Talk:Ikigai

Citations

I'm pretty sure "according to the japanese" isn't a real citation 70.174.248.4 (talk) 23:17, 21 October 2016 (UTC)

Graphic

What is the origin of the graphic, does it represent what is meant by Ikigai - or just one interpretation? Image itself is from a twitter post. Jonpatterns (talk) 12:35, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

This diagram is not correct. Ikigai often has nothing to do with being paid. I will update the article accordingly. Vagary (talk) 18:02, 12 March 2016 (UTC)

Uh, what?! This Venn diagram - or substantially equivalent to it - pops when you google images for ikigai; thousands of places. Please do not remove on personal beliefs it's "not about getting paid"! I find this diagram quite insightful in grokking what ikigai is about. If you have a better visual, put that instead but please do not just delete like so and deprave the article from a visual aid. EnTerr (talk) 06:30, 28 March 2016 (UTC)

Yeah, I was quite surprised to see the graphics were removed, supposedly by their original author, Andrés Zuzunaga. If the concept inside the Venn diagrams is not Ikigai, as the deleting user claims ... what is a good name for that intersection of what you love, what the world needs, what you can get paid for, and what you're good at? Ripper234 (talk) 16:17, 2 January 2017 (UTC)

You were absolutely correct to remove the graphic, which is a cultural misappropriation of the concept of ikigai by business writers. The Venn diagram is useful (in fact it appeared first in a book I published in 2008, called Finding the Sweet Spot, in slightly different form), but it is not in any way ikigai. Here is [1] a thorough discrediting of this graphic as having anything to do with ikigai.

If you want to promote the business concept of the Purpose Venn Diagram, please create a separate wikipedia page for this concept under that title, and remove this inappropriate graphic from the ikigai page. Thank you! — Dave Pollard 2001:569:7C03:BB00:C169:EC89:A24B:AC3 (talk) 02:32, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

The original 'Ikigai Graphic/Meme' was posted by Marc Winn on the blog The View Inside Me [2]. The story behind the creation of the unexpected worldwide meme can be found here [3]. It has become such phenomena by itself that it needs its own Wikipedia page! Marcwinn (talk) 18:34, 8 January 2017 (UTC)

It is an interesting story. Could start with a short section in this article mentioning this visual interpretation of ikigai (and any others?). In the meantime I put a caption under the image (please edit as appropriate). FWIW, I discussed this graphic with specific interest in how it may relate to Japanese concepts of work in a LinkedIn post: "Four categories of 'work' in Japanese & 'ikigai'." It was in the process of writing and editing that quick piece that I learned of User:Marcwinn's role in creating the popular ikigai graphic.--A12n (talk) 14:24, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

BTW, in case needed for citations, Marc is credited with the diagram in a recently-published book - I believe it was Héctor García's Ikigai: The Japanese secret to a long and happy life. It is true that the Venn adapted by Marc apparently originated with Andrés Zuzunaga's 2011 Propósito. Any section on graphic illustrations of ikigai and Marc's role would mention this history (see also Marc's own discussion in his blog posts).--A12n (talk) 14:49, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

Hello fellow Wikipedians! I would like to first say I love this Wikipedia topic and the writer did a good job writing this in a non biased way. I would like to see more information on the health benefits throughout life and some of the ways Japanese people use this way of thinking to blossom or succede in life. I wonder if there are any charts or data on this. Also, a few pictures of maybe a person or something that signifies this behavior would really add to the article. I love the section on the talk page that allows you to see the symbols and translations of certain sayings. Good job. Keep it up!Christian Barrow (talk) 02:12, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

I'd like to see more on the origin and history of the graphic, which is really interesting, and quite possibly notable, as Marcwinn pointed out above. More recently an article by Tim Parza on Medium and a post by Anaïs Bock give leads, but I don't see anything from ‘reliable’ sources other than that Toronto Star article Anyone else interested in joining a hunt? Simon Grant (talk) 18:18, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

Introduction of Historical influence on health.

