Closed. Two of the editors listed have replied with complaints about the conduct of the filing editor. They made the statements here because they were replying. They can report the conduct issues at WP:ANI. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:19, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
Closed discussion
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Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
The lede of the article is constantly being edited by users (often of dubious background) who want to present Losurdo as an ordinary Marxist philosopher despite the fact that he was a lifelong Communist and a Marxist-Leninist. Also, a ton of reliable sources which point out the fact that he is in public mostly known for his defense of Stalinism, and that he is actually a Neo-Stalinist, are being simply ignored in favour of the claim that he is known for his critique of imperialism, colonialism etc. which are actually not unique to Losurdo but are mainstream.
How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?
Please read the talk page and advise on how to write the lede of the article.
Summary of dispute by BunnyyHop
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Summary of dispute by Davide King
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I am not going to repeat things, so just look at this comment, where I analyse and explain what sources actually say and why the IP's edits were BLP and NPOV violations, including synthesis of sources to make a point and state it as fact rather than attribute it. I would also note they reported me once at the ANI and it was a failure. I would like to focus on the personal attacks and harrassement through hounding they made at Talk:Domenico Losurdo, including personal attacks such as accussing other users of allegedly sympathising with Stalinism or alleging that BunnyyHop and I were conspiring against them, even though I had several disagreements with BunnyyHop at Talk:Marxism–Leninism.
The IP wrote "I'm not accusing anyone of being a convinced Stalinist nor do I want to draw others into this discussion, but on the other hand, I can see that you and Bunny hop are cooperating very well, whether consciously or unconsciously", implying there is meatpuppetry or sockpuppetry, again without evidence and ignoring I have actually disagree with the other user on several points elsewhere here. This is not consistent with what they actually wrote, without evidence, namely that "[t]his page is constantly edited and vandalised by users who sympathize Stalinism" and "[t]his is being done by users who are of Stalinist background. For example, the last time the article was edited it was by an user called User:Davide King who under the same name ('David King') promotes Stalinism on Quora and has the picture of Stalin as his profile picture there."
Again, the IP falsely and quite literally accused me of being a Stalinist (so much for "not accusing anyone of being a Stalinist"), without evidence, when I do not really use Quora, I am not even sure I actually created an account, I only log in through Gmail, I did not make any question or answered any and this was based on the similarly of the name ("David King" and "Davide King", even though my username is Davide King; by this perverse logic and unsubstantiated accusation, am I a sockpuppet of User:David King?). Finally, the IP engaged in edit warring and they were reverted by at least four editors, one of which (4thfile4thrank) is not involved here. Davide King (talk) 19:05, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
Summary of dispute by C.Fred
The IP has been repeatedly edit warring the article. The crux of their changes is the terminology, changing Marxist to Marxist-Leninist. While the user has attempted to discuss on the talk page and they have presented sources, they have not presented concrete changes, and their remarks have contained personal attacks toward other editors. That's why I've suggested to the IP to have a specific discussion on the article talk page and lay off the personal attacks. All my edits to the article have been as an administrator responding to edit warring and disruptive editing against consensus. —C.Fred (talk) 17:51, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
Domenico Losurdo discussion
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Bear Witness, Take Action
Dispute resolved successfully. See comments for reasoning.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I've proposed a few edits to fix significant mistakes in the lead and to add notable supporting sources. Most importantly, that an event was a one-off, when it is in fact recurring. The editor who originally wrote the article responded by saying no change is necessary. I cannot edit the article myself since I have a COI.
How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?
It would be great to have an experienced Wikipedia editor weigh in here. Thank you.
Summary of dispute by Gerald_Waldo_Luis
event was a one-off, when it is in fact recurring. Nobody was notified of a sequel when or before it is released. We were just told "Oh, we're gonna do this livestream cuz of the protests and stuff." A lot of films use this style too, like Jaws (film). I don't see any problem with the prose. I'll just reword "teleconference," but apart from that, see no problem. GeraldWL02:17, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
Bear Witness, Take Action discussion
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@Seemplez: Unfortunately, no. In addition to correcting the teleconference language, "Bear Witness, Take Action" is now a series, and it is an obvious mistake to say it happened once. It is not Jaws, in which a sequel would have its own article. It is the same exact initiative, and anyone looking this up will be deceived by the present statement of facts. The article is also missing sourcing required by WP:SOURCE and other corrections, which I have provided on the talk page. Thanks.
@Oceans87 and Gerald Waldo Luis: If there is now more than one of these livestreams, then that makes it a series. Just because no one knew about the sequel doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I think you should reword to "series of livestreams" wherever you can. If you both agree then I will close as resolved, if not I'll close as failed and open to RfC. Seemplez08:42, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
@Oceans87 and Seemplez: a series usually refer to multiple parts, not two. That's why Plandemic is "a pair of videos," and why House MD is a "TV series." If there are sources saying that it will in fact have more episodes, then I'll agree on calling it a series. But if there's none, maybe the latter's already fine imo. GeraldWL08:55, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
@Seemplez: A "pair of livestreams" is fine until a third is released - then we can revisit. Plus, I think it would be a good idea to also follow the WP:SOURCE to fix the sourcing in the article about the artists.Oceans87 (talk) 17:13, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
@Seemplez: MSN syndicated the article from Entertainment Tonight, which is considered reliable after checking reliable sources noticeboard. Currently the only source in the lead is The Futon Critic. It would be great if the article could be corrected regarding the "one-time" event, as it is particularly misleading to the public now with people looking it up, since the event is in two days and was featured in Newsweek [1]Oceans87 (talk) 19:08, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
@Oceans87 and Gerald Waldo Luis: I don't have the time tomorrow to change this article. GWL, will you agree to change the article to the paragraph in the talk page, substituting "series of livestreams" for "pair of livestreams"? If so, I'll close as resolved. Seemplez12:23, 4 December 2020 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Premature. Like all other moderated content dispute resolution venues at Wikipedia, DRN requires extensive talk page discussion before seeking assistance. If an editor will not discuss, consider the recommendations which are made here. Just a suggestion: As a newcomer, help for this kind of thing is best obtained from the Wikipedia Teahouse, which is designed to help new editors. — TransporterMan (TALK) 19:44, 8 December 2020 (UTC)
Closed discussion
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Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
I have added a link to my website next to my direct competitor. This link has been removed from 3 Wikipedia pages. I have asked for feedback and received none. How is my direct competitor's link valid but mine is not?
