Talk:Boy band/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

What about Big Bang Sales?

1- "Rolling Stone" https://rollingstoneindia.com/10-k-pop-groups-you-need-to-add-to-your-playlist/

2- "Newsweek" https://www.newsweek.com/coachella-line-2020-how-buy-tickets-bigbang-danny-elfman-festival-dates-ticket-prices-1480232

3- "CNN" https://edition.cnn.com/2017/06/21/sport/big-bang-taeyang-south-korea-pyeongchang-winter-olympics/index.html

4- "TİME" https://time.com/5549962/seungri-k-pop-scandal/

5- https://www.allkpop.com/article/2020/02/netizen-chose-big-bang-as-the-greatest-kpop-artist-of-the-decade-2010-2019

"Big Bang have sold over 140 million records, making them the best-selling digital group of all-time in Asia and one of the best-selling boy bands in the world."Lee (talk) 06:21, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

• Yeah this seems to be ridiculously inflated, Big Bang's popularity worldwide is nowhere near the level that would allow this amount of sales. How reliable is this sales figure? Do we have access to their certifications?--Krystaleen 01:32, 5 July 2017 (UTC)
  • There are no music certifications in Korea AFAIA. Those numbers seem to have originated on a fan forum (onehallyu), where fans added up all the sales of any record/dvd even remotely related to Big Bang. I.e. It includes group sales, individual record sales, sales of records where one member of the group featured on etc. So yeah, ridiculously inflated. Bennv3771 (talk) 03:13, 5 July 2017 (UTC)
    • " sales of records where one member of the group featured" This isn't true, they're listed but not included into their total sale, please read the notes of the source.

@123.21.105.176: please sign your comments otherwise it looks as if another editor made the comment instead of you. Bennv3771 (talk) 16:16, 27 July 2017 (UTC)

• • • Okay then I'm going to remove it in a few days if there's no objection.--Krystaleen 07:36, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
      • "Big Bang's popularity worldwide is nowhere near the level that would allow this amount of sales." You know they're in the digital era right? Since 2010 their single sale in Korea alone is 75,000,000+ and it can be tracked anytime on Gaon chart. I mean, you can go around their album/single pages with sale list and "reliable" source under them, the "fan work" is just tracking these public numbers. The way you guys talk about it is just unfair for an Asian artist in a digital era? At least beside the "reliable" source aka news articles like the other acts listed, they have their sale numbers shown publicly on Gaon (South Korean official chart), Oricon, QQ Music... how it that less "reliable" than their others?123.21.105.176 (talk) 13:03, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

I counted all Sales from Big Bang discography together. They sold 97 Million records mostly in Southeast Asia. I checked all sources the day I translated the article into German.

4,300,000 Album Sales
1,300,000 EP Sales
255,000 Live album Sales
450,000 Compilation album Sales
4,800,000 Single album Sales
62,823,516 Korean Singles
450,000 Japanese Singles
4,300,000 Promotional single Sales
18,427,743 Other Sales

97,106,259 Total Sales

Lee (talk) 20:27, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

• Okay I removed it until someone can post a reliable source.--Krystaleen 04:29, 10 July 2017 (UTC)

So, we're not adding BIGBANG to the list even tho they sold over 97+ as a group (meaning they'll be #3) just because there isn't a reliable source saying they sold this much since those sources are saying they sold over 140+? so basically they sold over +140M as a group and solos, and +97M as a group and they're still not gonna be on the list of the best selling boybands ? help me out here — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.68.193.156 (talk) 12:12, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

As a well versed Big Bang wikipedian, I'll have to say there will probably never be a "reliable" source for Big Bang's sales aside from fan records as the bulk of their sales come from numerous million-selling digital singles (say >30) that sell extremely well in China, South Korea and various other southeastern Asian countries. Pure albums sales actually account for only a small percentage (7 million or so) of that 140 million figure. I do not believe they are faked, as the fan records do have quite the number of sources from official certifications from multiple countries ie. Japan, Korea, China. There's also this other problem of the 140 million figure including sales from solo-member releases that sell extremely well, almost as well as the group's releases i.e. G-Dragon. Because we're comparing them to the Backstreet Boys, whose bulk of sales came from pure physical albums as a group, there's a large technological and generational incongruence. Due to the problem of the sales being dominated by dozens of digital singles that are hard to track year to year (they count streaming equivalent sales nowadays too) as it is, its extremely difficult to gauge the accurate total sales of Big Bang, even though they are undeniably popular in Asia. Even so, I agree with Krystaleen that Big Bang should not be included until there is enough concrete evidence (official data) of that figure. Alexataylor07 (talk) 12:28, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

I see, so if we excluded the solos and counted only the group sales (+97M or so) or let's say much much less, they're still not gonna be added to the list because BSB got their bulk sales from physical sales while newer groups like BIGBANG and One Direction got them from Digital ? I do agree that BSB's sales are more impressive considering the age and the time but sales are sales don't you guys think so ? if we want to focus on the physicals or 'how the groups earned their sales' then it should be a different chart with a different name, not 'Best Selling Boybands' because, logically, BIGBANG should be on the list, as you said Alexataylor07 there ARE reliable sources from that fan count to various Korean, Chinese and Japanese sites (as well as Billboard) so why should be discredit BIGBANG from their sales ? (streaming aren't included in BB's sales) I'm sorry i'm just trying to get to the bottom of it :)

