Talk:Refugees of the Greek Civil War

Untitled

It is with dismay that I realize that the original user who started this page (Damac) referenced a Greek communist Marxist-Leninist chat forum webpage (Politikokafeneio) to claim that former Queen Frederika's Child Cities were places of exploitation and brutality. The reference is obviously biased and not based on the reality. It does not belong on Wikipedia or in any place where the propagation of true and unbiased information is required. It's a shame that it was placed here. I am glad it was removed in the most recent revision of the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gem2 (talk • contribs) 21:31, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

~~Trying to neutralize this article, I removed all the right-winged unreferenced POV and kept only the references ( valid or not). Additionally I added all the known to me references from people that were part of these children groups ( those taken in Socialist States and those taken in Paidoupolis) since 1948. The article is covering more bases and is not POV as it was before.

~~ More references from both sides can help rectifying it and present the real picture to the reader.

Dkace (talk) 14:22, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Why the stubbing-back

Okay, for those who didn't get the motivation behind the cutting back of the article yesterday. We have a mandate from AfD that this article should be merged with Exodus of Ethnic Macedonians from Greece. "Merging" means, the article should be rewritten so as to contain the best elements of both articles, but unified in a single structure. But when people started editing yesterday, it seemed they were just doing complete copy-and-paste jobs, using the full text of either one of the old articles and completely ignoring the other. That's why I proposed we should start from scratch. I wrote the short stub just as a start, then I'd suggest you develop a structural plan of how the new article could grow (perhaps just a skeleton of section titles), and then fill that out with material that you might actually copy from the old versions. Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:56, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Now I get it. And I completely disagree!!!

The relocation of the ethnic Slavo-Macedonians although a part of the political refugees of the Greek Civil War can not be merged into this article but just be linked to it - as it was previously.

The fact is - if one follows the omitted links from the previous article- that the defeat of DSE in Greece is the main historical fact that creates this problem. Linked to this problem is the decision of the Provisional Government in 1948 to evacuate the children from the territories under its control and relocate them in the Socialist States. linked to this is the Yugoslavian politics for creating a state named YR of Macedonia.

The main body of DSE army - according to official documents derived by KKE files as well as USSR history- was located in Taskend of Uzbekistan. This was a fighting group of nearly 12.000 people, men and women. The total of the children ( numbers vary on this fact) were located in European Socialist States up to 1953-1954. By that time, KKE leadership accepted the fact that war is over and that there is no chance of an new armed conflict. By that time, the families were reunited and DSE fighters were now turned into Greek Political Refugees hosted in USSR, DDR, PRP, PRH, PRT, PRB, PRA, PRR and Yugoslavia.

Under those facts, my opinion is to leave the article in the previous structure and then try to edit taking into consideration that the problem is rooted to the Greek Civil War - not other side-effects. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dkace (talk • contribs) 15:26, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Exodus of Ethnic Macedonians in Greece

Good idea, fut perf for adding the below link.PMK1 (talk) 04:51, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Sorry but I've removed the copy, it just bloats this talk page too much. This is easier: here's a direct link to the old version of the article. Exodus of Ethnic Macedonians

Okay like that? Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:01, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Sorry people, but this is mostly propaganda! And it can be like this in this page :

Exodus of Ethnic Macedonians

but it can not be a merged article with the Political Refugees of the Greek Civil War. The reason is that in the above mentioned article, it is taken for a fact that DSE was mainly an "ethnic Macedonian" army with communist ideas! In none of DSE archives or KKE's files this fact exists! And to extend this more there are numerous articles and decisions of both formations against the "Tito's spy's in the ranks of DSE". KKE and the provisional government accepted the right to Slavo-macedonians of self-determination within a common Socialist Balkan State, but the main characterization was "Slavs" not "Macedonians". This position was clarified further during the Cold war Era.

We can't use wikipedia for chip ethnic propaganda - and worst: characterize the GREEK CIVIL WAR as a war against ethnic minorities! This is a theory( near to a dogma), not a historical fact!!!

So, I still believe that the article has to be neutral both political and "ethnological". I suggest as base of the article my last revert on 11:58, 10 November 2008 Dkace (Talk | contribs) (6,814 bytes) (Undid revision 250642872 byFuture Perfect at Sunrise : A fully documented article is much better than any other POV editions. Please change it accordingly not by deleting the whole work!!!) (undo). It is from more than one-side sources ( more can be added) and is from sources that EVERYBODY can reach and read, especially in the english version of wiki.

I am looking forward of your responces Dkace (talk) 07:45, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Dkace i have left your information for now at the bottom of the new page, but i will incorporate it into the texts. Also using in-text references is also handy. Changing the format into an article format with multiple sections. Will add more information when i get the time. Add your comments here people, thanks. PMK1 (talk) 08:40, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

PMK1, I show the article and I tend to agree with the propesed structure. I disagree on unreferenced numbers and on the effort this article to play the role of ethnic propaganda. My paragraphs were put there to cause a fresh start, nothing more. I hope everybode enters discussion before making major changes.Dkace (talk) 09:31, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

That is a good attitute to have on the article. I will add as many non-Balkan sources as i can find. Most of my sources are western or not from either macedonia-greece as to push a specific POV. if you wish you may want to copy edit or help out with the process of rewriting the article. I will incorporate your text at the bottom of the page back into the article, in the appropriate chapter. PMK1 (talk) 21:11, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

I am running some minor changes on the names and the descriptions towards KKE, DSE, and the Provisional Government. I have to state that in order the article to be more neutral we have to accept as a fact thet CIVIL WAR means conflict between political, ethnical or religious groups within the same State. So, referring to the "controlled areas by the Communists" is lacking balance, as Provisional Government was the government of these areas - Communist members in the majority- but still a rival Government of that of Athens.

Secondly, I am against this "overwelmed" presentation of the "Ethnick" Macedonians and the descreptions that follow. I am working on a better way to present the issue - sources and description- . The sources and the "narration" in the article is more than POV and can cause Minority issues on a purely Political Subject. Numbers and estimations that are not backed up by balanced sources as well as a continues effort to arise a minority issue at a political point in history that neither side of the Civil War has accepted as such, I believe is far from the aims of articles like this.

I suggest this whole "Exodus" agenda, to be moved to a different article and only references to that article remain to this one. The problem of the political refugees of the Greek Civil is a political problem of the Cold War and not a minority issue of the Balcan mapping.