How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?
Remove my competitor's link or add mine. We list the exact same information.
Summary of dispute by Praxidicae
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User talk:Kizyxolive discussion
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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Closed. There has not been any discussion on the article talk page, Talk:Maurice Gross, in the past two years. There also does not appear to have been any content dispute about Maurice Gross. If there is a content dispute, the filing editor should discuss it on an article talk page. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:30, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
Closed discussion
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Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
I believe no-one should use Maurice Gross honorable reputation to try to legitimise any piece of work, and surely not Unitex.
How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?
I already intervened on Maurice Gross' page and one editor did agree to remove any reference to the Unitex page. However, some people involved with the Unitex software keep re-adding references to it.
How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?
As Unitex did not even exist during Maurice Gross's life, I believe it has no place in that page.
Unitex is not a scientific piece of work: Wikipedia should not be used to legitimise it.
Note that all French Universities are state-owned and therefore cannot lodge a complain to each other. This explains why, even though the "Agence pour la Protection des Programmes" has described Unitex as a counterfeit, there is nothing one can do to ban Unitex.
Maurice Gross discussion
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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Closed as failed. The participants have not responded to requests to propose the content for a Request for Comments, but are continuing to engage in back-and-forth discussion. While back-and-forth discussion is permitted, the fact that the editors are engaging in discussion without contributing to the RFC indicates that they have not gone away, but either do not want to resolve the case or do not want to resolve it via DRN or RFC. I don't think that the content dispute is likely to be settled in calendar 2020. If there are conduct issues, report them to WP:ANI. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:23, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
Closed discussion
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
A discussion on Indonesia's Modern era section has been under discussion for weeks. I was trying to update the content on the section by adding links to notable events, but over time, my improvements were rejected (possibly because of content ownership.
How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?
Please help the discussion reach a consensus since this seems to have gone for quite some time, and neutral comments from experienced editors might be useful whether my edits are improvement or not.
Summary of dispute by AdaCiccone
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My position on this:
Sub-articles are created for a reason. Editors should utilise them to expand further what's already on the main article. Not literally every information should be put on the main.
Information on a sub is not in any way less valuable or visible than those on the main.
User:NouVa has asked several times about the number of post-2004 events (and how notable they are), to which I have responded several times that that is not the point here. My point is similar with other editors involved here, that if they were to be included, they have to be seen within the lens of the entire history of Indonesia.
It's better to take a wait-and-see approach when it comes to recent events. If their impact took effect in the near future in a "watershed moment" way, then I believe few would have problem with such information (the impact) being on the main. AdaCiccone (talk) 03:18, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
Summary of dispute by Juxlos
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I'm not entirely sure why NouVa is still claiming content ownership when a good amount of users have explained how his edits constitutes RECENTISM and thinks that this is DRN material. Regardless, the current dispute is regarding his intention to present events that other editors consider insufficiently notable for inclusion in a top-level article.
Austronesier I think elaborates the contents of the "dispute" sufficiently - primarily, an entire paragraph's worth of a number of events which are about a year old in the "History" section (admittedly "Modern history" subsection), and none of them are even about the COVID-19 pandemic in Indonesia. It is plainly absurd to present a series of protests with none or single digit deaths and no ensuing changes to laws or political structures with equal or more prominence with events that still have consequences fifty years ahead.
I would also point out that NouVa has clearly ignored the consensus of existing editors in order to push his version of the article - and yet still claiming an ownership bias. Juxlos (talk) 22:33, 5 December 2020 (UTC)
Summary of dispute by CMD
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Summary of dispute by Austronesier
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
In a nutshell: the "History" section of Indonesia gives a brief condensed summary of Indonesian history, which amounts to ca. 900 words of text (including image captions) in the "stable" version. Even the most traumatic events such as the mass killings of 1965-66 are given very dense space ("The army, led by Major General Suharto, countered by instigating a violent anti-communist purge that killed between 500,000 and one million people" – that's all). For detailed information, readers are referred to History of Indonesia and further subpages. User:NouVa wants to expand Indonesia#History with information of rather recent events, some of which are notable news which made it to international headlines (e.g. mass demonstrations after the two inaugurations of the current president Joko Widodo, or after some of his controversial policy decisions), but which will have zero impact on the timeline of Indonesian history. The only apparent reason to give these events coverage in this brief overview is that they were recent. So from my perspective this is about WP:DUE vs. WP:recentism. Ironically, WP:OWN is cited. I have made very few edits to Indonesia. I just happen to disagree with User:NouVa's approach of WP:recentism, which I have voiced in the talk page.
FWIW, no one opposes the inclusion of events post-2004 (the year of the Aceh tsunami), but whatever is inserted there, should not give undue weight to events of secondary importance, if weighed against the other content of this 900-word summary section. –Austronesier (talk) 18:57, 5 December 2020 (UTC)
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
My main concern when filing this case is that my content additions about several major riots, and massive unrest through links and refs to the respective articles (which have significant coverage on the mainstream news outlets WP:SIGCOV) are well deserved to be put in the Indonesia article which the latest info of "Modern era" is about 2004 event, while some editors simply removed them without any effort to preserve some points. At the same time, I strongly disagree about wp:Recentism accusations on my edits because the current content of Modern era section is outdated; Also, Recentism does not mean such edits should immediately be removed. Otherwise, do @Juxlos: thinks that OLDERISM (putting 14 years old event) is better info to be put for "Modern era" of a country having a number of significant events in the last decade?
