Talk:Zanclean flood/Archive 1

Archive 1

Copyright text?

Doesn't a nearly word-for-word inclusion of the BBC's article on the subject constitute copyright infringement? 89.204.248.174 (talk) 04:37, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

It's not word-for-word or even nearly so.--Michael C. Price ^talk 05:40, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Much of the second paragraph is, actually, copied from the BBC article. It was introduced in the first edit. -- Black Falcon ^(talk) 18:24, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

I have addressed the issue. Please remove the copyvio tag when ready. ~AH1^(TCU) 21:44, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

Refs. 4 & 5 are identical

See subject line — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.170.196.53 (talk) 14:26, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

Combined, thanks. CMD (talk) 14:52, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

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Italy and Sicily doing a dance?

Take a look at that first picture. Compare where the Appennine spine and Sicily are shown. The mountain spine down the center of Italy should *not* point directly at Sicily! (another topographic view) If the south of Italy has shifted 150-200 miles to the Northeast in the last 5 million years, I can't find a mention yet. Also, the Adriatic east coast seems relatively correct, but again, not in relation to the pictured Appennines.

User:Paubahi seems to have only uploaded these pictures and disappeared? Does anyone have a glimmer what these representations may have been based on? Because the result looks really bad (perhaps anti-Italian bias? ;-) ) Shenme (talk) 04:37, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

I can't really tell. There are some geographical differences but nothing clear-cut. doi:10.3301/ROL.2013.03 indicates that the Apennines have been thrusted over the Adria so that may be accurate, but nothing clear on Sicily. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 10:44, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

5.3 million years of plate movement can produce dramatic changes. In this case it's about the opening of the Tyrrhenian Sea, which mostly happened between the end of the Messinian and the present day, so shifting Italy (the Apulian Plate) to the east as it continued to collide with the Adriatic Plate. This collision is still just about going on at the southern edge of the Po Plain (witness the 2012 Northern Italy earthquakes). In the centre of the current Apennines, the late Miocene rocks of the Laga Basin were deposited in deepwater marine conditions, before getting involved in the collision, such that they are now in the mountains. I've checked with several paleogeographic reconstructions for the Messinian and the ones in our article don't look too far off those published. Mikenorton (talk) 11:02, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

23 million years ago Corsica and Sardinia were attached to southern France, with some parts of what is now Italy attached to them. This paper has some useful maps showing the dramatic changes to the geography of the Western Mediterranean since then. Mikenorton (talk) 11:07, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

meaning of "Zanclean"?

What is the origin of this word? what does it mean? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 120.18.244.213 (talk) 00:56, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

It is named after Zancla, the pre-Roman name for the Italian city of Messina on Sicily. Gerard von Hebel (talk) 18:43, 22 November 2013 (UTC)

To elaborate, while the name originates from the pre-Roman name of Messina, the flood isn't named for the city directly. Rather it is named for the sedimentary layers (strata) which begin after that event, known as the "Zanclean Stage", and the corresponding subdivision of geologic time, the "Zanclean Age". The strata, in turn, were named in 1868 for the pre-Roman name of Messina, long before the modern flood hypothesis had been proposed. --Colin Douglas Howell (talk) 07:36, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

That is interesting Colin Douglas Howell. Perhaps you could add an Etymology section explaining it. Dudley Miles (talk) 09:50, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

To editor Dudley Miles: you can't add a ping, it must be a new, signed line. Ditto if you make a mistake the first time. Pinging Colin Douglas Howell. Doug Weller talk 12:51, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

Zanclean flood and Pliny

If you want wikipedia to suggest that the 1st century Roman historian Pliny had anything to say about a flood theorized by Maria Bianca Cita in 1972 to have taken place 5.33 million years ago, then could you please provide a reliable secondary source that makes this connection? As it is, if it is again added without any secondary source, I will reluctantly have to mention this on the wp:fringe board. Thanks, Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 17:56, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

I've deleted it again. It is original research unless a secondary source makes a connection. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 14:08, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Well, don't you just tag the material, if it is just sources you're after? -- cheers, Michael C. Price ^talk 15:21, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Because Pliny's comments can't in any meaningful way be recording a folk memory of events that occurred millions of years ago. WP:REDFLAG. Paul B (talk) 15:35, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Blatant WP:OR doesn't get to sit in entries, tagged as unreferenced. It should stay out until it has the sourcing that shows it is not OR. WP:NOR is policy. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 15:37, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

And in fact I tagged it Dec 14 before removing it Feb 14, but no source was forthcoming, and you (Michael) even removed the tag. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 15:40, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

It could just be that Pliny hypothesized that the Mediterranean Sea was created when Atlantic Ocean water flooded the basin through the Strait of Gibraltar, which does not necessarily refer to the exact same hypothesized time period as ascertained by Cita et al., but nevertheless he proposed that such a flood had once taken place. Same geographic region, but different initiation of theory. ~AH1^(TCU) 21:34, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Agreed, AH1, that Pliny retrodicted a flood of the Med basin through the Gibraltar straits is obviously of interest to readers of the Zanclean flood. -- cheers, Michael C. Price ^talk 22:45, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Great, now all you would need for this to be considered citable, is any kind of external source that also agrees with you, since wp cannot publish original conjecture. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 19:30, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Galileo quotes Pliny in the Dialogue. Simplicio brings it in. The intent is not clear to me. [Norm Sleep] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 171.66.10.147 (talk) 17:17, 1 December 2018 (UTC)

Drop in oceans level ?

Mediterranean volume ÷ oceans surface = around 10.4 m.
But it would be nice to have an accurate figure, and the expected or known consequences.--Musaran (talk) 14:41, 28 February 2019 (UTC)

New sources

[1] and [2]; I don't have the stamina to apply them myself. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 15:27, 20 December 2020 (UTC)