I would appreciate your reaction on the above before we continue with any other major change on the article

Dkace (talk) 08:27, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

It is good and encouraging to see another user with another POV, who is willing to improve the article. In regards to your first point, i have no objections if you believe that your edits will make the article more readable and understandable. In regards to your second point i do not think it is overwhelmingly focussed on Ethnic Macedonians when you include factors such as much of the war bieng fought in predominantly Slav Macedonian areas, roughly 60% of the DSE forces being Ethnically Macedonian and other factors like that. Also to great significance to these people are the freedoms and recognition they recieved in during the days of the provisional communist government. I am sure you are aware of some of these no doubt. In regards to your third point, the word exodus does not have connotations of ethnic cleansing or similar terms it simply means a mass movement of people. The large amounts of Macedonians who left greece during the civil war period (46-49) is a significant event in the development of our nation. This has basically defined macedonian-greek relations for the past 50 years. The greek civil war is important to greeks, it is also important to Macedonians especially Aegean Macedonians. I would appreciate your comments, so that i can continue to add information to the article. PMK1 (talk) 05:54, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

PMK1, I am glad we are on common ground regarding the build up of the page. As I have limited time this week, I would appreciate a small pause. I will revert with my comments soon enough. Thanks, Dkace (talk) 09:33, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

PMK1, could you please stop trying to turn this article into a clone of your ethnic exodus nonsense? That's not what "merge" means. The issue of the political refugees is much bigger than the question of what happened to your preferred group, and yet you seem to want to make it entirely about them. It isn't. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· 06:15, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Pay attention Kekrops, the article has been changed to encompass all political refugees from the Greek Civil War. Stop your inappropriate and deconstructive reverts, user Dkace has said he is wishing to help with the article, join him and actually help. It is not my problem if you cannot face the truths, why dont you actually contribute here and stop your revertions. PMK1 (talk) 09:41, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

I notice he has expressed concerns that your version is overwhelmingly skewed towards a single group. I share those concerns. I don't see where you see the "common ground" vis-à-vis the treatment of your "deca begalci". Mentioning them is one thing; making the article overwhelmingly about them is entirely another. I suggest you discuss your additions at length here, so as to ensure the article doesn't give WP:UNDUE weight to your POV. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· 09:48, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

He has actually agreed to help in creating the article, i waited for him as per his request. The result of the vote was Merge this means using a combination of both articles, and merging the voted article into the other. What is the big problem, the article talks about greeks and macedonians. Greek terms, macedonian terms and english terms are used side by side. I have also planned to write about Greeks in the post GCW East Europe. What is wrond with my treatment of the Deca Begalci, they are by far the most notable refugees are they not? I have stated my additions, it is about time you told me what is wrong with them, and you discuss them. PMK1 (talk) 10:02, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

They are by far the most notable refugees? Says who? Dkace hasn't agreed to making the article mostly about your group; if anything, he has expressed quite the opposite. A combination of both articles doesn't mean you can simply cut & paste your bad old version almost in its entirety. My objection, like that of Dkace, is the undue weight given to a single subgroup within the overall group of civil war refugees. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· 10:09, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

So write some more about the Greeks. BalkanFever 10:12, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

What you are disagreeing that 30,000 children, were not important enough to have a large section written about them? How many groups were there, of the total refugees how much does 30,000 children represent? I am interested in your opinion. You are well known for reverting, but i would be interested in your future additions towards the article. I have shown courtesy to user:Dkace by not editing at his request, may i sugesst that you use good faith in regards to this. PMK1 (talk) 10:16, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

What do you mean you're not editing at his request? Your edit-warring, which is worse. How about we keep this as a stub until we can iron out a version that everyone is happy with? As things stand now, the article is heavily weighted towards your POV, which was the reason an AfD was called in the first place. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· 10:18, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

I am not editing, nor did he request you to revert to an uninformative stub, my edits were trigerred by your unuseful "help". You are free to write more about what you consider as an undue balance. You may consider the article as having too much info on the macedonians, but when 60% of the DSE force were Slavic Macedonians, does it really seem that undue? PMK1 (talk) 10:24, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

60% is the maximum and most ambitious estimate, and refers to the closing stages of the war, not its duration. The are other, more modest (and credible) estimates. According to Clogg (2002): "By 1949 as much as 40 per cent of the rank and file of the Democratic Army was composed of Slav Macedonians..." Furthermore, does it include the Slavophone Greeks? And why does it seem that much more than 60% of an article about the Greek Civil War is about anyone but the Greeks? ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· 10:53, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

That is irrelevant. 40% to 60% makes up a huge proportion of fighters in a civil war of an ethnically pure country. Well even it out, for every 3 words relating about macedonians we can have 3 words for every Greek. There is no need for extreme measures to be taken as you did. Re-read the article, please, then tell me how much is actually relating to Macedonians and not greeks? PMK1 (talk) 11:05, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Far more than is due. Almost every single paragraph not only mentions your lot, but is mostly devoted to them. A far better strategy would be to follow FP's suggestion to strip this back to a stub and iron out a consensus version from scratch. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· 11:12, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

I 'agree to start this from scratch again. And what does "even it out" mean? This is about the Greek Civil War. If it was to be even, the "exodus" article wouldn't have been deleted in the first place.--Michael X the White (talk) 13:20, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Whose "even" yours or mine? Kekrops, if far more is due, then add some information. No one is stopping you. Follow FP's strategy when you actually begin to contribute here. PMK1 (talk) 21:22, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Number of political refuges that left Greece during and after the civil war

As usual in articles as this one a lot of extreme sources are used to define numbers. It is important to use only the most reliable sources. After some research I found 2 sources which are probably the best to help us give some real numbers about the subject.

First the official numbers that are given by the Communist party of Greece (KKE).
Source : 3rd KKE congress 10-14/10/1950: Situation and problems of the political refuges in People’s Republics pages 263 - 311 (3η Συνδιάσκεψη του Κόμματος (10 - 14/10/1950. Βλέπε: "III Συνδιάσκεψη του ΚΚΕ, εισηγήσεις, λόγοι, αποφάσεις - Μόνο για εσωκομματική χρήση - Εισήγηση Β. Μπαρτζιώτα: Η κατάσταση και τα προβλήματα των πολιτικών προσφύγων στις Λαϊκές Δημοκρατίες", σελ. 263 – 311”) Quote: “Total number of political refuges : 55,881 (23,028 men, 14,956 women and 17,596 children, 368 unknown or not accounted)”
The KKE source gives no information about the Slavophones or the Slav-Macedonians and it’s about the Greeks only.