For @Juxlos:Content Ownership definition is the behaviour to prevent/control any changes or any contributions to article, while what I've done is adding some notable contents to improve it, and not my intention to remove any contribution. Addition ^ @Juxlos: If you doubt about evidence of much control of the content (ownership) I give you this link to show how an editor making more than 40 edits in same article only in last 2 months.
@Austronesier: If you mind about 'more-or-less 900 words'; you can paraphrase the text while not completely removing the points.
My hope for moderator is to consider whether edits like this or this addition {of 3-7 sentences} is deserved to be add on the article, based on (WP:GNG) Notability guideline. Actually, those additions are improving the content and are not violating any fundamental principles, nor deserved to be reverted. (NouVa (talk) 16:16, 6 December 2020 (UTC))
Indonesia discussion
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First statement by moderator (Indonesia)
The first concern is to focus what the disagreement is about, and so decide whether moderated discussion leading to compromise is the way to resolve the dispute. An alternative might be a Request for Comments. Please read and follow the rules. I will restate some of the rules. Be civil and concise. In particular, overly long statements do not clarify the issues, even if they enable the editor making the statement to feel better. Comment on content, not on contributors. The purpose of this dispute resolution is to improve the article.
Do not reply to each other in the space for statements. Your statements should be addressed to me and to the community. If you want to reply to each other, do it in the space for back-and-forth discussion, and we can ignore the back-and-forth.
Each editor is asked to make a one-paragraph statement as to what they want changed in the article, or left the same if someone else wants to change it. We can address why in the next round. If at least two editors want to engage in moderated discussion, we will have moderated discussion. If you want to have an RFC, then say so. Please provide a one-paragraph statement.
Robert McClenon (talk) 23:49, 5 December 2020 (UTC)
Statement by Juxlos: I'm not certain what an RfC would bring here. There is already a clear consensus against the edits, and even a DRN already feels like an attempt to prolong the dispute to force a single editor's viewpoint. NouVa is trying to use new article GNG criteria in order to include low-importance content in a top-level article. Regardless, go ahead. Juxlos (talk) 23:47, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
Statement by AdaCiccone: I don't mind an RfC but I don't think it would be of much of a solution. Nevertheless, go ahead. AdaCiccone (talk) 00:58, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
Statement by Chipmunkdavis: I do not believe an RfC would be a productive use of time. There is a consensus against the proposed edits as it stands, with inputs from a number of editors. An RfC cannot solve wp:main article fixation. CMD (talk) 12:06, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
Statement by NouVa: RFC is not necessary for this case, for me, just need reasonable judgement from the experienced editors whether my content edits deserved to be added on the article based on the existing rules... /NouVa (talk) 14:56, 7 December 2020 (UTC)/
Second statement by moderator
One editor supports an RFC. Two other editors comment on whether there should be an RFC. Maybe I wasn't clear in my question. Please make a one-paragraph statement as to what the content issue is. What do you want changed, or left the same? An RFC asks a question about whether to make some change to the article. Is there a disagreement about what should be said in the lede of the article about the modern history of Indonesia? And is modern defined as post-independence? Robert McClenon (talk) 05:21, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
Statement by Austronesier: The question is solely about the inclusion of material in the section Indonesia#History (which is a summary, complete with hatnote to the main article History of Indonesia). The inclusion in other articles (e.g. the "lede of the article about the modern history of Indonesia", which would be History of Indonesia or one of further subs) is not matter of the dispute. NouVa is informed about the existence of those other articles, but specifically wants include the material in the "History"-section of the general article Indonesia; failure to gain support so far from any other editor brought them to DRN. IMO, none of the material which NouVa wants to add is due for inclusion in the summary-style section Indonesia#History—which only gives a bird's-eye view of the milestones in Indonesian history. This is not because the material is recent (that's a red herring), but because it is of insufficient importance/impact. That said, an RfC would be simply stated: "Should information about [add list of concrete material that NouVa wants to include] be included in the section Indonesia#History?" Speaking for myself, I would gladly elicit input from other editors (beyond the range of page watchers of Indonesia) that see things differently than I do; that's how we create wide consensus. –Austronesier (talk) 08:52, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
Statement by NouVa: My simple question is - Do my edits violate any rule that deserve to be reverted? If not so, I don't think it is acceptable to remove them while there are editors trying to contribute and help the active progress of content article, rather than keep the current version.
Just perspective, If anyone will give any newer info than 2004 tsunami story, either events of post-2004 or news from 2010s decade - even 2020 pandemic related news - I would not have make the edits that being protested now. (NouVa (talk) 14:56, 7 December 2020 (UTC))
Statement by Juxlos: It does not matter that it does not violate any rules - adding the results of the 2018 Bogor regency election does not violate any rules, either, and the event is notable and happened within Indonesia, but we don't do that because it would be silly to include something so comparatively unimportant in the Indonesia article. Please do not keep shifting the argument as if we have been saying the events are not notable and ignoring literally every editor's statement saying that those belong on secondary articles. Juxlos (talk) 23:42, 8 December 2020 (UTC)
Third statement by moderator (Indonesia)
I don't seem to have explained adequately what I am asking. What part of the article in particular is the issue about? Is it about the body of the article, or the lede section of the article? I am inferring that it is about whether to include particular modern events in the lede section. If you can't explain in one paragraph what part of the article you want changed, or left the same, we can't have an RFC, and we don't know what to compromise about.
One editor asks: "Do my edits violate any rule that deserve to be reverted? If not so, I don't think it is acceptable to remove them." The rule in question is probably the concept of due weight in the lede.
Maybe there is no point in my saying to read the rules, so maybe I need to provide the rules in your faces:
Here are the ground rules for any mediation that is conducted at DRN where the moderator specifies Rule A:
Civility is required everywhere in Wikipedia and is essential in dispute resolution. Uncivil statements may be collapsed.