I mean, you can go around their album/single pages with sale list and "reliable" source under them, the "fan work" is just tracking these public numbers. On GAON since 2010 alone they sold 75.000.000+ digital copies and it can be tracked anytime. The way you guys talk about it is just unfair for an Asian artist in a digital era? At least beside the "reliable" source aka news articles like the other acts listed, they have their sale numbers shown publicly on Gaon (South Korean official chart), Oricon, QQ Music... how it that less "reliable" than their others?123.21.105.176 (talk) 13:03, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

I've thought about this a lot, and objectively speaking, not trying to discredit anyone at all, bottom line is there no single reliable source that has calculated Big Bang's cumulative sales (may I stress the cumulative) over history. Heck, I sometimes contribute to Big Bang's sales myself and its maddeningly frustrating how difficult it is to keep up with ALL their singles year to year in different countries that consume music differently (key example: China). All I, or anyone for that matter can concretely say Big Bang has sold A LOT, but we cannot say accurately what that amount is. As a fan, even one who dedicates their time and effort to calculate their cumulative sales, we simply do not have the authority to declare that the information we have is completely 100% accurate. Even if we say okay, let's not assume its 140 million, but give them a spot on the list anyway – its just not the way Wikipedia works, information NEED accurate and reliable citations, therefore reliable sources from official certifications rule in this matter. (Side note: getting off topic and personal here – not what Wikipedia is about but since you're not a user I can't figure any other way. I'm sorry if you feel personally victimised if your favourite band is not "getting" the recognition you think they deserve, but that is life. As a contributor to Wikipedia all we necessarily need to contribute are accurate information from reliable sources. I wish there was a worldwide collective system for calculating music sales in the 21st century that accurate and accessible, but that is not the reality. Frankly, Wikipedia shouldn't be a definitive track record of success, it is simply unfortunate there is no single accurate source of information for Big Bang's cumulative sales over time. Alexataylor07 (talk) 13:18, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

I'm just confused, "Declare that the information we have is completely 100% accurate" except that's the numbers are showed publicly on the internet - the charts that they're on? So we just accept that it's true BIGBANG actually sold 140 million records on GAON, Oricon, QQ Music, Billboard as it's showned publicly, but can't accept them into the list because they're not Western? 123.21.105.176 (talk) 13:41, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

I'm actually a user but i lost my password XD! Anyway, i already made peace with the fact that there will always be people who find loopholes to get what they want, and since you are a fan you also know that these sources (as the user above you stated) are in fact reliable (GAON, HANTEO, QQ..etc) and the sales and the streamings are in fact separated so it's much easier to track, and Variety already stated their +140M sales, so i'm kinda lost of what is considered reliable and what isn't, since i can clearly see articles from far less reliable sources are being tagged as a resource! but oh well, I guess we'll have to drop it here since it's not going anywhere until a more reliable source (more reliable than the official sales sites (?????)) comes along. -Di

You actually over-edited my own edit in which phrased the last bit differently since I typed in a rush. The thing is, the variety article isn't exactly super "accurate", like simply looking at the title of the article - Youtube Red or something - the 140 million figure was added obviously as an afterthought to stress the popularity of the group. Who knows where they got that number from anyway. Accurate means official chart certifications. I will leave this talk page after this edit but there is sadly no current official chart organisation either from Korea or Japan that has calculated BB's cumulative sales.Alexataylor07 (talk) 13:43, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

"no current official chart organisation" Uhm, Gaon and Oricon?123.21.105.176 (talk) 13:44, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

must I highlight cumulative sales for you? Alexataylor07 (talk) 13:48, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

10 artists in the list, do they have it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.21.105.176 (talk) 13:56, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

You seem to be holding BIGBANG to a different standard than the western groups when it comes to "reliable sources" of "cumulative sales." The sources given for BSB's 130M+ figure are The Korea Times and The Philippine Star. The one given for The Jackson 5's 100M+ figure is Yahoo; the one for NKOTB's 80M+ figure is the Chicago Tribune; and so on.

In each case, the article linked uses the figure the same way Variety uses the 140M figure to describe BIGBANG -- as Alexataylor07 puts it, "as an afterthought to stress the popularity of the group." What is the difference in credibility between The Philippine Star writing, "Backstreet Boys has sold over 130 million records worldwide, making it the best-selling boy band in history," and Variety writing, "[BIGBANG] is one of the most popular boy bands in the world, with over 140 million records sold"?

