Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2019 July 30

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July 30

Tag on WW2 planes

Hi all, how do you call in English the "tag" painted on WW2 planes to show how many planes they took down? Is there an article about it? Ericdec~enwiki (talk) 04:49, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

This is called a victory mark or a "kill mark". Someguy1221 (talk) 05:01, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

• Usually 'mission tallies' if they're bombers or support aircraft (counting scheduled missions), or 'kill markings' if they're on a fighter and are counting specific victories. Andy Dingley (talk) 22:46, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

Different pounds from different parts of the British Isles

I already know vaguely about the difference between the Scottish/NI pounds and the English pounds (the former are issued by banks and the latter by the government, or something like that - affecting their status as legal tender?). But I recently saw an exchange-rate board at a currency exchanger which offered three slightly different exchange rates for GBP, Scottish pound and Northern Irish pound.

What are the economics of this? How can these pounds be exchanged for different amounts, and what has gone into the decision to value them differently? Also, why was the NI pound the strongest, and the GBP the weakest of the three? Given that Scottish and NI pounds are not universally accepted in England (for reasons of familiarity, ie if you don't know what the note looks like you're more at risk of accepting a fraudulent one without realising it, like with the GBP50 note all over the UK and probably also the really big EUR notes in Europe), shouldn't they be *less* valuable?

(And, out of additional curiosity, are there any other currencies that have, I guess, "sub-currencies" the way the pound does? Different US states' dollars, for instance?) Zsmithzdlgs2 (talk) 14:03, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

Check out local currency, complementary currency and links. Not sure it applies, but people with a strong feeling of belonging to a community will favor the money issued by the community over the general money, if both have same nominal value. Gem fr (talk) 14:20, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

This doesn't seem like a principle that holidaymakers would be noble enough to inconvenience themselves to uphold. Though maybe a Scot about to return home and needing to exchange their leftover local money back *would* sacrifice a few pence (no Scots jokes please) in order to get Scottish money rather than English money to take back with them? Maybe that's the key - but with the rationale being the risk of non-acceptance of an English note in Scotland, rather than abstract national pride. Zsmithzdlgs2 (talk) 15:39, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

The legal tender value of all the different pounds is the same, but collectors will pay more than face value for a coin missing from their collection, especially if it is in mint condition. All coins are minted by the Royal Mint in Wales (including the Welsh pound). Scottish notes are usually accepted in northern England where I live, but in the south they are less familiar. Dbfirs 14:35, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

Wales does not have it's own money, I'm afraid, whether notes or coins. The last Welsh banknotes were withdrawn in 1908. (That's about ten past seven in old money). Martinevans123 (talk) 14:48, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

I was referring to the Welsh pound coin which was minted in 1985, 1990, 1995 and 2000 with the inscription "PLEIDIOL WYF I'M GWLAD". I agree that these are no longer legal tender, though they are still worth exactly a pound at a bank. Dbfirs 15:36, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

This is a slight tangent but my understanding is that those weren't Welsh in the sense of being issued for use in Wales or anything like that, they just carried Wales-themed "branding" ie the Welshness was purely cosmetic. We see them all the time in the English Midlands. Zsmithzdlgs2 (talk) 15:39, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

I agree that they were issued for general circulation. Dbfirs 15:43, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

In simple terms, each of the home nations "takes a turn" in having their national emblems used in the coin design. You ought to see all of the varieties, all the time, in the English Midlands, just like in any other region of the UK. Unless there's something fishy going on. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:48, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

I remember paying with a "scottish" pound coin in 1984 in Scotland when the Scots still had pound notes. I pointed out that it was a Scottish coin with the motto of the thistle "NEMO ME IMPUNE LACESSIT". They reluctantly accepted it.

I have a pound coin with the inscription "DECUS ET TUTAMEN LACESSIT". It's a fake, of course, and I should have handed it to the police, but I kept it because I appreciated the joke.Dbfirs 16:03, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

My latin knowledge is not great, but I am quite sure "DECUS ET TUTAMEN LACESSIT" is incorrect, if it even means something Gem fr (talk) 22:26, 31 July 2019 (UTC)

I definitely don't disagree with this on a factual basis (my dad collects coins and happily pays $$$ for, say, Vatican euros because they're rare and almost never used) but it feels wrong as an *explanation* for why a currency exchanger would do this. Coin-collectors' desires don't seem like they'd figure large in such a company's calculations. Though the euro comparison is an interesting one now I think about it; in principle all euros are created (minted?) equal but I think in practice the relative strengths of the eurozone economies may undermine this. I can quite see someone preferring to hold German euros than Greek euros. Zsmithzdlgs2 (talk) 14:51, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

I suspect that with the impending disintegration of the United Kingdom speculators are betting on NI and Scottish pounds ending up worth more than those of the Banana Republic of Borisland. DuncanHill (talk) 14:37, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