Overly long statements do not clarify issues. (They may make the author feel better, but the objective is to discuss the article constructively.) Overly long statements may be collapsed, and the party may be told to summarize them. Read Too Long, Didn't Read, and don't write anything that is too long for other editors to read. If the moderator says to write one paragraph, that means one paragraph of reasonable length.
Discussion of issues about the article and the editing of the article can only take place at one noticeboard at a time. Any old discussion at any other noticeboards must be closed or suspended. If you report any issues about the article at any other noticeboards, such as WP:ANI or Arbitration Enforcement, you will be withdrawing from moderated discussion, and the mediation will be failed.
Comment on content, not contributors.
The purpose of discussion is to improve the article, not to complain about other editors. (There may be a combination of content issues and conduct issues, but resolving the content issue often mitigates the conduct issue or permits it to subside.) Uncivil comments or comments about other editors may be suppressed.
"Comment on content, not contributors" means that if you are asked to summarize what you want changed in the article, or left the same, it is not necessary or useful to name the other editors, but it may be important to identify the paragraphs or locations in the article. It isn't necessary to identify the other editors with whom you disagree.
Discuss edits, not editors. This means the same as "Comment on content, not contributors". It is repeated because it needs repeating.
Do not engage in back-and-forth discussion to statements by other editors; that is, do not reply to the comments of other editors. That has already been tried and has not resolved the content dispute (since talk page discussion is a precondition for discussion at DRN). Address your comments to the moderator and the community. Except in a section for back-and-forth discussion, replies to other editors or back-and-forth discussion may be collapsed by the moderator and may result in a rebuke.
Do not edit the article while moderated discussion is in progress. If the article is edited by a party while discussion is pending at DRN, the mediation at DRN will be failed.
If there has been edit-warring over versions of the article, the moderator will not select which version is the "right" version to be displayed during moderated discussion. Simply stop edit-warring. The purpose of moderated discussion is to select between versions of the article, and the moderator will not act as an arbitrator.
Do not communicate with the moderator on their user talk page. This is seen by other editors as trying to run around them. If you have a question for the moderator, ask it at DRN.
It would be better not to discuss the article on the article talk page or on user talk pages while moderated discussion is in progress, because discussion elsewhere than at DRN may be overlooked or ignored.
The moderator may not have any background knowledge about the subject. It is the responsibility of the editors, who are familiar with the subject matter, to inform the moderator about the subject matter, just as the purpose of the article is to inform the readers about the subject matter.
Be specific at DRN. Do not simply say that a section should be improved, but tell what improvement should be made. Do not simply say that "All viewpoints must be discussed", but identify the missing viewpoints. If you say that the article has BLP violations, specify how they can be corrected.
The moderator will provide a section for back-and-forth comments. Keep your comments in that section, so that anyone else can ignore them. Comments in the back-and-forth section, like everywhere else, must be civil.
Every participant is expected to check on the case at least every 48 hours and to answer questions within 48 hours.
What part of not editing the article wasn't clear? Do not edit the article while discussion is in progress.
Statement by AdaCiccone: The core of this dispute is about the inclusion of recent events one editor thinks is important but the other four (myself included) do not. It's not in the lead section, but a subsection (Modern era) in the 'History' section (which is two sections after the lead). I myself do not think a change is necessary. The current version is adequate already and should be left the same.
AdaCiccone (talk) 03:00, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
Statement by Austronesier: No, the dispute is not about the lede. The dispute is about the article Indonesia > section "History" > subsection "Modern era". "Modern era" refers to the period starting from the recognition of independence in 1949. One editor wants to add information to said subsection (I leave it to them to explain which information), four editors including myself reject these additions. I have said on two occasions that the dispute is about the History section of Indonesia (I admit not to have specified it down to the subsection level). Yet it was inferred that the dispute is about the lede. My straightforward information as a direct answer to the questions posed has been ignored twice; for this reason, I will not continue to contribute further to the discussion. From my perspective, I consider this moderation failed. Nevertheless, I will accept the result of the dispute resolution as continued by the remaining particpants, whatever its outcome. During this time I will not edit the contentious part of Indonesia, which is the History section, nor engage in discussions in Talk:Indonesia (or any other forum) about this specific content dispute. But I will not refrain from doing edits to the remaining non-contentious 11 sections of that article, and will continue to discuss other unrelated topics in that article, if there is reason to do so. @Robert McClenon: Thank you for your efforts so far. –Austronesier (talk) 09:11, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
Fourth statement by moderator (Indonesia)
One editor says that they will not be taking part in any further discussion, but that they will accept the result of the moderation. If at least two editors are prepared to contribute their views to a Request for Comments, I will be posting a RFC. The editor who has said that they do not want to discuss further is still welcome to contribute to the RFC. It is my understanding that the main issue has to do with an addition to the section Modern Era. Will each editor please state concisely what they want in the article (or what they do not want in the article), so that I can formulate a concise neutrally worded RFC? If there are two distinct portions of the article that have questions, then we can have a two-part RFC. If there is also an issue about History of Indonesia, then we can have two RFCs. Will each editor please state concisely, within 48 hours, what they want the RFC to ask about?