Explain to me exactly what you consider to be a reliable source of cumulative sales. Then maybe I can work on finding you one. And if it's something more substantial than a one-off line in a magazine or newspaper, maybe you can work on finding some better sources for the western groups on the list, too. Because at the moment, the sources for their figures are not in any way superior to Variety and The Georgia Strait.96.48.160.249 (talk) 17:45, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

The fact that you took the time to discredit a group achievements like this is showing how bias your being all because they don't fit your "certifications"no matter what they still managed to make 140million give them their credit or I'll do it for you Cazzilove (talk) 00:22, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

I don't know what more there is to say. I don't know who you're referring to but I personally love Big Bang's music. That is mainly why I contribute to many wikipedia articles about them including sales, albums, tours, member's biographies and so on (feel free to check this under my user contributions). I have no prejudice towards them on wikipedia, I only wish to contribute things that I know to be facts. Firstly, the 140 million figure came from a fan site, then somehow appeared on an article in 2017 with no previous online sources ever referencing that number before. That onehallyu '140 million' includes solo member releases which should not be included. Also, its not entirely impossible that that actual number could be higher than 'X million', yes that's right, HIGHER. But we do not know for certain. This is because so far the music sales from China are coming from the music vendors themselves eg. QQ Music (basically China's Spotify), Kugou, and Kuwo, which unlike Oricon in Japan, or Gaon/Hanteo in Korea, doesn't come from any official music sales organisation (note: the official certifying body in China - SARFT - equivalent of RIAJ in Japan doesn't count digital sales). [also this may be hard to accept for people familiar with western music as we simply don't know sales from sellers like Apple Music/iTunes/Spotify/Tidal or count them individually which is the case for China] Because of this, a lot of BB's sales in China are OUTDATED. Many of their sales from MADE in China are actually higher (I've checked) than what is stated on wikipedia, just that nobody has bothered to keep up with all the individual music vendors month to month. I will leave this talk in peace, no more posts. Hopefully you all can resolve this issue someday, good luck. Ciao! Alexataylor07 (talk) 06:17, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

• Removing Big Bang sales because there is no reliable source? Reliable sources were there, and actually many of sources of other artists are less reliable, there are many news talked about the sales of Big Bang, and it's between 100 million to 140 million, here are the sources: Rolling Stones India, Variety, and New Zealand Herald. Houston Chronicle talked about selling more than 100 million records. Unless there is an actual reason why not putting them on the list and not the reasons listed above (it's digital, not popular enough..etc) than I'm going to put Big Bang on the list again. GD.BB (talk) 15:17, 23 July 2017 (UTC)

I see no consensus for them being in the article. Toddst1 (talk) 04:11, 25 July 2017 (UTC)

The thing is that all those numbers originated from a fansite which means original research. Plus those numbers include the individual members' sales while we only count actual group's sales records, not solo ventures.--Krystaleen 07:16, 25 July 2017 (UTC)

The numbers came from the sources, which are by the way a strong & reliable sources, If someone have a problem with the numbers go talk to the original articles that mention the 140 million sales. This is really ridicules not putting Big Bang on the list, because despite having a sources you still won't believe the numbers? On this case delete the entire list because most sources are weak and from unknown sites. Do you have an actual reason other than you don't believe the numbers? Wikipedia depends on such references in all of it's articles not personal opinions, and on ths case it's clear all the articles wrote Big Bang sold 140 million. GD.BB (talk) 08:33, 25 July 2017 (UTC)

Here are some of what reliable sources said about Big Bang sales:

Big Bang are veterans in the K-pop industry with a career spanning more than 10 years and 140 million records sold.

— Rolling Stones India

One fifth of popular group Big Bang—whose 140 million worldwide record sales make it one of the biggest selling boy bands in the world

— Georgia Straight

The five-member group is one of the most popular boy bands in the world, with over 140 million records sold.

— Variety

...Big Bang, which is arguably the world's most popular boy band and the biggest act in Asia. It sold more than 140 million albums worldwide.

— New Zealand Herald

The group has sold more than 140 million records, making it one of the most popular boy bands across the globe.

— Deadline Hollywood

With 140 million records sold, BIGBANG is one of the world’s most successful and well known music phenomena.

— Korean Film Council

Deferent well-known sources from deferent countries, and it's clear all of them agree that Big Bang as group sold over 140 million record, unless anyone have a sources that says otherwise, Big Bang should be on the list, not removing them because some "think" it's not true. GD.BB (talk) 21:19, 25 July 2017 (UTC)

• The problem with all those sources is that they quote each other and therefore not that valid. Read the above discussions, the current consensus among editors is to suspend their addition until a reliable source providing a more accurate count is available.--Krystaleen 01:21, 26 July 2017 (UTC)
  • You still don't have a source or anything to prove your point, your assuming that they copied from each other, where is your proof that they did? I didn't know we should do our editing and add information based on our assumptions and thought of what we think it's true and what's not. If we go based on what your saying than I could go and delete New Kids on the Block from the list because their one source is not reliable and there is no reliable source that confirms they sold that much, the same goes to The Osmonds and others. Even Backstreet Boys, on the List of best-selling music artists their total available certified units are 71.4 million, so where did the 130 million came from? Why your putting a deferent standers for Asian artists, unlike Western artist they could have a weak/unreliable sources for their sales, but for an Asian artist with over 6 reliable sources we can't put them because you think all of them are not reliable sources and copied from each other? I read the discussions above and your points are still weak and unreasonable, all of your words are based on your own assumptions and feelings. GD.BB (talk) 04:10, 26 July 2017 (UTC)

