Talk:Infinite Flight/Archive 1

Archive 1

Vandalism?

I'm not an experienced Wikipedian so forgive me if I'm wrong. I noticed that the Featured section in the article was the exact same copy from the source you cited it from, the Infinite Flight website. Typing exactly what the source said is vandalism? FiendYT (talk) 05:47, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

Writing style

While reading throught the article I noticed it was written in a very basic type of english. While this is not a big issue it does make it very clear the editor isn't really familiar with the style of writting used on wikipedia articles. (Repetitions of words and sentence structures, very short sentences, etc.) It also reads like an advertisment text that lacks neutrality, making me think it has been written by a (young?) fan of said Program. Rephrasing and reworling would be necessary in my opinion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nicolas Triebold (talk • contribs) 21:01, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

A group of people will be getting together to maintain and update the thread, so your said issue should be resolved then. LazyLlamaAviation (talk) 07:55, 31 December 2016 (UTC)

Removal of PROD

I have removed the PROD because the page is actively being re-written as a result of the PROD being active on the page, therefore we object to the PROD. If at a future date this page is still deemed worthy of a PROD then please enact a CSD or XFD. Please give the editing some time, however a larger team is working to improve it.

Zweeb101 (talk) 23:45, 30 December 2016 (UTC)

I'm not seeing anything happening on this front, so perhaps re-instating the PROD is in order. Eik Corell (talk) 16:41, 21 January 2017 (UTC)

Multiple references missing

Missing references quite a bit. For example, here it says that the game received a review. No link given, no proof.

This occurs multiple times throughout the page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by GiacomoLaw (talk • contribs) 17:54, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

The Infinite Flight Community

There is a community which is https://community.infinite-flight.com and whenever it is added it is removed why is that so? Yardan Sheikh (talk) 08:02, 24 March 2017 (UTC)

Most video games have communities. Unless covered for some reason by reliable third-party sources, this by itself is not worthy of mention. Eik Corell (talk) 09:50, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

Erik Corell this is not a Video Game and it is a Flight Simulator and which is soon gonna get Global Flight in which you can fly anywhere and this will be the only Flight Simulator in the world to have it and also we all the community members are adding content and you are removing it why is that so? And it is not a make and throw or an easy to develop flight Simulator first download it ,use it and then say Yardan Sheikh (talk) 11:24, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

And please see this link. https://community.infinite-flight.com/t/the-new-if-wikipedia-page-photos-coming-soon/106376/ Yardan Sheikh (talk) 12:26, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

Working from this edit, starting from the top: The lead paragraph runs afoul of the guideline WP:GAMECRUFT by going into pricing into. This is a subsection of WP:VG/GL; the guidelines that deal with content in video game articles. Specifically, this one runs afoul of #8; listing costs of products/items. This is also covered by WP:NOTCATALOG.

The next problematic section is the "Development History" section, which also contains info usually to be avoided per #7 and #10 of WP:GAMECRUFT again; Lists of gameplay items, weapons or concepts, and exhaustive version histories.

The info added to the "Infinite Flight Live" section is overly detailed again per WP:GAMECRUFT, for example the part on grading goes into detail listing everything in exact detail that affects the grading. This is not needed. Only a few examples are needed, and not written in this excessively detailed way. The way this needs to be rewritten would be along the lines "Violations include things such as flying too fast, or in prohibited airspace.". The part on subscriptions is the pricing stuff mentioned above again -- #8 of WP:GAMECRUFT.

The "Future Development" section is largely speculation, which is covered by WP:CRYSTALBALL.