Robert McClenon (talk) 18:39, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
It's not about subjective - one editor thinks is important but the others do not... - but it's about objective whether my previous content addition is deserved to be reverted while it's not violating any Wikipedia policies or guidelines, even link to main modern history article Post-Suharto era was reverted [1]. So the problem is whether 'personal' opinions about the importance, (by saying I myself do not think) which halt the progress of article or the rules of notability and significant coverage become the main concerns for the further improvement of the content. # NouVa (talk) 07:53, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
Arguments (yours, mine and the other three editors') have already been put forth in the Summary of dispute by and the First and second statements by editors sections. The moderator is clear that he only wants a one-paragraph statement, stating what should be changed or left the same. That is what my recent comment (before yours) is for (simply answering the moderator) because there's no absolutely no point of me repeating my arguments. AdaCiccone (talk) 08:58, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
I am not going to repeat my argument for the fourth time so NouVa can claim OWNERSHIP and refer to GNG a fifth time, either. My argument is best summarized by the essay: Wikipedia:But for Napoleon, it was Tuesday - to the protesters, what they're doing is the most important thing in history, and to the state of Indonesia, it was a month in 2020. Juxlos (talk) 12:27, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
Wikipedia is based on good faith cooperation managed by the guidelines, and the Wikipedia's contents would have never grown as great as today without open minded contributors who let any significant progress toward the ongoing improved articles over time, instead of removing the changes and stopping the content additions for personal reasons... I hope the moderator here would give advice or possible solution over the problem, I believe the problem will not wisely be solved through Rfc but the problem is about some users' preferences who keep persisting their views about what addition should or shouldn't be allowed on an article section, while the addition itself is relevant and following Wikipedia guidelines. I guess this is a behavioral problem, should I report to ANI instead? * NouVa (talk) 08:55, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
@NouVa, AdaCiccone, Juxlos, and Chipmunkdavis: I won't continue to contribute to this discussion. I will accept the outcome of the further dispute resolution. As a courtesy, please inform me about its outcome. I will happily accept and support the consensus found as a result of a successful dispute resolution. In case it fails, please inform me where you intend to proceed. Thanks and good luck! –Austronesier (talk) 09:21, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
NouVa You are threatening to report to ANI for... practically all other editors of an article agreeing that your edits should not be included and refusing to yield after your consistent pestering. Go ahead, but it will most likely end with you getting a warning. Juxlos (talk) 01:03, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
@AdaCiccone: If you look for evidences of OWN, how about these few cases (from hundreds of edits) [2][3][4][5][6] showing an editor easily removing added referenced contents by other editors who made efforts to develop the article, while a single editor not giving a chance to preserve the references given by them without providing a single relevant Wikipedia policy.
@Chipmunkdavis: Do you understand this? In determining consensus, consider the quality of the arguments, the history of how they came about, the objections of those who disagree, and existing policies and guidelines. The quality of an argument is more important than whether it represents a minority or a majority view. The arguments "I just don't like it" and "I just like it" usually carry no weight whatsoever.
So just to say " I don't like," "I don't think. . . important..." etc. does not mean the editors should follow your own preferences and disagreements, above the the fundamental guidelines/policies which are the basis of content inclusion on an article. Such a opinion showing things which not compatible with a collaborative project and obviously Disruptive.
If such editors who using more of their own thinking on this Wikipedia to prevent changes over the rules and revert justified article changes repeatedly over an extended period without providing relevant Wikipedia policies and guidelines to support the reverts is clear form of "Ownership" actions. READ it well While the main effects could be two: either it will eliminate potential contributors to make futher improvements or make such editors become more authoritaritative by not letting anyone to involve, except those suitable in their own views regardless the guidelines. NouVa (talk) 05:26, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Wikipedia talk:WikiProject_London#Standardisation_for_all_London_Neigbourhood_/_Area_Pages
Closed. One of the editors has reported another editor to WP:ANI for disruptive editing of these articles. There has also been no participation here. If any editors want to start a new discussion here after the dispute at WP:ANI is resolved somehow, a new request can be filed here. Robert McClenon (talk) 05:37, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
Closed discussion
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
For a long while there was a loose formula for the opening paragraph for areas of London articles along the lines of: “X is an area of (compass-direction) London…”. This is an accepted standard and consensus reached by editors actively involved in the WikiProject London and had been for many years. About a year ago, a new editor took it upon themselves to inject some of their POV and mass change these opening paragraphs of these articles. Nobody really challenged them at the time (I was taking a break from Wikipedia editing at this time, otherwise I would have). I have returned recently to see the mess they created is still there, long after this user disappeared. I decided to try to change them back, but as soon as I did my edits were reverted? I decided to open a discussion about it to make people realise this is the previous standard (and also initially to try to improve further although this was shot down). However, users like Roger 8 Roger have prattled on about a load of nonsense and nothing has been done. All I am trying to do is to restore these articles to how they were before they were mass-edited based on POV.
How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Summary of dispute by Magnolia677
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Summary of dispute by Lord Belbury
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Not sure why my name is here, all I did was revert JustGravy when they started prematurely applying their desired outcome of the RFC to London articles citing the RFC as a reason for the edit (eg. [7]), and asked them to wait for the RFC to be closed. I'm not aware of the past disagreements over compass directions in London articles. --Lord Belbury (talk) 10:12, 9 December 2020 (UTC)
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
I have no dog in this hunt. I only performed some dispute resolution maintenance (noting a 3O removal and giving a bit of advice). I'm not a party to this dispute or discussion, will not be participating here, and do not need to be considered in any further procedures here at DRN. Also, I will not be acting as a DRN volunteer in this case. I would remind the filing party, however, that it is their obligation under the DRN rules to post a notice of this filing on each user's talk page. There's a template set out at the top of this page that can be used for that purpose. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 19:37, 8 December 2020 (UTC)
Summary of dispute by Schazjmd
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Wikipedia talk:WikiProject_London#Standardisation_for_all_London_Neigbourhood_/_Area_Pages discussion
Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
If no one minds me facilitating this conversation, we may continue when everyone has commented in their respective spaces. Heart(talk)03:37, 9 December 2020 (UTC)
Please notify everyone by leaving {{subst:drn-notice}} on each of their talk pages, a message on the talkpage of the project will not suffice. Heart(talk)03:41, 9 December 2020 (UTC)
I do not understand how Roger can even say there is no dispute? He is disputing the removal of "Greater" from "Greater London" and he is disputing that historic county information should not be placed in the lead for all London area articles. Even though this goes against what was previously agreed by many editors, and had been agreed for a while before he showed up to Wikipedia. Justgravy (talk) 21:44, 9 December 2020 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Section "Outremer" fails to give an explanation for the article's title ("Crusader states" instead of "Outremer"). The same section does not clarify the relevance of the term "Franks" in the article's context. Borsoka (talk) 03:29, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?
