Talk:Van der Graaf Generator

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Van der Graaf Generator has been listed as one of the Music good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.

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Date	Process	Result
October 31, 2012	Good article nominee	Listed

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Samples

Would this article benefit from one or more music samples? And if so, which? Martinevans123 (talk) 21:10, 6 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

We've already got two, and I've added them to the article. Along with those, something from Trisector or A Grounding In Numbers (provided it can pass NFCC) might be useful to the reader understands their current style and can compare it to yesteryear. Ritchie333 ^(talk) ^(cont) 13:49, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

We'll I do hope so. Illustrating 40 years and 26 albums' worth of output with three 30 second clips sounds quite optimistic to me. Too bad that external link(s) to YouTube live performance(s) would no doubt be deemed inappropriate. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:04, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Have now also done this one, although obviously chronologically very close. (Total personal bias, I'm afraid). Martinevans123 (talk) 18:30, 6 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Have now added, under "Musical style". But feel free to replace with something from a different period if deemed more appropriate. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:29, 8 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Timeline

Do the vertical lines need some kind of explanation/key? Martinevans123 (talk) 19:29, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Pawn Hearts number one in Italy?

Please see this edit to the page Pawn Hearts. I've seen similar remarks before, seemingly about which "chart" we should refer to. At the moment the VdGG-article says the album was "topping the chart there" (whereas it would probably be more accurate to say it was "topping a chart there", or to simply say it was hugely successful there). We need to find out if the edit summary given is correct ("Pawn Hearts was never number one in the official Italian charts but only in the special charts compiled by the music magazine Ciao 2001. In the official Italian charts the album peaked at number 9 on March 7th 1972 then staying in the top 100 for 12 weeks") and to do that we need to read the Paolo Carnelli source. To be honest, to me it looks quite credible... Anyone? Mark in wiki (talk) 12:00, 13 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

According to David Kavanagh in Mojo here, Pawn Hearts reached number one in Italy, and the earlier source, Edward Macan's "Rocking the Classics" says it topped the Italian charts for twelve weeks. That makes two reliable sources, but you may recall no less an authority than Peter Hammill himself complaining that some stuff Kavanagh wrote was just wrong or inaccurate. I think we should see what The Book says, and if that says it reached number one in Italy, we should go with that. Ritchie333 ^(talk) ^(cont) 14:39, 13 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

You have a copy of The Book by now, don't you? On page 137 it says: "The group [..] were completely shocked to find out that both Pawn Hearts and "Theme One" were at number one in the Italian charts." On that same page is a quote by Banton: "The promoter, Maurizio Salvadori, told us that our album was at number one in the charts"... All these mentions, btw, amidst mentions of army vehicles, riot police, smoke bombs, tear gas, and mayhem. One more from page 138: ""Pawn Hearts was number one and the single was number one," recalls David, "The myth is that the album was at number one for sixteen weeks, I don't know."" That's probably enough to change back the edit that was made to the page Pawn Hearts, although I'd still like to read the Paolo Carnelli source. Mark in wiki (talk) 16:58, 13 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I think since The Book is generally considered, not least by the band members themselves, to be the best source going, that we're within rights to revert, and point the reverter at the discussion here. Ritchie333 ^(talk) ^(cont) 09:52, 14 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

linking to pages that we reasonably believe may be hosting copyright content without permission,

Per WP:LINKVIO, if you know or reasonably suspect that an external Web site is carrying a work in violation of the creator's copyright, do not link to that copy of the work. So, "Van der Graaf Generator fan site (www.VanDerGraafGenerator.co.uk)" in the external links, doesn't fit in. However, this site is linked for one of the sources in the article, for an interview ; so die hard fans of this band will surely find it one way or another. Woovee (talk) 00:15, 3 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Woovee, The front page of the website says, "I have not intentionally infringed any copyrights myself." Where is your evidence that it has? Ritchie333 ^(talk) ^(cont) 09:37, 3 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It might be useful to tell other editors what that copyio is, so that they do not, sometime in the future, unwittingly copy it into the article? But you'd have to do that without copying the words here, I guess. I once tried to explain what was and was not copyright on a Talk page and was accused of further copyvio, which then had to be revdel-ed. Perhaps User:Diannaa could advise further. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:45, 3 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think our policies describe convenience links to old newspaper sources (to aid verification) very well, where a reasonable argument for fair use could be made, and which I would consider broadly equivalent to Abandonware. For example, if a website has an extract from a piece in NME or Melody Maker from 50 years ago, are there any non-trivial reduced opportunities for publishing and income from the copyright holders? If you really want to clamp down on this sort of thing, a better place to start would be to question why archive.org has free downloads of MacOS Leopard despite being obviously in copyright to Apple Inc? Ritchie333 ^(talk) ^(cont) 10:54, 3 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

We don't base our copyright policies on our chances of getting caught, or on what other websites choose to do. WP:LINKVIO, which is part of our copyright policy, states that "if you know or reasonably suspect that an external Web site is carrying a work in violation of the creator's copyright, do not link to that copy of the work." So that is what we are supposed to do.— Diannaa (talk) 13:45, 3 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

But in this case, the website's owner unequivocally says they didn't. Ritchie333 ^(talk) ^(cont) 13:52, 3 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Well it's obvious that they did violate others' copyright. For instance this document which is used in the citations is a scan of a 2009 NEARfest programme. We shouldn't be using that website as citations, or as external links either. — Diannaa (talk) 13:59, 3 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

So email the website owner, who takes copyright seriously, and tell him. Ritchie333 ^(talk) ^(cont) 14:00, 3 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I don't have time to police the entire internet. There's enough to do right here on our own website. Here is an alternative source that likely covers the same topics as the Jim Christopulos interview. — Diannaa (talk) 14:05, 3 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the clarification, Diannaaa. Perhaps Woovee can tell us if there are other copyright violations on that site, that other editors should be aware of. If I had not seen this discussion, as I am far from being a VDGG expert, I'd have had no suspicion that any of it was coyvio. Especially with that clear statement on the front page. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:22, 3 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks to Diannaa for engaging a conversation with us and giving precious advice & suggestion. So, I found an alternative source to replace the link of the fan site, for the 2003 Judge Smith interview by Christopulos. The new source which is an interview from Prog magazine covers all the facts, except for the length of their first gig (five minutes cut short due to amplifiers in fire) ; one may presume that Christopulos must have included this anecdote in his 2005 book - if someone can add at which page ? Ritchie333, concerning the archives of the UK press, a site like Rock's Backpages reproduced many articles about the band with the permission of the copyright holders, including reviews of Melody Maker and the NME published 50 years ago Here. Woovee (talk) 03:39, 4 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Banton at the BBC

The article for Hugh Banton says "After leaving school he trained as a television engineer with the BBC in Evesham, and subsequently in London," which seems to be sourced to Christopulos & Smart (2005). No mention of him being a camerman? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 07:51, 4 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Martinevans123, Christopulos & Smart p.18 says Banton joined the BBC at the end of 1967 in the Training Department in Evesham, then got a position as a news cameraman and telerecording engineer in the Alexandra Palace studios. You could ping HughBanton (talk · contribs) to verify that, but I'm not sure you'd get a reply. Ritchie333 ^(talk) ^(cont) 19:56, 4 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sure they were nine great edits. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:35, 4 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Dave Anderson

"The remaining members auditioned Dave Anderson, roadie for Brinsley Schwarz and friend of the band, but after a week's rehearsal found that things weren't working out musically." Is this the same Dave Anderson who played with Hawkwind and Amon Düül II? Jah77 (talk) 19:38, 22 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]