I have included a reference to Traditional Japanese Medicine.TOM. Zongqi (talk) 04:58, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

Revise this text, as evidence does not support the claims.

We will need to revise the below information due to cited information research does not support its claims, National Geographic reporter Dan Buettner suggested ikigai may be one of the reasons for the longevity of the people of Okinawa.[9] According to Buettner, Okinawans have less desire to retire, as people continue to do their favourite job as long as they remain healthy. Moai, the close-knit friend group is considered an important reason for the people of Okinawa to live long. In the year 2016, a book based on the Japanese concept 'Ikigai: The Japanese Secret to a Long and Happy Life' was published by Penguin Books, it was authored by Hector Gracia and Albert Liebermann.[10] Zongqi (talk) 08:04, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

I have removed this information, due to cited evidence, that does not support claims if longevity. Zongqi (talk) 10:42, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

Critique

Inclusion of Critique section

Criticism

Because many records perished in WWII early studies claiming longevity in Okinawa can not be substantiated, with recent data reflecting that there was no exceptional extended life expectancy of Okinawan people compared within Japan or Globally in developed countries

Citation .https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19533867/ Zongqi (talk) 09:24, 28 October 2020 (UTC)

Gogyo

I'm Japanese. The word "Ikigai" refers to "source of value for one's life" and "feelings that one feels about having a source of value for living". The term "Ikigai" is a modern word that has come to attract attention since Japan's aging society and has nothing to do with ancient ideas such as Gogyo and Wuxing.--Green cigarette (talk) 18:53, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

Hello Green cigarette please stop Vandalism of the page. Your argument does not have much weight as you are saying that ikigai is a modern word to describe a outcome of a traditional health system that supported and treated the elderly in Japan. This is including traditional medicine, Kampo. Kampo medicine is built on Inyo Gogyo setsu, this is the foundation that has come from yin and yang Wuxing. Please stop being disruptive and provide evidence for your edditing. Thankyou. Zongqi (talk) 05:19, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

Hello Green cigarette (talk · contribs) please stop Vandalism of the page. Your argument does not have much weight as you are saying that ikigai is a modern word to describe a outcome of a traditional health system that supported and treated the elderly in Japan. This is including traditional medicine, Kampo. Kampo medicine is built on Inyo Gogyo setsu, this is the foundation that has come from yin and yang Wuxing. Please stop being disruptive and provide evidence for your edditing. Thankyou. Zongqi (talk) 05:19, 7 February 2021 (UTC) Zongqi (talk) 05:21, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

They have nothing to do with it. Your assertion that you should write on the "Ikigai" page about "Chinese traditional medicine" and "Inyo Gogyo setsu" is the same absurd assertion that you should write on the "courage" page about "rain gear" and "Gore-Tex. "Courage" may be necessary for dangerous mountaineering. And mountaineering requires "rain gear". And Gore-Tex's technology is used to manufacture rain gear. Replace "ikigai" with "courage", "mountaineering" with "health", "Chinese medicine" with "rain gear", and "Inyo Gogyo setsu" with "Goa-Tex" and you should see what I mean.Your argument is just an irrelevant association.--Green cigarette (talk) 06:27, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

I'm presenting the source. However, using the source on Chinese traditional medicine, you claim in your original research that the origin of Ikigai and Shikigami is a Chinese traditional medicine. You should stop vandalism by repeating false citations of sources.--Green cigarette (talk) 07:48, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

This is the usual nihonjinron nonsense of eliciting some standard word in the Japanese vocabulary and then investing it, usually on the authority of foreign discussions of a similar term in psychology, sociology etc., with a 'uniquely Japanese' spin echoing ancient traditions. I replaced the term 'concept' for 'word' and when reverted examined the mother article for this, on the Japanese wiki. The incipit there confirms my point independently.