This is not a single dispute, and possibly a dispute at all. There are two questions that if the sourcing is respected could be dealt with on the Talk page or at the very worst through two RFCs.
The two points of contention are: 1) Whether the term used as the article's name, e.g. Crusader states'‘, is misleading, and therefore that should be mentioned in the article. 2) The nomenclature of the name most used as a collective noun for the incomers to the Holy Land that the article discusses e.g. Frank.
Crusader states/Outremer
On WP the name of the article(s) has already been discussed. It was successfully proposed that the Outremer article be merged with Crusader states at Talk:Crusader_states/Archive_1#Merge_from_Outremer. The consensus was against moving Crusader States back to Outremer with this debate Talk:Crusader_states/Archive_1#Requested_move_10_March_2020.
There is no question that both descriptors satisfy WP:COMMONNAME. There is no doubt that academics use both terms. For example, Tyerman in God’s War uses Outremer 275 times and Crusader states 15. Barber in a work called The Crusader States uses Outremer 17 times and Crusader States 148 times.
That said historians do not agree whether these terms are accurate. Professor Christopher MacEvitt, Faculty Director at Dartmouth (https://faculty-directory.dartmouth.edu/christopher-macevitt ) among a general critique of the usage of the term crusader states published a paper What was Crusader about the Crusader States? ( Al-Masāq, xxx (2018), pp. 317–30). A response is cited in the article in by Andrew D Buck, formerly of Queen Mary University (https://www.researchgate.net/scientific-contributions/Andrew-D-Buck-2123225758 ) and now a specialist at University College, Dublin. Academics do not agree on this, and it is clear there is no consensus among them.
For the lay WP reader this is probably confusing, and the casual use of these terms is misleading, it implies a certainty that does not exist. The article deals with this by using the passage cited in the article by Dr Allan Murray of the University of Leeds ( https://ahc.leeds.ac.uk/history/staff/1010/dr-alan-v-murray ): An alternative name for the four Frankish principalities in modern historical writing is the “Crusader States.” Although common, this term is less accurate, since after around 1130 extremely few of their Frankish inhabitants were actually crusaders, in the sense of people who had taken a vow to go on crusade. Thomas Asbridge, reader in medieval history at Queen Mary University ( https://www.qmul.ac.uk/history/people//academic-staff/profiles/asbridgetom.html ) cited in support of this writes The term ‘crusader states’ is somewhat misleading, as it gives the impression that these settlements were exclusively populated by crusaders and that their history might be interpreted as an example of ongoing crusading activity. he goes onto acknowledge The issue of the continued influence of crusading ideology over the history of the Latin East is a more vexed question. ' he then refers to a Riley-Smith article, but the work of MacEvitt and Buck is in the same area.(page 115 and page 698 note 49)
WP:COMMONSENSE would indicate that the article should use a title that is readily understood, but where that title could be misleading, contested or not completely accurate it should be mentioned. The article does this in the lead to explain the Outremer redirect and in the body for sourcing and expansion. There may be copy editing required, but no need for tagging or substantive change.
Franks
The chronology and etymology of the term is clear. Franks were a Germanic tribe that invaded Western Europe between the 8th and 10thcenturies. These became known in the Eastern Roman Empire by the Greek Frangoi and later the Arabic al-Ifranj. Overtime, in the East the term became used for all Westerners. When the First Crusade arrived, chroniclers used the Latin variant Franci, both for subjects of the king of France and for all the crusaders. It is likely that this reflects actual linguistic usage and the adoption of the term by the Roman Catholic and predominantly French speaking incomers, as Murray again puts it, sourced in the article to pages 297 to 298.
The term Franks is widely used today by academic and popular historians for all the crusaders, the immigrants that followed from western Europe and their descendants in the crusader states. Cobb is his work cited in the article uses the term 740 times. It is right the term is explained for lay readers, particularly considering the this was a result of self-identification of a people the article is about. Murray again summarises well: However, it is also used to refer to all members of the crusader armies, irrespective of nationality or origins, particularly with reference to the later stages of the crusade and the beginning of the Latin settlement in Syria and Palestine. It seems likely that the chronicles, some of which were composed by eyewitnesses, reflect actual linguistic usage; having become familiar with Byzantine and Arabic terms for “Franks” in the course of the crusade, the crusaders themselves and, increasingly, their descendants who remained in the East adopted the name as a convenient self-designation to reflect the realities of life in a region where their own diverse origins were far less important than the crucial social and legal distinctions between dominant Latin Westerners on the one hand and the various native peoples on the other. The Arabic, Syriac, and Armenian sources that touch on events in Outremer generally refer to its Latin Christian inhabitants as Franks in their own languages.
The chronicles of the First Crusade sometimes used Franci, both for subjects of the king of France and for all the crusaders. It is likely that this reflects actual linguistic usage and the adoption of the term by the Roman Catholic and predominantly French speaking incomers. was tagged clarify with the reason We are informed that the participants of the First Crusade were called Franci. Why is this relevant in the article's context? What was the ethnonym of the Roman Catholic inhabitants of the crusader states? despite the academic consensus Murray was cited as supporting on pages 470 to 471 in the work in Crusader_states#Bibliography and the article requiring some explanation of an academic term.
Modern scholars commonly use the term Franks for the crusaders, was tagged dubious with the reason Can you refer to a modern scholar who use the ethnonym "Franks" when referring to King Sigurd the Crusader of Norway, King Conrad III of Germany or King Andrew II of Hungary? . We are debating a collective noun, the reason here is a redundant argument. Murray’s citation to pages 297 to 298 covers this.
Some historians consider the use of Crusader states as misleading because few Franks were crusaders. In the Middle Ages the states were often also collectively known as Syria or Syrie was tagged clarify with the reason If crusader states is a misleading term, why do we use it? Perhaps the article should move to have a neutral name. despite the rationale explained above.
