Talk:Draught beer

Requested move

• Rationale: "Draught" used since earliest edits, predominantly used in current version of article. –Hajor 17:14, 29 May 2005 (UTC)

• Support —Michael Z. 2005-05-29 19:25 Z
• Support—Halibutt 21:37, May 29, 2005 (UTC)

This article has been renamed as the result of a move request. violet/riga (t) 23:16, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Reads like an advertisement?

Some parts of this article, especially the names of pubs and links to equipment suppliers reads like an ad. I suggest it should be fixed or a flag should be put up. --Jordo ex (talk) 15:26, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Comments

Could you please provide a little more info on the history of the article, as well as information on the uses of both phrases. Trying to read between the lines of the article history, this looks like a very old Wikipedia article that was converted from usemod to WikiMedia on 3 Feb 2002 (at that time, the article was very much a substub). It looks like it was moved from Draft beer to Draught beer on 7 Mar 2004. When did it get re-moved back to Draft Beer? BlankVerse ∅ 09:31, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

"80 times less soluble" is impossible. You should find another way to say what you mean. It is possible for co2 to be 80 times more soluble than nitrogen or for nitrogen to be a some percentage less soluble than co2

Also what is the benefit of nitrogen being less soluble than co2?

What about beers that are hand pumped? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.5.78.108 (talk) 17:59, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Draught beer /= Keg beer

The expression 'draught beer' is by no means exclusive to keg-dispense beer.

According to Michael Jackson :

Draught beer is, by definition, drawn from a cask or keg. [1]

According to the OED entry for "draught" :

c. Of liquor: On draught; drawn or ready to draw from the cask: as draught ale, beer, etc.

1835 DICKENS Sk. Boz (1837) 2nd Ser. 39 A pot of the real draught stout. 1893 Daily News 27 Feb. 4/7 Whisky will keep, and draft ale will not. 1971 Daily Tel. 13 May 13/6 Draught beer..is brewed from hops, malt and yeast and is served either by tap or by hand (suction) pump directly from the barrel.

According to the rec.food.drink.beer FAQ :

Subject: 1-11. What is "draught" (draft) beer?

Technically speaking, draught beer is beer served from the cask in which it has been conditioned. It has been applied, loosely, to any beer served from a large container. More recently, it has been used as a promotional term for canned or bottled beer to try to convince us that the beer inside tastes like it came from a cask. See also "Real Ale". [2]

Again, the colloquial meaning of draught beer may well imply to many "keg beer", but I think it would be more accurate if we moved the keg-specific parts of the draught beer article to keg beer (or something else less ambiguous). Certainly the colloquial meanings of the words should be covered in the article, but for the title paragraph we should stick to the definition of the words as I quoted Mr. Jackson above.

--Dforest 22:28, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

I've added a history of draught beer to indicate usage of the term over the years. I hope this makes it clearer why the term draught is generally not taken to include cask - though, as with most terms, there is some archaic or deviant usage of draught which does include cask. I hope the archaic usage is explained in the article by the history of the term. SilkTork 12:15, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

The history is a welcome addition. Please read the article from which I took the Jackson quote. [3] In it he clearly uses 'draught' to refer to all beer served on tap, and later discusses cask ale as a type of draught beer. He goes on to say: "Another advantage of draught is that, if it is cask-conditioned, it is not pasteurised. Nor is all keg draught treated in this way." Interesting how the latest OED citation of the word is 1971, the same year CAMRA was started. I still believe it can be used as Mr. Jackson used it in that article (published online in 1998). Considering his influence as a beer expert, it suggests to me that the more inclusive meaning is still current. I don't consider his usage archaic. I've seen beer menus that confirm this, listing 'draught beers', and the cask-conditioned ales are part of that list and labeled so. Certainly keg beers are more common than cask ales today, but that doesn't make the word exclusive to the former. 'Draught beer' still means 'beer drawn from a cask or keg'. If you want to talk about keg beer, you call it 'keg beer', or 'keg dispensed'.

According to the Leeds CAMRA glossary [4]:

Draught Beer A generic term for any beer that is stored in a large container and then transferred to smaller containers when served. It therefore covers both real ale (qv) and keg beer (qv).

What do other people think about this? --Dforest 01:02, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

I happened to read the article with a full version of the OED and an Anglo-Saxon dictionary to hand. The OED certainly does not link draught with german tragen. It most likelys come from OE dragan (to drag 'draw'). I could not see anyway to sensibly retain the link with german "carry" without misleading the reader - so I removed it.

