don't because of it's lack of canon when compared to the manga. This also accounts for the Blue Water dubs or YTVs edited English dub for their lack of canon to the manga. See what I mean? Let's just stick to using English (or Engrish as some would call it) manga names only. Okay? --Power level (Dragon Ball) 16:15, 11 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Among English speakers, people are more familiar with the Funimation dub than anything else. The Manga is the only officially licenced merchandise that Funimation does not control. So the English video games and toys all use the same spellings as the Funimation dub. We shouldn't give undue weight to the manga just because it came first. Jay32183 18:40, 11 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Really? Tell me this: are more people familiar with Krillin or Kuririn? Tien Shinhan or Tenshinhan? Or better yet, Cyui (Cui what have you) or Kiwi? Take a good look at those articles and I believe you'll see my point. Better yet, what names does Wikipedia usually give for a characters' name title? Is it from the Manga or Anime? The answer is: MANGA!!! --Power level (Dragon Ball) 19:43, 11 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
So your argument is don't move this because the others need to be moved too? That doesn't make any sense at all. If all of the articles need to be moved then they should be moved. There is no guideline that says to use manga names, there is a guideline that says to use common English names. Funimation dub is more common that Viz manga translation. The reason the names are where they are is because of fanboys refusing to accept the Funimation dub, probably due to the over censorship. When the uncut version was made the names were not changed. Something you may wish to consider. Jay32183 20:36, 11 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Let's clear a few things up.

  • The guidelines state that we should be using official romanizations if at all possible. That would mean to use Kuririn instead of Krillin, Tenshinhan instead of Tien. Because there are many "official romanizations" discussion is sometimes needed to decide on the best corse of action. Usually we would choose the most common name, but such a guieline can be ignored if another name would make the article "better" (which is another point for discussion).
  • This is not the place for a discussion of canon - but suffice it to say that Viz is not canon. They distribute and translate the manga, nothing else. Their censored manga is not to be held as the pinnacle of English Dragon Ball.

I'm still undecided on what the article name should be. There are good reasons to use either name, so I'm placing my complete trust in Daimao's translations.

--DesireCampbell 20:12, 11 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Wrong. The guidelines state we should be using the name by which best known in English. That is clearly Bardock. Gene Nygaard 20:51, 12 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Simply using the most common name is not the best policy. We don't name the Katakana article "Chicken scratch". Further, how is "Bardock" 'clearly' more common? Because it's used in the the English anime dub? 'Burdock' is used in the manga, and the Japanese audio track subtitles. Furthermore, there are other guidelines and standards in place that deal with anime and manga article directly. WP:Anime#Sections tells us to use "official romanji" if possible. That would be "Burdock". Of course, I've said as much already.--DesireCampbell 20:59, 12 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]