Summary
The substantive information in the paragraph is supported by WP:RS. Crusader States is a contested term in academic circles, but WP:COMMONNAME for WP. Franks is a collective noun in common usage for all the Roman Catholic, predominantly French/Latin speaking incomers resident in the Latin East irrespective of their origin. The WP:COMMONSENSE resolution to this dispute is to accept this as the consensus among academics and remove all the tagging.Norfolkbigfish (talk) 13:47, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
Summary of dispute by Borsoka
The above summary does not reflect (and does not address) my concerns. 1. The article (not the sources cited in the article) fails to give an explanation for the article's title ("Crusader states" instead of "Outremer"), although it states that "Crusader states" is a misleading term. 2. The article (not the sources cited in the article) fails to explain the relevance of the term "Franks" in the article's context. What is important in the article's context is that the European settlers and their descendants in Outremer were called Francs and now are mentioned as Franks - all other information is irrelevant. Borsoka (talk) 09:53, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
Crusader states discussion
Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
Hello, I will be the volunteer to help resolve this dispute. Is there anything additional that needs to be said before we continue? BJackJStalk21:46, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
Alright then, I understand that User:Borsoka's concerns are the articles justification for the name 'Crusader states' and does not explain the term 'Franks' usage. I would be inclined to agree that an explanation of the term Outremer should be there, especially because of "The use of the description Crusader states can be misleading".
How about the explanation of the term Outremer: the lands on the far side of the Mediterranean Sea, seen from the perspective of Western Christians or some such variant. It is what Murray uses. Norfolkbigfish (talk) 18:41, 4 December 2020 (UTC)
It was an attempt to answer BJackJS's comment I would be inclined to agree that an explanation of the term Outremer should be there. Norfolkbigfish (talk) 08:30, 5 December 2020 (UTC) WP:COMMONNAME applies, a quick Google on the term gives c323,000 hits. It is also misleading, cited to academics working in the area. Norfolkbigfish (talk) 09:39, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
And? My concerns are not addressed. Are our readers required to read WP policies, closed RfCs and do our homework to explain the article's title if the article emphasizes that it is misleading? Borsoka (talk) 01:04, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
What name do you suggest, and what would you source it to? The fact remains that crusader states is a very common, probably the most common term, in general usage but academics consider it misleading, to the point of writing papers discussing the name. Norfolkbigfish (talk) 11:19, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
Could you please read my and BJackJS's comments more carefully? What is needed: a short explanation based on at least one reliable source explaining why is the article is titled "Crusader states" instead of "Outremer". Borsoka (talk) 12:00, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
I believe BJackJS was referring to a description of Outremer. I don't agree an explanation is necessary, and it is clear that neither do any of the works used as sources in the article. In order that this moves forward, why don't you draft an explanation and source it? Norfolkbigfish (talk) 12:19, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
If you can only verify the alternative name, Outremer, why do not you move the article from Crusader states to Outremer? Alternatively, you could refer to Asbridge (who is cited in the article). Borsoka (talk) 12:31, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
I've thought it is your turn and you want to fix the problem. A week ago, I drafted a text ([8]) that you deleted without any actual explanation ([9]). All the same, I drafted a new text ([10]). Borsoka (talk) 18:06, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
Crusaders were a minority, of a minority e.g. the Franks were a minority already, and crusaders were a minority within that. Considering Crusaders as part of the total populaton obscures this point. Otherwise, if it works for you there would seem to be no problem. Norfolkbigfish (talk) 20:37, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
Crusaders were a minority population within a minority Frankish population from around 1130. Do you think the "Crusader states" is not a misleading term before that date? Could you refer to a reliable source suggesting it? Borsoka (talk) 00:46, 8 December 2020 (UTC)
Me again. Would the post 1204 political entities on/around former Byzantine soil all be counted, without dissent, as part of "Outremer" by modern sources? Same question for those lands with regard to "Crusader States"? --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned!16:52, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
This is exactly the question that I decided not to raise weeks ago. :) For the time being, the article is obviously dedicated to the four states in Syria and Palestine (even Cyprus is ignored). Althogh the scope is limited, the article contains dozens (or hundreds) of sentences that present misinterpreted info from scholarly books or that are out of context. I think the article should be improved while its scope is limited and after it reaches the level of a GA, its name or its possible expansion could be discussed. Borsoka (talk) 17:55, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
Simple answer to your question Dweller is that the Frankokratia is not generally considered as part of Outremer. Similarly, it would be contested to include them under the umbrella of Crusader States. Some academics even challenge the inclusion of the four polities in the Levant and I have seen an argument made that only France under St Louis can be considered as fitting the description. It is clear that there is no consensus on the term. It is misleading because politically and organisationally they were only states with an active significant Catholic crusader population (under an unfulfilled oaths) for a tiny duration. For the majority of their existance their politics were secular and parochial. Those academics in favour look at the states' culture, art, literature, songs etc as Buck puts very well. That is difficult for the lay reader to understand and if this article followed that approach it would look very different, memoralisation would be the focus rather than chronology and politics. There is a space for that article but it is not this one, and it not what the lay reader would expect. It is still down to WP:COMMONNAME, the expectation is that the article is about the medieval Frankish incursion into Middle East. It is not a stretched definition that could include Malta in late 18thcentury. Although, I believe there is an argument in favour of that second article as well. Norfolkbigfish (talk) 12:39, 9 December 2020 (UTC)
Our usual method for dealing with things that are contentious is to go with the COMMONNME approach but then include cited material that critiques it and defends it. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned!12:48, 9 December 2020 (UTC)
Frankokratia is not generally considered as part of Outremer, but the Frankish states on the ruins of the Byzantine Empire are often listed among the crusader states. However, I suggest that we should accept the status quo and try to improve the article within its present scope. Whether its name properly reflects its subject (the four Frankish realms in Syria and Palestine) could be discussed later. Borsoka (talk) 14:28, 9 December 2020 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
First- there has been no discussion on the talk page, which alone makes this DRN premature. 2ndly- I don't think the DRN is the correct place to address this concern. Now, I will go on the talk page as a courtesy and remind the user of the policies regarding NPOV and the purpose of talk pages, but if you have concerns about behavior of a user, in the future please try the WP:ANI or try actually discussing the matter first, keeping in mind WP is not a place to market or try to recover service. Nightenbelle (talk) 17:34, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
Closed discussion
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
On the talk section, there are 2 posts which are ruining the good name of MutualArt.com.