What the article needs is coverage by independent sources and simplification. The edits contributed thus far haven't helped much with that.Ideally, such articles/coverage would be the source of the info in the article, but as it stands now, the article is mostly primary sources; website(s) affiliated in one way or another with the game. Eik Corell (talk) 12:33, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

Okay DISCUSSION CLOSED Yardan Sheikh (talk) 12:39, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

The future development is not speculation it is confirmed by the Devloper LAURA LABAN herself Yardan Sheikh (talk) 12:55, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

WP:CRYSTALBALL still deals with this. Mention of these kinds of minor technological future updates, whether they materialize or not, do not belong in the article if not covered by reliable third-party sources. Eik Corell (talk) 13:06, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

I have changed the article to fit your description before you edit anything let me know

Wren Jago (talk) 13:02, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

Sorry, I'm not seeing any significant difference short of the formatting. The material still has the same problems I listed in my reply further up. Eik Corell (talk) 13:10, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

I removed all pricing information which seemed like the biggest issue. I also changed he violations section to be more concise but development history will stay as is because other games do the same thing Wren Jago (talk) 13:32, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

Many articles don't get held to high standards and thus are not well-written or conforming to Wikipedia guidelines, but that's not an argument for adding similar stuff to this article. The pricing info is only one of many issues as explained above. Eik Corell (talk) 13:52, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

Please check my recent edit with the justification Wren Jago (talk) 13:53, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

Also you only mentioned three issues hardly loads and your too in depth issue comes from your lack of knowledge about the game. A new plane or region is an extremely large update - almost like a DLC for video games. Wren Jago (talk) 14:01, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

You're ignoring or refusing to acknowledge most of the guidelines to which I've linked and seem to be focusing on minor examples I gave. My point is that all of this info is bad in light of what I've wrote originally and shouldn't be in the article. I would give examples, but I feel I did a perfect job in my message further up. Eik Corell (talk) 14:32, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

Gonna try to explain it again in a different way:

The Development History has no third-party sources to show how any of it is notable and it's in violation of #7 and #10 of WP:GAMECRUFT.

The "Future Development" also is in violation of WP:GAMECRUFT #10 to a lesser extent than the above, but likewise has no sources to show why these future changes are relevant. In light of that, mentioning these future patch notes is also putting undue weight on small details. It's also in the ballpark of #3 of WP:CRYSTAL as I mentioned.

The "Reception" section was using peacock-wording to describe user ratings given to the game. User ratings on on an app store are not a substitute for reviews by recognized sources.

Basically, all of this added info is fluff to prop up an article that really doesn't have much to establish the notability of its subject in the first place. Piling on more info about future updates or previous updates does not improve the article when there are no third-party sources covering how or why any of these changes or additions are notable. Eik Corell (talk) 16:35, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Eik Corell is spot on here. Claims should be based on reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. We allow primary/self-published sources from developers/publishers as long as they are limited in scope, simple facts, and not unduly self-serving. Lengthy lists of features are none of these, and should not be included unless they're discussed in reliable sources. We also don't link to forums per our guidelines on external links, especially when they're easily found on the official link. I encourage everyone from the Infinite Flight forums to read the WikiProject Video Games article guidelines, which cover flight simulators. Woodroar (talk) 16:43, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

I'm assuming that the main site for the game is infinite-flight.com, and that this community link is the same one available from the main site. WP:ELMINOFFICIAL says to include only the one official link to the main site when the other sites are linked from it. Ravensfire (talk) 18:07, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

Ok - so say I remove the long list of features and the reviews which you find unrepeatable even though they were in the old version which is now the current one will the article be accepted? Wren Jago (talk) 22:32, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

Unlikely, because we're still lacking reliable, third-party sources. Looking at your most recent edit, for example, you added:

• 3 sentences of UNDUE content in the LEAD. We don't need to know that the simulator is continually being developed, who the boss is, or where the developers work, unless those are details which reliable sources discuss at length. (And possibly not even then.)
• Unsourced or primary-sourced sections on solo and multiplayer modes, servers, grading, subscriptions, and future development. These each might warrant a sentence or two, or (at most) a subsection, if they were covered by reliable sources.