Hey 'yall. I'm back. The official romanization for baadakku on Funimation's DVDs as translated by Steven J Simmons is "Burdock". I hold here that there are more reasons to use "Burdock" than "Bardock", and I shall vote as such. --DesireCampbell 22:25, 11 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, Desire Campbell, for making all these people and their FUNimation worshipping turn right around and bite them in the ass. FUNimation calls him "Burdock"! Isn't that great all you people like Jaywhatever that say we should use FUNimation because it's the end-all-be-all of Dragon Ball names and is absolutely perfect in every way??? Yeah, I think it's great too. :D Looks like we're using Burdock, as we were always going to do in the first place.
Daishokaioshin 07:57, 12 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
While I appreciate your enthusiasm DaiKaioshin, it's important to remember to not be a dick. I am, admittedly, a rather emotional person and have to remind my self of that every day - so I mean no offense by reminding you, and I think everyone should keep that in mind as well. The important thing to remember is that noone here is anyone's enemy. We're all grown ups, we're all capable of civil discussion. We should assume good faith and try to discuss the topic, not win against the others. --DesireCampbell 08:15, 12 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
You're right and I apologize. I guess I just found it ironic that most of the supporters were citing FUNimation as their source for Bardock being "right" and now they're going to be faced with the fact that the actual translation used by their source is not what they thought it was. I was trying to be humorous by pointing this out, but I can see that my comment was worded in such a way as to appear rude, when it was not my intent. So. Sorry to those I may have offended.
Daishokaioshin 08:20, 12 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
My argument was not "use Funimation". It was "use the Funimation dub" because it is more widely known and used. I don't feel to strongly one way or the other, but I want you to understand my argument. I don't feel that Funimation is automatically right, but that's where common English use would lie, and as this is English Wikipedia we should use common English wherever appropriate. Jay32183 19:05, 12 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, we see your point. It's not that it's not a valid point, it's just not that standard practice for articles about anime and manga. Is Bardock more common than Burdock? Probably. Almost assuredly. But there are guidelines and standards in place for a reason; using official romanji names is a compromise between "hard core" fans and casual fans. One group would look for, and expect, the original names; the reasoning being, this is an article about a Japanese literary character and the original Japanese name would be the most accurate. While more casual fans might only know the "dub name". As a compromise, we tend to use the official romanizations of the character names. This keeps the names accurate (maybe not as accurate as straight romanji, but acceptable to hardcore fans) and recognizable to casual fans (perhaps not as recognizable as a dub name, but they'll be able to find it on their DVDs).
And I'll be the first to advocate WP:Ignore all rules if doing so would make the article better. But I think 'Burdock' would serve the world better in this case. --DesireCampbell 20:45, 12 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, it is standard practice. It is very standard practice. Dragon Ball is the odd man out in that regard. Every guideline points to WP:NAME, which insists on common usage as the ultimate point at which an article should be named. Naming a character one letter different only causes confusion for readers and does nothing to improve the article. Bardock, as has been repeatedly shown, is the most widely recognized. It is what FUNimation uses in their offical dubs. Subtitles are not an issue, because this is the English Wikipedia and we go on the assumption people aren't watching subtitled Japanese episodes. Bardock is how his name is dubbed. The movie article uses that name. Policy dictates we use the most common name so long as it isn't horribly inaccurate. One letter is and never will be horribly inaccurate. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 21:15, 12 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
WP:NAME also says that "When there is no long-established history of usage of the term, more consideration should be given to the correctness of translation, rather than frequency of usage." Of course, it doesn't say how long "long" is. Dekimasu 04:04, 13 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Somehow, I don't think you're going to argue down the use of Hercule throughout an entire translated series as short term. You can argue down the Ocean Group dub, but you can't do the same with FUNimation. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 22:35, 13 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Previous listing on WP:RM

See this listing closed on 20 November this year which resulted in a move Bardock (Dragon Ball) → Bardock. There appears to have been no discussion. No vote as yet from me. Andrewa 19:52, 11 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

That move was then, this is now. I recently just realized the name pun and all and saw no reason as to why it shouldn't be Burdock, so I'm sticking with DesireCambell's decisions. --Power level (Dragon Ball) 20:30, 11 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Fair enough. Andrewa 02:22, 12 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
What that means is that the subsequent move was improper, and whoever is closing this requested move should consider the article name resulting from the previous move as the base for determining the default name if there is no concensus here. In other words, without consensus for "Burdock (Dragon Ball)", this should end up at Bardock. Gene Nygaard 21:39, 14 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I moved the page from Bardock (Dragon Ball) to Bardock on 20 November based on a listing in "Uncontroversial proposals", because that move just dropped an unnecessary disambiguation, there being no other "Bardock" in Wikipedia. That set up the choice to be between Bardock and Burdock (Dragon Ball).
A week and a half later, this article popped up again in "Uncontroversial proposals", and I moved it again, this time to Burdock (Dragon Ball). There were at least 3 editors in agreement, and none yet opposing, so I gave them the benefit of the doubt and moved it, commenting that if someone came along and objected we could talk about it then. I guess one could call that an improper move, but I hadn't seen that it was not uncontroversial, so I felt like I was following procedure.
I have no opinion about this proposed move, and I'm not going to close it. I'd rather some other admin take care of it, since it involves review of an admin action of mine which has been challenged. I'll be equally happy if my move is reversed, or not, according to the judgement of whoever closes this listing. -GTBacchus(talk) 06:12, 16 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