For the Slav-Macedonians we have a very important source.
A source from Socialist Yugoslavia.
Source : report of General consultant of Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia addressed to foreign ministry of Greece Doc 47 15-7-1951 SMIR, ΡΑ, Grcka, 1951, f-30, d-21,410429, (έκθεση του γενικού προξενείου της Γιουγκοσλαβίας στη Θεσσαλονίκη SMIR, ΡΑ, Grcka, 1951, f-30, d-21,410429, Γενικό Προξενείο της Ομόσπονδης Λαϊκής Δημοκρατίας της Γιουγκοσλαβίας προς Υπουργείο Εξωτερικών, Αρ. Εγγρ. 47, Θεσσαλονίκη 15.7.1951. (translated and published by Spiros Sfetas . ΛΓ΄, Θεσσαλονίκη 2001-2002 by the Macedonian Studies )
Quote: “According to the report of General consultant of Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia the total number of Slavophones refuges (including few Greeks) who came from Greece between the years 1941 – 1951 is 28,595.
From 1941 till 1944 500 found refuge in Yugoslav Macedonia, in 1944 4,000 people, in 1945 5,000 , in 1946 8,000, in 1947 6,000, in 1948 3,000, in 1949 2,000, in 1950 80, and in 1951 15 people. About 4,000 left Yugoslavia and moved to other Socialist countries (and very few went also to western countries')".
So in 1951 at Yugoslavia were 24,595 refuges from Greek Macedonia. 19,000 lived in Yugoslav Macedonia, 4,000 in Serbia (mainly in Gakovo-Krusevlje) and 1595 in other Yugoslav republics.”

From the above sources we can see that the only real numbers are Greek refuges 55,881 and Slav-Macedonians 28,595. All the other sources (especial the extreme Slavic historiography from partisan sites) with the ridicules numbers should not be included in this article.
Seleukosa (talk) 20:28, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Just as i have added, you also have a range of sources and a rang of numbers for the amount of refugees. Your sources are not any more right or wrong then a whole bunch of others from the time, eg. The Red Cross, PRM, the Greek National Army etc. PMK1 (talk) 21:20, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

By the way can please the editors who have added various sources be so kind to provide pages and paragraphs? Were the term “Exodus (sic!) of Ethnic Macedonians from Greece (Macedonian: Егзодус на етничките Македонци од Грција, Egzodus na etničkite Makedonci od Grcija).” appears in the sources ^ Keith, Brown (2003). The Past in Question: Modern Macedonia and the Uncertainties of Nation. Princeton University Press, 271. ISBN 0691099952.
Danforth, Loring M. (1997). The Macedonian Conflict. Princeton University Press, 54. ISBN 0691043566.
Macridge, Peter A.; Eleni Yannakakis (1997). Ourselves and Others: The Development of a Greek Macedonian Cultural Identity Since 1912. Berg Publishers, 148. ISBN 1859731384.
Of course sources such as www.makedonskosonce.com or balkaninsigh newspaper will be removed shortly! Also I would like to see the paragraph and page from the book of Ζαούσης Αλέξανδρος. Η Τραγική αναμέτρηση, 1945-1949 – Ο μύθος και η αλήθεια (ISBN 9607213432). Wich says : “has been estimated that out of DSE's 20,000 fighters, 14,000 were Slavic Macedonians from Greek Macedonia.” I will remove it unless someone can provide the original passage.
I spotted the above after a brief look at the article! Obviously we have a serious source problem!! Almost none of them can be verified!! Seleukosa (talk) 20:51, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

The Keith Brown source is refering to the Deca Begalci. google it.

Lorin Danforth; page 106. "the first international reunion of the refugee children from aegean Macedonian was held in skopje in the summer of 1988, 40 years after the tragic exodus of aegean macedonians from their homeland in northern greece.

Macridge, Peter A, page 49, "Slav Macedonian figures can be meaningfully discussed until the Second World War ie. before their great exodus from traditional slav speaking enclaves ..."

page 148, "The last major movement of populations, ... , was the exodus of Slav Macedonian communist supporters after their defeat in the Greek Civil War.

The Balkan insight source. PMK1 (talk) 21:20, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Do you have any reputable sources that support your hypothesis that this was primarily an ethnic rather than Greek affair? As for your claim of neutrality, please. Your version presents the "Deca Begalci" as indisputable fact, while the Παιδομάζωμα is nothing more than a footnote documenting the "official Greek position". ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· 06:21, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

This conversation is endless. I suggest we keep the references of official authorities such as DSE archives, KKE official Documents, Greek and Yugoslavian official documents and comment the rest for the reader to be able to find them.

We have to stress out that there was a huge problem with the Savophone minority in 1948 as it was used by the Yugoslavian government to put on pressure to DSE ans achieve recognition by the British. This is a major historical turn on the issue of the civil war as Tito closed the borders and launched attacs against DSE. Therefore, Slavophones were now used as an ethnic group to put pressure on both sides.

I did not only expressed my concerns on presenting the article as an "Exhodous" of the "Agean Macedonians". I disagreed with this, but I need some time to build up something more aligned with wikipedia's policy. So, it is best if PMK1 not trying to stress out his ethnic-political agenda but to HELP building the article on better basis.

Referring different sources with opposite opinions is one thing. Referring sources with major differences on numbers this is a problem. I think we have to talk thoroughly and come up with a plan on this action. We can define what is acceptable on this article.

I still lack of time to assist thoroughly with the article - I will do so in the near future. If we all agree, we can post a paragraph just describing what the term Political Refugees of the Greek Civil War means - neutral and small- and continue discussing in here posting test articles.

Dkace (talk) 08:05, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Well everyone seems to accept that idea except PMK1, I'm afraid. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· 08:29, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

I am genuinely trying to help with the construction of this, if you havent guessed by now. I am in favour of the mention of the three major terms relating to this article in the second paragraph of the intro, "deca begalci", "egzodus ..." and "paidomazoma". They all must be mentioned in the article, as they all relate to it. I think that "slavophone minority" should be kept at a minimum, because these grecoman slavs were neccesarily fighters for either the national army or the DSE. In fact the slavs with a slavic identity (slav Macedonians), were majority of the slavs in the DSE, not the grecomans. @ kekrops, yes, there are evidences that the evacuations and refugees had different impacts on greeks and macedonians, even if they were both communists or pro-communists. Effects include, higher levels of emigration/de-population in the slav macedonian areas, more likely to send their children into the eastern bloc, higher percentage of population was fighting in the civil war and for the DSE. i hope all users are willing to cooperate? PMK1 (talk) 08:38, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