Keep in mind that Wikipedia is a summary of what quality sources say–in this case, games journalism–and we're not an indiscriminate collection of information. Details on game modes, servers, and release notes generally belong on the developer/producer website(s) or a dedicated wiki about this game, not here. Take a look at Wikipedia:WikiProject Video games/Article guidelines, especially the section on article section orders. This is how an ideal article is layed out, given sufficient sources. I hope this helps! Woodroar (talk) 23:25, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

On Citations

It is difficult to get citations for this topic as the game is very small - there is also little information on this topic elsewhere. GiacomoLaw (talk) 18:21, 18 May 2017 (UTC)

I reverted most of your changes. This article has a history of unsourced and poorly-sourced additions of trivial information. What we need is reliably-sourced information about the game. If the sources don't exist, then we shouldn't be reporting on it. Woodroar (talk) 23:49, 18 May 2017 (UTC)

I don't think those were my changes. To be honest, this article isn't going to grow as there are no sources apart from ones too close to the subject. As it is now, it's pretty bare bones, and not helpful at all - I don't really see the need of it to be honest. However, once the game grows, there may be more outside sources reporting on it. It's a pretty small and niche game, and doesn't really need a Wikipedia page at the stage it is in. GiacomoLaw (talk) 17:22, 19 May 2017 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I assumed the anonymous/IP editor was you editing while logged out, which I should not have! I agree that there's not much here, and won't be unless the game gets bigger. I'm not sure the two existing sources are even reliable enough to meet WP:GNG. Woodroar (talk) 23:37, 19 May 2017 (UTC)

Global Section

I was not creating a news section, I was making a section about an upcoming feature of the game. Mrpidge (talk) 12:25, 20 May 2017 (UTC)

Whatever you want to call the section, it was not supported by a reliable, third-party published source. You might find our video game article guidelines helpful. Woodroar (talk) 14:46, 20 May 2017 (UTC)

Update tag (and recent updates)

I've removed the {{Update}} tag from the article because I'm unable to find current sources covering this game. Both the reliable and situational custom Google searches at WP:VG/RS have turned up nothing significant after 2014. In my opinion, the tag will only encourage the type of unsourced gamecruft-y updates that we've been reverting for the past few months. Woodroar (talk) 14:57, 29 October 2017 (UTC)

Time for longer term semi-protection

With the recent history of IP or new users adding in unsourced, gamecruft or flat-out copying, is it time for longer-term semi-protection of the article to stop the disruption? Ravensfire (talk) 01:46, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

I'm thinking we should. I don't see it stopping anytime soon. Woodroar (talk) 02:18, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 27 November 2017

Add that the release of global flying in 2017. Digargoz (talk) 16:21, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. —KuyaBriBri^Talk 16:52, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 May 2018

Add Release Date For Iphone JBear-GT (talk) 13:19, 8 May 2018 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. —KuyaBriBri^Talk 13:36, 8 May 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 July 2018

116.90.236.186 (talk) 11:35, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. L293D (☎ • ✎) 11:46, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

Offsite Coordination/Meatpuppetry

It appears that there's offsite coordination to add content to the article, including a threat to edit war. Unfortunately, it has all been unsourced and trivial details. I welcomed the editors, hopefully that will help. Woodroar (talk) 02:32, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

Yup, not the first time that happened. Sadly, that community refuses to take the advice and guidance given and still try to treat this like their personal webpage. Having pending changes really helps, but if enough keep making unsourced, fan-based or trivial changes, semi-protection for a couple of days would probably stop most of the drek. Ravensfire (talk) 03:24, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

Something to note - we should review the changes being made by the community to see if there is useful material. While a lot of it has been trivia, I think a bit of it could be helpful. In particular, the most recent batch mentioned that it used the acceleration and gyroscope of the device (probably for control) and while this is a common feature in many mobile device games, if we've got a source for it, it's probably a good thing to include. The plane list, pricing details, etc, though, that's just trivia. Ravensfire (talk) 14:49, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

Yeah, I try to check the sources when they get added, but the problem is that most editors don't include sources. When they do, it's nearly always forum posts. I also periodically check the custom Google searches at WP:VG/LRS but no reliable sources have covered the game since 2014 or so. It's just (pardon the pun) off their radar. Woodroar (talk) 16:34, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