88.109.61.156 30 June 2006

Well, SilkTork has reinstated it (including the misspelling of 'dragan'), but without justifying his/her action. This is clearly folk etymology. In reality, 'tragen' comes from 'dragan' – not the other way round. Of the 36 main noun and adjective senses listed in the New SOED, only two (e.g. "The depth of water needed to float a ship. E17.") have any connection with carrying rather than drawing. 'Draught' (from the same root as 'draw', 'drag' and ultimately even 'extract') is clearly about pulling. In the case of beer, this means suction – i.e. lowering the pressure at the outlet rather than raising it at the source. SilkTork seems to have joined the separate dots of 'pulling' the pint and drinking it down (as in these New SOED definitions), and lumped in the serving and carrying for good measure.

A n.

3 A single act of drinking or of inhaling tobacco smoke etc.; (long obs. exc. Sc.) breathing; an amount drunk or inhaled at one go. ME.

11 The action of drawing liquor from a cask etc.; the condition of being (ready to be) so drawn. LME

11 on draught (of beer etc.) ready to be drawn from a cask, not bottled or canned etc.

B attrib. or as adj.

2 Of beer etc.: on draught (see sense 11 above). M19.

As it stands, the 'History of draught' section is mostly palpable nonsense – 'en pression', for instance, is literally the opposite of 'draught'. For now, I'll just stick some citation requests in. I'll try to sort it out later, if no one else beats me to it.

If 'draught' really did relate to the serving and carrying of drinks, it would be pretty useless as a means of denoting a particular class of beer. Grant 23:15, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

The Japanese use the term "draft beer" (生ビール nama biiru) to mean beer that has not been pasturized. One of the most popular Japanese beers (even in the US) is Asahi Super Dry. As can be seen on the Asahi Super Dry label (both bottles and cans) it is described in English as "Asahi Draft Beer". See http://asoboo.com/images/full/33391.jpg near the top of the can. I believe this lack of pasturization means that the yeast is still alive. --Westwind273 (talk) 21:14, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Picture

Be nice if someone could upload a picture of a beer tap. SilkTork 12:47, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

The current picture is satisfactory, but I feel it might be better if it were to show both keg and cask type taps. M0ffx (talk) 09:33, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

Criticism

Why exactly do some older conservative beer drinkers have a problem with Draught beer. I looked at the link and it really didn't have anything about it. How exactly, does draught beer change the taste? If someone could add a criticism section to the article it would be great.

Germanic?

"draught" ist more likely to derive from Germanic than German roots, is it not? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.227.245.137 (talk) 15:01, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

But "tragen" is a German word. --88.73.110.134 (talk) 14:37, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Have you guys heard of this site? http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/draught

unpasteurized?

The information about unpasteurised beer in incorrect. The article states "Draught beer is usually unpasteurised in America.[citation needed] It is intended to be kept refrigerated between 2°C (35°F) and 4°C (40°F), and consumed quickly after being "tapped". Above 6°C (44°F), a beer may within two days turn sour and cloudy. Below 6°C (44°F), a keg of draft beer should last 20-30 days before it loses its fresh taste and aroma."

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Pronunciation

Could we get a pronunciation guide in here? Most of the people I know pronounce "draught" like it's spelled... 75.111.31.26 (talk) 20:42, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Picture caption

It says that they are keg (implying filtered/pasteurised/artificially carbonated) but I'm pretty sure they are just air pressure taps so are 'real ale'/cask.Haldraper (talk) 18:48, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

So what exactly is draft beer?

Having read the article and the discussion, I still don't know what draft beer is. It could come out of a cask, keg, can, or bottle, under pressure or not, pasteurized or not. It seems to me it's a meaningless term. Rees11 (talk) 23:09, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

True draft beer is unfiltered and unpasteurized. HalfShadow 23:27, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

If that's true and there are sources to support it, the article should say that. Right now the second sentence says it's filtered. Rees11 (talk) 23:54, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

Why is it "draught" and not "draft" here?