I've restored the discussions which was removed for some reason. Please read it through above, we have a consensus already.--Krystaleen 07:11, 26 July 2017 (UTC)

All the talk above saying information need accurate and reliable source, but for whom? You're only applying this rule to Big Bang, while others have the same sources and even weaker once, it's either applying the rule for all of them or delete the entire thing, because non of them have an official source like RIAA, BPI, RIAJ ...etc. Creating a rule then applying it only for one person, how is this fair? And no I don't see any a consensus, many talked about how it's wrong and unfair not putting Big Bang on the list, but you just choose to delete them. Again, a rule should be applied to all artists, not just one. GD.BB (talk) 08:14, 26 July 2017 (UTC)

• The rule is applied to all artists indeed. You are welcome to remove or better yet, to find a more reliable source and sales figure for all the artists. I know for a fact that Backstreet Boys and NKOTB sales figures have been verified by the editors over at List of best-selling music artists to have sold at least 100 million. Maybe you can start a discussion topic there to put Big Bang on the list since if the 140 million figure is accurate they should be qualified to be there, they're more knowledgeable about sales figures and certifications so I'm sure they can help you find a more accurate and reliable source for Big Bang's sales figure. I'd personally accept their consensus. If they accept Big Bang's 140 million there I'd concede here.

Now if you want to remove this best selling boy band list altogether you are welcome to start a new discussion topic so other editors can chime in and provide their opinions whether we should keep or discard the list. To be honest I've thought several times to remove the list because there's always fans fighting to put their favorite bands on the list when the purpose of the list is purely informational and not a list for fans to brag and fight about. This is Wikipedia so it should be 100% objective not something that can be debated like "People's 100 Sexiest men alive" or something of that nature. Of course, should you want to nominate the list for deletion you should also nominate the girl bands' list too.--Krystaleen 11:45, 26 July 2017 (UTC)

The list of best-selling artists didn't conform the sales of Backstreat Boys, they only conformed 72.8 million total available certified units and 100 million acclaimed sales, there is nothing about 130 million sales and The Jackson 5 are not on the list. Again, I don't know why you deliberately ignoring the fact that the rest of the list here have the same sources as Big Bang, all of them are sources that acclaimed the sales and does not give the exact number, it's not bragging about anything, if you really think all the 6 sources for Big Bang are just lies, what's your proof that NKOTB, Bay City Rollers & 1D sold that much? Why will we believe sources like Digital Spy & Chicago Tribune, but not sources like Rolling Stones & Korean Film Counci? GD.BB (talk) 15:25, 26 July 2017 (UTC)

Again, if you think they're incorrect you can always find a better source or remove them. Are you trying to improve the quality of the article as a wikipedia editor or are you just trying to put your favorite band on the list here as a fan? If you really want to improve the article you can always add citation needed tags or an unreliable source tags to the cited sources if you don't have time to find a reliable source yourself. I don't need to prove anything you are the one who wants to add a new entry, you're the one who are supposed to give a reliable source for your addition. Besides, I never said the numbers are lies, I said they're ridiculously inflated and unreliable as they come from a fan site aka original research and they include solo members' sales figures as per the discussion above. We only count groups' sales not solo endeavors by group members. Now if you just absolutely need to have Big Bang on the list for some reason with the 140 million sales figure I'd say you try to get help from the folks over at the best selling music artist list to help you with the certifications and sources. That way you won't have to do everything yourself. And if they accept your source as is than congrats you'll have Big Bang on both this list and that list. Nothing to lose, right?--Krystaleen 16:34, 26 July 2017 (UTC)

Okay my bad I should've checked that there's already a discussion over there Talk:List_of_best-selling_music_artists#BIGBANG and the consensus is similar to here. I guess it's a no until there's a more accurate sales figure from a reliable source.--Krystaleen 16:54, 26 July 2017 (UTC)

Don't turn to be just fans trying to put their favourite artist on the list, it's not. Your saying Big Bang sales are based of fans search and combain solos & groups, while the sources (which again a strong & reliable sources like Rolling Stones & Korean Film Counci) says it's group sales. And you're only questioning these sources for BB and not the others? Chicago Tribune claimed that NKOTB sold 80 million records, we don't know if this is based on real search from official sites or it's from a fan from twitter, yet we see them on the list, the same goes to almost all the list. You choose to ignore the fact that all sources here are the same, all of them claiming the sales, not one of the sources are official and based on research, but yet they put them all and not Big Bang? The list of best-selling artists have a clear rule that their available claimed figures supported by at least 20% in certified units, which does not apply for Big bang since most of their sales are from Korea that don't have a certification system.GD.BB (talk) 17:29, 26 July 2017 (UTC)

Not just that, they also confirmed what I thought, that the 140 million sales figures count group sales, solo members sales, and even sub group sales, therefore it's not valid for this list. As for the other groups' figures, are we done talking in circles? I'm tired of saying the same thing over and over again. --Krystaleen 01:13, 27 July 2017 (UTC)