生き甲斐（いきがい）とは、生きる甲斐、すなわち「生きることの喜び・張り合い」「生きる価値」を意味する日本語の語彙.Nishidani (talk) 12:11, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

This is the usual nihonjinron nonsense...

Okay. So if you have a reliable source for that -- preferably in English -- perhaps you could add it as a counterpoint to how it's being used in the English-speaking world. --Calton | Talk 16:34, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

I wrote the fucking standard textbook on the subject. You learn something with 50 years of reading that claptrap. It's a standard selling technique in Japan to emphasize the uniqueness of some humdrum human tic or piece of behaviour. I could even write an extended essay on reputably authored books which divagate on the uniqueness of Japanese shit, and the digestive organs, etc.etc. You name it, there is a genre, going by publishing periods, for acclaiming every word in the Japanese vocabulary has some unique wisdom or cultural implications. These are not 'concepts'. They are commonplace words which authors struggling to catch a readership's eye package as 'traditional Japanese concepts'. A concept requires some philosophical sophistication, and rarely do any of these works show any grasp of analytical approaches that would raise their topic to the level of a distinctive concept. Nishidani (talk) 17:32, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

Perhaps we could now write a wiki article on Japanese lips. After all, Suzuki Takao, for one, wrote that they are different from Western lips in 1974. Or indeed, on the Japanese nose? (I have two books somewhere on that) or on the Japanese brain, since according to Tsunoda Tadanobu that is uniquely different from foreign brains. Nishidani (talk) 17:53, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

'It's said that there are many people who strongly dislike entering rooms in Western hotels after Japanese (tourists) have stayed in them. It's not that we leave a dirty mess behind; it's just that, I believe, our excrement stinks. The excrement of Europeans doesn't smell all that much. And so, they're quite at ease with chamber pots in their rooms. The Japanese lack body smell, but their excrement is really on the nose, and penetrates the walls to linger there for two or three days.' Aida Yûji,Honne no jidai, Kôdansha, Tokyo 1981, pp. 72-3. The man who wrote that was professor of Renaissance History at Kyôdai.Nishidani (talk) 17:59, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

@Nishidani: - I get your point, but keep the language down. We all come to blows over stuff we care about at times, but it is not warranted, nor is the sarcasm. --Ineffablebookkeeper (talk) 18:33, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

@Nishidani: - You do understand that no one language Wikipedia has any precedence over another, right? I understand that it's important to go to the source of the term to understand it, but a), the Japanese article cannot be treated like a source on which editors pass judgements on another sister project - we cannot put 'see the Japanese article' in a reference tag, as such - and b), a "mother article" is not a concept on English Wikipedia. We have as much precedence over our sister projects as they do us; that is to say, none. We can expand articles from sister projects in different languages, that's true, but we don't use the editing standards of one to judge another. You've put that it "confirms [your] point independently", but as we, again, can't reference one Wikipedia with another, that isn't true.

As for the term - on looking at the sources, I'd say 'concept' fits the references we have better, which seem to be WP:VERIFIABLE enough to support this. A word is a word, with maybe a few meanings, but all pretty singular. A concept is a collection of meanings that align with one another to form a sense of understanding beyond that. My vote is concept stays; it's the better language choice and it describes better what the verifiable sources we have describe - which, as Wikipedians, is what we write from. It doesn't, unfortunately, matter how nonsensical you do or do not consider this to be; we have sources, they are verifiable, the understanding stays.--Ineffablebookkeeper (talk) 16:41, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

Japanese (editors) generally understand their culture better than outsiders. We do well to respect their judgment.Nishidani (talk) 17:36, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

I think concept would be a better fit as it also evokes a sense of process.  Green light3 (talk) 04:13, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