We all seem to agree that a neutral stub should take the place of the current version until a consensus version is fleshed out here. Except you. Do you have source to support you claim that the majority of Slavophones in the DSE professed a non-Greek identity? And please, don't use the pejorative term "grecomans"; it is extremely offensive to the Slavophone Macedonian Greeks. They should not be vilified for choosing not to be non-Greek ethnic "Macedonians". ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· 08:45, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

I am not using Grecoman in a perjatorive manner, i am not vilifying them, let them identify which ever way they want to. My point was that i have established a structure to this page, which i plan on finishing, i am sure that the structure which i have added is not to "POV". Anyway you have editing much of what you call POV. I will search for an english language source, user:Revizionist found a source and used it in the NOF article. 85% identified as slav macedonians, not as greeks. Do you agree to my suggestion of a terminology subsection. Also the term deca begalci is a widely used term in English terminology, and is more common then pedomazoma, (google it). Any objections on your behalf? PMK1 (talk) 08:55, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't think a terminology subsection is necessary. And it doesn't matter if you think you're not using "Grecoman" in a pejorative manner; it is pejorative whether you think so or not. The term Skopjan, which is not intended to be pejorative, is avoided for similar reasons. Finally, I think we definitely need to untie the knot of Slavophones versus Slav Macedonians versus ethnic "Macedonians". If "85% identified as slav macedonians" as you say, that is how they should be cited. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· 09:08, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Agreed, when cited as Slav Macedonians cite them as that, when cited as just Macedonians cite them as that. I dont really care as to whether Aegean Macedonian, Slav Macedonian, Macedonian or Ethnic Maceodnian is used as long as the meaning is meant in regards to these or these people not these unless the source says that. If you dont think a terminology is not required, then what is? PMK1 (talk) 09:12, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Nothing; the existing mentions of Децата Бегалци and the Παιδομάζωμα should more than suffice. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· 09:16, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Says who? This is a complicated issue remember. PMK1 (talk) 09:22, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

What more can you say about them that hasn't already been said? ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· 09:32, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

That deca begalci is a widely used term in english and is often used instead of just "refugee children". Whereas pedomazoma implies that the children were kidnapped, unless the author believes that?. PMK1 (talk) 09:38, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

How can deca begalci possibly be a "widely used" term in English? What a bizarre claim. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· 10:05, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

I know :)PMK1 (talk) 11:31, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Seriously, on what grounds do you make such an extraordinary claim? "Googling it" is hardly sufficient, as most entries are either in another language or taken from ethnic "Macedonian" websites of the diaspora, which are known for anything but their neutrality on these issues. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· 14:49, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Guys look,

Political refugees of the Greek Civil war were not focused only in Slav-Macedonians. We have to start the article from the bases of DSE accounts and Athens government and move forward! I.E. it is true that today, the political refugees that were of Slav origin are persona non granda from Greek government and they are the only refugee group from this era that the Greek Nationality is denied.

But this is a side effect of the subject, that can only be mentioned at some point, not become the main subject of the article!

I think we first have to focus on describing the subject of the article: "Political Refugees of the Greek Civil War". a) Why, b)who, c)what followed, d) where were located, e)Children evacuation, f)After Civil War location of refugees as sources indicate. g)Today's status.

Is this structure accepted?

@PMK1 : Please avoid polarizing the article with ethnic stubs. This is not the issue here.Dkace (talk) 10:01, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

(I completely agree with Dkace. Feel free to proceed)
I am adding the Yugoslavian official number. Don’t forget that this number was given by Yugoslavia to Greece as an Official census of the Slav-Macedonians of Greece who fled to Yugoslav Macedonia. KKE numbers are not “estimated” but a complete account of the political refuges.
Further more I will removing the incredible numbers that appear at the opening paragraphs. How is it possible to have 28 to 32 thousand kids to evacuate when Yugoslavia gives a number of 28 thousands for all the refuges!! (And how the number of 213 thousand is reached???) Again the problem is sources! The ethnic Macedonian sources is a Helsinki, Human Rights Watch document from US which probably recycle a number from some extreme source. We can not have such a source which completely contradicts reality and the other official sources.
Also remember how sources are handled in Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources
“Articles should rely on reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. Reliable sources are necessary both to substantiate material within articles and to give credit to authors and publishers in order to avoid plagiarism and copyright violations. Sources should directly support the information as it is presented in an article and should be appropriate to the claims made: exceptional claims require high-quality sources.”
And
“Information in an article must be verifiable in the references cited. Article statements generally should not rely on unclear or inconsistent passages nor on passing comments. Passages open to interpretation should be precisely cited or avoided. A summary of extensive discussion should reflect the conclusions of the source's author(s). Drawing conclusions not evident in the reference is original research regardless of the type of source. It is important that references be cited in context and on topic.”

Since when Balkan insight site is considered a valid source??
Read how this is handled by Wikipedia
“ News reporting is distinct from opinion pieces. Opinion pieces are only reliable for statements as to the opinion of their authors, not for statements of fact, and should be attributed in-text. In articles about living persons, only material from high-quality news organizations should be used. While the reporting of rumors has a news value, Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and should only include information verified by reliable sources. Wikipedia is not the place for passing along gossip and rumors.
For information about academic topics, such as physics or ancient history, scholarly sources are preferred over news stories. Newspapers tend to misrepresent results, leaving out crucial details and reporting discoveries out of context. For example, news reports often fail to adequately report methodology, errors, risks, and costs associated with a new scientific result or medical treatment. Some news organizations have used Wikipedia articles as the sole source for their work. To avoid this indirect self-referencing, editors should ensure that material from news organizations is not the only existing source outside of Wikipedia. Generally, sources that predate the material's inclusion in Wikipedia are preferable.”
Can you see now how problematic is the use of such sources?
Of course I am removing any completely unreliable source.
Also all sources need to be checked and verified!
Seleukosa (talk) 10:24, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. Selekuosa, stop pushing the view of slavophones and greek refugees. I am pretty sure that the Yugoslavs at the time would not publish figures on "grkomani" and "grci", but rather on "makedonci" and "grci". Your citations make no sense. There are many sources claiming 28,000 to 32,000 thousands children were evacuated. ethnicity is irrelevant for that section. We are talking about the numbers of children, not their ethnicity. Yes, i do not believe that there were 213,000 refugees from Greece, that is why the sentence clearly reads: "whereas ethnic Macedonian sources put the number of ethnic Macedonian refugees alone at 213,000", showing the view of the "ethnic macedonians". Just because it is their veiw doesnt make it right, but wikipedia is just really a collection of veiws. There is nothing wrong when a veiw which predominates in some fields is presented as a view of that field, that is a POV. Wikipedia is full of POV's. PMK1 (talk) 11:28, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Indeed. The passage is not representing the view as fact, but representing the fact that the view is held. BalkanFever 11:35, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Seleukosa on the sources issue. We are not inenting the wheel here. Fortunately others did it before and we have to expand the inovasion! I suggest remove the whole article NOW and replace with a minor introduction followed by titles of paragraphs.When we agree on the structure of the paragraphs, then we can go into each one of them and finalize them. We will save a lot of time and effort not to mention the endless discussions in here. We need a plan I think...Dkace (talk) 11:52, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