If i just may chime in here; One thing led to another and I have been reading these two big walls of text and your earlier comment about getting rid of the list altogether caught my eye. If it really has been a big problem(Fans constantly editing it and so forth) then how would one go ahead with a "petition" to just get rid of it and/or possibly just turn it into an area of alleged sales under the same heading. If we go with the latter it would be much simpler to add information which seemingly is inaccurate for all the sales, while still keeping the information there for those interested. Cases like this will most likely just become more and more common with the new era of EXO/BTS racking up sales and I hardly believe we're ever going to get accurate sources for them either. I'm obviously not too well versed in the rules of Wikipedia and my idea might not go by said rules at all, but that's just my 2cents. Elronor (talk) 16:04, 27 July 2017 (UTC)

@Elronor: Haven't read all the walls of text, but the what you're asking about sounds like a request for comment where the consensus of the Wikipedia community on a particular issue can be determined. Bennv3771 (talk) 16:24, 27 July 2017 (UTC)

@Bennv3771: Thanks for this. I'll wait and see if the other participants here have something against the idea but if not, this definitely seems the way to go! Elronor (talk) 02:29, 28 July 2017 (UTC)

And as an afterthought, I am on the side of GD.BB on this, but even I have to agree there's absolutely no accurate sources for the sales for Big Bang but isn't it quite dumb to not include the alleged "biggest boy band in the world" on a list like this when its obvious they should be there in some form? This is where my suggestion mentioned above comes in. No more list so its not "official" but still an area for information that allows any future "records" to be added in for those interested without too huge conflicts regarding sources.Elronor (talk) 16:12, 27 July 2017 (UTC)

All the sales from this list are claimed sales, there is no single sources that proof that they actually sold that much, but still editors won't put Big Bang because the sources have no proof where they got their sales from? The contradiction! Anyway, I agree with you, the list now gives no accurate information and missing many things, and many will come and change it since it's not official. Also the column for Records sold could be change to Claimed sales which is more accurate. GD.BB (talk) 04:51, 30 July 2017 (UTC)

This discussion seems to be going around in circles and I really didn't want to make an appearance here again. But someone does have a point. I support adding the "alleged sales" instead of stating its the official sales and maybe that way Big Bang can be added in. Kind of ruins the credibility of all of this but the sources for the others aren't that great anyway. Alexataylor07 (talk) 05:44, 30 July 2017 (UTC)

I think "claimed sales" could work. Is there any publication that has Big Bang sales record without subgroups and solo members sales included in?--Krystaleen 15:49, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

Sadly I haven't been able to find anything else but the already discussed collection as linked here As has already been said, the total includes subgroup and solo releases but if its OK we/I can do a count for all the group stuff. Its up to you though if we want to use a blog as a source. Elronor (talk) 09:23, 3 August 2017 (UTC)

Blogs are generally unreliable. I don't know. Where did they get the numbers from again?--Krystaleen 05:11, 4 August 2017 (UTC)

@Krystaleen:Sorry got busy with life and totally forgot I was supposed to follow up here; They only cite their sources as: source: hanteo, gaon, PP + mol + Andy + fantomas + Dragonfly0915 @ OH! The first two are Official Charts/Sales companies which I simply presume the blog author has been in contact with. The last 4 are different users who hes presumably collaborated with to get the sales. I tried digging deeper and attempted finding sources on the mentioned Hanteo and Gaon charts but hanteo was the typical asian site made up of pictures so you couldnt translate anything, aka. i didnt get far but i had more success on Gaon, as for example seen here so I checked the same on the blog and all seems to be matching. So TLDR; I don't see us finding a better source other than working for a year compiling the same the blog has already done, which makes me suggest we/I get working on compiling the group only sales and then verifying with someone. Elronor (talk) 07:58, 7 August 2017 (UTC)

I'd love for some other neutral editors to weigh in on this. On one hand I do think Big Bang deserves to be on the list but on the other hand their numbers come from a fan blog and can be completely made up for all we know. It's completely unverifiable so I don't even know how to approach this. I guess you can start counting just the group sales if you want and then present it here on the talk page under a new topic and hope more editors will chime in?--Krystaleen 01:29, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

@Krystaleen: Hi, I guess i'm one of the "neutral editors" you're looking for. I think it's interesting to split up the table in "official certified units" and "claimed sales" since I don't think we'll ever find a reliable source for any of their sales numbers in S. Korea since the S. Korean GAON chart doesn't certify any records.Lio51546 (talk) 17:20, 11 August 2017 (UTC)(talk)

That's also a good idea. What are we going to put in Big Bang's official certified units though if there's no official numbers?--Krystaleen 01:24, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

We could use their sales numbers in the US and Japan.Lio51546 (talk) 17:00, 22 August 2017 (UTC)Lio51546

I agree with the fact that because there are no official records of Big Bang sales that we can't include them on the list. However, could we include a note saying that? JDDJS (talk) 14:39, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

Hello Mademoiselle @Krystaleen, sorry about my last reply, i read all your talks about BIGBANG, MOST Their sale Sources came from GAON are Certified because that Chart are Supported by Korea Music Content Industry Association' (KMCIA) and (RIAK) recording industry association of korea http://www.kmcia.or.kr/sales/source http://www.riak.or.kr/chart/gaon_total.asp , so based on that we can Add BIGBANG on the list, What You Think ?