My comment starting this section was intended as part of the Discussion section, to be archived there when the survey is closed. I've put it back there, please leave it there unless you have some good reason for moving it. Andrewa 02:26, 12 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Oops. Sorry, didn't know. --DesireCampbell 04:54, 12 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Quick question

Hell y'all, saw this:

In the Dragon Ball series, nearly all Saiyans are named using English-language vegetable puns. Burdock's name (Bādakku) is a pun on burdock, a herb. In English, the pun is either rendered directly (as 'Burdock') or retaining the initial 'bā' sound (as 'Bardock').

And wanted to know if there's a better way to word this. I know what [whoever wrote this part] means by "retaining the initial ba- sound", but it kind of makes it sound like 'Bur' is an inaccurate romanization. To recap: the word "burdock" is written as バードック (ba-dokku) in katakana, but the character's name is written as バーダック (ba-dakku). The ba- sound comes from "bur", so romanizing バー (ba-) to "bur" is actually more correct that "bar" in this case, even though it would probably normally be romanized as "bar".

But I'm stumped as to what would convey the same message more clearly. --DesireCampbell 13:03, 16 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • You state above, and I confirmed based on my own not-opened-in-three-years Japanese books, that it would be pronounced "baa dah coo". I was trying to get that across without being too verbose about it. I think the trick is that we have an English word, transliterated into Japanese, and then back into English. I wanted to express how it sounds in Japanese, without making a POV judgment about which name is right. (But acking that there are variants.) JRP 17:03, 16 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I see, but the wording seems to imply that "Burdock" is not as 'correct' as "Bardock". I know that's not what you mean - it's just how it sounds.--DesireCampbell 01:04, 17 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, two things. Burdock as referred to here is not a vegetable. The plant is sometimes called an herb (it's a thistle), but this is a pun on the Japanese food (gobo), which is the root of the plant. It should be noted as a vegetable. Second, the loss of the "r" sound within words is common in transliterated Japanese. For example, "center" becomes "centaa", just as in many Commonwealth accents. You could perhaps note it as, "In English, the pun is either rendered directly as 'Burdock', or transliterated as 'Bardock' to reflect the Japanese pronunciation." Dekimasu 10:35, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

That is perfect. I'll edit that now. --DesireCampbell 13:55, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

So sorry to ask this but: yet ANOTHER question on the decision to move Bardock to Burdock.

Could someone more knowledgeable about Japanese than I answer one quick question for me; are we ABSOLUTELY sure that Bardock/Burdock's name is meant to be the LITERAL English word for the vegetable/herb/plant thingie or a PUN for the word? I ask this because such a scenario was the make or break deal for naming Freeza as such and not "Freezer". In other words; it was agreed that "Furiza" was intended to be a pun on the english word for Freezer and not the actual English word itself. Hence the article being named "Freeza". Just as likewise it was very recently agreed that "Bebi" was intended as the actual English word "Baby", and not a pun on the word, hence the article move to Baby.

I ask this question because I read through most of the discussion and I didn't see this point brought up at all like I did with Bebi. And if it was, then I missed it and you have my apologies for wasting space here.

Thus if the Japanese kana translates as the straight up romanji for the English word Burdock, then fine. But if not, then the name ought to be a little different from the real word (hence Bardock) to reflect that it's a pun on the word and not the actual word itself, as that very distinction was the deciding factor in the above two examples. These are IMO the trickiest kinds of names to translate in Dragon Ball, and ought to be handled with care for such details. Fuad Ramses 11:59, 24 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]


Here's the thing: the character's name is a pun on the English word "burdock", but there's no good way to show that pun in English. 

   "Burdock" -- which would be pronounced bur dock
   バードック -- baa do ku
   バーダック -- baa dah ku
   (Bur)ダ(ck) -- bur dah k
   Burdock

"Burdock" written in katakana would normally be バードック (I say "normally", as such an act isn't an exact science, but バードック would be by far the most used kana), but the kana used is バーダック, which would be a pun on the word, not the exact word.

