Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Demas

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Deor (talk) 12:44, 3 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Demas

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Article about a non-notable figure barely mentioned in the New Testament, about whom nothing is known. The pop culture section includes separate figures who share the name, but who for all the reliable sources I can find might as well be named after the entirely unrelated robber in the Narrative of Joseph of Aramathea, one of the robbers crucified with Jesus. Also, Paul didn't write the Pastoral Epistles. ;-) Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 04:24, 25 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Automated comment: This AfD was not correctly transcluded to the log (step 3). I have transcluded it to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2014 September 25. —cyberbot I ^Notify_Online 04:48, 25 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Christianity-related deletion discussions. NorthAmerica¹⁰⁰⁰ 05:23, 25 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Literature-related deletion discussions. NorthAmerica¹⁰⁰⁰ 05:23, 25 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. NorthAmerica¹⁰⁰⁰ 05:24, 25 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. Even the smallest biblical subjects tend to draw commentary, such as in this book by John F. MacArthur [1] and this essay collection [2]. --Arxiloxos (talk) 05:55, 25 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Keep The 'pop culture' section is not as described in the nom - each of the references are specifically to the biblical character - that authors over several centuries thought Demas notable enough to reference him in this way seems notable in itself. StuartDouglas (talk) 12:07, 25 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@User:StuartDouglas: On slightly closer inspection, I think you may be right that all the fictional references at least refer to the NT character in question. However, both the Jane Eyre and Pilgrim's Progress reference appear to be bare mentions of the name; the Johnson novel is one fiction writer in 2007 writing a novel in which an (entirely fictional?) character is named for a New Testament figure about whom nothing is known. His name is mentioned once in a list of six of Paul's fellows in one of his undisputed letters, included in a similar list in one of the disputed epistles, with a piece of probably unhistorical information included in a probably forged epistle written decades after not only Paul but Demas had died. Up until I hid the offending text moments ago, the article openly lied about Demas being mentioned in another first-century text (check yourself!). The article might be expanded if some secondary sources can be found discussing his appearances in other early Christian literature.

How about this: the article is kept, but expanded to include other (related) figures who happen to share the name. I can't think of any other precedents for this, outside of superhero comics, though...

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 13:07, 25 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Just noticed that the other figure has his own, much longer, article in which this name is already given along with several other, mostly similar and probably related, names. I guess my latter idea is off the table then? I'm not even sure anymore. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 14:09, 25 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Feel free to withdraw your nomination. St Anselm (talk) 22:29, 25 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Why would I do that? The article I nominated still contains virtually no useful information, and this situation will likely continue. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 00:50, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Keep: Biblical characters are generally notable, and this one is no exception, as evidenced by the references in the article. The Jane Eyre and Pilgrim's Progress references are clearly to this person; the suggestions that it is to Dismas instead is highly implausible. St Anselm (talk) 22:21, 25 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The references to which you refer are non-notable name-drops, and please don't put words in people's mouths: I never claimed the references were to the other biblical figure. I merely said that reliable sources cover the (much-better-known) thief who is named Demas in non-canonical literature. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 06:00, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Keep per StAnselm. This Demas is covered in printed Bible encyclopedias, etc., and they are much smaller than Wikipedia. tahc ^chat 03:13, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Much smaller, as in their standard article length is shorter? On Wikipedia, articles that by definition cannot be expanded beyond WP:STUB-length are generally deleted or merged. There seems to be some theological question here, so I should point out that I don't mind one way or the other whether this article is deleted. A merger with one of the probably several WP:LISTs of biblical figures without independent articles would be acceptable. I am even willing to do a complete 180 and withdraw this AfD if someone presents me ANY convincing arguments other than assumptions of bad faith and "notable because he's in the Bible". (Sorry to put a direct paraphrase in quotes, but how else are we to interpret "Biblical characters are generally notable" and "per StAnselm"?) Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 06:00, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see any indication on the page you indicate that STUBs should be deleted or merged. Is that just your idea?

What I am saying above is that printed Bible encyclopedias are much shorter as whole than Wikipedia as a whole, and yet they still find room on there pages for such an article. Characters are generally notable if there are secondary or tershary sources on them. Demas has such sources. tahc ^chat 16:54, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not saying that stubs should be deleted or merged. I'm saying that articles that cannot by definition be expanded beyond stub length should be deleted or merged. Bible encyclopedias find room on their pages for a one-line article about how Demas was a follower of Paul and one of his letters indicates he left Paul. If you have a Bible encyclopedia on hand that provides more information than that, please add it to the article! Again I must stress that I don't have a dog in this race (I'm not a Christian, but I don't see it as a "win" to get articles on Christianity deleted), and I'm perfectly willing to withdraw my nom if some evidence is presented that this article will ever be anything more than a stub. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 00:59, 27 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Keep and improve. Satisfies GNG. Plenty of coverage in GBooks such as this. James500 (talk) 15:26, 27 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per StAnselm and passes WP:GNG.Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 12:19, 1 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.