What is actually wrong with the structure? It is very similar to your proposed one. ""Political Refugees of the Greek Civil War". a) Why (origins, Greek civil War), b)who, c)what followed (Evacuations following the Communist defeat, Exile from Greece, Exodus of Ethnic Macedonians from Greece), d) where were located, e)Children evacuation (Refugee Children), f)After Civil War location of refugees as sources indicate (Establishment of the Refugees overseas). g)Today's status (Establishment of the Refugees overseas, Aftermath, Repatriation of "Greek by Genus"). "

All your proposed topics are actually covered in the article already. PMK1 (talk) 11:58, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

I have no issue with keeping the maximalist ethnic "Macedonian" estimates, if only to highlight how outrageous ethnic "Macedonian" claims are in general when it comes to this issue. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· 12:07, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Typical. PMK1 (talk) 12:11, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Regarding this: Because Macedonian means something else to me. Sorry, matey. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· 12:17, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Me too PMK1 (talk) 12:22, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

By the way, do we really need that separate "exodus" section? All it does is regurgitate information from earlier sections, almost verbatim. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· 12:27, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

It was a merge between the articles remember, i am sure that we can have one condensed chapter on the Exodus. Dont forget it is a prominent POV in the Republic of Macedonia and the Diaspora, especially amognst the Aegean Macedonians. Anyway arent we trying to remove the "excessive" references to "ethnic macedonians" in the upper sections?, this can be a chapter focused solely on them i guess. They do deserve it after all. PMK1 (talk) 12:31, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

In other words, you want a WP:POVFORK within the article. I'm not sure you can do that. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· 14:38, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Look, PMK1. I am not arguing on the current or the previous structure, I am trying to propose something less biased. Of course my proposition on the structure is quite the same as yours. I disagree on keeping this "Exodus" thing you have been arguing about. We can have a link to another article, but in this one is biasing it to a wrong direction.

Please note that I am not arguing whereas these minority was "Slavophone greeks", "grekoman", "Aegean Macedonias" or not. I believe that we can reach common ground if we agree on how to comprise political and ethnological threads of this issue.

I understand very well your urge to highlight this issue, but it creates a whole different article!

I am standing on my initial opinion that the issue is mostly political.

I suggest we go paragraph by paragraph and after finalizing each one, then move to the other. ΚΕΚΡΩΠΑ do you agree on this? PMK1, is this covering your POV? Dkace (talk) 13:42, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Sure, that's what I've been calling for all along. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· 14:38, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Still I haven't seen any quotation from the sources I have asked above. Are there any? The number of children is highly controversial and completely contradictive! News sites and biased publications can not be used. The terms Slav-Macedonian or Slavophones are common in many documents of the time period. The term "ethnic Macedonians" how ever doesn’t appear in any source. (As you can see I used the termed Slav-Macedonian not Slavophone) The opening paragraph as it is far more neutral than the version of PMK1. Seleukosa (talk) 16:19, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree to your proposal Dkace, the whole section of the exodus is due to the [vote] over the article, which ended up with a merge to this article. A major reason for keeping the exodus issue it was decided that the former article should be merged to here. I am aware of your disapproval to this, but that is how the wiki community voted. The suggestion is not only reasonable but workable.

Number of child refugees

@ Seleukosa, you know perfectly well that all the sources have from 28,000 - 32,000 as the number of children evacuated.

Minority Rights Case Study: Macedonians in Greece-Zhidas Daskalovski : However, in 1949 DAG forces were defeated and a new exodus of Macedonians from Greece followed. The number of those who fled is estimated at 100,000 including 28,000 children.

Simpson, Neil (1994). Macedonia Its Disputed History. Victoria: By 1950 over 40,000 Macedonians had fled from Greece, the majority formed apart of the 28,000 children who had been evacuated.

Macridge, Peter A.; Eleni Yannakakis (1997). Ourselves and Others: The Development of a Greek Macedonian Cultural Identity Since 1912: This last wave of Slav Macedonian political refugees from Greek Macedonia included perhaps as many as 30,000 children, most of whom were the children of Slav Macedonian guerillas

Danforth, Loring M. (1997). The Macedonian Conflict. Princeton University Press, 54: In one of the most tragic episodes of this period 28,000 Aegean Macedonian children, known as "child refugees" (deca begalci) were seperated from their families and settled in Eastern Europe and the Soviet Union in an attempt to save them from the terror, slaughter and bombings inflicted on the Aegean Macedonians by the greek government.

Migration Flows in Southeast Europe, a Compendium of National Perspectives, Vladimir Petronijević, 2007: However, in 1949 DAG forces were defeated and a new exodus of Macedonians from Greece followed. The number of those who fled is estimated at 100,000 including 28,000 children.

Minahan, James (2000). One Europe, Many Nations: A Historical Dictionary of European National Groups. Greenwood Publishing Group, 440: Following the Greek Civil War an estimated 80,000 to 100,000 Slavs left Greek Macedonia, many to Yugoslav Macedonia

Shea, John (1997). Macedonia and Greece: The Struggle to Define a New Balkan Nation. MrFarland, 117: Among the refugees of the Greek Civil War were 28,000 Macedonian children between the ages of 2 and 14.

Frucht, Richard (2000). Eastern Europe: An Introduction to the People, Lands, and Culture. ABC-CLIO, 599: According to statistics published by the United Nations which relied on documents prepared by the United Nations Special Comitees on the Balkans (UNSCOB), between 25,000 and 28,000 children left northern Greece between 1948-1949.

All of the sources are valid, they all give figures c. 28000. They are not biased publications for stating such figures, as this was the case. You have attacked the source given claiming that they are invalid and wrong, when in fact that is what they state. Not my problem if you dont like it, WP:IDONTLIKEIT. The issue is not the ethnicity of the refugees (not at the moment anyways), but the number and your incorrect defamation of sources. Those number are generally agreed on as the number of refugee children. PMK1 (talk) 05:41, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

There is a catch with all these references. None is contemporary to the actual years but they are written AFTER the foundation of the modern state of FYROM or RM. Does any one of them uses the reports of DSE of Yugoslavic government mentioned before?No- from what I read here. So, we come back to the previous point; The article is not there to state an ethnic clearance that is disputed, but to describe the Political Refugee problem occurred after the end of war. And the problem is that people with POLITICAL background were not allowed to return to the country. A side effect of that is that those belonging to the Slav-Macedonian minority of Northern Greece were striped their citizenship - which did not occur for the rest.