 — Preceding unsigned comment added by MRAU-vip (talk • contribs) 17:55, 21 September 2017 (UTC) 

Many editors above said GAON doesn't certify any records so which is correct? How many records are certified by GAON?--Krystaleen 10:33, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

here is the correct answer : RAIK KMCIA http://www.riak.or.kr/english/ The First one RIAK are supposed to certify those sales, but their system of work are diffirent they leave This job to GAON, Gaon is the most trustworthy source for sales bc they count for returns. Gaon numbers are the amount of sales an album is certified for (Gaon is basically Korea Billboard).

The Gaon Music Chart tabulates the relative weekly popularity of songs or albums in South Korea. It is compiled by the Korea Music Content Industry Association and sponsored by South Korea's Ministry of Culture, Sports and Tourism, with an aim to create a national chart for South Korea similar to the Billboard charts of the United States.

ALL BIGBANG RECORDS ARE CERTIFIED By GAON, Here You can see thier records with sources from GAON

- Comment added by MRAU-vip (talk • contribs) 12:55, 22 September 2017 (UTC) 

I guess you can start counting only their certified group sales, without their subgroup or solo sales as suggested by an editor above. Then post here on this talk page to get other editors' input about it.--Krystaleen 14:55, 25 September 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for replying back, yes i counted only their sales as a Group, at the time of writing this reply they sold :

KOREAN Certified Sales: 67,239,327+ (GAON SALES + DIGITAL ONLY)

CHINESE Certified sales: 25,802,605+

JAPANESE Certified sales: 2,492,042+

US Certified sales : 44,000+

TOTAL OF CERTIFIED SALES ONLY = 95,577,947

so they sold 95.5M+ in certified sales , i think we should add bigbang to the list with 140M (CLAIMED SALES)

MRAU-vip • 21:57, 26 September 2017 (UTC)

Care to provide a verifiable and citable source for all those numbers?--Krystaleen 00:58, 29 September 2017 (UTC)

Yes of course

MRAU-vip • 23:30, 29 September 2017 (UTC)

Everything Big Bang released after 2010 is reliable, because the Gaon Chart was introduced then. You can check all Sales, by e.x 2016년 12월 Album Chart. Fantastic Baby sold four Million copies and to verify alone this, we need 44 links. We can't add hundreds of links to the sales pages. The only thing we can do is link to the discography article, but the the discography article is not 100% correct, which means everything needs to be checked again. I'm doing this currently for the German discography article and will add the correct information to the English one too. -- Lee (talk) 22:44, 4 October 2017 (UTC)

References

Frankly no one else on the list is being held to the same scrutiny and fine-toothed combing as Bigbang is right now. Several reliable sources were provided, and yet Bigbang is not being put back on the list due to the unfounded assumption that the sources all copied from each other. Furthermore, while Gaon only started in 2010, we have data from other highly reliable sources for years prior to that. Putting them under "claimed sales" isn't necessary because we have several credible sources listed here. Sources have been provided, and they aren't enough for some reason. We've found the sources to be properly certified, and it's not enough. More sources are provided and it's assumed they are copying one another. The music charts are provided as well as the sources they pull from and still they are not put back on the list. I'm sorry but this is erasure. They are currently at 150M+ and aren't being credited for it because no source out of the many posted is "good enough" even though most of them would be perfectly fine for anyone else on this list. In fact, we are keeping people on the list who would fail the same test that people are putting Bigbang through. I agree with the others above. Bigbang is being held to different standards than the Western artists. I agree with these comments in particular: "You seem to be holding BIGBANG to a different standard than the western groups when it comes to "reliable sources" of "cumulative sales," and "The sources given for BSB's 130M+ figure are The Korea Times and The Philippine Star. The one given for The Jackson 5's 100M+ figure is Yahoo; the one for NKOTB's 80M+ figure is the Chicago Tribune; and so on." Bigbang should be put back on the list based on the fact that the other Western bands are using the same or similar sources that are suddenly reliable if the band is Western, but not if they are from Asia. Also, we've provided even more credible sources than many of the other bands. And BSB's numbers are being believed for their 130M+ figure despite the fact that we've added different numbers because suddenly the higher figure is credible for them, but not Bigbang, based on these same sources. For the sake of fairness, Bigbang should go back on the list and be treated just like every other band listed here, not massively scrutinized because they aren't Western. I've seen no argument to keep them off the list that isn't incredibly biased and speculative AND that addresses the fact that the Western bands aren't being treated in the same manner when they have less sources, some even less credible. We are not asking that you remove the first nine Western groups, only that you put Bigbang in the number one slot under the same treatment and good faith that the Western bands are getting. The sources for everyone else are just being believed with no further scrutiny. The other bands and their sources are being kept on in good faith for the same, similar, and in some cases lesser sources, so Bigbang should go back on as well. And no, the suggestion to just delete the sources for the others is not the answer, because you're asking us to erase other bands when we simply want Bigbang put on the list under the same standards. Unless people can provide a good reason as to why they aren't deleting the Western groups for the same issues, Bigbang should go back on and stay on. LiSyao (talk) 07:25, 7 February 2018 (UTC)