That said, the word change is not something that can easily be shown. When an English word is transliterated into katakana, the pronounciation distrts slightly. Usualy this is simply over-enunciation. The change is from 'do' (like "doe, a dear, a female dear") to 'da' (with a long 'a' sound, so more like "dah", not like "dad"). That change makes the pronounciation of the name more like the English pronounciation of "burdock" than the original kana. The original word is pronounced 'burdock', the direct kana is pronounced 'baa-doe-coo', and the pun is 'baa-dah-coo'.

So, to show the punnery we would change the English spelling from 'Burdock' in a way that showed the change in the kana. That change would be from 'do' to 'dah', but that makes the word sound exactly the same to English speakers. The problem is that the pun is only really visible in the kana.

This isn't the only name in DragonBall like this either. Both Videl and Vegeta (I believe, I'll have to check soon) have changes in the kana that can't be shown in English because we already pronounce the word that way.

If we used the name "Bardock", that would indeed mean we use a name that is like the pun word, but slightly different. But we would be using a name that does not accurately reflect the pun used in the original script. Secondly, we would be going against WP:Anime Project guidelines (which are pretty well thought out). Trying to decipher the best representation of the character names is a tough job, and might be considered "original research". That's why I think following the Anime Project's guidelines is a great idea. The Anime Project states we should use whatever the official romanji is. Which would mean using the Funimation Japanese-language subtitles as translated by Steven J Simmonds (DBZ and GT) and Cylde Mandelin (DB). These men are not only professionals but are grealy respected by the fan community.

DragonBall names are tricky. Damn tricky. That's why there should be a section about the name pun (like the one on the Burdock page) on every DB character page. Which is another one of the things the WP:DBZ Project is trying to do. --DesireCampbell 22:34, 29 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]


Excellent reading as always Desire. Very informative and fascinating. So essentially what you're saying is that even though the name IS meant to be a pun, due to the actual Japanese pronunciation of the word being more dissimilar to the English word and the supposed "pun" being closer to it, we thus have to turn to the original word for lack of a better phonetic alternative, as anything else would deviate too much from the actual kana that Toriyama-san went with. It's certainly a legitimate and well rationalized argument, not to mention a bizarre coincidence. But personally I would have stuck with Bardock. Even though it's technically incorrect from a phonetic standpoint as you've pointed out, I'd have gone with it simply to get across the IDEA that it's a pun for "Burdock", and not Burdock itself. It's more consistent and in keeping with the rest of the Saiya-jin names, which are all puns on words for veggies (both English and Japanese, though mostly English). Burdock kinda breaks the "pattern" so to speak.

It's one of those weird (yet interesting) linguistic quandaries, where the translator is forced to put some personal interpretation into translating the word, and make a judgment call on what gets the general idea across the best, and often times in such scenarios there's no right or wrong answer from a technical standpoint. But you'll certainly get no argument from me about using Burdock, as it is (as you've clearly demonstrated) still a technically correct tanslation/interpretation. And also the decision behind going with it comes from far better intentions (proper Japanese to English romanization and getting Toriyama's ideas across) than the "official" English alternatives (merchandising, offending overzealous parents, dumbing down for what's perceived as a child's level, random whim etc.). Plus who am I to argue with someone like Steve "Daimaō" Simmons? Though granted I'll readily take him on about Kakarot vs. Kakarotto, but that's a whole other can 'o worms. Fuad Ramses 08:50, 2 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah Faud Ramses, I had the same problem at first. I watched the TV special and it clearly sounds like an "a" rather than a "u." But I think a better example, or at least more similar example than Videl would be Baata. Pun- Butter. FUNi name Burter, Viz name Butta. Correct me if I'm wrong, but can't the "aa" be equivolent to our "ar," "ur," and "er?" It can lead to some confusion from time to time, so in this case it does make sense to go as close to the pun as possible. Onikage725 09:43, 5 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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