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Talk:Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice

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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Pineapple4321 (talk | contribs) at 16:42, 31 December 2020 (→Plot summary). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Semi-protected edit request on 19 June 2020

The first line says "featuring the DC Comics characters Batman and Superman. ", normally movies are described as "based on the DC characters", cause the actual DC character is a separate entity. The actual character isn't featured in the movie, but rather, their own take, based on the character. Rtc7788 (talk) 03:17, 19 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

 Done --GoneIn60 (talk) 03:52, 19 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 21 June 2020

i want to edit Kadkemeh (talk) 18:46, 21 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: this is not the right page to request additional user rights. You may reopen this request with the specific changes to be made and someone will add them for you. DonQuixote (talk) 18:49, 21 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Improving Themes Section

In the themes section, the first source from Richard Brody takes the most space out of any of the sources on the themes section. His view is also not shared by anyone else I can find. I assume the editor put his analysis first because it is from the New Yorker. I think his quote and analysis should be reduced and moved to later in the section, because I can't find another source that agrees with it, and there are several more sources that have the opposite view of the political themes. If you have any recommendations on how to solve this issue, feel free to give them. I also think the themes section could be expanded much more. Pineapple4321 (talk) 21:41, 7 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I’d like to add a HUGE +1 to this. I glared at my phone when I opened the themes section only to be greeted by this bizarre lede to a section. Just because someone writes for the New Yorker does not mean that their weird, over-simplified analysis deserves to open the section and have three entire paragraphs dedicated to it. Especially when the analysis equates to, “colors mean republicans and democrats and if he’s saying democrats are bad then I think that is wrong and also bad”. I’ve never seen the film, but it’s really really off-putting to open the Themes section of a film and see this. Length doesn’t equate to notability or weight-of-importance in an article, but there’s three entire paragraphs dedicated to this one guy’s opinion, with everything from one source. It’s not NEARLY notable enough an opinion to warrant that much real estate in the section, and considering that it’s far from a popular theory, it needs to be moved.

As an aside, the formatting is a mess too. The writer’s analysis should NOT be mixed in with the lede to the section as, again, it implies that the opinion has significant weight to the rest of the section. Regardless of what happens here, that needs to be moved to its own individual paragraph. Thatdave (talk) 17:12, 18 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Plot summary

The first line of the plot summary isn't good. First off, the scene isn't really a flashback as it is the first scene of the film. Maybe you could argue since it has adult Bruce's narration, it is a flashback, but it is disputable. Also "memorable encounter with bats" isn't a good way of summarizing the scene. Plus, the fact that he sees his parents murdered in front of him, while it may be well known to a general audience, is still important information to include. Pineapple4321 (talk) 00:02, 11 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Be bold and make the changes you think would improve it. If it's controversial, then it'll get reverted and then we can discuss it.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 14:58, 11 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
First, I'm not sure I understand your reasoning that it's not "really a flashback" since it occurs at the beginning of the film. The LA Times review clearly refers to both this scene and the Superman-Zod battle as flashbacks. Second, the way you phrased the bat encounter, "where he is risen alongside bats", just sounds awkward. I did retain the part about seeing his parents getting murdered, as that can arguably be an important distinction to make. Open to suggestions if you think this needs further tweaking, but challenging the use of "flashback" seems unnecessary. --GoneIn60 (talk) 07:41, 15 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I think it's safe to say "In a dream, Bruce recalls..." - as the dialogue from him just as he flies up with the bats and the Superman/Zod fight takes over indicates that the child Bruce stuff is a dream. Hence why we get an actual "The day the world was introduced to the Superman" tag afterward.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 13:31, 15 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
OK, after watching the sequence back, even the current phrasing seems off: "In a flashback after witnessing his parents' murder, Bruce Wayne falls into a cave while running from the funeral, where he has a memorable encounter with a legion of bats." The problem is that the flashback is both remembering the night of his parents' murder while running from the funeral. In fact, that sequence switches constantly back and forth between the two events. I'm sure that can be phrased better. Maybe something like:
In a flashback to his childhood, Bruce Wayne runs from his parents' funeral while remembering the night they were murdered. He falls into a cave, where he has a memorable encounter with a legion of bats.
Additional thoughts? I think that fixes the opening part, but do we need to revisit "a memorable encounter with a legion of bats". I think this was trimmed down before to save space, and we've already added space by mentioning the "parents' murder". --GoneIn60 (talk) 19:28, 15 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I would say the scene isn't a flashback as the a flashback is described on wikipedia as "is an interjected scene that takes the narrative back in time from the current point in the story." As the scene is the opening scene of the film there is no prior established current point in the story, meaning the scene isn't taking the narrative back in time. If the scene happened in the middle of the film, I would consider it a flashback. On the Vertigo page, it does not call the opening scene a flashback. On the A Serious Man page, it calls the opening scene "a prologue". Both films then jump forward in time after their opening scenes. It could be argued the metropolis battle and indian ocean scenes are flash forwards to when the main story takes place.
As for the "memorable encounter with a legion of bats", we could just remove that part. Or we could try "rises alongside bats" or something else somebody else suggests. How does "He falls into a cave, where he rises alongside a legion of bats." sound? Pineapple4321 (talk) 00:52, 23 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"...there is no prior established current point in the story..."
"If the scene happened in the middle of the film, I would consider it a flashback."
Not sure why you are continuing this line of reasoning. It's not really about what you and I think, since reliable sources describing the film say otherwise, but let's step through this little exercise. Per Dictionary.com, a flashback is defined as:
A device in the narrative of a motion picture, novel, etc., by which an event or scene taking place before the present time in the narrative is inserted into the chronological structure of the work.
The "chronological structure" includes the very beginning. If we look at Wikipedia's definition (which is not a reliable source, by the way), there's nothing here that says the "current point of the story" has to come before the flashback. That's simply just your interpretation. Even if that doesn't sway you, it doesn't have to. Quite a few reliable sources have described it as a flashback. Here's a small sample:
We really need to move past this. The flashback is a non-issue.
As for the second sentence, maybe something like, "He falls into a cave, and a circling vortex of bats elevates him back to the surface." --GoneIn60 (talk) 08:47, 23 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Ok. Nobody else is agreeing with me about removing "in a flashback" so we will move on from that issue for now. I think it could become an issue if we were to nominate the page for good article status. As for the second sentence, it could be changed to "He falls in a cave, where he rises alongside a legion of bats" or "he falls in a cave, and a circling vortex of bats elevates him back to the surface." Does anybody else have any opinions on this? Pineapple4321 (talk) 16:42, 31 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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