I was under the impression that Wiki defaults to the AmE for article titles when AmE and BrE clash. Garner's Modern American Usage says: "Draft is standard AmE in all meanings of the word ... American writers who use draught are likely to seem pretentious or pedantic." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.53.136.48 (talk) 04:54, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Your impression is wrong! Please read WP:ENGVAR - The English Wikipedia does not prefer any major national variety of the language [...] When an article has evolved sufficiently for it to be clear which variety it employs, the whole article should continue to conform to that variety, unless there are reasons for changing it based on strong national ties to the topic

I don't think there are any strong national ties to this article, and the earliest editors opted for BrE, therefore BrE it must remain. Arbitrary, I know, but it saves a hell of a lot of arguments. -- Fursday 23:21, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Since when was it established that AmE does not use the draught spelling? This is the primary spelling I have encountered in the United States, including nationwide beer ads. Next you will be telling me that "donut" is the official AmE spelling. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.53.194.2 (talk) 03:40, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

While I don't disagree with the conclusion re: this article, Draft is definitely the prevalent spelling in the U.S. I'm not sure what nationwide beer ads the above poster is referring to, but I have very seldom encountered the British spelling in the U.S., and the dictionary lists the spelling as "chiefly British." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.160.217.129 (talk) 21:52, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

I've added draft beer to the lede sentence as well. OjdvQ9fNJWle (talk) 06:50, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

I've reverted that change: "draught" is not the "UK spelling", it's also used in Australia (Carlton Draught), Ireland (Draught Guinness) and elsewhere, including in the US, albeit to a lesser extent. Haldraper (talk) 08:33, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Doesn't matter where it's spelled. People may think it's pronounced "drought" or "drawt". That's why I added it to prevent confusion. It's pronounced "draft", instead of "drot". OjdvQ9fNJWl (talk) 00:08, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

We need someone to put in an IPA phonology for it. Haldraper (talk) 19:55, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

It took a few seconds to look it up on wiktionary. Couldn't you have added it in instead of requesting for it to be added? OjdvQ9fNJWl (talk) 01:52, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

tbh, I didn't think to look there, thanks for adding it. We don't need the alternate US spelling in the lead though (it's already in the body). Haldraper (talk) 09:10, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

Actually, I just realized the pronunciation is different, so I've added draft back in. In the US, the draft in draft beer is pronounced like the draft in drafting. Besides, the word in the body isn't even bolded, so it doesn't matter whether it's included in the body or not. Remember, this article isn't necessarily in British English, nor is the topic British, so there is no reason not to include these. OjdvQ9fNJWl (talk) 02:04, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

The pronunciation isn't different anywhere I know! Ian Dalziel (talk) 14:12, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

That's because you're from Scotland. I don't think you'd notice a difference. OjdvQ9fNJWl (talk) 03:23, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

We are discussing variant spellings of the same word. In which region do they use both and pronounce them differently? Arcturus? Ian Dalziel (talk) 11:04, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure in the US, people mainly use the "draft" spelling variation and pronounce it with an "æ" sound. In Britain, I think most people use the "draught" spelling and pronounce it with an "ɑ" sound. Aren't these the differences? OjdvQ9fNJWl (talk) 06:28, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Not in my experience. The "draught" spelling (for beer) predominates in the UK, but the pronunciation varies regionally. As you have already pointed out, the phoneme difference doesn't even exist in Scotland. There are clearly differences in pronunciation, but they are not identified with the differences in spelling. My OR can lick your OR, so there! :-) Ian Dalziel (talk) 07:02, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

So people pronounce it "draut", drot", "dræft", "drɑft", etc? I think there are only 2 or 3 pronunciations, but 2 different spellings definitely exist even if there are no sources provided yet. OjdvQ9fNJWl (talk) 06:48, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

Ok, dictionary.com says the "draught" spelling is chiefly British, but both are pronounced the same way in American English. Here are the pronunciation examples from dictionary.com. OjdvQ9fNJWl (talk) 06:56, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

As Ian says, there's no difference in pronunciation between "draught" and "draft", at least not in Northern England where I live. I suppose people in Southern England would pronounce it with a long "a" but presumably they'd do that with "draft" too. Haldraper (talk) 17:08, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Since you are from England, you don't know the AE pronunciation do you? The AE pronunciation is with an "æ", not an "ɑ". Do you know what "ɑ" sounds like? It's the pronunciation for "father", not "craft". Most people (total population of English speakers) don't pronounce "draft" with the "father" a sound, but with the pronunciation for "craft".