But (the word) ikigai does not "evoke a sense of process", since it is simply a noun. What might "evoke a sense of [something]" would be 生き甲斐がある (ikigai-ga aru), which means not a "process" but a "state", that of having a sense of purpose in life, or having something making life worth living. Oh, I see I just expressed that rather easily in English, perhaps because I am a native speaker, unlike the Japanese authors who boldy claim that "there is no word for ikigai in English". I presume you don't speak Japanese either. Imaginatorium (talk) 04:25, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

Probable sock puppet activity

This article has been the target of edit warring and sock puppet activity since about October of 2020. The eventual outcome of that activity was the blocking of user Zongqi (talk · contribs) and his various sock-puppets (see Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Zongqi/Archive for details). One of Zongqi's characteristic changes to this page is the persistent insertion of a "Criticism" section. The recent edit [4] by user Windvacktime (talk · contribs) suggests that he is at it again.—Myasuda (talk) 14:10, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

Spam removal

The subject of this article is the Japanese concept of ikigai ("... referring to something that gives a person a sense of purpose, a reason for living"). On 1 Sept 2021, someone (who appropriately identified themselves as a paid contributor on their user page) added information about a financial app. There are several issues:

• The edit summary claims (falsely) that this is an example "of how the concept of ikigai has been popularised", whereas neither the added text nor the sources cited illustrate how the financial app has notably (or even non-notably) contributed to the popularization of the Japanese concept (see WP:SUMMARYNO, "Avoid misleading summaries").
• The text was added in the section "Early popularisation". Whatever effect the financial app has had in relation to the Japanese concept (which appears to be none, as already noted), that effect certainly was not "early", as all cited sources are from 2021.
• The text focuses heavily on describing the app, its purpose and background, etc., none of which has relevance to the Japanese concept.
• The edit was marked as a minor edit. That is inappropriate when adding new material.

Claiming that the financial app has any relevance to the Japanese concept is like claiming that The Beatles, Volkswagen, or Beetlejuice have some relevance to the insect. I have removed the material as apparent WP:SPAM. If any issue, please discuss here first to seek consensus before re-adding any such material, thanks. -- HLachman (talk) 05:12, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Dilloncav.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 00:16, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Ikigai is not a concept or philosophy in Japan.

I am Japanese. The idea of ikigai as a concept or philosophy is a western invention driven by Orientalism. The suggestions that Wuxing/Gogyo have anything to do with it higher in this talk page are absurd. Here is a Japanese discussion on the topic, discussing how people in the west constantly attribute nonsense they made up to mundane Japanese words and claim it's some ancient traditional Japanese thing when it is not the case: https://twitter.com/wanwanO/status/1566384622438858752

I have previously tried to edit articles on Japanese topics only to be be harassed and attacked for my efforts, so I will not even attempt to try here. I am only commenting on the talk page because I want people to know how nonsensical this is from a Japanese perspective. 2404:2D00:5000:701:686F:8E09:6F1A:474D (talk) 16:16, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

File:Diagramo de Ikigajo -en.svg

Hi Imaginatorium,
Just for general interest, why have you removed this diagram and adjacent content from the page?
I'm not an expert in the field and don't challenge this, but I did here simultaneous correction in two Wikipedias and it is interesting to me to hear detailed explanation. — Lady3mlnm (talk) 18:58, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

Because it is original research, and not the subject of reliable sources (which Wikipedia requires). If a reliable source can be identified which confirms that Ikigai does indeed sit at the nexus of all of those Western concepts, that can be discussed on this talk page. MichaelMaggs (talk) 20:35, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

I used the "OR" flag in my edit summary, because it is convenient, and you need an expensive Wlawyer to argue against it. But it is not entirely honest: a more honest version would be "rm made-up nonsense". But the whole article is made-up nonsense -- see the section immediately above this one. The problem is that WP uses a concept called (W)verification; whereas the normal "verification" means "showing to be true", the W-version only means "showing to be written somewhere". Imaginatorium (talk) 16:52, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

Correction

To be corrected and improved the first reference Graph8389 (talk) 12:26, 26 March 2024 (UTC)