Furthermore, the decision of the Provisional Government was "Stand down on alert" " Το όπλο παραπόδα".kept the main body of DSE in Taskent on army formation until 1953. This is the main issue of this article. I think we have to focus on this and refer to the Slav-Macedonian issue as a side effect of the war and link to another article.Dkace (talk) 08:38, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

I can see what you are saying. If you wish i can begin to write about the places where the refugees were sent and the aftermath of the exodus of refugees. Dkace, there was another article (Exodus of Macedonians), it was agreed to by a vote that that article should be merged into this one. I cannot see what the big problem is if that happens, after all that is what was voted upon. PMK1 (talk) 09:12, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Still, a WP:POVFORK within the article is unacceptable. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· 09:16, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Not a POVFORK, merely a content issue which users thought could be better covered in this article. Unlike the POVFORK which was Ethnic Macedonian Genocide, now that is a POVFORK. PMK1 (talk) 11:49, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

I still don't see how repeating the same information using a POV section title and terminology is even remotely acceptable. Could others share their thoughts on this? ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· 23:27, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Im still not following, define the same? The section informs readers of the Slav Macedonian presence in the war and their exodus from Greece. After re-reading the article several times i must agree that the second paragraph of the chapter should be extended as to provide more slav macedonian specific features/events in the exodus. PMK1 (talk) 05:22, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Read it again, then. The "exodus" section repeats earlier paragraphs almost word-to-word. The only difference I can see is the unsourced stuff about the Slavic culture "flourishing" under the NOF. But as I said, I'd like somebody else to comment. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· 06:30, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Why is so difficult to come up with a so simple article! It is not the definition of the cause of the Greek Civil War ! It is about the Greek POLITICAL Refugees of the Greek Civil War. PMK1 you have to explain your insistence on repeating the NOF article ( instead of linking it) and try to provide irrelevant information with the subject!

I am stating again, that the POLITICAL Refugees of the Greek Civil War is a different chapter than the Slav-Macedonian problem in the region.For the article of Slav-Macedonian population is one of historical highlights, but not for the Greek Civil War!Dkace (talk) 07:54, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Reorganizing structure and contents of article

I will start from the introduction of the article and go down paragraph by paragraph.

Regarding the origins: Origins of the Political Refugees is the Greek Civil War. All the rest stated there do not belong to the cause of the problem ( Political refugee movement in 1948-1949). Within the Greek Civil War paragraph we can add the position of KKE regarding the Slav-Macedonians.

Please respond with your comments or suggestions

Dkace (talk) 08:14, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

I am glad you are willing to work on the article. But no offence as Fut perf. your english must improve, or simply post the desired text on the talk page so that it can be rewritten to wiki standard, but that is not a problem. What is a problem though is that apparently the decision to begin evacuating children was after the battle of Grammos-Vitsi, this occured in 1949. What is interesting is that the evacuatino of children began in 1948, highlighting a factual inaccuracy. Please improve the accuracy and facts which you wish to have included here, for that reason i am reverting your "revised" intro. Also try to refrain from removing sourced information unless it is vital, also please begin to use Western sources not just Greek sources which are bound to have a strong POV. PMK1 (talk) 05:23, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

I will do my best with english- fortunately people are reading in daily bases the article and they correct the Greenglish I post! :)

As for the rest: I revert it the intro in order to give an idea what the main line of the article should be. The "Exodus of Macedonian" is a fact according to your literature, but still is not the main issue on the problem of the Political Refugees of the Greek Civil War.So, I believe that we have to put a sentence in the intro and a separate paragraph in the article and not reference the whole article in this issue.

If you agree, please revert the intro accordingly - or better- let's see a draft intro before uploading anything.

Please excuse my lack of references at this point. I am trying to help on a "system" level - main structure, etc. and I am not near my library. My changes - additions will be more detailed as soos as we decide the final structure and the final contents of the article. Dkace (talk) 09:08, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

That is perfectly fine, good luck with refining your english. I hope you do not mind but i will add to the section, of the child refugees across the world. If you wish contribute to the Tashkent colony of the exiled communists. I have also reworded the second paragraph, as per the concern that you raised. PMK1 (talk) 03:14, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Terminology regarding the Greek Civil WaR

Given the fact that some of the people working on this project are not familiar with the terminology I would like to suggest the following:

a. As it was a Civil War between Greek political fractions ( leftist and rightist ) despite the fact that there was political and logistic support from Great Britain, USA, SRY, SRA and USSR, I suggest we keep the terminology that is accepted today. If we have to mention titles or names i.e. monarch -fascist army, bandit groups, etc this should be quoted and referred to the side that used it.

b. I have noticed - and revert- that mainly in the sections regarding the Slav-Macedonian population, the terms "ELAS" is used to define the Communist partizans and "Helenic Army" to define the Army of the Government of Athens. I suggest we keep the terms: "DSE", or "Democratic Army" for one side and "National Army" for the rival side. Furthermore, I suggest the terms " Provisional Government" for the Communist controlled government of the mountains and "Government of Athens" for the elected government of 1946.

Historically, ELAS and its branches seize to exist after the Varkiza Treaty in February 1945, and the term Helenic Army is biasing the article to the right wing side.

Please revert with your commends or suggestions

Dkace (talk) 08:44, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

That is not a problem if it is to be more encyclopedic. And by SRA and SFY you mean PRA and FPRY. Also try not to claim that a source about Slav Macedonians is from the Maceodnian point of veiw when it is written by a non-Macedonian author. PMK1 (talk) 20:26, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

You are correct. It was Peoples Republics. For the second point, there are sources of the right wing in Greece that want to diminish the Greek Civil War to a haunt of communist bandits and foreign communist forces violating greek borders from Yugoslavia and Albania. They are not "pro-Macedonian" but they use the same references. We can present all sources, but we do have to stress this out.Dkace (talk) 09:02, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

I think that you are missing the point here. "By 1948, Slav Macedonians comprised over 30% of the DSE's fighting force according to some estimates, but these cannot be verified by any official documents produced by the DSE, Provisional Government and KKE, which nonetheless have provided detailed lists of the majority of the DSE fighters and the civilians that fled Greece.". So basically the KKE has provided detailed lists on all of the fighters and civilians that fled Greece. How do we know that 30% of the civilians are not Slav Macedonians?, your source does not even have any evidence suggesting that this was not the case. Rather you have presented the opinion that KKE has provided sources claiming that this was not the case and have pushed it as a fact. Are you able to provide a source from the KKE in actual reference to the propostion of Slav Macedonians in the DSE. ?? PMK1 (talk) 22:18, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Ok, now we reached a wall. Same discussion is opened in the NOF article. I am doing my research to pin down specific points that NUMBERS are presented and when I finish with his we will open it again. At this point we can have only current Macedonian references together with greek right-winged ones or British references ( Woodhouse) of that era.But this have to be stated clearly The issue is much deeper and reaches the basic propaganda of the right wing in the Greek Civil War. As a small outline, I can note that the numbers the official KKE documents are issuing, together with Yugoslavian references or that era, are not putting the number of the civilians ( at least) to the numbers presented by the pro-monarch Greek or other sources.