Actually if you take the time to read the entire discussion you'll see that the main issue with Bigbang's sales numbers is that it includes solo members' sales and subgroups'. We don't count those here, only the actual group sales.--Krystaleen 03:54, 8 February 2018 (UTC)

@Krystaleen if you read it good you will realize that we give you the numbers excluding solo members .--#MRAU 23:11, 10 February 2018 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by MRAU-vip (talk • contribs)

I'm aware of that but that number came out from nowhere with no reliable source to back it up. For all we know it could be completely made up.--Krystaleen 02:48, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

This source puts the number at 150 million [1] but I do not know where they pulled that number from. -Indy beetle (talk) 20:43, 22 March 2018 (UTC)

Sales figures get gradually inflated by record companies with each major promotion. And this is no different. This boy band's sales figures, however, whether it be 140 million or 150 million, are one of the most inflated of all that I've seen over my years of analyzing sales figures.--Harout72 (talk) 22:47, 22 March 2018 (UTC)

This has become ridiculous to be honest. Saying BIGBANG sales are "unbelievable" and "inflated" so you personal opinions decided to delete them? Even though there are reliable sources. Then Let's see the other sources from groups on the list: BSB source are from The Sydney Morning Herald, and here is BIGBANG source from another Herald News, it's New Zealand Herald, The Jackson 5 source is from Yahoo! Here are BIGBANG source from Yahoo!. Other sources for those groups are from online newspaper like The Independent, Los Angeles Times and Belfast Telegraph. BIGBANG have also sources from equally reliable sources like New York Press, The Georgia Straight and Rolling Stones. Even some groups are listed are backed up by sources from Seventeen and Oprah?! Are these two reliable sources? Let's leave the "reliable sources" argument aside for a moment, some cliamed that if they count their discography page it won't even reach that and only around 97 million sales. How about other groups pages? The Jackson 5 is claimed to sold 100 millions, but in their page they sold around 43 million albums and they don't have sales for their single (not even certifications) they are not even on the List of best-selling music artists because their available claimed figures is not supported by at least 20% in certified units, yet they are listed and their source is Yahoo. Menudo is claimed to sell 60 millions, but there is no single certification I could find, and a source from Seventeen magazine, I could claim as many of you did that these sales "unbelievable and inflated" and 'their popularity worldwide is nowhere near the level that would allow this amount of sales." so why are they listed? The same goes to many of the groups on the list, but only BIGBANG you decided not to list, while others are fine? Do you see where it's going? Having some kind of "rules", the rules applied to all of them, but one of them is not listed....? Is this where Wikipedia editors has reach? Letting personal opinions and thought decided? Even if we go only by BIGBANG discography page, they sold almost 100 million records, so why not adding them? Oh you don't believe an Asian group could sell that much? The continent that have 60% of the world's population can't produce a group like that and sell that much? Because this is the only way I see it here, pure racism. GD.BB (talk) 16:26, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

The exclusion isn't based on personal opinion, it based on the fact that the available actual sales numbers do not add up. Just because sources claim they've sold 150 million records, it doesn't make it true. News outlets never analyze sales figures before publishing, they simply copy from each other. Therefore, The reliability of a source depends on context. Yes, there are also many inflated sales figures out there published by reliable sources for many western artists, and for that reason they are all left out of the List of Best-selling Music Artists, including The Jackson 5. And because Asia as a whole has a huge population it doesn't mean Asian music markets are large. Only Japan's music market is huge, the rest of them are tiny, see Global music industry market share data. The population size isn't the only factor that decides the size of a music market, the economy and per capita are the main two factors that determine whether people are able to spend enough money on music. I'd personally be open to discussing the inclusion of Big Bang if the claimed figures are somewhere around 75-85 million. But anything above that is simply outrageous.--Harout72 (talk) 16:54, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

All I see is personal opinion, since what you say also applies to many other groups on the list, but why are they still counted? For example, the claim sales for The Jackson 5, New Kids on the Block and Menudo does not add up, there is no certifications that back them up, we only have some news outlets that said those numbers, and those as you said doesn't analyze sales figures before publishing, but yet you are still counting them! Because the way I see it, you believe is those numbers as you possibly grow-up with those groups, and they were huge in their prime, so it's normal to sell that much (also the mentality of they sing in English so yes they sure sold that much), but I'm sure we can't say the same for BB, since they don't sing in English, and they are from less powerful market (South Korea) so how could they sell that much? How is this fair? And by the way, in BIGBANG discography page, their available sales from songs are over 80 million digitals from South Korea only, not forgetting that we don't have the full sales of ALL of their songs, if you count the rest of their sales from other countries including China and Japan, it will easily cross 100 million, so I don't know where is this "around 75-85 million" come from. We are talking about a group who did fans-meeting (playing games with fans) in stadiums in Asia (capacity over 40k per show). Their latest world tour gathered 1.5 million fans, which have bigger numbers than tours from Lady Gaga, Enrique Iglesias, The Weeknd and Katy Perry, and BIGBANG had lesser shows than them to bring those people. Their tours in the last 3 years bring over 4.7 million fans! So their might not be inflated as you think, maybe you should go and read about them to know how huge they are, and selling that much isn't inflated as you believe. And once again, you people still didn't give one valid reason not to add them, because if we go by your reasons 90% of the list should be removed. GD.BB (talk) 21:27, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