I work at the company, and there is no problem at all with customer support, our lines are always active and we have quick email replies. According to the guidelins for the talk page:
"This page in a nutshell: Talk pages are for improving the encyclopedia, not for expressing personal opinions on a subject or an editor."
Calling the company a "scam" is a personal opinion. We offer services like other companies in the industry and we are completely legitimate. One user called StephenJPC has posted 2 posts calling the company a scam without any information to prove these false claims hurting our brand.
How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
This has not been discussed on the article talk page where many editors can contribute and discuss. Please try to discuss this on the article talk page, and if that does not work after a good faith effort, you may re-open a case on the DRN. Note: While it is considered bad manners to remove a section from an article talk page, users have control of their own talk pages. This is part of why we ask you discuss issues on the talk page attached to the relevant article- so that it isn't just deleted when someone is done with the discussion. Thank you. Nightenbelle (talk) 17:52, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
Closed discussion
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
The intro of the article correctly notes that all of the "classic" line-up of the band was dead by late 2018. I added a sentence to this that Larry Wallis's death in 2019 compounded the situation as it left founder drummer Lucas Fox alive from any lineup prior to 1982.
Sabbatino deleted this Wallis was not part of the "classic" lineup.
I wrote to Sabbatino's talk page and pointed out that my edit was not to do with the classic lineup but the separate issue of four out of five members 1975-1982 now being dead.
Sabbatino replied this had nothing to do with the *previous* sentence about the classic lineup. Sabbatino also added that Wallis was "not important".
I pointed out that the sentence about Wallias was a different sentence from the one about the classic lineup.
I was not sure what to make of the remark about Wallis being "not important" so I replied in brackets that Wallis was certainly important, regardless of whether he is relevant.
Sabbatino deleted the entire discussion from the talk page, declaring "I'm not wasting my time with someone who can't understand what I meant"
So now I must seek alternative avenues for resolving this.
How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?
This discusssion was on Sabbatino's talk page before Sabbatino blanked off the conversation:
[12]
How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?
Third (or more) opinion on whether my edit (mentioning how Wallis's death left Lucas Fox as last surviving member pre-1982) belongs in the article or not - bearing in mind it was a separate sentence from the one about the classic line-up.
Summary of dispute by Sabbatino
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Motörhead discussion
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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Premature. The primary means of working out a dispute such as this is to discuss it on the article talk page. Like all other moderated content dispute resolution venues at Wikipedia, DRN requires extensive talk page discussion before seeking assistance. If an editor will not discuss, consider the recommendations which are made here, though in this particular case asking for page protection may be necessary first. — TransporterMan (TALK) 18:45, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
Closed discussion
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
Someone who only edits using an IP address has recently kept reverting an edit from the 1997 section of this article and I keep reverting it back to my version. I have tried to modify the article to try to appease this editor but this editor still reverts the addition nonetheless. I see no other way to resolve this other than asking for a dispute resolution.
How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?
I've tried to reword the entry that the editor keeps reverting but the IP address continues to do this nonetheless. The editor posted a comment on my talkpage and then after I replied, 'undid' and ignored my reply and reposted with the same comment I'd replied to.
How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?
Can you please rule as to whose version of the 1997 section of this article should be used.
Summary of dispute by 82.3.149.129
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Timeline of BBC One discussion
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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Closed as premature. The filing editor has not tried to discuss their edits on the article talk page. Discussion on the article talk page is a precondition for discussion here. The use of either edit summaries or user talk pages is not a substitute for the use of article talk pages. There does not appear to have been any discussion at Talk:Lola Astanova. Also, the other editors should be listed, and have not been listed. Discuss at the article talk page. If discussion is lengthy and inconclusive, another request can be filed here, listing not only the filing editor but the other editors. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:26, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
Closed discussion
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
I am a fan of Lola Astanova, so periodically I add information to her page with references to open media sources. Over the past several months, several users appear to constantly make arbitrary changes to my additions and never providing any reasoning or references for changes. I have always explained my edits in the talk, but they simply remove my changes without engaging in the conversation or providing any grounds for their edits. Specifically, they do the following:
1. The constantly change the year of birth from 1985 (as I reference in a Haute Living magazine article) to 1982.
2. They constantly change the country of birth from USSR or Soviet Union to Uzbek SSR, which was NOT a country, but rather a region of the USSR where Ms. Astanova was born. It is inaccurate to call it "Uzbek SSR" by any measure.
3. They removed information regarding Ms. Astanova's duet of Hauser of the 2cellos, regarding her film project with Andrea Bocelli and David Foster, and regarding her electronic music release by Sony Music earlier this year.
Every single piece of information I added was referenced by public sources and was easily verifiable through iTunes, YouTube and other platforms where those projects are available. Removal of that information for no reason and with no explanation appears malicious. The users who are doing that appear to have an agenda and they are not sticking to just listing the facts with public source references. I am asking to please look into these instances and help protect the page's accuracy and integrity.
How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?
I am not a very advanced user of Wiki, I simply want to add the facts to the artist's page without any opinions or agenda. I'd like to make sure that the facts are not being maliciously removed and changed by other users without any references. I'd like for the community to clarify the rules for the other users, and help me bring this matter to the administrator's attention, so that they page stays accurate and up-to date. THANK YOU!
Lola Astanova discussion
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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
– General close. See comments for reasoning.
Dispute resolved successfully. See comments for reasoning.
– Closed as failed. See comments for reasoning.