I am also trying to state the following: All sources can be accepted - within the wili specs- and we have to present EVERYTHING in the article. We are not re-writing history here. So, if a source such as Woodhouse states that DSE had 30% of Slav-Macedonians in its ranks we have to state it. But, at the same time we have to state the structure of DSE Corps, the places that was controlling, the lists of DSE fighters that Provisional Government provides ( all these via the official documents KKE has issued as well as pro-Communist sources that exceed in numbers the pro-monarch ones). But we have to state EVERYTHING.

Why is this point so difficult to overcome? we are not contacting some kind of a war in here, are we?

Dkace (talk) 08:42, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

I agree with you entirely there is a sourcing problem. I was merely saying what you added "but these cannot be verified by any official documents produced by the DSE, Provisional Government and KKE, which nonetheless have provided detailed lists of the majority of the DSE fighters and the civilians that fled Greece.". Is badly worded and irrelevant. The KKE provided lists of all the fighters? And, what kind of a list did it provide, names? Basically did the KKE provide published lists stating that the Slav Macedonians were less than 30% of the KKE at this point? You have the written that the KKE had lists, lists of what?, name?. Names enough are not a way to define ethnicity. That is the issue. PMK1 (talk) 11:30, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

PMK1 please see relevant topic in NOV articleDkace (talk) 21:49, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Notable Political refugees

I have a second sugggestion regarding this list:

It is well known that the majority of the children that were evacuated in the Social States became scientists, engineers, university professors etc.

If we open a list with these people, then we may end up with some 30.000 names or so - remember that political refugees are still leaving and working in these states, belonging to the 3rd generation or so.

I suggest we keep the list to Political refugees that had a significant role during the Civil War, before the Civil War and after it. This applies to politicians, intellectuals, prominent members of local communities etc. By this way we ensure that the article will keep the scope of the problem and we will not start new articles within the article.

As ΚΕΚΡΩΠΑΣ and PMK1 have contributed on this, I would like their reaction. Dkace (talk) 08:29, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

I agree, the list should be kept to a minimum. Having a long list of redlinks of people of dubious notability is both unencyclopaedic and ugly. Only the really notable should be there. Note to PMK1: Does anyone outside the Republic know or care who those people were? ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· 09:35, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Question: Are descendants of the (so called) refugees, refugees themselves?? I mean, if I'm a refugee, my grandson won't be one if he has not fled a country.--Michael X the White (talk) 11:55, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Excellent point. Otherwise we might as well classify Nikolas Grouios as one of the Deca Begalci. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· 12:02, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Answering the above question, we have to take under consideration what followed the Political Exile of 1949: Some of the fighters and there families demanded to return to Greece but they couldn't get visa. Others ( a very few) managed to return and stay as greek citizens. All those that were located in SRM where characterized non-Greeks and they couldn't sustain their citizenship pr get a visa. For some of the children as well as the fighters and KKE memebers -up to 1975 -it was forbidden by the Party to return by their own effort back, as KKE was pressing the Greek governments for total return of all the Political Refugees under a new law. So, we can state that also the 2nd generation children were Political Refugees, under different circumstances .Dkace (talk) 13:19, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

I wouldnt go so far as saying descendants would be considered refugees as well. Nikola Gruevski is certainly not a politicial refugee of the Greek Civil War. If you are using the term "prosfyges" in a similar way to refer to the pontian greeks in Macedonia in a similar way to refer to these refugees, the usage is unencyclopedic. Many 2ng generation "refugees" have never been to greece and unlike their parents their home land has become either Macedonia or some where else.

We are talking about here the refugees who "left" greece not their children or grandchildren. If you include people during the civil war and before, you will obviously remove the Refugee chidlren, who are the most notable group of refugees that left. What about instead of redlinks that the refugees have their names put into italics should somebody decide to create an article on the person? PMK1 (talk) 00:22, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Why do you feel that you need to add a long list of people nobody outside the fYRoM knows or cares about? What are you trying to prove? ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· 04:03, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

And still, would people like Vafeiadis, Zachariadis and Florakis be considered refugees?? It's not exactly the case.... And why is Petros notable? Because he is Socrates's daddy? (Note his statue in Grammos was actually removed because it was being daily shot by hunters!) About the rest, just being a professor or a journalist does not make one notable...--Michael X the White (talk) 11:00, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Michael, don't be so ..right! Petros Kokkalis was a Professor of the Greek Medicine School, he was a student of one of the most famous Medicine Schools of the world in the pre-war Germany, he was member of PEEA and of the Provisional Government. It is a petty that you choose to "neglect" historical facts under your right winged (perhaps fascist) POV. (Note his statue in Grammos is vandalized by neo-NAZIs - how do you know those details is a bit of a problem...)Dkace (talk) 09:20, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

I think you could have simply given a simple answer with facts, which could be unillustrated by your own views. Of course I do not have to answer to your accusations but I will only inform you that I read this in (local) Epirotan press, mentioning "locals of Grammos". "Details" about those people seem to be speculations from the interior of the two parliamentary extreme left-wing parties.