I just added these pronunciations in to make sure this article doesn't suffer anymore systematic or purposely-added bias. You are making this biased by selectively choosing which pronunciation gets displayed when all pronunciations of main English dialects should be given equal weight. In fact, why doesn't this article describe draft beers and the possible differences from other countries, such as Chinese draft beer, or even Russian draft beer? Why is there only info on the European aspects? OjdvQ9fNJWl (talk) 04:38, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia is an encyclopaedia, not a dictionary. We don't need to get too hung up about how it's pronounced, especially in the lead. I think a Spelling section might be useful though. Haldraper (talk) 17:48, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

Yea, the pronunciations are not particularly needed, but there's no reason not to include the other spelling form. Because this article is titled in one form, the other one can be mentioned, but making a whole new section just for that is unnecessary. A short addition to the lead is enough, so please stop reverting. And it's about time we use actual data instead of going nowhere. Google hits show about 2,790,000 results for draft beer, so that variation is not insignificant. OjdvQ9fNJWl (talk) 07:11, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

I agree we should mention how it's spelt in North America as opposed to the UK, Ireland and Australia. A separate Spelling section allows more space to do that. I'm not sure what you mean about "using actual data instead of going nowhere". afaik, no one's proposed that the page be called "Draft beer" which is after all a relatively recent spelling variation. Haldraper (talk) 13:22, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

Ok, I've added an etymology and usage section and clarified the differences. Thanks for being reasonable. OjdvQ9fNJWl (talk) 04:49, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

I've added a dubious tag in the bit about pronunciation. There is no standard British English pronunciation of "draught": as I said above, a Northern English person like myself would pronounce it with a short "a" (as an American would pronounce "draft") while a Southern English person would use a long "a" in "draught" ("draaft"). Haldraper (talk) 08:13, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

And as OjdvQ9fNJWl himself said, the long "a" does not exist in Scots English, so it has to be the short "a" in Scotland (which was still part of the UK last time I checked). Ian Dalziel (talk) 11:21, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

Yea, there are regional "dialect" differences, so I've put usually to imply RP pronunciation. OjdvQ9fNJWl (talk) 07:23, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

I only checked on Wiktionary, and the two pronunciations there are the two currently in the article. I'm not very sure how to represent the regional variations, so I'm leaving them out for now. If you know the exact ones, feel free to add them in or clarify. OjdvQ9fNJWl (talk) 07:36, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

It's not about "regional dialect" - using different words for things - it's about pronunciation. And RP is not the usual pronunciation of the majority of British, Irish and Australian English speakers. I think "Commonweath countries" is misleading too: Ireland is nearly all English-speaking but not in the Commonwealth, the opposite of India, by far the most populous Commonwealth country.Haldraper (talk) 07:51, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

Well, actually regional dialect "is applied most often to regional speech patterns," which includes both vocabulary, definitions, and pronunciation, but that's not the point here anyways. OjdvQ9fNJWl (talk) 21:27, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

I think the way you presented it should work, so this section's issues have been addressed. OjdvQ9fNJWle (talk) 21:29, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

Fixed lead. "Draft beer" is simply the American English form of the word and removing clarity on that point because Haldraper wants to pretend Ireland and Australia don't use British spellings is WP:POINTy in the extreme. This is the standard way of dealing with UK/US spelling differences as with sport.
Per the discussion above, though, no, we shouldn't bother with the pronunciation here. It's not a confusing word for anyone who can read the page itself but throwing in IPA for all the dialects of English would make it confusing to the readers. It's a disservice and there's always Wiktionary for the curious. — LlywelynII 22:00, 20 January 2016 (UTC)

Wording

I'm going to bring it up again. The adverb "some" (and by extension, "usually") is subjective and cannot be reliably sourced. If you use "some" in front of the word, then that is original research because you cannot determine how many countries use a term (as if countries can use words in the first place), since any English-speaking person may use the term in any country. There is no way we can determine exactly how many use the terms, even if we go by population count. Therefore, the adverb "also" does a better job of being ambiguous about whether or not it's used commonly or uncommonly because it implies that the second word is also used, but we don't know how often. OjdvQ9fNJWl (talk) 20:17, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

measurements

Why are measurements first in arcane imperial. Which nobody uses. Surely litres first, fluid ounces of something else is necessary, as they are the standards the world uses. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Stpaul (talk • contribs) 15:35, 16 April 2017 (UTC)