The community kind of looks like a big circle jerk for the game, and it looks like the majority is made up my children and you get people. Certainly not unbiased. I’m not sure if there really is any information to be added to the article. The developers of the game opened a blog but other than that there are not really any news outlets reporting on it and obviously the blog is too closely related to be referenced. Dipperdolphin (talk) 23:30, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

Hello, I am the main coordinator/creator of that Infinite Flight Community post, "racerclc". If I have been violating Wikipedia policies, I am extremely sorry. I was unaware of the fact that I was violating key policies, but this is no excuse for my actions since they are clearly stated in a section of the Wikipedia website. I would like to note that I'm attempting to ensure that everyone reviews the rules of post editing and to make them follow the advice we have been receiving from Wikipedia moderators. I will continue to remind them to find valid, credible sources for the information that they add, and I have reminded them to avoid self-promotion of Infinite Flight. If you'd like the Community to stop making edits to this Wikipedia page, I can tell them to do so, and we can simply turn the Infinite Flight Community post into a request for Infinite Flight LLC to edit the Infinite Flight Wikipedia page themselves. I sincerely hope that this Infinite Flight Wiki post is not causing any disruption in the Wikipedia community; please note that none of our members were purposely attempting to do any harm to Wikipedia or to violate any of its policies. Thank you for your understanding. :) racerclc (talk) 20:54, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

Hi Racerclc, thank you for joining the discussion! I wouldn't say that IFC members need to stop editing the article, because you're all knowledgeable and passionate about Infinite Flight. Caring about the subject is, in most cases, a good thing. I'd just say that you should step back for a bit to understand what Wikipedia is and how it works.

The important thing to know about Wikipedia is that we're an encyclopedia and that all of our content should be based on "reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy". As an encyclopedia, we write general summaries and that means avoiding trivial details—like pricing, lists of gameplay items/vehicles/places, descriptions of play modes, version histories, etc.—unless those details are something that reliable sources talk a lot about. For example, if Infinite Flight cost $500 per month, I'm sure that would get tons of (negative) coverage. But $9.99 per month? It's mundane enough that nobody cares. And because we summarize what reliable sources say, then we shouldn't care, either. Now when I say "reliable sources", for a game or simulator like Infinite Flight that usually means reputable video games and technology sites/magazines like GameSpot, IGN, PC Magazine, Kotaku, Polygon, etc. (And then there are unreliable sources, like forum posts, press releases, advertisements, purchase/download sites, etc. We rarely ever use them as sources.) At WP:MOSVG you can read about the kinds of content we do (and do not) write about in our articles. And at WP:VG/S you can read about the sources that cover video games and simulators. (There are also plenty of things to read in the welcome message I left on your own talk page.)

The content that's been added to this article is far too detailed for Wikipedia, especially because no reliable sources are covering Infinite Flight at this time. (As I mentioned above, the most recent reliable source I could find was from 2014.) What you really need is a dedicated wiki like Wikia where you can be as detailed as you want.

As for Infinite Flight LLC, our conflict of interest guidelines strongly discourage them from editing the article directly. Of course, anyone at their company is more than welcome to create individual accounts (i.e., not a company/group account), disclose their conflict of interest, and suggest edits backed by sources.

If you have any questions, feel free to ask! And I hope this helps! Cheers! Woodroar (talk) 22:02, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

Notice for editors

Please note that we do not list all the aircraft and scenery on the game on this article, any edits violating this policy will be removed. RMS52 ^{Talk to me} 16:38, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

Why is this? LazyLlamaAviation (talk) 07:58, 31 December 2016 (UTC)

As Woodroar said further down the page, general summaries are written as Wikipedia is an encyclopaedia. Trivial details such as items available in the game are not usually included, for example you don’t see a list of items in PUBG, unless these items are referenced to a lot by external sources that are reliable. Dipperdolphin (talk) 23:53, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