Anyway!Let's take him being part of the "provisional government" making him notable, ok? What I mean about the 4 I referred to is that they're not exactly refugees if they're political leaders. Not that they did not flee or that they wouldn't be imprisoned, but they did not leave to avoid imprisonment but because they lost the war, you see what I mean?--Michael X the White (talk) 10:51, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Only by labeling KKE ( CPG ) and SYN (!!!!) "parliament extreme left -parties" you label your self as an extreme -right citizen(?) with political views belonging in the '67 - '74 era. For what is worth, The article is "Political Refugees of the Greek Civil War". All refugees were political refugees with the small exception of the Slav-Macedonian villages that flee to avoid prosecution. But them as well were also "political refugees". What is exactly the problem? Dkace (talk) 12:38, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Not all of us around here have a political agenda you know... Anyway, I see your point about them.--Michael X the White (talk) 16:21, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Greek documentary

In the multimedia section of the article I have included the Greek documentary on ethnic Macedonian child refugees on TV MEGA (Part1) (Part2). One user erased it on grounds that it was in Greek and not in English. But if you look at external links of the Pontian Greeks article you will see that there are also links that are not in English, but nobody excludes them. The Greek documentary must stay. Regards. --Revizionist (talk) 11:55, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

No matter what language it's in, it's a copyright violation, we don't link to media illegally mirrored on youtube. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:09, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Ok, no problem. I thought it was removed only because it is not in English. Cheers. --Revizionist (talk) 23:25, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with File:Begalci.jpg

The image File:Begalci.jpg is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check

• That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
• That this article is linked to from the image description page.

The following images also have this problem:

• File:Egej.jpg

This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. --18:39, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Re-write needed

This article has to be re-written or just radically improved. It has so many repetitions (e.g. 'the exiled Macedonian children learnt 4 languages') and the information present there lacks any order so the article is very difficult to comprehend. Presently, we have a very long and poor article. --Pan Miacek and his crime-fighting dog (woof!) 11:42, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

I would second this. As far as someone not related to this subject I see some questions:

1. Why is stated "all children under the age of 15 would be evacuated"? I miss something along the lines of "(sometimes) evacuated by force or abducted".

2. Why is stated "had been executed by firing squads" about ELAS Partisans, EAM members and other pro-communist citizens? Where is the same stated abour communists killing others ?

I must admit that executing former Nazi's could be necessary, but it should be stated here.

For now it seems more like KKE (and alikes) propaganda than an encyclopedia article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fred Mobach (talk • contribs) 19:54, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Images

This article needs better images. One map has many detailed coordinates about refugee establishments but is completely unreferenced about where that information exists. The image of the logo of the organisation "Aegean part..." doesn't have a reason to be included here. It belongs to the article about that organisation. If we included the logos of every org relevant to the civil war this page would resemble an advertising platform. There are many other orgs related to the Greek civil war but Undue weight is put on a single one. Furthermore I am not sure that the fair use rationale for that logo is justified for this article that is for a generic topic. It may be only justified for an article specifically about that organisation. Shadowmorph ^{^"^} 23:10, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

The heroic age

The heroic age is a book (novel) by the poet and writer Stratis Haviaras (ISBN 978-0140079760) that tells the story of what happened to a group of children aged six to fourteen (the heroic age) at the time of the civil war in Greece, just after WWII, that tried to reach freedom, (the Albanian border). After the failed attempt to reach the border they join the Andartes, and finally they end up in a re-education camp of the government. Mahjongg (talk) 01:01, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Greek Civil War

This article is supposed to be about the Greek Civil War and not yet another propaganda outlet for the "Republic of Macedonia". Sheesh!  Nipsonanomhmata  ^(Talk) 01:01, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

Would you like to elaborate.... Lunch for Two (talk) 06:11, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

There appears to be a great deal of content concerning the "Republic of Macedonia" when this article is called "Refugees of the Greek Civil War". It's as though this article has been written by someone from the former Yugoslavia with a heavy Communist spin on the history. The Communists were the vanquished at the end of the Civil War. It is strange that this article strongly reflects the POV of the vanquished and strongly ignores the dominant English version of history. btw I don't disagree with your last edit in removing the Greek infobox too, I was considering doing that myself because it seems unnecessary for this particular article.  Nipsonanomhmata  ^(Talk) 11:42, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

"Slav" Macedonians

I changes all "SlavoMacedonian" "Slavic-Macedonian" "Macedonian Slavic" etc to ethnic Macedonians, since that is how they identity FAIRuno (talk) 18:24, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

The question of identity is covered within the article. Sourced info is much appreciated. --Laveol ^T 19:55, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

removing POV tag with no active discussion per Template:POV

I've removed an old neutrality tag from this page that appears to have no active discussion per the instructions at Template:POV:

This template is not meant to be a permanent resident on any article. Remove this template whenever:

1. There is consensus on the talkpage or the NPOV Noticeboard that the issue has been resolved
2. It is not clear what the neutrality issue is, and no satisfactory explanation has been given
3. In the absence of any discussion, or if the discussion has become dormant.

Since there's no evidence of ongoing discussion, I'm removing the tag for now. If discussion is continuing and I've failed to see it, however, please feel free to restore the template and continue to address the issues. Thanks to everybody working on this one! -- Khazar2 (talk) 01:19, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

The term Ethnic Macedonian and Macedonian should not be used to describe Slavic Macedonians in this article

Simply because it confuses the neutral. Surely a Greek born in Macedonia is a Macedonian, just as a Greek born in Crete is a Cretan? The term Slav Macedonian makes it clearer to the neutral and should be used in this article. Reaper7 (talk) 22:18, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Total rewrite or speedy deletion needed

This article is total crap! It's so FYROM's POV that need to be deleted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 37.6.247.183 (talk) 02:03, 14 September 2016 (UTC)

That's right. They mislead the reader by hiding the slavic names of the authors, (e.g. Aleksandar Panev), and showing only the name of the editor (Richard Frucht). Children did not walk alone on the mountains to Yugoslavia. They were taken by the retreating communist guerillas. The case was brought to the UN and named as "genocide". --Skylax30 (talk) 20:55, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

Please, justify the tag you have added to this article. Slavic name of an author whose opinion is mentioned in one sentence is a silly reason for that. It sounds also weird and nonsensical a Slavic name to be something scary. By the way I have removed this controversial sentence. Jingiby (talk) 17:19, 2 October 2021 (UTC)

Regarding that sentence, what's the issue with it? It states "according to some sources..." and then it provides the counterview in the same sentence. --Local hero ^talk 03:55, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

The topic and the place are "hot spots" and the ethnicity of the sources does matter. If the slavic name doesn't matter, so should be for the greek sources. However, the article says that "The official Greek position was ..." and in a previous paragraph "The KKE [i.e. the Greek Comm.Party] claims that the total number ...". In total, the non-Greek sources appear neutral and pressumably more credible, and the greek sources as "claiming" or "disputing" the former. This is one of the methods to promote a POV. Of course, the abduction of children can be supported by many third party sources, and this will be fixed later.--Skylax30 (talk) 20:52, 3 October 2021 (UTC)