Jackson 5 are early beginner and their sales are difficult to track down for other markets. Most markets didn't have certification system until late '80s, even until the 90s. While NKOTB have begun charting in the '80s, they have 31 million in certified units. As for Big Bang's Korean sales alone, I'm not sure where you're getting the 80 million just for Korea. I Have gone as far as putting their singles digital downloads on a single file just so I could get and idea as to where their Korean singles sales approximately would be(not interested in 10,000 of thousands of units). The total on my file doesn't support more than 47 million units, and 2.150 million certified units from Japan. That is certainly nowhere close a figure to blindly believe that this Korean boy band could have sold anywhere near the neighborhood of 150 million records.--Harout72 (talk) 22:01, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

So why counting Jackson 5 and NKOTB on the list when there is no way to find that they actually sold 80m-100m? You basically believed a source that could simply took their numbers from fans or just guessed it! I could do what you doing and ask to remove them, since I don't believe NKOTB sold 80 million records, they only have 2 big albums and their singles didn't sell that much, and their certifications are way less, so where did the 80 million came from? Your file is way outdated, Gaon Chart have shown the top 400 best-selling songs (weekly, monthly & yearly) and songs like Fantastic baby already hit 4 million sales, and other older songs already hit millions of sales between 2010-2016 in Gaon, they also sold millions in China, from China's three major music platforms KuGou, QQ Music and Kuwo, all the links of their sales are on their page. And once again, you people still didn't give one valid reason not to add them, because if we go by your reasons 90% of the list should be removed. GD.BB (talk) 22:20, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

Like I said, I'm not after tens of thousands of units posted on weekly charts, I simply needed 90-95% of the each singles downloaded sales in order to know where they stand sales wise. Again, they could never come anywhere near the claimed figures. And Big Bang cannot be compared to earlier beginners, their verifiable sales should be well inline with what's claimed in sources. Even the newer western artists cannot be listed at the List of best-selling music artists if their claimed figures are not inline with their certified units. And stop claiming that we haven't given valid reason, we've given plenty. In fact, failing or refusing to get the point is another form of disruption.--Harout72 (talk) 00:27, 14 May 2018 (UTC)

I will do your job Mr @Harout72 -- i can provide a file with BIGBANG's certified sales, and i will put it here so you can check it, and i will make it easier for you to count their sales, BIGBANG is well-deserved to be included in this list. --MRAU-vip

@Harout72 You still giving different standers to BIGBANG! This list is based on claimed sales not actual certifications like the List of best-selling music artists, so the entire list is based on claims by reliable sources, and we have zero clues if their numbers are based on expert research or fan research. but you believe all the sources of 11 groups on the list but not the Asian group? And you said: "Jackson 5 are early beginner and their sales are difficult to track down for other markets" so how could we believe that they sold that much, as far as I could know there is a huge chance that they didn't sell half of the claimed number, but they are THE JACKSONS, a well-known group from US so of course we will believe the numbers? And if you updated your "personal research" you'll find that BIGBANG sold 80 million digitals songs from South Korea only, that is enough to be listed, but I guess you'll believe your personal outdated research rather than actual sources from NY Times, Variety, The Rolling Stones, etc... And don't bring the disruption thing like a child, if you want to report me than go a head, I'll be glad to show the recap of how the editors here are fully biased towards western artists. GD.BB (talk) 03:25, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

The List of best-selling music artists are also based on claimed sales mainly, just has certain amount of certified sales required for all. And you might want to start to read what others are actually saying rather than shooting back with a nonsensical argument everytime the discussion doesn't go in your desired way. As I said earlier which you obviously haven't read, The reliability of a source depends on context. Each source must be carefully weighed to judge whether it is reliable for the statement being made in the Wikipedia article and is an appropriate source for that content. Therefore, the sources you mentioned above NY Times, Variety, The Rolling Stones, etc..., are reliable in general, but sales figures need to be analyzed on individual bases.--Harout72 (talk) 13:10, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Again you didn't answer my main questions! 1. Why the sales of Menudo are not analyzed? To be honest the sales are questionable, they barely charted anywhere even in latin charts, yet the claims are that they sold 60 million records! How? 2. Even if you don't believe BIGBANG sold that much, in South Korea alone they sold at least 80 million digital songs and you can check all the references on their discography page, but they are not listed? GD.BB (talk) 05:01, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

I already have used the references at their discography, nothing above 55 million is supported by those refs for South Korea. Again, Big Bang can be listed with 75-85 million records claim, but I will not support anything above 90 million, I'm sure neither will anybody else. As for Menudo, I'm not seeing any Gold and Platinum certifications, so if you want to start a separate discussion for their removal, I'll support it.--Harout72 (talk) 04:38, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Sex Pistols

Given that they had no musical talent coming in, and were assembled to be a band (of boys) solely because of their look, it seems that this not only should be added to the Boy Band list, but credited as being the first, even if more abrasive than those others which would tend to be listed here. 205.172.134.23 (talk) 21:07, 15 October 2018 (UTC)