Setting aside the fact that disintegration is far from given, surely if one of those countries splits off then its pound will fall like a stone and probably be swiftly replaced by euros? Both of which would surely produce the opposite effect to what I observed. Also, as with coin-collectors above, I'm not certain that tourist-currency-exchangers and high-finance forex speculators would necessarily have the same goals and do the same things. Zsmithzdlgs2 (talk) 14:51, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

I think it much more likely that the marginally higher price of Scottish and Northern Irish notes just reflects the slightly greater difficulty and cost in obtaining the notes. Dbfirs 15:40, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

Yeah - in fact when you put it like that, the unusual thing is that they bothered to offer them at all. Particularly the NI one, which is even more obscure than the Scottish one. And this was Vilnius, rather than a full-on tourist-trap where you might reasonably expect large numbers of Scots and Northern Irish to be showing up (no disrespect intended to Vilnius here). Zsmithzdlgs2 (talk) 15:44, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

Welsh banknotes have long since gone, I'm sorry to say. We're seen as a bit of a black sheep Martinevans123 (talk) 14:43, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

The Panamanian Balboa hss a 1-1 link with the US dollar. There are no banknotes and the coins are exactly like US coins but for the designs (except the new one-balboa coins). They will work in US vending machines etc. The US Mint has often struck them.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:00, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

There are no state dollars. Who would want to have to learn 51 $20 bill designs and 51 $10 bill designs and 51 $5 bill etc. anyway? There are state quarters but those are just the regular coin with different backs. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 21:38, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

Just to clarify the original point; Coins of the pound sterling are the coinage of the whole United Kingdom, there are no regional coins, but sometimes, heraldic symbols of the various Home Nations have been used but were general issue across the Union. The current One pound (British coin) features a "rose, leek, thistle, and shamrock encircled by a coronet", the floral emblems of all four nations.

However, Banknotes of the pound sterling are regulated by the Bank of England, which despite its name, is the central bank for the whole United Kingdom. In addition, seven retail banks have permission to issue banknotes in the UK, although not in England or Wales, only in Scotland and Northern Ireland, although as our article says: "they are technically not legal tender anywhere in the UK – not even in Scotland or Northern Ireland – as they are in fact promissory notes". Although readily accepted in Scotland and NI, they may be declined by smaller shops in England which don't like the hassle involved in banking them.

Alansplodge (talk) 21:49, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

Assuming they can actually find a bank any more. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:55, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

My guess on this is that the exchange bureau was able to offer better rates on Bank of England notes as they are widely traded, but charged a premium on the thinly-traded Scot and NI notes. Assuming they actually had any.---Wehwalt (talk) 21:52, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

If this is so , don't waste your cash. Bank of England notes are legal tender accepted everywhere in the UK, the others may be declined away from their home turf. Alansplodge (talk) 21:57, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

The page on sterling banknotes begs to differ: "In Scotland and Northern Ireland, no banknotes, not even those issued in those countries, are legal tender." Zsmithzdlgs2 (talk) 07:16, 31 July 2019 (UTC)

I stand corrected , however: "Legal tender has a narrow technical meaning which has no use in everyday life. It means that if you offer to fully pay off a debt to someone in legal tender, they can’t sue you for failing to repay". See Bank of England - What is legal tender. Alansplodge (talk) 11:22, 31 July 2019 (UTC)

Exchange bureaux in the United Kingdom are not legally obliged to take any UK bank notes. even though they may not be legal tender. They are all worth exactly the same. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:02, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

High street banks will also accept them - not sure about obligation though. Alansplodge (talk) 11:22, 31 July 2019 (UTC)

Correction, apologies for any confusion! Exchange bureaux policies may vary between companies and/or have local differences. The face value of the notes is still the same, however. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:37, 31 July 2019 (UTC)

They have the familiarity and resources to ensure they will not get stuck with a dud and don't have to worry about merchants refusing them.--Wehwalt (talk) 11:33, 31 July 2019 (UTC)

Although not exactly the same thing, a number of mostly small countries and territories use the U.S. dollar as their own currency, or peg their own currency to it. See article for list. --47.146.63.87 (talk) 23:47, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

A recent visit to Guernsey yielded a different kind of pound note. DOR (HK) (talk) 07:57, 31 July 2019 (UTC)

Jersey, the Isle of Man, Gibraltar, St Helena and the Falkland Islands also issue currency notes in pounds. I would not advise trying to exchange them outside the place in question. When I went to the Falklands on a cruise ship in 2016, I brought a sum of sterling with me, all in five-pound notes. I didn't mind taking away local coins (they would, in a pinch, likely pass without comment in the UK) but banknotes would have been more than I cared to have.--Wehwalt (talk) 08:20, 31 July 2019 (UTC)