Developer Name

The developer name keeps getting changed from "Flying Development Studio LLC" to "Infinite Flight LLC" but it appears that both names are currently in use. All of the sources in the article say "Flying Development Studio LLC", as do their official Facebook page, their LinkedIn profile, their CrunchBase account, and so on. Yet their legal terms say "Infinite Flight LLC". Was there a name change? Does anyone have some insight on this? Woodroar (talk) 21:24, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

I believe the legal terms are more up to date however I’m not 100% sure. Game seems like a bit of a mess when it comes to this. I’d go with Infinite Flight LLC as that is on their legal terms. Maybe someone with more knowledge of the game could update us? Dipperdolphin (talk) 23:19, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

A while ago, I was in contact with some of the staff at Infinite Flight. Long story short, the confirmed that their name is now Infinite Flight LLC. I don't know why those other websites have not been updated, but the name change is official. Before now, I asked this question on the Infinite Flight forum, and if you scroll towards the bottom of the page, you'll see that some moderators/staff have verified the name change. You can find that brief conversation by visiting this website: https://community.infiniteflight.com/t/which-is-it-flying-development-studio-llc-or-infinite-flight-llc/264534 racerclc (talk) 17:37, 3 February 2019 (UTC)

Okay, thanks. Odd that they haven't updated it on their other sites but thanks for the info!   DipperDolphin |talk  17:39, 3 February 2019 (UTC)

New Third Party Sources

Hello, I’m new to editing on Wikipedia but trying my best through third party sources (Plane & Pilot Magazine, FSElite, Helisimmer, ect.) to add more detail to the first main description and gameplay section, as there is more/some third party coverage in the past year or more to reference. Do you have any tips on how to best accomplish this without all of the revisions getting reverted for trivial or unknown reasons? Hellotrio (talk) 02:30, 4 May 2019 (UTC)

Sure, I'd suggest reading our general guide to source reliability and then our specific guide for video game sources, maybe even a few discussions about video game source reliability. You can also start discussions there about any sources you find, or bring them to the Talk page here. When evaluating sources, we ask these kinds of questions:

1. What kind of article is it? A review? Technical breakdown? Feature or update announcement? Opinion/editorial? Interview? Press release? Forum post? Was it paid or sponsored? How long is it? Does it mention the subject in passing or is it about the subject?
2. Who wrote the article? What is their background? Have they written for other publications? For example, are they a professional video game journalist with articles published at numerous magazines/sites, or an anonymous gamer?
3. Who published the article? Is there a clear editorial structure or masthead? Do they have editorial guidelines? Do they fact check? Do they issue retractions? Is there a physical address?
4. Does the source have "a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy"? Do other reliable sources quote or repost them uncritically? Has the author or publisher won any major journalism awards? Has the author or publisher been criticized for errors?

I hope this helps! Cheers! Woodroar (talk) 13:54, 4 May 2019 (UTC)

Thank you! I’ll take a look at all of that that you linked and take all of that into consideration before attempting to edit again. Cheers! Hellotrio (talk) 14:34, 4 May 2019 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion:

• Infinite Flight logo.png

You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 13:36, 3 September 2019 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion:

• Infinite flight.jpg

You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 06:51, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

Project Wikipedia

Hi Everyone,

I have officially started a group of editors who will help re-vamp the IF Wikipedia page. We have contacted a moderator for approval. — Preceding unsigned comment added by IDubbz4LivesWasTaken (talk • contribs) 05:44, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

IDubbz4LivesWasTaken, Welcome to Wikipedia. A couple of things you need to be aware of before going too crazy. First, Wikipedia doesn't have moderators they way forums do - we have administrators who are there to make sure Wikipedia policies are followed (especially around reliable sources, verifiability and others. They don't make content decisions, those are made by consensus among editors. There have been multiple effort before from the IF community to push this more towards a fan page, that's not what Wikipedia is for. You can see some of the discussions that happened here in previous discussions and there are also some good threads on the IF community boards, especially here that may be helpful and informative. Ravensfire (talk) 18:35, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

• Note that the "group of editors" mentioned above is yet more offsite coordination. Woodroar (talk) 14:18, 18 January 2020 (UTC)